Retail garage project proposed for downtown
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Forsyth-Main-Parking-Garage/i-pmkp664/0/f23be2ee/L/DDRB%20Laura%20Trio%20Garage-L.jpg)
A block long surface parking lot in the heart of Downtown Jacksonville could soon be replaced by a six-level parking garage with street level retail space.
Read More: https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2018-jan-retail-garage-project-proposed-for-downtown
I thought the Laura Trio was building a garage in it's block. Is this in addition to that?
The garage that is behind this proposed one is the ugliest garage in North America. I wish they would look at making this garage bigger so that that one could be demolished. It is is a prime location that needs to be replaced with something more urban friendly.
This is the proposed Trio garage.
Love the inclusion of retail, but for such a large garage, I wish there was more of it, not just along Laura.
You could barely squeeze something like a Panera Bread into 5,000 square feet.
Another net win though.
Ennis, quick heads up that the "Next Page" link in the article directs to page one, not page two.
I like this way better than cramming something onto the existing Laura St Trio footprint.
Also 5000 sq ft works great if it is 5 1000 sf spaces (or 4 at 1250). Much easier to fill with smaller businesses, way cheaper rent, and if the space goes vacant at 5000 it could sit empty for a year (or more) waiting to find a new tenant.
I thought the original site plan had the garage not going all the way to the corner to allow for future retail.
Can the Main St Frontage be converted to retail based on market conditions (or for that matter, any of the Forsyth st. Frontage? That really is a long boring block.
I realize this is the key to the Barnett and Trio which I've believed above all else are the more important projects for the core of downtown. With that said, this is uninspiring.
Just clicked on one of the pics and there is the schematic for the garage itself.
- The retail space is 2 stories, which is better as it gets you over 5k SqFt
- It looks like you COULD convert the Main St. area to Retail, but it's not the easiest thing in the world - at the expense of 27 spaces (which I believe is worth it. The Courthouse and Library Garages had a much easier conversion path I believe (outside of the fact that they didn't make them tenant ready and the conversion was expensive).
I wouldn't mind them moving the stairwell on the corner of Forsyth and Main to somewhere else. If you did convert to retail, it would be a situation like Sake House in 5 Points - 2 entrances on side streets, but the corner isn't part of the unit.
(yes, I realize in 5 points it's a pharmacy on teh corner, but that's the easiest comparison).
Also (sorry for the rapid posts):
The Garage Schematic doesn't match the Garage and Trio Site Plan. The Site plan shows a Garage Exit near the retail space at Forsyth and Laura. The Schematic shows the Exit by the entrance near the corner at Main. I get the exit in the site plan, as it helps with the one-way street situation.
With that said, is this for Conceptual or Final approval? Again, I know this project is important for the Barnett/Trio, but let's get it together.
Quote from: Steve on January 16, 2018, 09:09:05 AM
I thought the original site plan had the garage not going all the way to the corner to allow for future retail.
Can the Main St Frontage be converted to retail based on market conditions (or for that matter, any of the Forsyth st. Frontage? That really is a long boring block.
I realize this is the key to the Barnett and Trio which I've believed above all else are the more important projects for the core of downtown. With that said, this is uninspiring.
Unfortunately, for some stange reason the developer was talked out of adding retail at Main and Forsyth by the DIA. What was told to me a while back was there was a concern about there being too much car traffic on Main. In all of my 16 years of architecture, commercial real estate development and planning experience, high vehicle counts are a great thing for commercial uses. Anyway, it doesn't appear it can be converted at a later date because the garage ramp is on that side. Lost opportunity to have to good corners on both sides and something that would complement the retail in 11 East and the old Woolworths building.
Quote from: Steve on January 16, 2018, 09:31:57 AM
Also (sorry for the rapid posts):
The Garage Schematic doesn't match the Garage and Trio Site Plan. The Site plan shows a Garage Exit near the retail space at Forsyth and Laura. The Schematic shows the Exit by the entrance near the corner at Main. I get the exit in the site plan, as it helps with the one-way street situation.
With that said, is this for Conceptual or Final approval? Again, I know this project is important for the Barnett/Trio, but let's get it together.
It's up for conceptual approval this Thursday.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 09:34:10 AM
Quote from: Steve on January 16, 2018, 09:09:05 AM
I thought the original site plan had the garage not going all the way to the corner to allow for future retail.
Can the Main St Frontage be converted to retail based on market conditions (or for that matter, any of the Forsyth st. Frontage? That really is a long boring block.
I realize this is the key to the Barnett and Trio which I've believed above all else are the more important projects for the core of downtown. With that said, this is uninspiring.
Unfortunately, for some stange reason the developer was talked out of adding retail at Main and Forsyth by the DIA. What was told to me a while back was there was a concern about there being too much car traffic on Main. In all of my 16 years of architecture, commercial real estate development and planning experience, high vehicle counts are a great thing for commercial uses. Anyway, it doesn't appear it can be converted at a later date because the garage ramp is on that side. Lost opportunity to have to good corners on both sides and something that would complement the retail in 11 East and the old Woolworths building.
The Ramp is on the back, not the side.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 09:34:10 AM
Quote from: Steve on January 16, 2018, 09:09:05 AM
I thought the original site plan had the garage not going all the way to the corner to allow for future retail.
Can the Main St Frontage be converted to retail based on market conditions (or for that matter, any of the Forsyth st. Frontage? That really is a long boring block.
I realize this is the key to the Barnett and Trio which I've believed above all else are the more important projects for the core of downtown. With that said, this is uninspiring.
Unfortunately, for some stange reason the developer was talked out of adding retail at Main and Forsyth by the DIA. What was told to me a while back was there was a concern about there being too much car traffic on Main. In all of my 16 years of architecture, commercial real estate development and planning experience, high vehicle counts are a great thing for commercial uses. Anyway, it doesn't appear it can be converted at a later date because the garage ramp is on that side. Lost opportunity to have to good corners on both sides and something that would complement the retail in 11 East and the old Woolworths building.
That was boneheaded. Of course there should have been retail at the Main corner. Major misstep by DIA. I think it's important enough that it should be in the article.
