Dollar General Proposes Springfield Location
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Springfield-Dollar-General/i-6mhW6B6/0/79244308/L/Screen%20Shot%202018-03-24%20at%207.03.41%20PM-L.png)
Long vacant site along struggling commercial corridor in Historic Springfield is the location for a proposed Dollar General store.
Read More: https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2018-mar-dollar-general-proposes-springfield-location
Funny how a company that makes 1/20th of the revenue is better at integrating into an urban environment with walkable access than Gate.
Dollar General was ranked #128 on the Fortune 500 list in 2017 with $23.5 billion in sales. Gate is peanuts in comparison. With that said, DG has improved at integrating their footprint into urban areas. Gate can as well. We just need to be capable of demanding better.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2018, 10:09:59 PM
Dollar General was ranked #128 on the Fortune 500 list in 2017 with $23.5 billion in sales. Gate is peanuts in comparison. With that said, DG has improved at integrating their footprint into urban areas. Gate can as well. We just need to be capable of demanding better.
Well, this is embarrassing... I switched the numbers. My bad, folks.
If it's similar to the Charleston or New Orleans stores I'm ok with it. Don't like the Tallahassee store so much.
I do like that if they have one completely blank wall it's against the alley. I don't love the parking lot on the corner though.
Quote from: avonjax on March 26, 2018, 07:15:41 AM
If it's similar to the Charleston or New Orleans stores I'm ok with it. Don't like the Tallahassee store so much.
That Tallahassee store looks just like a typical Dollar General. Charleston is only slightly better. It looks like the New Orleans one has windows all down one side (with crepe myrtle planted in front), but the Springfield design only has a few windows on the Silver street side.
This is a solid project for Springfield. Could use more windows and the parking lot could be in the back like previous posters suggested but it's the nicest looking and most "urban" dollar general I've ever seen.
The impression I got at the most recent SPAR quarterly meeting was that the vast majority of people are vehemently opposed to this project and that they would voice their opposition at every opportunity. I recently moved to Springfield (albiet nearly a mile from the proposed site), and I'm undecided at this point. I understand that the homeowners around the proposed site would rather have a more "upscale" project, but I'm not sure that having an empty lot is better in the meantime.
I'm not sure opposing it because it's Dollar General instead of Trader Joes is going to be successful. What are the technical issues related to the land use, zoning and site layout that don't fit with the area and if these things were improved, would opposition go away?
There was an article not too long ago about the DGX urban concept they've been popping up lately. Could that maybe get a better reception?
And what would an example of "more upscale" look like? Walgreens? CVS? Someone mentioned Trader Joe's, would it be that?
The construction type and general site layout would probably be the same, regardless of retailer. Doubt you'd get a DGX there. That specific site and context doesn't match any of the DGX locations. If a DGX came to Jax, it would likely end up in a Northbank storefront space, moreso than a stand alone location with low foot traffic on West 8th Street. Nevertheless, despite what some may think locally, Dollar General is pretty popular nationwide with the millennial crowd.
Yea, you don't get to pick the brand when going through requirements. If hypothetically you'd approve that exact same footprint for Tiffany's, then you'd have to approve it for Dollar General.
$450,000 for a one acre site on 8th Street. Surrounded by nothing.
That's good comp for the properties PETRA is listing on Main Street.
And a lot of money. WOW
Quote from: thelakelander on March 27, 2018, 10:36:25 AM
I'm not sure opposing it because it's Dollar General instead of Trader Joes is going to be successful. What are the technical issues related to the land use, zoning and site layout that don't fit with the area and if these things were improved, would opposition go away?
Two issues:
1) The site plan doesn't respect the Historic District guidelines. Has parking in front/on the corner with little building frontwfe alomg 8th, and in the middle of the block. The building should be anchored at the corner of 8th & Silver with the building orientated horizontally along 8th Street, parking in the back & sides. This would support the walkable, pedestrain-friendly scale & design of the neighborhood, as detailed in the histiric district guidelines. The materials & finishes of the building itself are likely to be fine.
2) People just don't want a crappy business there that doesn't maintain its property, generates a lot of litter, and attracts/doesn't repell panhandlers & loiterers. There's a dollar store near by at State & Market that's awful, there's others close to Springfield that seem to be more of a negative than positive. So, residents naturally have very low expectations for how it would operate.
Everyone (well, most) realizes that #1 Is the only argument that matters.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on March 27, 2018, 07:09:32 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 27, 2018, 10:36:25 AM
I'm not sure opposing it because it's Dollar General instead of Trader Joes is going to be successful. What are the technical issues related to the land use, zoning and site layout that don't fit with the area and if these things were improved, would opposition go away?
Two issues:
1) The site plan doesn't respect the Historic District guidelines. Has parking in front/on the corner with little building frontage along 8th, and in the middle of the block. The building should be anchored at the corner of 8th & Silver with the building orientated horizontally along 8th Street, parking in the back & sides. This would support the walkable, pedestrain-friendly scale & design of the neighborhood, as detailed in the histiric district guidelines. The materials & finishes of the building itself are likely to be fine.
