Metro Jacksonville

We've all heard the crying, dumb ideas, bad projects, and knuckle-head graft... If you could think of your own list of the 10 worst transportation decisions ever made in Jacksonville, what would they be?

1. Closing of Union Terminal as a railroad passenger station - then allowing the Prime to be built there.
2. Abandonment of the entire Jacksonville Traction Company streetcar system.
3. Building the Skyway rather then light rail
4. Not finishing the Skyway leaving it crippled for life
5. Preservation of the of the original Acosta Bridge or Fuller Warren in whole or part as park space.
6. Failure to buy the FEC RY to the beach along Beach Blvd. and hence Mayport as proposed to the City.
7. Turning down British Air on a new international route, keeping JIA a tiny aerodrome.
8. Failure to complete the Hart Expressway all the way to JTB
9. Failure to finish the interchange or MLK-Haines St. Expy, or to reach Talleyrand with the same.
10. Proposing to spend more on BRT, just another name for the city bus, then 26 miles of monorail or streetcar would cost.

THAT'S MY LIST! What's yours?  

OCKLAWAHA

1. Elimination of streetcar system (first move that led to low density development)

2. The Jacksonville Expressway System layout (eliminated connectivity in the old urban core)

3. Timuquana bridge or tunnel (should have found a way to get this one built decades ago)

4. The Dames Point Bridge structure (handicaps port)

5. Prime Osborn Convention Center/Union Terminal (this place should have remained a train station)

6. Elimination of typical street grid layout for arterial road system and cul-de-sac subdivisions.

7. Paving over rail to make Beach Blvd. (could have had a stronger connection between the beach and downtown)

8. Hart Bridge Expressway (should have taken it, at least on to Southside Blvd.  This is our road version of the Skyway)

9. The Skyway (could have had light rail from downtown to airport for the same cost)

10. Demolition of old Acosta/Fuller Warren Bridges (both could have been an excellent structures for cycling, pedestrian and mass transit use)

I would also add the Downtown traffic loop network to the list.  Because of this, our downtown is one of the few big city cores that does not have a traditional Main Street commercial corridor running through it.

I cannot think of 10 because all of the good ones are taken.  I just wanted to comment that the Hart Bridge Expressway statements by both of you are spot on.  I used to take it downtown to work every day.  I always thought it was a fantastic road that amazingly a lot of people seem to not use or fully appreciate, but it should have been extended at least to Southside.  I never knew there was a potential or a plan to have it run all the way to JTB, but that would have been pretty great.  Also, severing Springfield from Downtown with the way State and Union are used is pretty bad.  If the Warehouse district expanding Northward ever took off, I think not extending Wonderwood over the river would be on a future list of this sort.

They should have extended the Hart Bridge Expressway for sure. Also, they should change the name to Jaguar Freeway, since it dumps traffic right at the stadium. Hart Bridge Expressway just seems so bland and boring. I wish Jax would name more of its freeways.

I think another thing that goes unnoticed is the lack of adequate planning for the Orange Park area. All of the development there can essentially only be accessed by two roads: US 17 and Blanding. They should have had a better layout before allowing all of that development down there.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 15, 2008, 12:55:03 PM
We've all heard the crying, dumb ideas, bad projects, and knuckle-head graft... If you could think of your own list of the 10 worst transportation decisions ever made in Jacksonville, what would they be?

1. Closing of Union Terminal as a railroad passenger station - then allowing the Prime to be built there.
2. Abandonment of the entire Jacksonville Traction Company streetcar system.
3. Building the Skyway rather then light rail
4. Not finishing the Skyway leaving it crippled for life
5. Preservation of the of the original Acosta Bridge or Fuller Warren in whole or part as park space.
6. Failure to buy the FEC RY to the beach along Beach Blvd. and hence Mayport as proposed to the City.
7. Turning down British Air on a new international route, keeping JIA a tiny aerodrome.
8. Failure to complete the Hart Expressway all the way to JTB
9. Failure to finish the interchange or MLK-Haines St. Expy, or to reach Talleyrand with the same.
10. Proposing to spend more on BRT, just another name for the city bus, then 26 miles of monorail or streetcar would cost.

THAT'S MY LIST! What's yours?
OCKLAWAHA

Am familiar with most of these, and don't disagree ... but #6 and #7?
#6 (also thelakelander's #7) When the JM&P (FEC to the Beach) went out of business, who was it offered for sale to?
#7  When did British Air offer a direct flight to JIA?  I've never heard this (not surprising, Ock knows all)  Was it a local, or a US Customs, decision not to provide service here?

We talk about the "footprint" of transportation a lot here - even lake's #2 (Jax Expressway cut off connectivity) addresses this.  The new Acosta Bridge was built on top of the location of the old one.  Preserving the Old Acosta, it seems it would have caused a wider impact on the north and southbanks.  Goodbye CSX parking lot.  Goodbye River City Brewing.  Would have to go downstream, as the FECRR bridge is upstream.  The Fuller Warren, yeah, the City should've accepted the little piece left as a public pier.

While visiting the skyway yard last week, the amount of land wasted under the Acosta Bridge ramps really stands out.  Regarding footprint, I think that's just it.  If we had set up a comprehensive vision that could survive through mayoral administration changes, what's to say the new Acosta had to be built exactly on top of the old one?  If we really thought about walkability, would we still have built the insane number of ramps where the Acosta meets Riverside Avenue? 

So assuming we valued urban planning as much as highway planning, CSX's parking needs could have been figured out (perhaps a combination of garage and under bridge parking) and a new bridge could have been designed.  Instead of being a straight line, it could have ran immediately to the north and shifted back over the old (current) path once it reached the Southbank, if there was no interest in improving the River City Brewing site.