I think Jaxnyc79 may have mentioned it in another thread, but we really should identify what streets in the urban core should be retail oriented vs service oriented. One would think Forsyth would classify as a retail oriented street. Outside of this block and the hideous metal garage across from 11 East, it pretty much is from Market to Pearl. Historically, it was all the way into LaVilla. If it is considered a retail corridor, then the future possibility of retail conversion on the northeast side of the structure should at least be seriously considered. Otherwise, you do end up with a hodge podge mix of retail spaces and dead walls at the pedestrian level throughout downtown as infill continues to happen.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 11:22:33 AM
I think Jaxnyc79 may have mentioned it in another thread, but we really should identify what streets in the urban core should be retail oriented vs service oriented. One would think Forsyth would classify as a retail oriented street. Outside of this block and the hideous metal garage across from 11 East, it pretty much is from Market to Pearl. Historically, it was all the way into LaVilla. If it is considered a retail corridor, then the future possibility of retail conversion on the northeast side of the structure should at least be seriously considered. Otherwise, you do end up with a hodge podge mix of retail spaces and dead walls at the pedestrian level throughout downtown as infill continues to happen.
True, and I've said the same before. We need to determine retail corridors and stick to it, and Forsyth should certainly be one. But I'm ok with this garage as there's no other place for it without tearing something down or putting it on the SE Laura-Adams lot (both of which are also prime retail streets), or putting it farther away which would probably kill the whole project.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 09:34:10 AM
Quote from: Steve on January 16, 2018, 09:09:05 AM
I thought the original site plan had the garage not going all the way to the corner to allow for future retail.
Can the Main St Frontage be converted to retail based on market conditions (or for that matter, any of the Forsyth st. Frontage? That really is a long boring block.
I realize this is the key to the Barnett and Trio which I've believed above all else are the more important projects for the core of downtown. With that said, this is uninspiring.
Unfortunately, for some stange reason the developer was talked out of adding retail at Main and Forsyth by the DIA. What was told to me a while back was there was a concern about there being too much car traffic on Main. In all of my 16 years of architecture, commercial real estate development and planning experience, high vehicle counts are a great thing for commercial uses. Anyway, it doesn't appear it can be converted at a later date because the garage ramp is on that side. Lost opportunity to have to good corners on both sides and something that would complement the retail in 11 East and the old Woolworths building.
That's ridiculous, especially with the Perdue and 11E on the opposite corners. The remainder of Forsyth cannot be abandoned like this. In the worst, that space sits empty for a few years until these projects are all off the ground. Someone will take a shot with a restaurant or something service based if Indigo, Courtyard/Trio, Barnett, and others get off the ground within a 2 block radius. You also really want as much synergy as possible going down Forsyth, Adams, and Bay towards the Elbow area (hopefully Convention Center).
Quote from: Tacachale on January 16, 2018, 11:55:55 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 11:22:33 AM
I think Jaxnyc79 may have mentioned it in another thread, but we really should identify what streets in the urban core should be retail oriented vs service oriented. One would think Forsyth would classify as a retail oriented street. Outside of this block and the hideous metal garage across from 11 East, it pretty much is from Market to Pearl. Historically, it was all the way into LaVilla. If it is considered a retail corridor, then the future possibility of retail conversion on the northeast side of the structure should at least be seriously considered. Otherwise, you do end up with a hodge podge mix of retail spaces and dead walls at the pedestrian level throughout downtown as infill continues to happen.
True, and I've said the same before. We need to determine retail corridors and stick to it, and Forsyth should certainly be one. But I'm ok with this garage as there's no other place for it without tearing something down or putting it on the SE Laura-Adams lot (both of which are also prime retail streets), or putting it farther away which would probably kill the whole project.
100% agree. We just seem to be one of the only places in 2018 building retail-less garages all over the place.
Who should we email and call?
Quote from: Tacachale on January 16, 2018, 11:55:55 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 11:22:33 AM
I think Jaxnyc79 may have mentioned it in another thread, but we really should identify what streets in the urban core should be retail oriented vs service oriented. One would think Forsyth would classify as a retail oriented street. Outside of this block and the hideous metal garage across from 11 East, it pretty much is from Market to Pearl. Historically, it was all the way into LaVilla. If it is considered a retail corridor, then the future possibility of retail conversion on the northeast side of the structure should at least be seriously considered. Otherwise, you do end up with a hodge podge mix of retail spaces and dead walls at the pedestrian level throughout downtown as infill continues to happen.
True, and I've said the same before. We need to determine retail corridors and stick to it, and Forsyth should certainly be one. But I'm ok with this garage as there's no other place for it without tearing something down or putting it on the SE Laura-Adams lot (both of which are also prime retail streets), or putting it farther away which would probably kill the whole project.
I think most would agree that the garage is necessary. However, Steve does make a good point in questioning if it should be designed to allow for more retail on the Forsyth and Main Street sides. If not, once it's built, that potential is forever lost.
Lake, any idea if they are providing enough structural support for future vertical expansion? Or at least providing a design that can be easily reinforced?
Terrible miss. If you ever walk around St. Pete, a ton of the most lively retail (restaurant/bar) areas are built on the ground floor of parking garages. You don't even notice it from the street level. Kills 2 birds with one stone.
But then a block away you have a few Parking garages with no street level retail, and those blocks are completely dead. Forsyth and Laura is right in the middle of our downtown and this will be a huge loss that cannot be undone.
This:
https://www.google.com/maps/@27.7721326,-82.6355134,3a,75y,34.2h,81.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFkgtm0f09d-h6KTojwevgw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
vs this:
https://www.google.com/maps/@27.7703291,-82.6353086,3a,75y,90.02h,95.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXbgS8dwdovc14Ty9fu62Sw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 12:04:10 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on January 16, 2018, 11:55:55 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 16, 2018, 11:22:33 AM
I think Jaxnyc79 may have mentioned it in another thread, but we really should identify what streets in the urban core should be retail oriented vs service oriented. One would think Forsyth would classify as a retail oriented street. Outside of this block and the hideous metal garage across from 11 East, it pretty much is from Market to Pearl. Historically, it was all the way into LaVilla. If it is considered a retail corridor, then the future possibility of retail conversion on the northeast side of the structure should at least be seriously considered. Otherwise, you do end up with a hodge podge mix of retail spaces and dead walls at the pedestrian level throughout downtown as infill continues to happen.