2) People just don't want a crappy business there that doesn't maintain its property, generates a lot of litter, and attracts/doesn't repell panhandlers & loiterers. There's a dollar store near by at State & Market that's awful, there's others close to Springfield that seem to be more of a negative than positive. So, residents naturally have very low expectations for how it would operate.
QuoteTwo issues:
1) The site plan doesn't respect the Historic District guidelines. Has parking in front/on the corner with little building frontage along 8th, and in the middle of the block. The building should be anchored at the corner of 8th & Silver with the building orientated horizontally along 8th Street, parking in the back & sides. This would support the walkable, pedestrain-friendly scale & design of the neighborhood, as detailed in the histiric district guidelines. The materials & finishes of the building itself are likely to be fine.
What's the developer's opposition to this? I agree that a corner location would be better. Do the residents living on Silver feel the same way?
Quote2) People just don't want a crappy business there that doesn't maintain its property, generates a lot of litter, and attracts/doesn't repell panhandlers & loiterers. There's a dollar store near by at State & Market that's awful, there's others close to Springfield that seem to be more of a negative than positive. So, residents naturally have very low expectations for how it would operate.
That's a Family Dollar. Totally different retailer. Are there examples of Dollar Generals in the area that don't maintain their property or repell panhandlers & loiterers?
Quote from: Steve on March 27, 2018, 03:40:22 PM
Yea, you don't get to pick the brand when going through requirements. If hypothetically you'd approve that exact same footprint for Tiffany's, then you'd have to approve it for Dollar General.
[/quoteQuote from: Steve on March 27, 2018, 03:40:22 PM
Yea, you don't get to pick the brand when going through requirements. If hypothetically you'd approve that exact same footprint for Tiffany's, then you'd have to approve it for Dollar General.
I have faith that the springfield community can band together and stop this horrible development, its a whole foods or nothing.
Then they will sit around whine and complain that no one wants to invest in there neighborhood!!
Quote from: thelakelander on March 27, 2018, 07:31:15 PM
QuoteTwo issues:
1) The site plan doesn't respect the Historic District guidelines. Has parking in front/on the corner with little building frontage along 8th, and in the middle of the block. The building should be anchored at the corner of 8th & Silver with the building orientated horizontally along 8th Street, parking in the back & sides. This would support the walkable, pedestrain-friendly scale & design of the neighborhood, as detailed in the histiric district guidelines. The materials & finishes of the building itself are likely to be fine.
What's the developer's opposition to this? I agree that a corner location would be better. Do the residents living on Silver feel the same way?
Quote2) People just don't want a crappy business there that doesn't maintain its property, generates a lot of litter, and attracts/doesn't repell panhandlers & loiterers. There's a dollar store near by at State & Market that's awful, there's others close to Springfield that seem to be more of a negative than positive. So, residents naturally have very low expectations for how it would operate.
That's a Family Dollar. Totally different retailer. Are there examples of Dollar Generals in the area that don't maintain their property or repell panhandlers & loiterers?
The developer has since presented 2 alternative site plans, submitted at the OOA hearing, including a smaller 7500 square ft building anchored at the corner of 8th & Silver. They made it clear it was feasible, but their last choice.
I couldn't say re: other Dollar Generals. The only dollar stores located in the urbancore of Jax are Family Dollar.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on March 27, 2018, 07:11:05 PM
Quote from: Bill Hoff on March 27, 2018, 07:09:32 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 27, 2018, 10:36:25 AM
I'm not sure opposing it because it's Dollar General instead of Trader Joes is going to be successful. What are the technical issues related to the land use, zoning and site layout that don't fit with the area and if these things were improved, would opposition go away?
Two issues:
1) The site plan doesn't respect the Historic District guidelines. Has parking in front/on the corner with little building frontage along 8th, and in the middle of the block. The building should be anchored at the corner of 8th & Silver with the building orientated horizontally along 8th Street, parking in the back & sides. This would support the walkable, pedestrain-friendly scale & design of the neighborhood, as detailed in the histiric district guidelines. The materials & finishes of the building itself are likely to be fine.
2) People just don't want a crappy business there that doesn't maintain its property, generates a lot of litter, and attracts/doesn't repell panhandlers & loiterers. There's a dollar store near by at State & Market that's awful, there's others close to Springfield that seem to be more of a negative than positive. So, residents naturally have very low expectations for how it would operate.
There are four dollar generals between my home and where I work. None of them are trashy or ill maintained. They do seem to be busy and provide a needed service to there community. That being said I have developed my own rule of thumb in judging a neighborhood. Its the "dollar general rule" If the dollar general is neat clean and orderly you can pretty much bet its a nice safe neighborhood. If its absolute chaos inside with crap strowed everywhere with a general feeling of disorder, I doubt that is a neighborhood you want to be in after the sun goes down.