As for Beach, it would be a great asset to have a rail link directly connecting Downtown with Jax Beach today.  Its something would have made the Southside more sustainable from the start.  We had that at one time.  If we wanted it today, it would cost us a couple of billion dollars.  This is why I'd have to put it somewhere in my top 10 list.

QuoteAm familiar with most of these, and don't disagree ... but #6 and #7?
#6 (also thelakelander's #7) When the JM&P (FEC to the Beach) went out of business, who was it offered for sale to?
#7  When did British Air offer a direct flight to JIA?  I've never heard this (not surprising, Ock knows all)  Was it a local, or a US Customs, decision not to provide service here?

Here's the skinny on the two weird deals:  

Wasn't the JM&P that was offered, the JM&P was the hard luck standard gauge road that ran from Arlington to Hanna Park, then North and South to Mayport and Pablo Beach. It didn't survive beyond early 1900. The Jacksonville and Atlantic J&A, was a wealthy little narrow gauge line that went straight down what is today the North side of Beach Blvd. It was so ingrained in the City that most of our names come from it! Hodges Bl? Hodges Station. Saint Nicholas? etc... It was sold to Flagler and turned into a standard gauge sub-division of the Florida East Coast. At Jax Beach museum, the train (while not from this railroad) sits ON the railroad, this is why the side road angles like it does. After FEC switched to oil burning steam locomotives, they no longer needed the old coal docks at Mayport. Traffic on the line crashed, and the new road killed most passenger business. The railroad FEC offered it to the City through a deal outlined by City Commisisioner St. Elmo Acosta, who wanted to convert it to an electric interurban extension of Jacksonville Traction.

BA was going to add a tri-weekly flight to Tampa with a first stop in JACKSONVILLE. Jacksonville is the US HQ and call center for the company and they wanted to make it easy to shuttle people back and forth. JIA wasn't done playing with the terminals and didn't want to bend to allow their new entry. There was also a squabble over runway length, as BA wanted to fly a big jet out of here and didn't like the 8,000 and 10,000 foot combination for a full fuel load take off. Only one runway would have been usable making for tricky landings when the wind shifts. JIA-JAA went deaf and the deal died. The flight survives however - NON-STOP from London to Tampa. We blew it. Oh and now SW Florida Intl, AND the new Panama City Intl, are both being offered a host of international flights. Perhaps our guys can't see the sun from the position of their heads?  

OCKLAWAHA

I know we could have done better than the skyway with the money but wasn't the federal money only on the table for the skyway project?

For that particular project.  However, back in those days cities could take interstate money and shift it to rail, if they wanted to.  This is how Portland got their light rail system off the ground.

Moving the train station was in my opinion the number one blunder.  I agree with most of what the others had to say.  One other thing that bugs me (probably doesn't qualify)  is the decision to build the Dames Point without the pedestrian walkways.  That would have been awesome.  Also the Dames Point should have been about 50' or more higher.

Wow, you only named 2 but they could count as all 5 each of the worst decisions. Dames Point was nearly a revolution led by a tiny supermarket owner activist in MANDARIN. I used to shop there but "Joe Curry" and I would lock horns on the bridge. He put the city through hell and back to get it done and had quite an army of followers. Walks or Bikeways on that thing would be amazing!

Union Station - was the worst #1 disaster ever.

OCKLAWAHA

10 Too many one way streets downtown.
9 Not including full clover leaf exits from 295 to Blanding, 17, San Jose and Old St. Augustine rd.
8 Making Union and State practical freeways.
7 Making Main Street a practical freeway.
6 Building the skyway.
5 Not completing the skyway.
4 Converting Union Station into a Convention center.
3 Building the Dames point to low or not making it a tunnel.
2 Not building the timmaquana to jtb bridge.
1 Dismantling the Streetcar system.

10-The I-10/95 Merger
9- The Route Chosen to develop the Jacksonville Expressway / I-95 practically dividing the City and causing the needless demolition of much of it.
8- No Bridge from Timiquana to JTB...so We either Loop North then South or South then North to get from Ortega to the Beaches
7- Not completing the Skyway ,since it was elected to be built. Can I just mention its unsightliness along Hogan to the Station which now Dead-ends Hogan@ Union.
6- Building the Skyway , never intending to finish it.
5- Total demolition of the first thoroughfare drawbridge crossing the River into Downtown, and instead of using the center span as a piece in a Park, spending a hell of alot more money to take it out and litter the Ocean with it.
4-Parking Meters, Surface Parking and One-way streets in Downtown.
3-Doing away with Union Station as a Train Terminal and sealing the underground Tunnels. STUPID.
2-Putting an Amtrak Station in a really Sketchy Area of Jacksonville
1-Doing away with most every other means of transportation in the city, other than that with rubber tires and Fuel-Powered. (With the exception of the Skyway which really covers very little of the city, in the big picture)

Don't forget a few more candidates:

(1) Giving JTA responsibility for both roads and mass transit
(2) Building the original JIA in 1968 on the cheap, letting Atlanta and Tampa blow by us in air connections to be followed by Orlando and Charlotte.
(3) Letting half of Blount Island get sold to Offshore Power Systems for $1 preventing its inclusion in the port's infrastructure and then watching Herb Peyton sell it to the Marines for over $100 million forever removing it from the port's control.
(4) Failing to get direct interstate connections to Atlanta and/or Gainesville/Tampa
(5) Not making the Fuller Warren replacement a "signature" bridge
(6) Not building 9A with at least 6 lanes (if not 8 lanes)
(7)The JTB/I95 interchange and surrounding JTB exits.
(8 ) Failure to provide adequate bike and pedestrian pathways
(9)Not building a downtown cruise terminal (even if for smaller intracoastal "cruise" ships).
(10) Failure to buy adequate land for Craig Field to buffer it from residential encroachment.
(11) The junction of the Arlington Expressway, Atlantic Blvd., and Southside Boulevards.