True, and I've said the same before. We need to determine retail corridors and stick to it, and Forsyth should certainly be one. But I'm ok with this garage as there's no other place for it without tearing something down or putting it on the SE Laura-Adams lot (both of which are also prime retail streets), or putting it farther away which would probably kill the whole project.
I think most would agree that the garage is necessary. However, Steve does make a good point in questioning if it should be designed to allow for more retail on the Forsyth and Main Street sides. If not, once it's built, that potential is forever lost.
That would be a plus, is there a chance that anything can be done? And what reasoning did the DIA have for not wanting retail on Main Street?
A concern about the mix of pedestrians and high traffic volumes. Consider this second hand information. However, the DDRB application states the DIA's preference for retail facing Laura because that's the desired corridor for street level retail. Either way, both are weak. High AADT is a major plus for retail and good design can alleviate ped/auto conflict. In addition, Laura isn't any less of a retail corridor or focus, if retail spaces are also along streets like Adams, Forsyth, etc.
Oh lord...
So we're not even waiting for Aril 1st anymore? Seriously, who's the driving force who keeps thinking that more parking is definitely a good idea?
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on January 16, 2018, 03:11:18 PM
Oh lord...
So we're not even waiting for Aril 1st anymore? Seriously, who's the driving force who keeps thinking that more parking is definitely a good idea?
Well, in this case I don't have an issue with the parking per se as it activates 4 historic buildings. I just think the garage is underwhelming.
Between this and the shitty 2 story garage to the east that's two full blocks of parking deck along the south side of Forsyth. I get that Main Street is basically a highway through downtown but that doesn't mean it needs to stay that way. Personally I think Main could use to lose a land converted to parallel parking or something to slow it down.
Quote from: Steve on January 16, 2018, 03:32:46 PM
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on January 16, 2018, 03:11:18 PM
Oh lord...
So we're not even waiting for Aril 1st anymore? Seriously, who's the driving force who keeps thinking that more parking is definitely a good idea?
Well, in this case I don't have an issue with the parking per se as it activates 4 historic buildings. I just think the garage is underwhelming.
This is actually an easy fix to an amazing project.
And, we wonder why Downtown doesn't thrive? Nearly an entire block in the heart of the City with no street level interaction. Many cities have garages in the interior of the block so that the entire facing toward the street has "personality." We can't even meet this halfway. Add this patchwork approach that creates dozens of "broken blocks" and "dead zones" to the lack of large green spaces and you have a dying downtown. As noted, these buildings aren't going away anytime soon either, so for decades Downtown will continue to twist in the wind.
Would be interesting for someone to take an aerial of Downtown and highlight how much street frontage is not street interactive vs. that which is. Of the non-interactive, how much of that is due to construction in the last 30 years that likely has a life of at least 30 years more?
By the way, its called "Main Street" for a reason. It's supposed to be the backbone of Downtown, not an expressway to a bridge taking you away expeditiously to suburbia. For a play on words, Downtown planners don't have a "backbone" and that's why we have this mess.
Another parking garage; but...I like this one; at least there's retail on the ground!
Quote from: Steve on January 16, 2018, 09:09:05 AM
Can the Main St Frontage be converted to retail based on market conditions (or for that matter, any of the Forsyth st. Frontage? That really is a long boring block.
Steve, the DDRB agrees with you about retail along Main Street. Though they granted conceptual approval yesterday, they pushed Atkins and co. hard to make a good faith effort to include retail in the portion of the garage fronting Main Street as well.
We'll see what happens.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 19, 2018, 10:43:25 AM
Quote from: Steve on January 16, 2018, 09:09:05 AM
Can the Main St Frontage be converted to retail based on market conditions (or for that matter, any of the Forsyth st. Frontage? That really is a long boring block.
Steve, the DDRB agrees with you about retail along Main Street. Though they granted conceptual approval yesterday, they pushed Atkins and co. hard to make a good faith effort to include retail in the portion of the garage fronting Main Street as well.
We'll see what happens.
Yea.....the DDRB also saw the Gate station in Brooklyn the same way....then they approved the bad design anyway.
Agree with Steve here... good faith efforts are nice when you're working with people, not with companies. For something like this, where you won't reasonably be able to fix it anytime soon if it's not done right the first time, they need to lock in these kinds of agreements on including retail or otherwise making development more conducive to an urban environment.
Looks good. However, I'm disappointed that the only retail is on Laura. Seems that we are limiting somewhat, vitality to Laura, which might be okay for now simply because of little retail investment on the horizon. But how about ten years down the road? Would be nice to have an infrastructure shaped to accommodate a spread to the east of Laura. The long walk along the concrete walled parking garage down both Forsyth and Bay is unfortunate.
Also, I wonder about the feasibility of having on top of the garage ... something like some apartments // retail // restaurants? Seems such a waste to have a block sized area not utilized to the max in a creative way. Of course, the design is set I presume.
Overall however, I'm so glad to see all the building activity ... and the proposed. And all this is going on while Mayor Curry is at the helm of the city. He seems to have done great on most items, and there have been no horrendous scandals involving him. I've not been following things extremely close, but even so, for a first political office run, he seems quite up to it. Onward.
As Lake has mentioned, and as I've mentioned in earlier posts ... a focus on sound infrastructure is critical ... avoiding the hoopla junk, which has only temporary impact ... is of utmost importance. A strong focus on increasing residential in the core is the way to go, as this will tender multiple advantages in the quest for true core vibrancy.
I wish there was a focus on corridors and foot traffic. I'm afraid that not enough people involved in revitalizing downtown actually do a lot of walking.
Choose a corridor, i.e. Bay Street or Laura Street or Main Street, whichever, and then walk the length of that corridor on a daily basis to figure out ideas: Would a newcomer to Jax or a visitor downtown find this walk pleasurable? Are there new things to see like sculptures or waterfalls or lighted storefronts, or am I walking along a wall? Is there protection from a summer sun or a pop-up thunderstorm? Does it feel safe and transparent at nightfall?
Choose a corridor, and let's focus the efforts there with the primary objective of generating foot traffic. Then use sensors to measure that foot traffic to hopefully observe improvements over time.
Here's the latest:
http://jacksonville.com/news/2018-01-23/parking-garage-historic-buildings-could-have-modern-flair-limited-retail
QuoteThe plans for the parking garage have changed since City Council approved legislation last year pledging millions of dollars in city support for renovation of the historic buildings and the parking garage.