I doubt if the employees and managers are strowing trash around the building. As far as the bum and loiterers, never saw any of them at a DG or family dollar, maybe the neighborhood has some problems that need addressing?
Upshot these stores do not create the problems, the neighborhood brings them there.
Quote from: civil42806 on April 01, 2018, 10:09:24 AM
There are four dollar generals between my home and where I work. None of them are trashy or ill maintained. They do seem to be busy and provide a needed service to there community. That being said I have developed my own rule of thumb in judging a neighborhood. Its the "dollar general rule" If the dollar general is neat clean and orderly you can pretty much bet its a nice safe neighborhood. If its absolute chaos inside with crap strowed everywhere with a general feeling of disorder, I doubt that is a neighborhood you want to be in after the sun goes down.
I doubt if the employees and managers are strowing trash around the building. As far as the bum and loiterers, never saw any of them at a DG or family dollar, maybe the neighborhood has some problems that need addressing?
Upshot these stores do not create the problems, the neighborhood brings them there.
Woah, there! Declaring the source of socioeconomic woes to be the result of various human failures and political decisions that created undesirable communities filled with people struggling to survive and finding little hope in future improvement, instead of blaming it on a single store or corporation? That's some radical talk!
Quote from: civil42806 on April 01, 2018, 10:09:24 AM
Quote from: Bill Hoff on March 27, 2018, 07:11:05 PM
Quote from: Bill Hoff on March 27, 2018, 07:09:32 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 27, 2018, 10:36:25 AM
I'm not sure opposing it because it's Dollar General instead of Trader Joes is going to be successful. What are the technical issues related to the land use, zoning and site layout that don't fit with the area and if these things were improved, would opposition go away?
Two issues:
1) The site plan doesn't respect the Historic District guidelines. Has parking in front/on the corner with little building frontage along 8th, and in the middle of the block. The building should be anchored at the corner of 8th & Silver with the building orientated horizontally along 8th Street, parking in the back & sides. This would support the walkable, pedestrain-friendly scale & design of the neighborhood, as detailed in the histiric district guidelines. The materials & finishes of the building itself are likely to be fine.
2) People just don't want a crappy business there that doesn't maintain its property, generates a lot of litter, and attracts/doesn't repell panhandlers & loiterers. There's a dollar store near by at State & Market that's awful, there's others close to Springfield that seem to be more of a negative than positive. So, residents naturally have very low expectations for how it would operate.
There are four dollar generals between my home and where I work. None of them are trashy or ill maintained. They do seem to be busy and provide a needed service to there community. That being said I have developed my own rule of thumb in judging a neighborhood. Its the "dollar general rule" If the dollar general is neat clean and orderly you can pretty much bet its a nice safe neighborhood. If its absolute chaos inside with crap strowed everywhere with a general feeling of disorder, I doubt that is a neighborhood you want to be in after the sun goes down.
I doubt if the employees and managers are strowing trash around the building. As far as the bum and loiterers, never saw any of them at a DG or family dollar, maybe the neighborhood has some problems that need addressing?
Upshot these stores do not create the problems, the neighborhood brings them there.
I like that perspective but I have an anomaly of a Dollar General near my home in Mandarin. It's in one of the strip malls just north of I-295 and Old St Augustine Rd. The Dollar General has always been crap for as long as I've been in Mandarin. The store is filled with junk and you can't find anything and yet people still shop there. It's in an older shopping center but has a couple of great restaurants next door and in an area of town that I consider safe. Badly maintained businesses can pop up anywhere.
Fyi - the Dollar General proposal has been withdrawn.
They & Councilman Gaffney recieved A LOT of flak from residents during a public meeting about the project in May, and have officially decided to look elsewhere.
I know they were looking near 8th & Phoenix also, hopefully that works out for them.
Why can't developers just make their initial proposal compliant with documented regulations and just avoid that whole part of the debacle?
Quote from: Kerry on July 10, 2018, 10:16:33 PM
Why can't developers just make their initial proposal compliant with documented regulations and just avoid that whole part of the debacle?
Because it's much cheaper to try to get through a building that's already been designed and tested in the market.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on July 10, 2018, 03:38:45 PM
Fyi - the Dollar General proposal has been withdrawn.
They & Councilman Gaffney recieved A LOT of flak from residents during a public meeting about the project in May, and have officially decided to look elsewhere.
I know they were looking near 8th & Phoenix also, hopefully that works out for them.
The selected site wasn't ideal for what they wanted to do (plus nothing about Dollar General screams "neighborhood moving forward" (I realize this isn't an argument that can be codified, but in terms of the Public Opinion it's not a popular brand that most neighborhoods are clamoring for). I get why they tried, but I'm glad that the Springfield folks stood up and argued this one.