How about adding to the list additional disasters in the making:
(1) The proposed JTA intermodal center
(2) The Outer Beltway
(3) BRT
(4) 9B

Maybe we should add letting the Mandarin miniature train go out of business   ;).

I agree with most of the rest of the items listed above.  The negative impacts of the Skyway and the location/elevation of the Dames Point Bridge were both predicted by critics which makes these decisions guilty with aggravating circumstances.  Failure to build full cloverleafs for all our interstate interchanges or at least stockpile land to add them later when growth comes is just plain boneheaded too.  Now, we have tens of thousands of cars waiting at traffic lights.

Do we ever learn?

Quote from: Timkin on July 15, 2010, 07:44:08 PM

10-The I-10/95 Merger
9- The Route Chosen to develop the Jacksonville Expressway / I-95 practically dividing the City and causing the needless demolition of much of it.
8- No Bridge from Timiquana to JTB...so We either Loop North then South or South then North to get from Ortega to the Beaches
7- Not completing the Skyway ,since it was elected to be built. Can I just mention its unsighlitness along Hogan to the Station which now Dead-ends Hogan@ Union.
6- Building the Skyway , never intending to finish it.
5- Total demolition of the first thoroughfare drawbridge crossing the River into Downtown, and instead of using the center span as a piece in a Park, spending a hell of alot more money to take it out and litter the Ocean with it.
4-Parking Meters, Surface Parking and One-way streets in Downtown.
3-Doing away with Union Station as a Train Terminal and sealing the underground Tunnels. STUPID.
2-Putting an Amtrak Station in a really Sketchy Area of Jacksonville
1-Doing away with most every other means of transportation in the city, other than that with rubber tires and Fuel-Powered. (With the exception of the Skyway which really covers very little of the city, in the big picture)

I love your Top 10 --- especially #2!  I like to take the train, but I believe that our current Amtrak station is a dump!

We refer to it as Amshack

My top ten are listed in no particular order...
1. It was a royal mistake to move the Amtrak station from downtown to the current location on Clifford Lane.  It is in a shady side of town with little to offer for travelers.  It makes for a lousy first impression of Jacksonville.  
2. The Skyway was an overrated solution to our transit woes.  I remember when the naysayers were criticized for impeding 'progress.'  I admit that I bought into the hype, but was ultimately disappointed by how the city lacked the follow through to make the Skyway go anywhere.
3. I recall reading that the Hart (Commodore Point) Expressway was intended to reach J. Turner Butler Boulevard, but Arlington businessmen were opposed to the competition.  They wanted to funnel traffic down the Arlington Expressway and felt that another quick route to the Beaches would hurt their businesses.
4. The Dames Point bridge was built too low.  I am sure that it was either a matter of being stingy, short-sighted, or both.
5. The State of Florida withdrew funding from the Mayport Ferry, which is a segment of S.R. A1A.
6. Arlington Expressway, Southside Boulevard and Atlantic Boulevard merge into a traffic hell.  Throw in the Monument Road intersection and it gets even worse.
7. Beach Boulevard would have been ideal for a rail line to the Beaches.  Too bad that nobody planned for that and allowed the right-of-way to become yet another traffic-clogged road.
8. The end of the streetcar system in Jacksonville, and also our obsession with mislabeling potato chip vans as 'trolleys.'
9. Jacksonville International Airport.  The city got into the airport business a day late and a dollar short when compared to Atlanta.  And the city has apparently bungled opportunities to make the 'International' part actually mean something.
10. Why is there no Interstate route to directly connect us with Tampa and/or Atlanta?  I'll up the ante here.  Why doesn't Interstate 10 continue to the Beaches?

Quote from: JeffreyS on July 15, 2010, 08:44:14 PM
We refer to it as Amshack

You know about the Amshack meme?  Awesome!  It's time that Jacksonville gets on board and moves us out of that Amshack!

Thats one train station they can tear down.

Quote from: Timkin on July 15, 2010, 09:49:19 PM
Thats one train station they can tear down.

I would not miss that place at all!

I forgot to include it in my top ten, but it is definitely a local transportation mistake (for both Duval AND Clay counties)....

BLANDING BOULEVARD!!!

Sheesh.. how could we all forget the Duval /Clay Superhighway blunder of the last 50 years ? :) good one Jaxson

Why is Blanding a mistake, just because it's heavily congested? I cannot think of any solutions for that. People seem to think was good for the burbs always equals bad for DT; Blanding Blvd was gonna happen anyway, no matter what with the growth of Orange Park.

Who knows, if some MJers have their way years ago, I could see "Streetcar to nowhere" being on this list. *rimshot*

Blanding is not a mistake simply because it is congested.  It is a mistake because some transportation planning could have prevented it from being so badly congested.
1. Firstly, Clay County is hurting because leaders and planners put all of their eggs into Blanding and U.S. 17 baskets.  Only two ways in and out of the Orange Park area?  Sure, we have Brannan Field Road, but it is not of practical use for many who live around the Town of Orange Park and adjacent areas.
2. Secondly, Blanding Boulevard is stop and go because it is chock full of driveways that connect to a plethora of shopping centers, strip malls and subdivisions.  I remember reading in the Clay Today back in the 1990s an article bemoaning this situation.  Today, we often in Clay County refer to working on future roads as wanting to avoid another 'Blanding.'
3. Growth is inevitable, as I have learned since moving to the Orange Park area in 1979.  The traffic jams and sprawl, however, could have been prevented with some foresight.  That is why I refer to Blanding as a mistake. 