Instead of having 550 parking spaces and 12,000 square feet of retail, the garage will have 696 parking spaces and about 4,900 square feet of retail.
So City Council approved the funding of the garage last year with the understanding that it would have 12,000 square feet of retail. Suddenly 60 percent of the square footage for retail is cut, and the DDRB just shrugs their shoulders?
Quote from: KenFSU on January 30, 2018, 11:34:47 PM
QuoteThe plans for the parking garage have changed since City Council approved legislation last year pledging millions of dollars in city support for renovation of the historic buildings and the parking garage.
Instead of having 550 parking spaces and 12,000 square feet of retail, the garage will have 696 parking spaces and about 4,900 square feet of retail.
So City Council approved the funding of the garage last year with the understanding that it would have 12,000 square feet of retail. Suddenly 60 percent of the square footage for retail is cut, and the DDRB just shrugs their shoulders?
I'm confused by all of this. For starters, why would the city allow an entire block on one side of the street along Forsyth to turn into dead space as a garage? Second, the DDRB must still approve the final design, so might we see changes to this proposal? Three, why is Greg Anderson "trusting the panel to do the right thing?" Seems lazy.
Very disappointing. Fascade is 1960's retro ugly. No excuse for a reduction in retail space. Scrap it and start over. That block of Forsyth Street will be a guaranteed dead zone.
THIS is exactly why you need an independent group to advocate for DT. If the city 'got it' it wouldn't be so necessary. But they don't.
QuoteThe city's design requirements for the central part of downtown's Northbank say new parking garages should be built with ground-floor retail or commercial space along at least 50 percent of the building's street frontage. That policy is aimed at preventing parking garages from being dead zones.
Fixed it for you.
Quote from: RatTownRyan on January 31, 2018, 08:50:35 AM
QuoteThe city's design requirements for the central part of downtown's Northbank say new parking garages should be built with give momentary thought to ground-floor retail or commercial space along at least 50 percent of the building's street frontage, but if it's too much trouble, don't worry about it. We can try again next century.
Quote
"If you put a pin in the center of downtown, these buildings are it," Gordon said. "There has always been this gap of energy right here in the middle, and filling that is going to be very transformative."
This gap of energy that we have now, we are going to ensure it will be there forever by building a parking garage. This is exactly what is wrong with downtown. Build the garage yes. But make it 7 floors, with first floor retail or commercial. The southside of the garage is a perfect place for a ramp up to P1 on the second level. The site is plenty big enough that you could even fit the ramps and some parking on the first floor if you wanted along with some vibrant retail along all 3 streets.
Why would we purposely add another block like this: https://www.google.com/maps/@30.3261285,-81.6575735,3a,75y,331.52h,81.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbXisyz7re3ERYwid-ib9Ug!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Quote from: RatTownRyan on January 31, 2018, 08:50:35 AM
QuoteThe city's design requirements for the central part of downtown's Northbank say new parking garages should be built with ground-floor retail or commercial space along at least 50 percent of the building's street frontage. That policy is aimed at preventing parking garages from being dead zones.
Many hit the city hard on changing its design requirements. Actually, in downtown they're pretty decent. We just don't follow them. Hopefully, at a minimum, the structure can be designed to allow more retail when the market is there to support it. This simply involves locating the ramps in a spot that gives sufficient ground level height and depth for future retail along Forsyth Street. The Carling garage on Monroe Street is an example of this. This should be doable without killing the budget.
I actually was more optimistic with that considering that they were actually talking about the lack of retail like it is a problem. I really would like to see retail on Main St and Forsyth in the least. 100% believe with all this development, something will be in space as visible as Main and Forsyth.
Do the people responsible for revitalizing downtown Jax actually know "Jax By Foot?" Do they walk its sidewalks and its curbsides and assess every single detail and detractor making up the pedestrian experience?
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 31, 2018, 12:12:16 PM
Do the people responsible for revitalizing downtown Jax actually know "Jax By Foot?" Do they walk its sidewalks and its curbsides and assess every single detail and detractor making up the pedestrian experience?
Part of the problem is that even the people who take the initiative to improve downtown don't really "get" a lot of this stuff. It's yet another factor of there being too few people living downtown for it to really work as a neighborhood.
Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2018, 12:39:26 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 31, 2018, 12:12:16 PM
Do the people responsible for revitalizing downtown Jax actually know "Jax By Foot?" Do they walk its sidewalks and its curbsides and assess every single detail and detractor making up the pedestrian experience?
Part of the problem is that even the people who take the initiative to improve downtown don't really "get" a lot of this stuff. It's yet another factor of there being too few people living downtown for it to really work as a neighborhood.
Well, on the one hand, it's tragic that the city would invest so much in the Trio restoration, only to have it face a garage along Forsyth. On the other hand, I can understand the fear that restaurants and retail can't just rely on hotel guests, and will need people ex-downtown to come into the core and provide patronage. And the only way people move about in Jax is by car. So Downtown planners are in this odd position of trying to make Downtown patronage by car as seamless and as easy as it is in Mandarin.
There's nothing odd about being within a three block radius of most of downtown's daytime workforce. The retail that was torn down for the current parking lot did well and food trucks that use the space now appear to do okay. Designing that garage for no chance of accommodating future additional retail would a bad long term move.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 31, 2018, 02:13:19 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2018, 12:39:26 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 31, 2018, 12:12:16 PM
Do the people responsible for revitalizing downtown Jax actually know "Jax By Foot?" Do they walk its sidewalks and its curbsides and assess every single detail and detractor making up the pedestrian experience?
Part of the problem is that even the people who take the initiative to improve downtown don't really "get" a lot of this stuff. It's yet another factor of there being too few people living downtown for it to really work as a neighborhood.
Well, on the one hand, it's tragic that the city would invest so much in the Trio restoration, only to have it face a garage along Forsyth. On the other hand, I can understand the fear that restaurants and retail can't just rely on hotel guests, and will need people ex-downtown to come into the core and provide patronage. And the only way people move about in Jax is by car. So Downtown planners are in this odd position of trying to make Downtown patronage by car as seamless and as easy as it is in Mandarin.
The point is that long term thinking is needed. IMO, once the downtown housing market gets going again with these new amenities DT, it will take off similar to the pre-recession boom. You already see it in Tampa, St. Pete, Orlando, West Palm, etc.