Blanding Blvd. is at full capacity.. To widen it any more, would require taking down much of the business on either side of the Road.  Double-Deckering does not seem feasible.  As Jaxson mentioned its a start-stop-start-stop nightmare , particularly into the Orange Park Area. Not sure how it can be relieved any. Thats why I call it a nightmare.  As to the Streetcar to nowhere....Don't see that anytime in the near-future on Blanding..

Another reason why Blanding is a major transportation mistake is because it is not very pedestrian friendly.  It is ideal for getting people in and out of this bedroom community, but very difficult for someone to try to walk around to perform basic errands. 

I also might add that Blanding is an example of how regional transportation planning could have prevented such a mess from happening.  Current and future solutions seem to be only a bandage for a gaping wound in our transportation infrastructure.  But, hindsight is better than 20/20.  There was money to be made from the willy-nilly development of Clay County...

As a somewhat newcomer to the greater Jacksonville area, I read this with some chuckles.

I don't dispute there were some oversights, but some of these just couldn't be for-seen.

- Anything railroad based. Guys, I love rails as much as anyone, but rail was dying everywhere. Short lines could no longer be run profitably and passenger rail was losing money big time. There was no politics in NE Florida supporting tax based subsidies back then. Today yes, then no. Highways were it and that is where the money was going, period. If someone back when FEC ran the line to the Beaches said, "hey, you are going to need this in 50 years, so buy it now" when everything east of East Street and Hogan Road was basically a forest and one flashing stop light, they probably thought he was nuts. Short sighted, perhaps, but the right call at the time.

Relying solely on autos is a detriment around here, of that I agree, but it is nowhere near as bad as people think.  Actually, as someone coming from the outside, JTA has done well at getting the roads built. Now I can't say they are planned all that well all the time, but compared to most cities, "getting around" in Jacksonville is not as bad as one seems. There are many places that have routes much worse than the Blanding corridor, and when I have driven the route, it seems a minor issue overall.

Dames Point Bridge. My guess is that when it was built with a 150' clearance over a 42' channel, they had no indication that cruise ships of the future were going to need 165' clearance and 50' drafts to make port, let alone the Panamax ships. While I would love it if cruise ships could call near the downtown, there is no way anyone could have predicted this in 1986.

The BA Flight problem at JIA. There was a period in the US where there were strict rules on how non-US airlines could originate/land. Also, you mentioned they wanted to do a domestic "jump". Many countries do not allow non-domestic airlines to perform a what could be considered a local flight without some sort of concession from the host airport performing the jump, in this case JIA. Lufthansa had to get special permission to originate a flight from Cape Town to Munich with a jump stop in Johannesburg.  I can't see JIA allowing someone to tie up a gate, require an extended runway, where most people don't deplane (and spend $ in the terminal) and if it was a 747 or A380, probably wouldn't even need to refuel to get to Tampa (so no sales tax on fuel). What was in it for JIA? An expensive runway addition, a jumbo capable gate for flights that provide very little by way of revenue. Sounds like a no brainer to me.

Ending Hart Expwy at Beach, strategic error by far, put politics played a heavy part in blocking it to JTB. They can still overcome it by linking it to Southside someday.

Quote from: spuwho on July 16, 2010, 12:51:48 AM
Dames Point Bridge. My guess is that when it was built with a 150' clearance over a 42' channel, they had no indication that cruise ships of the future were going to need 165' clearance and 50' drafts to make port, let alone the Panamax ships. While I would love it if cruise ships could call near the downtown, there is no way anyone could have predicted this in 1986.

Spuwho, you "guess" totally wrong here.  It was predicted by many that the span would be too low.  By port users, the then very active and major employer, Jacksonville Shipyards, Inc., and other bridge critics.  Cruise and cargo (especially container) ships have been trending ever larger for at least 40 years and the trend was obvious when this bridge was planned.  In fact, at the time it was built, there already were ships that could not clear it.

By the way, the bridge was also criticized for having at least one of its support towers in a precarious spot at a turn in the river channel where the current is strong, the river narrows, and large ships have a tricky turning radius to navigate  Draft has no bearing on the bridge other than, I suppose, taller ships correlate with deeper drafts.

The fact is the height was lowered to save dollars to keep the bridge financially feasible as it was to be paid by tolls.  If it were to cost too much, the bridge wouldn't have been built at that time.  Real estate speculators betting on the north shore were the reason behind the building of this bridge and nothing would stop them from seeing it built on the schedule they were banking on.  The port, bridge safety, etc. be damned.  That' s typical of how too many decisions get made in Jax.  Study almost any bad decision on these lists, and you will find that behind many of them.

By the way, this bridge was a JTA project.  Surprise, surprise.

       Here is one we actually managed to stop.For now at least.

 Related to the city entangled,horrific Freedom Commerce wetland development proposals 2001/2,prodded by an ardent Preservation Jacksonville grasp that sought from the Freedom Commerce developer Goodman Company a million dollar payment to the Plan and  'preserved' wetland acreage spared from wetlands to be developed added to the legacy.(Mayor Delaney Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, after stepping down from that office was hired as consultant by the developer.The fact that she was a card carrying Sierra Club member gave little benefit to the resource-enviros had to work against and around her)

                         *** Sunbeam Road extension,via wetland overpass ***

As was so often the case during that era,roadway proposal promoters and compliant public officials touted the extension "because DOT wants it".Questioning by this writer during  public meeting revealed Nocatee was assumed to be the "driver" behind traffic projections.

The proposal was dropped.This was a time of increasing disillusionment over obscure but then emerging Better Jacksonville transportation 'improvements' such as multiple intersection overpasses throughout the city.

The development order would state that only the developer would not pursue further overpasses or Sunbeam Road extension.
- N.M.

While I think not extending the Hart was shortsighted, I feel that the Hart's elevated spans adjacent to the stadium was an even worse decision.  That, coupled with the elevated span of the Arlington Expressway west of the Mathews, effectively killed off the Fairfield neighborhood.

Quote from: I-10east on July 15, 2010, 11:09:29 PM
Why is Blanding a mistake, just because it's heavily congested? I cannot think of any solutions for that. People seem to think was good for the burbs always equals bad for DT; Blanding Blvd was gonna happen anyway, no matter what with the growth of Orange Park.

Dead End wrong. It was not a matter of "if" growth,but rather one of how.I was centrally involved in key Clay 21 planning decisions in the early 80's.Giant mistakes were made-knowingly.

A Grand Jury report charged Clay County planning efforts were "Inept".

Here is a dandy:

1999

Permit application No. 199902775(IP-BL) & 1990288 (Ip-Bl)

Applicant:
Florida Department of Transportation
1636 Lake Jeffrey Road
Lake City,Fl 32205

Brannon/Chaffee  Clay,Duval County

The description of the project as "stand alone" was without merit aand misleading (was but a small leg of the acknowledged Beltway)

Assumptions and discussions of traffic congestion relief were erroneous

The applicant failed to adequately describe the total scope of development and secondary impacts

Mayor John Delaney lodged strong letter of support..........

Quote from: DemocraticNole on October 16, 2008, 01:22:58 AM
I wish Jax would name more of its freeways.

I agree with you.  Jacksonville was lax when it came to naming its major freeways.  We seem to be content with having the state legislature designate various roads in a piecemeal, helter skelter way.  I am not impressed with one roadway being named for five or six various people along its route.  I think that such designations actually diminish the honor.  IMHO, we would be better off naming an entire stretch of highway in someone's honor instead of putting up those little brown signs.  And, if we are so addicted to the legislature-designated honors on those brown signs, the least we could do is have a campaign to educate locals about who half of these people are/were.

It's seems like everyone hates Blanding's current state, but one has any solutions. I'll tell you what, don't build it, then 295 would be 10 times more congested. That would make alot of you happy. It's ridicious to think that every square inch of Jax gotta be an urban setting. Blanding is no different than MANY streets in America connecting the big city, and suburb. It's so damn easy to say "I told you so"; Then they do what you want, then something else goes wrong, and then another one says "I told you so". Nothing is perfect.  

Blanding itself isn't the reason for the gridlock on it.  The auto oriented sprawling land uses along it are the cause.  Also, you don't have to be "urban" to be sustainable.  With better land use regulations even a typical McDonald's drive thru can be transformed into something respectable that cuts down on automobile use.

IMO Blanding with it's current course, no matter what kinda setting (maybe besides rural) will be heavy congested, unless new roads are built parallel to Blanding (like US 17) to help relieve congestion. I guess people are okay with roads like Beach and Atlantic (with similar "sprawl" style setups like Blanding).

It's too late for Blanding.  More lanes and new roads will only make the problems worse if a building moratorium isn't a part of the plan.  The best solution for congestion relief would be something like commuter rail.  This would serve as a congestion alternative for residents willing to embrace alternative modes of transportation while encouraging sustainable development around its stops.  

Quote from: I-10east on July 16, 2010, 06:36:55 PM
It's seems like everyone hates Blanding's current state, but one has any solutions. I'll tell you what, don't build it, then 295 would be 10 times more congested. That would make alot of you happy. It's ridicious to think that every square inch of Jax gotta be an urban setting. Blanding is no different than MANY streets in America connecting the big city, and suburb. It's so damn easy to say "I told you so"; Then they do what you want, then something else goes wrong, and then another one says "I told you so". Nothing is perfect.   

I think that it is overly simplistic to shrug off all criticism of sprawl as utopian or unrealistic.  I think that the whole point of this thread is to point out past errors so that we can do better when planning future roads and transportation. 
As for thinking that every square inch of Jacksonville should be an 'urban' setting, I think that there is a place for urban, suburban and rural.  I, however, do not believe that 'suburban' has to be synonymous with 'gridlock.'  That is also a major theme on this thread. 
Where was I when they were originally planning Blanding Boulevard?  I was in elementary school.  Am I speaking out for smarter transportation options today?  Yes.
My motive is not out of some starry-eyed fantasy, but out of a sincere desire to improve the quality of life in the community - something that should appeal to most of us.

By the way, I don't think that we hae given up on Atlantic and Beach.  I personally take Wonderwood and can avoid Atlantic.  And, when I don't feel like takng Beach, I go dow JTB.  The lack of similar relief for Blanding is what irks me.

Connecting JTB to Hart Expressway would be on my wishlist.  :-[

Quote from: stjr on July 16, 2010, 01:34:17 AM
The fact is the height was lowered to save dollars to keep the bridge financially feasible as it was to be paid by tolls.  If it were to cost too much, the bridge wouldn't have been built at that time.  Real estate speculators betting on the north shore were the reason behind the building of this bridge and nothing would stop them from seeing it built on the schedule they were banking on.  The port, bridge safety, etc. be damned.  That' s typical of how too many decisions get made in Jax.  Study almost any bad decision on these lists, and you will find that behind many of them.

By the way, this bridge was a JTA project.  Surprise, surprise.[/b]

All bridges have compromises in scope, so while I may have "guessed wrong" in your eyes, the fact that it was finished at all I think is a positive thing in the eyes of the public. Costs, routing, heights, public good are all things that are weighed and measured when considering a large public works project such as the Dames Point Bridge. As I noted before, when all of those things were considered and debated, somewhere, somehow compromises must be made. Now the compromises may not meet your satisfaction in how they were achieved, but unfortunately a much wider audience had to be considered.