It should be an easy fix to at least design the structure with the possibility of future retail, at least at on the Main-Forsyth corner. It may or may not be the case that there's no demand for more retail, but we'll definitely be worse off if there's no way to add retail when the demand grows.
Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2018, 04:20:38 PM
It should be an easy fix to at least design the structure with the possibility of future retail, at least at on the Main-Forsyth corner. It may or may not be the case that there's no demand for more retail, but we'll definitely be worse off if there's no way to add retail when the demand grows.
I agree with this. So who's going to email the DDRB:)? Is there normally a pretty good community showing at these DDRB meetings?
Quote from: Tacachale on January 31, 2018, 04:20:38 PM
It should be an easy fix to at least design the structure with the possibility of future retail, at least at on the Main-Forsyth corner. It may or may not be the case that there's no demand for more retail, but we'll definitely be worse off if there's no way to add retail when the demand grows.
Just observed something here in NYC that might be important to consider in Jax design plans. Rarely do garages occupy the corners of a block, the cars themselves are usually in the interior of the block or underground (not an option in FL, i know). Also, the garage entrances are mid-block - protect the corners, make them retail, and try to block the actual cars and car levels. Pedestrian engagement and street-level vibrancy!
Funny thing is there are a few buildings with underground garages in downtown (that's what flooded Wells Fargo out during Hurricane Irma) and the older garages typically have retail on the street corners (like the BB&T garage at Forsyth and Julia). However, most were built before 1980.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2018, 09:05:26 PM
Funny thing is there are a few buildings with underground garages in downtown (that's what flooded Wells Fargo out during Hurricane Irma) and the older garages typically have retail on the street corners (like the BB&T garage at Forsyth and Julia). However, most were built before 1980.
That's quite interesting. Well, here's to the DDRB making a decision in the best interests of the Jax Pedestrian. Jax by Foot. It's the only chance for downtown. Downtown's edge is its orientation to walkers. Its corridors are all about assembly, about gatherings, and the energy and vitality of people coming together to feed off the creative energy of one another.
What's especially frustrating is that Laura Street has so much positive momentum, and both Monroe and Duval are already effectively dead zones between Laura and Main, minus a small storefront or two.
Forsyth has decent energy two, except for this block. A properly designed structure and Trio helps connect Bellwether with 11 East and the duPont Center.
The retail plans for the Laura Street Trio garage have changed since the last go-round.
At the last meeting, the DDRB asked Molasky/Southeast to make a good faith effort to improve on the 5,000 square feet of retail proposed for the garage.
They came yesterday with a new design that includes 14-fewer parking spots and 9,000 square feet of retail in a two-story space at the corner of Laura and Forsyth.
Still no retail on the corner of Forsyth and Main, however.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/03/29/barnett-laura-street-trio-garage-to-be-renovated.html
The Rendering on the BizJournals site is a little unclear. They show a space at the corner of Main and Forsyth in Pink, along with the retail on Laura and Forsyth. Are they trying to show it could be converted later? It's hard to tell.
Side note - they went modern with the new design. Indifferent in concept, but it's hard to see the detail with those pics.
Quote from: Steve on March 29, 2018, 04:49:53 PM
The Rendering on the BizJournals site is a little unclear. They show a space at the corner of Main and Forsyth in Pink, along with the retail on Laura and Forsyth. Are they trying to show it could be converted later? It's hard to tell.
Side note - they went modern with the new design. Indifferent in concept, but it's hard to see the detail with those pics.
Yep, Atkins confirmed earlier this week that the garage would indeed have convertible retail along Main.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 18, 2018, 11:35:25 PM
Quote from: Steve on March 29, 2018, 04:49:53 PM
The Rendering on the BizJournals site is a little unclear. They show a space at the corner of Main and Forsyth in Pink, along with the retail on Laura and Forsyth. Are they trying to show it could be converted later? It's hard to tell.
Side note - they went modern with the new design. Indifferent in concept, but it's hard to see the detail with those pics.
Yep, Atkins confirmed earlier this week that the garage would indeed have convertible retail along Main.
Well that's good news.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 18, 2018, 11:38:21 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on April 18, 2018, 11:35:25 PM
Quote from: Steve on March 29, 2018, 04:49:53 PM
The Rendering on the BizJournals site is a little unclear. They show a space at the corner of Main and Forsyth in Pink, along with the retail on Laura and Forsyth. Are they trying to show it could be converted later? It's hard to tell.
Side note - they went modern with the new design. Indifferent in concept, but it's hard to see the detail with those pics.
Yep, Atkins confirmed earlier this week that the garage would indeed have convertible retail along Main.
Let's get it built!
Well that's good news.
The final approval, submitted for next Thursday's meeting, shows that the Forsyth and Main corner will be built to accommodate adding retail in the future. Great news.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/final-designs-for-hotel-parking-garage-conceptual-design-for-jones-furniture-co-building-going-before-ddrb
Not so fast. Not sure if this is a mistake or a last minute change.
"The Main Street and Forsyth Street parking garage renovations. The garage will provide parking for the Barnett Bank building and the Laura Street Trio. A two-story 8,728 square-foot retail space on the corner of Forsyth and Laura Street is also planned."
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/05/14/jones-bros-building-hotel-indigo-up-for-ddrb.html
Quote from: RatTownRyan on May 14, 2018, 09:49:12 AM
Not so fast. Not sure if this is a mistake or a last minute change.
"The Main Street and Forsyth Street parking garage renovations. The garage will provide parking for the Barnett Bank building and the Laura Street Trio. A two-story 8,728 square-foot retail space on the corner of Forsyth and Laura Street is also planned."
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/05/14/jones-bros-building-hotel-indigo-up-for-ddrb.html
What's different from the Daily Record article?
Quote from: Steve on May 14, 2018, 10:16:34 AM
Quote from: RatTownRyan on May 14, 2018, 09:49:12 AM
Not so fast. Not sure if this is a mistake or a last minute change.
"The Main Street and Forsyth Street parking garage renovations. The garage will provide parking for the Barnett Bank building and the Laura Street Trio. A two-story 8,728 square-foot retail space on the corner of Forsyth and Laura Street is also planned."
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/05/14/jones-bros-building-hotel-indigo-up-for-ddrb.html
What's different from the Daily Record article?