There is a recurring theme amongst these threads that seem to always blame some developer, investor or special interest in a development of some kind. All municipalities have their issues with "under the table" deals and it appears that Jacksonville is not immune.

However, if I was a city father and a developer (commercial, residential, doesn't matter) came to me with an idea to spend several million of his/her own money to create something that would enhance the community, add to the general tax base and still offer a decent profit to the creator, wouldn't it be prudent to sit down and listen? The one thing that is desirable is that the discussions take place in the open, however, if the developer doesn't want a competitor to know what they are working on with the city, wouldn't the city want to cooperate (up to a point) to make sure the deal works before submitting it for public review?

My perception is that the city fathers fall down in when they choose to reveal these schemes the developers cook up. This spreads a perception of mistrust and misdeed in execution. Keeping things in the "open" is always desirable, but there will always be the case of the Fuller Warren profiteering mentioned earlier, which is inexcusable.

Now if your issue is that the city fathers aren't listening to the right kinds of development offers, then that is a an issue that can be rectified come the next election. My perception is that Jacksonville doesn't stick with their plans, like a jilting bride, she is ready to jump into someone else's arms when the dollars signs are flashed in their face. When a government has a reputation of being exceptionally pliable, then every huckster is going to try and throw the dice and see what they can scrape off. But it goes both ways, COJ has screwed developers by not keeping their commitments, the Landing comes to mind.

Collective will towards a plan and then sticking with it over the duration is the problem with Jax. Blaming the developers for pursuing weak leaders is easy, but doesn't deal with the problem. Holding your elected leaders accountable will have more long term benefits.

The Skyway was built because some leader in Congress was able to get Jax on an appropriations for a demonstration project. Someone threw some dollars at the city and they jumped.

Someone wants to get some Obamacash to build a heavy rail transit in Jax. So here we are again. Do we just take the cash and do what it requires, or do we make it part of an overall, long term plan so that the public can see the benefits?

It's easy to cry conspiracy, when holding one accountable is much more effective but harder to do.

Quote from: spuwho on July 16, 2010, 12:51:48 AM
As a somewhat newcomer to the greater Jacksonville area, I read this with some chuckles.

I don't dispute there were some oversights, but some of these just couldn't be for-seen.

- Anything railroad based. Guys, I love rails as much as anyone, but rail was dying everywhere. Short lines could no longer be run profitably and passenger rail was losing money big time. There was no politics in NE Florida supporting tax based subsidies back then. Today yes, then no. Highways were it and that is where the money was going, period. If someone back when FEC ran the line to the Beaches said, "hey, you are going to need this in 50 years, so buy it now" when everything east of East Street and Hogan Road was basically a forest and one flashing stop light, they probably thought he was nuts. Short sighted, perhaps, but the right call at the time.

"Bad form, off target, no points scored!"

RAIL was NEVER dying anywhere, it was going through a reality check, eliminating duplicate mileage, cutting non productive branchlines, yards and junctions, reforming, rebuilding  and dumping money losing passenger trains. Like the change from buckboard wagons to 18 wheelers it could be perceived by a novice as "going away" but it's no more vanishing then a caterpillar in a cocoon.

St. Elmo Acosta DID SAY, "The beach branchline of the Florida East Coast is being abandoned and thus offers us supreme opportunity for a fast modern electric trolley service..."  His petition was shelved until a later meeting and so far I have not seen record that it ever surfaced again. This was around the time the streetcar system was sold-out to General Motors, Firestone, Greyhound, Phillips and Standard Oil. Within days of the proposal Acosta was ARRESTED for giving potato's to a poor woman. The potato's in question were city property!

QuoteRelying solely on autos is a detriment around here, of that I agree, but it is nowhere near as bad as people think.  Actually, as someone coming from the outside, JTA has done well at getting the roads built. Now I can't say they are planned all that well all the time, but compared to most cities, "getting around" in Jacksonville is not as bad as one seems. There are many places that have routes much worse than the Blanding corridor, and when I have driven the route, it seems a minor issue overall.

Actually Duval, Clay and St. Johns have traffic locations that rank among the worst 10-20 in the USA! Of those Orange Park residents rank as NUMBER ONE in Florida, and Blanding is NUMBER ONE in Orange Park! Trouble is it is not 100% a local planning problem, it IS a problem sent from GOD.  Notice that the Ortega River pinches ANY roadway that attempts to squeeze between 17 (Roosevelt) and 21 (Blanding) until the whole of the available land is found on the North end of Ortega. The Cedar River forms another brick in the wall causing the only clear access to Jacksonville from the South being WEST OF LANE or Old Middleburg. Anything short of FLYING highways or trains will have to contend with the waterways.

QuoteDames Point Bridge. My guess is that when it was built with a 150' clearance over a 42' channel, they had no indication that cruise ships of the future were going to need 165' clearance and 50' drafts to make port, let alone the Panamax ships. While I would love it if cruise ships could call near the downtown, there is no way anyone could have predicted this in 1986.

AIRLINE FREEDOMS are the result of international treaty and are granted on a per-named-freedom basis, this a list of the "freedoms" which you may never have heard about:
Freedom......Description.................................................................Example

1st    the right to fly over a foreign country, without landing there    Toronto - Mexico City, overflying the United States

2nd    the right to refuel or carry out maintenance in a foreign country on the way to another country    Toronto - Mexico City with a short-range aircraft that needs to be refuelled in the U.S.

3rd    the right to fly from one's own country to another    carrying passengers from Toronto to Chicago as a Canadian company

4th    the right to fly from another country to one's own    carrying passengers from Chicago to Toronto as a Canadian company

5th    the right to fly between two foreign countries during flights while the flight originates or ends in one's own country    a Canadian company flies from Toronto to Chicago, picks up passengers there, then continues to Mexico City

6th    the right to fly from a foreign country to another one while stopping in one's own country for non-technical reasons    a U.S. company flying passengers from Toronto to Mexico via Chicago

7th    the right to fly between two foreign countries while not offering flights to one's own country    a European airline that offers flights between Canada and the U.S. without offering any to Europe

8th    the right to fly between two or more airports in a foreign country while continuing service to one's own country    Cathay Pacific flights from Hong Kong to Penang via Kuala Lumpur

9th    the right to do traffic within a foreign country without continuing service to one's own country    all European airlines may use this right within the EU countries



As STJR has pointed out so well, this was WELL KNOWN and fought right down to the finish line by our PORT and a myrid of steamship lines. Even THEN we had hundreds of ships that could not clear that bridge, not to mention the long shots like the Navy returning to Green Cove Springs to really foul up the works. The bridge was delayed for years while dozens of lawsuits were fought out. The bridge bent (support) in the channel is an accident waiting to happen. FDOT, JTA, USN, JAXPORT, COJ, all dropped the ball and did this in such a way as to guarantee our port would always be an "also ran" among the giants of the industry.

QuoteThe BA Flight problem at JIA. There was a period in the US where there were strict rules on how non-US airlines could originate/land. Also, you mentioned they wanted to do a domestic "jump". Many countries do not allow non-domestic airlines to perform a what could be considered a local flight without some sort of concession from the host airport performing the jump, in this case JIA. Lufthansa had to get special permission to originate a flight from Cape Town to Munich with a jump stop in Johannesburg.  I can't see JIA allowing someone to tie up a gate, require an extended runway, where most people don't deplane (and spend $ in the terminal) and if it was a 747 or A380, probably wouldn't even need to refuel to get to Tampa (so no sales tax on fuel). What was in it for JIA? An expensive runway addition, a jumbo capable gate for flights that provide very little by way of revenue. Sounds like a no brainer to me.

JIA, JAXPORT and the COJ knew from the get-go that true international flights have a tremendous economic benefit. Like a major railroad passenger terminal a city of such services can expect rapid growth of connecting and ancillary services, growth begats growth. Besides that the new airline "freedoms" break all of the old rules and companies such as BA or Virgin Atlantic will attract all manner of local or regional support within their frameworks.  Some aspects of the "freedoms" are much older then even the jet age, bottom line? It was more like typical ignorance of the benefits of transportation that have kept JIA in the stone age. Who would have predicted that in the distant future Jacksonville would have fewer international flights then Melbourne or Sanford Florida? How about in 1920? 1950? 1970? 

QuoteEnding Hart Expwy at Beach, strategic error by far, put politics played a heavy part in blocking it to JTB. They can still overcome it by linking it to Southside someday.

This line is true, I would hope when that day comes to bite the bitter bullet, we not only FINISH the "Hart" Commodore Point Expressway to JTB, that we also bring down the viaducts across East Jacksonville.


OCKLAWAHA

Accountability has allways been an issue here, we are not alone in that aspect, but an overall vision appears to be lacking! More concrete is JTA's mantra, without taking into account the many aspects of any mass transit system. Intermodal is just what the name implies.......more than one link to another link to another link....bus and rail are just two slices of the pie but not the only ones! JTA does not need to have overall control over everything any more the FDOT! Both are governed by concrete philosophys and neither can see past their own noses.......I could point out shelters and the lack there of,  Transportation Centers that are needed like another leg, lack of planning  and on and on and on! Maybe it is past time to revamp, cut the waste and the jobs and get lean and mean with some kind of vision machine!

When compiling the list of the Grand Conspirators who conspired to choke off the port for the benefit of a road -  you must add the United States Coast Guard - they approved the height of the Dames Point Bridge.  As I recall, because of the USCG, it is taller than originally proposed.  Also, the USCG insisted the south pier be farther ashore on that island (Bartram? Quarantine?) than originally planned - a ship can still hit it, but would be pushing through bottom silt to get there.  (All of this - If I Remember Correctly   :) )

Ock, what does the Navy coming back to Green Cove Springs have to do with the height of the Dames Point?  If it were 300 feet tall, the Mathews and Commodore Point (Hart) are still around 140 - 150, shorter than the DP.

1. Airport Location....there is nothing in between airport & downtown...It would be better on the southside.

2. Unfinished Skyway system. 8 stations aint big city. It goes no where.

3. The missing 8th Bridge that connects Jtb & 103RD...man this brigde would clear up a lot of current traffic & future traffic.

4. Jta bus station...there should be 3 of these. 1 on each of the 3 sides of town....1 bus station for a city the size of Jax is terrible. One between downtown & airport will be a good spot.

Cooly -
If the airport were in the southside, one of two things would have happened - either all the residential development now there, would have gone to the northside; or the airport would be looking for a new location due to constant noise complaints.
The Timuquana/JTB bridge makes perfect transportation sense, but with Venetia/Ortega on the west end and San Jose/Epping Forest the east - it ain't gonna happen.

Unfortunately Charles is on the Mark... There should have been another Bridge Crossing somewhere in that Vicinity. It is probably More because of the San Jose /Epping Forest  Development  than  Ortega... I mean to Put the Bridge in on the West Bank would not take out all that much to impliment.... San Jose is another matter entirely.