It looks like the same info. The Daily Record is just more thorough. Sounds like the retail space won't be coming in initially, the structure is just being built so that it could be added later.
^Just as soon as the SunTrust Tower's occupancy rate reaches 65 percent!
:D
Quote from: Tacachale on May 14, 2018, 10:24:18 AM
Quote from: Steve on May 14, 2018, 10:16:34 AM
Quote from: RatTownRyan on May 14, 2018, 09:49:12 AM
Not so fast. Not sure if this is a mistake or a last minute change.
"The Main Street and Forsyth Street parking garage renovations. The garage will provide parking for the Barnett Bank building and the Laura Street Trio. A two-story 8,728 square-foot retail space on the corner of Forsyth and Laura Street is also planned."
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/05/14/jones-bros-building-hotel-indigo-up-for-ddrb.html
What's different from the Daily Record article?
It looks like the same info. The Daily Record is just more thorough. Sounds like the retail space won't be coming in initially, the structure is just being built so that it could be added later.
Well, Laura & Forsyth will be at launch. Main and Forsyth will follow based on market.
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Forsyth-Main-Parking-Garage/i-kZfMphV/0/c196f0f8/L/20180517%20DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_116-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Forsyth-Main-Parking-Garage/i-cqmpsBr/0/c6683931/L/20180517%20DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_114-L.jpg)
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Forsyth-Main-Parking-Garage/i-Z8BvM4Q/0/a4aed625/L/20180517%20DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_109-L.jpg)
More renderings and plans: https://www.moderncities.com/article/2018-may-latest-plans-for-laura-street-trio-garage
DDRB approved! With retail!
Definitely sounds like the garage will be breaking ground before the Trio.
I wonder what happens if the economy goes south and the rest of the Trio is delayed.
Is the city still on the hook for the $660,000 annual lease on the spots? Is Southeast still on the hook for leasing back 250 spots (though the Barnett should cover most of these)?
Quote from: KenFSU on May 18, 2018, 09:09:39 AM
Definitely sounds like the garage will be breaking ground before the Trio.
I wonder what happens if the economy goes south and the rest of the Trio is delayed.
Is the city still on the hook for the $660,000 annual lease on the spots? Is Southeast still on the hook for leasing back 250 spots (though the Barnett should cover most of these)?
For what it's worth, the plan was Barnett, Garage, Trio. I think the Trio is still going through some regulations if I remember.
I believe they can only receive the incentives if all three parts, including the Trio, are actually completed by a certain date. Of course anything can happen, but this is better than other deals.
Here's a better rendering:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Forsyth-Main-Parking-Garage/i-FjsTKFX/0/d6aad636/X2/forsythgarage-X2.jpg)
Definitely not the most eye-popping garage I've ever seen. But, it's okay and the real key is the Barnett and Laura Trio.
Quote from: Steve on May 23, 2018, 10:12:23 AM
Definitely not the most eye-popping garage I've ever seen. But, it's okay and the real key is the Barnett and Laura Trio.
It would have been nice to see a taller garage, but sitting more in the interior of the block, and flanked on both sides by non-garage structures with ground-level retail and residential on top. I feel like this is an extraordinary amount of additional parking for these renovations - but perhaps I'm wrong. If I recall correctly, several entire blocks in that immediate vicinity are covered by garages. I guess the point is that for restaurant and office uses to flourish in downtown Jax, you have to give patrons and tenants as close to a suburban experience as possible, meaning no searches for parking, and parking spaces nearly adjacent to the destination.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 24, 2018, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 23, 2018, 10:12:23 AM
Definitely not the most eye-popping garage I've ever seen. But, it's okay and the real key is the Barnett and Laura Trio.
It would have been nice to see a taller garage, but sitting more in the interior of the block, and flanked on both sides by non-garage structures with ground-level retail and residential on top. I feel like this is an extraordinary amount of additional parking for these renovations - but perhaps I'm wrong. If I recall correctly, several entire blocks in that immediate vicinity are covered by garages. I guess the point is that for restaurant and office uses to flourish in downtown Jax, you have to give patrons and tenants as close to a suburban experience as possible, meaning no searches for parking, and parking spaces nearly adjacent to the destination.
I think your garage thoughts are sound in terms of design, but would be much more expensive. This entire project was a tough one to get to this point, so while I don't love the thing, I'll live with it.
Also, the garage is being used by the hotel, so that's likely driving the space count.
Quote from: Steve on May 24, 2018, 04:08:09 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 24, 2018, 03:45:16 PM
Quote from: Steve on May 23, 2018, 10:12:23 AM
Definitely not the most eye-popping garage I've ever seen. But, it's okay and the real key is the Barnett and Laura Trio.
It would have been nice to see a taller garage, but sitting more in the interior of the block, and flanked on both sides by non-garage structures with ground-level retail and residential on top. I feel like this is an extraordinary amount of additional parking for these renovations - but perhaps I'm wrong. If I recall correctly, several entire blocks in that immediate vicinity are covered by garages. I guess the point is that for restaurant and office uses to flourish in downtown Jax, you have to give patrons and tenants as close to a suburban experience as possible, meaning no searches for parking, and parking spaces nearly adjacent to the destination.
I think your garage thoughts are sound in terms of design, but would be much more expensive. This entire project was a tough one to get to this point, so while I don't love the thing, I'll live with it.
Also, the garage is being used by the hotel, so that's likely driving the space count.
Much more expensive because taller? Taller garage in the center of the block, and just leave the block-ends empty for now until someone builds non-garages. Why give up an entire city block to nothing but a garage is my point. Jax should try and get away from that. Is there a way to achieve that aesthetic without breaking the bank?
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 24, 2018, 03:45:16 PM
If I recall correctly, several entire blocks in that immediate vicinity are covered by garages.
I was walking around downtown today, and if you really stop to notice, it's staggering how much dead space there really is. There are pockets of storefronts here and there, but it feels like for every two or three active uses along the street, there are seven or eight parking garage walls, or banks, or government buildings, etc. Even with all the new residential going up, I worry that the existing infrastructure and tenet mix really handicaps our ability to achieve a truly vibrant 24/7 downtown, particularly in the central business district.
I'm thrilled to see the Trio + Barnett happening (though Chase on the ground floor creates another dead zone on nights and weekends in a highly trafficked area), but I really do think we need to follow other city's leads and require maybe 40% of street frontage for all new development to be active. Even if it means sticking to our guns and losing out on something. Otherwise we're going to - quite literally - box our downtown into a corner.
Quote from: KenFSU on May 24, 2018, 05:05:05 PM
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 24, 2018, 03:45:16 PM
If I recall correctly, several entire blocks in that immediate vicinity are covered by garages.
I was walking around downtown today, and if you really stop to notice, it's staggering how much dead space there really is. There are pockets of storefronts here and there, but it feels like for every two or three active uses along the street, there are seven or eight parking garage walls, or banks, or government buildings, etc. Even with all the new residential going up, I worry that the existing infrastructure and tenet mix really handicaps our ability to achieve a truly vibrant 24/7 downtown, particularly in the central business district.
I'm thrilled to see the Trio + Barnett happening (though Chase on the ground floor creates another dead zone on nights and weekends in a highly trafficked area), but I really do think we need to follow other city's leads and require maybe 40% of street frontage for all new development to be active. Even if it means sticking to our guns and losing out on something. Otherwise we're going to - quite literally - box our downtown into a corner.
I agree with that, and thanks for this posting. I've consistently and continuously posted about this issue - that few people really get to know Downtown Jax by foot. Sometimes you'll hear suggestions about taller buildings, etc, so that downtown looks great on a postcard or to passersby on the Fuller Warren, but the key ingredient that will make downtown a fundamental draw is the vibrancy of the pedestrian experience...the streetscape and all of its features and allures to engage the pedestrian and to entice him/her to linger and to feel ensconced in the sense of place and pulse of the local community. Jax needs a Strip, in fact, several Strips, chock full of contiguous active uses at ground level across several blocks, uninterrupted by walls and "dead space."
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on May 24, 2018, 05:51:44 PM
The key ingredient that will make downtown a fundamental draw is the vibrancy of the pedestrian experience...the streetscape and all of its features and allures to engage the pedestrian and to entice him/her to linger and to feel ensconced in the sense of place and pulse of the local community. Jax needs a Strip, in fact, several Strips, chock full of contiguous active uses at ground level across several blocks, uninterrupted by walls and "dead space."
My parents live in Southwest Florida, down in Fort Myers. I went down to visit this weekend and what they have done with their downtown in the last 15 years by embracing the principals you list above (the same principals that Ennis constantly harps on) is
staggering. When I was growing up, it was pure blight. Nothing but government offices, a handful of run-down dives, and shuttered storefronts. In the early 2000s, they decided that enough was enough. They master-planned their urban core (around 20 blocks), with a focus on active uses, outdoor seating, public art, and nightlife. Ten years later, 60 restaurants and bars are open, there's no vacancy to be found, and the area is exploding so much that the surrounding neighborhoods are having to rewrite their density ordinances to accommodate the growth (https://www.news-press.com/story/news/2017/04/12/fort-myers-midtown-plan-inspires-fear-loathing-and-love/100317968/).
Here are some pictures that I took walking around last weekend, on a rainy off-season night, at midnight.
Notice how everything opens out the street, and how there's outdoor seating everywhere, and there's so many interesting nooks and alleys, and how well lit and maintained their downtown is.
https://imgur.com/a/L3qiWaI
That compact, densely clustered, active streetscape is what's needed for true vibrancy, and I do wonder how we achieve that, even on Laura Street, with so much dead space and so many 9-to-5 uses (including Chase, in such prime real estate at the Barnett). That's why, for the love of God, you can't give Snyder Memorial to a 9-to-5 tenet.
I've said it for years but I believe the city really needs some type of program where it aggressively works to revamp the street level of existing buildings and office towers. Many of our "dead" spaces at street level do have some sort of active use....they just aren't integrated with the sidewalk and street. Baptist literally has a Morrison's cafeteria style restaurant on Laura open every day but you can't tell from the street because its a brick wall with glass block. One would think of it as a warehouse moreso than a place where anyone can buy and eat lunch. All the new stuff on the edges of downtown is great (and needed) but if we don't get the Northbank right, Downtown's overall image will remain a sleepy one. If we can flip some of the interior activity of these spaces to the sidewalks, the Northbank would have more pedestrian traffic, creating opportunity for adjacent vacant spaces and the visibility of active sidewalks would naturally change the entire core's energy and image.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 24, 2018, 09:58:37 PM
I've said it for years but I believe the city really needs some type of program where it aggressively works to revamp the street level of existing buildings and office towers. Many of our "dead" spaces at street level do have some sort of active use....they just aren't integrated with the sidewalk and street. Baptist literally has a Morrison's cafeteria style restaurant on Laura open every day but you can't tell from the street because its a brick wall with glass block. One would think of it as a warehouse moreso than a place where anyone can buy and eat lunch. All the new stuff on the edges of downtown is great (and needed) but if we don't get the Northbank right, Downtown's overall image will remain a sleepy one. If we can flip some of the interior activity of these spaces to the sidewalks, the Northbank would have more pedestrian traffic, creating opportunity for adjacent vacant spaces and the visibility of active sidewalks would naturally change the entire core's energy and image.
I fully agree. In fact, when I first moved to NYC years ago, neighborhoods like Chelsea had very old building stock and you could tell that much of the building was fairly decrepit and being used as storage space, but at street level, it was some sort of glass-covered retail or bar or nightclub use that opened up to the street. Jax could do the same thing, and it really should be demanded of most developments. At least this latest garage is attempting to do that on the Forsyth and Main Street sides, but I just hate the idea of surrendering so much of Laura Street to concrete and front bumpers. One side of Laura will be nicely renovated, and the other side will be a wall.
You mean Forsyth? Yes, it will basically be a concrete wall between Laura and Main. A far cry from the days when it was a theatre district.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 24, 2018, 09:58:37 PM
I've said it for years but I believe the city really needs some type of program where it aggressively works to revamp the street level of existing buildings and office towers. Many of our "dead" spaces at street level do have some sort of active use....they just aren't integrated with the sidewalk and street. Baptist literally has a Morrison's cafeteria style restaurant on Laura open every day but you can't tell from the street because its a brick wall with glass block. One would think of it as a warehouse moreso than a place where anyone can buy and eat lunch. All the new stuff on the edges of downtown is great (and needed) but if we don't get the Northbank right, Downtown's overall image will remain a sleepy one. If we can flip some of the interior activity of these spaces to the sidewalks, the Northbank would have more pedestrian traffic, creating opportunity for adjacent vacant spaces and the visibility of active sidewalks would naturally change the entire core's energy and image.