Back in the 1960s, and 70s - when JTB was under construction, and the Timkin, er Timuquana Bridge idea came up - most of the Jax "old money" lived either in San Jose or Ortega, with a great deal of the old money in Ortega.  They had the juice to stop any consideration of a river crossing there.  The San Jose folks even stopped JTB from extending across the FEC to San Jose Blvd.

hehe  I caught that :D

Quote from: Coolyfett on July 17, 2010, 12:31:19 PM
4. Jta bus station...there should be 3 of these. 1 on each of the 3 sides of town....1 bus station for a city the size of Jax is terrible. One between downtown & airport will be a good spot.

why would you need one on the northside...you said "there's nothing between airport & downtown"  :)

And ....what are your other 6 choices for worst transportation decisions ? :)

The proposed bridge between Ortega and San Jose is one example of how it is difficult to plan ahead.  If we plan to build transportation improvements ahead of the development, we either have great foresight or we are accused of building a [name your improvement] to now where.  If we are more reactive (like we usually are), we blow an opportunity and end up facing community opposition because the density began to take hold...

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 17, 2010, 12:41:02 AM
"Bad form, off target, no points scored!"

RAIL was NEVER dying anywhere, it was going through a reality check, eliminating duplicate mileage, cutting non productive branchlines, yards and junctions, reforming, rebuilding  and dumping money losing passenger trains. Like the change from buckboard wagons to 18 wheelers it could be perceived by a novice as "going away" but it's no more vanishing then a caterpillar in a cocoon.



Everyone is entitled to ones' perspective. I say dying, you say reality check. Either way rail was going through a huge adjustment at the time.


As STJR has pointed out so well, this was WELL KNOWN and fought right down to the finish line by our PORT and a myrid of steamship lines. Even THEN we had hundreds of ships that could not clear that bridge, not to mention the long shots like the Navy returning to Green Cove Springs to really foul up the works. The bridge was delayed for years while dozens of lawsuits were fought out. The bridge bent (support) in the channel is an accident waiting to happen. FDOT, JTA, USN, JAXPORT, COJ, all dropped the ball and did this in such a way as to guarantee our port would always be an "also ran" among the giants of the industry.

I am very sure I can research this further being the relative noob to this area. I will say that Hanjin didn't choose to come here to be an "also ran".


JIA, JAXPORT and the COJ knew from the get-go that true international flights have a tremendous economic benefit. Like a major railroad passenger terminal a city of such services can expect rapid growth of connecting and ancillary services, growth begats growth. Besides that the new airline "freedoms" break all of the old rules and companies such as BA or Virgin Atlantic will attract all manner of local or regional support within their frameworks.  Some aspects of the "freedoms" are much older then even the jet age, bottom line? It was more like typical ignorance of the benefits of transportation that have kept JIA in the stone age. Who would have predicted that in the distant future Jacksonville would have fewer international flights then Melbourne or Sanford Florida? How about in 1920? 1950? 1970? 

Can't speak for Melbourne, but Sanford is primarily a dumping ground for international charters to Disney that don't want to pay commercial rates into MCO. As I mentioned in many posts, Jacksonville doesn't stand out for anything, why would anyone want to host an international flight here other than it being on the east coast?


This line is true, I would hope when that day comes to bite the bitter bullet, we not only FINISH the "Hart" Commodore Point Expressway to JTB, that we also bring down the viaducts across East Jacksonville.

Glad we could agree.

Hey Ock, (or can I call you Rodman Reservoir?) why all the photos?

Does anybody have any insight into the Main Street Bridge and its planning?  I read that some politicians wanted U.S 1 to cross the St. Johns River via Liberty Street.
What do you think might have happened if Liberty Street ended up with a bridge and Main Street dead ended at the river?

Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 17, 2010, 12:37:21 PM
The Timuquana/JTB bridge makes perfect transportation sense, but with Venetia/Ortega on the west end and San Jose/Epping Forest the east - it ain't gonna happen.

FYI, the first version of this bridge had University Blvd. West on the San Jose side.  That didn't go anywhere either.  

Quote from: Jaxson on July 17, 2010, 02:56:53 PM
The proposed bridge between Ortega and San Jose is one example of how it is difficult to plan ahead.  If we plan to build transportation improvements ahead of the development, we either have great foresight or we are accused of building a [name your improvement] to now where.  If we are more reactive (like we usually are), we blow an opportunity and end up facing community opposition because the density began to take hold...

I think that the fact that waterfront may be the first property in a desirable area to get developed, it is particularly hard to find the right timing between building a bridge and waiting too long.

Personally, while I miss the convenience of this crossing from time to time, I think it has turned out to be a great asset for Ortega and San Jose that the bridge wasn't built.  These areas mostly kept their character over decades, remained very stable, and didn't get overrun with honky-tonk commercial development and all the excessive traffic that goes with it.  As a result, today these are among the most desirable residential areas in Jax.  It just shows you don't necessarily make life better by paving over everything in sight.

FTI, Jaxson, much of San Jose is older than it may first appear.  The original San Jose development (early houses, San Jose CC, San Jose Hotel/Bolles, San Jose Episcopal Church/School, and Epping Forest Estate) goes back to the 1920's.  Lakewood, around University was build post-WWII/1950's.  Add the defunct Beauclerc CC (now Jewish Community Alliance and Villages of San Jose), San Jose Manor, and San Jose Estates, and a larger swath was also developed in the 1950's.  Most of the remaining infill was built in the 1960's when talk first began of a crossing from University to Timuquana.  Don't forget, Ortega to Timuquana development ranges over that same period.

I am not sure there was anyway to avoid the results that arose to block this bridge.  In those days, the state of city planning seems to have been more intuitive, special interest driven, and/or reactive than "scientifically" anticipated by studying demographic and development trends and applying well researched planning principals.  While things may be better today, it's clear we have a long way to go given the continuing political and special interest overrides to good planning decisions.