First of all, WTF on the Baptist cafeteria? Just Googled it. I walk that way multiple times a week, and literally had no idea this was a thing.
Secondly, do you know of any examples of cities who have successfully carried out a project like this?
Third, just want to point out that seeing so much genuine dead space in downtown Jacksonville gives me new respect for what Mike was able to accomplish with the food truck court. Great example of turning a dead block into a lively, active asset.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 23, 2018, 06:41:29 AM
Here's a better rendering:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Forsyth-Main-Parking-Garage/i-FjsTKFX/0/d6aad636/X2/forsythgarage-X2.jpg)
Nice building, but design would be enhanced with palm trees instead of those other trees shown. It's time Jax stopped denying it's Florida setting, and landscape accordingly.
YES!!! PALM TREES!!! ::)
Jax actually has two identities; it is in Florida and is a Florida City, and it also has a southern/Midwestern feel, don't know the reason for that, but that's what I see. In the above photo, and I think those are oak trees, how about a palm, an oak, a palm, etc.? The florida feel with the palms, and the southern/Midwestern feel with the oaks, give em both! Just saying.
^I'm not sure I agree on the palm trees. I may be wrong, but I don't think they are native to this area. A couple clustered around a new development when the rest of downtown is covered with other types of tress would be strange looking.
Quote from: KenFSU on May 25, 2018, 09:39:14 AM
Secondly, do you know of any examples of cities who have successfully carried out a project like this?
Seattle. The CBD in the 80s was mostly office buildings and parking lots/garages. The office buildings were mostly tenant only types of buildings that the public couldn't enter with the exception of maybe a bank branch or a Starbucks or similar.
In the 90s they made a rule that you had to have X% pedestrian oriented retail frontage in all construction projects. Now its one of the most walkable vibrant cities I know of.
Yes, it's pretty common. Most of America's major cities were filled with self contained 80s and 90s boxes. Another was Uptown Charlotte's Tyron Street. Raleigh's Fayetteville St is another. A good streetscape project combined with a building facade improvement program would do wonders. In Jax, we've seen some of this recently from the new owners of Suntrust (the cafe on Laura St in a former office space) and Profit Investments (Hotel Indigo, FSCJ Dorms). These are the things that will ultimately change downtown's image, no matter how much money we throw at the District or in the Stadium District.
^Downtown Orlando has done a good job exposing hidden retail in its office buildings. Not all of it has been remodeling, some of it is just better signage. Unfortunately, the Jax sign ordinance, which has been positive in other neighborhoods, hinders doing that in Downtown Jax.
Quote from: remc86007 on May 25, 2018, 10:51:07 AM
^I'm not sure I agree on the palm trees. I may be wrong, but I don't think they are native to this area. A couple clustered around a new development when the rest of downtown is covered with other types of tress would be strange looking.
Several palms are native to this area. They can be a nice addition in some areas. But shade, as from oak trees which are also native, is a better objective in tree planting than making the place look like a Jimmy Buffet album cover.
Quote from: KenFSU on May 25, 2018, 09:39:14 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 24, 2018, 09:58:37 PM
I've said it for years but I believe the city really needs some type of program where it aggressively works to revamp the street level of existing buildings and office towers. Many of our "dead" spaces at street level do have some sort of active use....they just aren't integrated with the sidewalk and street. Baptist literally has a Morrison's cafeteria style restaurant on Laura open every day but you can't tell from the street because its a brick wall with glass block. One would think of it as a warehouse moreso than a place where anyone can buy and eat lunch. All the new stuff on the edges of downtown is great (and needed) but if we don't get the Northbank right, Downtown's overall image will remain a sleepy one. If we can flip some of the interior activity of these spaces to the sidewalks, the Northbank would have more pedestrian traffic, creating opportunity for adjacent vacant spaces and the visibility of active sidewalks would naturally change the entire core's energy and image.
Can someone e-mail Lori Boyer? In addition to "activate our waterfront," can she proceed with "activate our streetscape" for downtown? I think this is why I'd love to see a seat on Council strictly for Downtown, just on principal, even if the population doesn't justify it. It's significance is out of proportion with its population, and it should get its own representative.
First of all, WTF on the Baptist cafeteria? Just Googled it. I walk that way multiple times a week, and literally had no idea this was a thing.
Secondly, do you know of any examples of cities who have successfully carried out a project like this?
Third, just want to point out that seeing so much genuine dead space in downtown Jacksonville gives me new respect for what Mike was able to accomplish with the food truck court. Great example of turning a dead block into a lively, active asset.
Quote from: Tacachale on May 25, 2018, 11:27:40 AM
^Downtown Orlando has done a good job exposing hidden retail in its office buildings. Not all of it has been remodeling, some of it is just better signage. Unfortunately, the Jax sign ordinance, which has been positive in other neighborhoods, hinders doing that in Downtown Jax.
Yes, it doesn't have to be extensive facade modifications. In certain situations it could be as simple as adding better signage, awings, outdoor seating or in Baptist's case....replacing glass block with transparent storefront window openings.
Quote from: heights unknown on May 25, 2018, 10:45:29 AM
Jax actually has two identities; it is in Florida and is a Florida City, and it also has a southern/Midwestern feel, don't know the reason for that, but that's what I see. In the above photo, and I think those are oak trees, how about a palm, an oak, a palm, etc.? The florida feel with the palms, and the southern/Midwestern feel with the oaks, give em both! Just saying.
This comment reminds me of one of my favorite "trivia" questions: What is the second largest city in GA?
Jacksonville - We are more of a southern city than a Florida city.
Due to Vystar's move downtown, plans have been updated.
Garage will now be 810-spaces, across seven levels.
Quote from: KenFSU on July 17, 2018, 03:37:25 PM
Due to Vystar's move downtown, plans have been updated.
Garage will now be 810-spaces, across seven levels.
Wow....big garage.
Quote from: Steve on July 17, 2018, 04:07:31 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on July 17, 2018, 03:37:25 PM
Due to Vystar's move downtown, plans have been updated.
Garage will now be 810-spaces, across seven levels.
Wow....big garage.
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/9867b1fa3ac337972f761e313a177609/tenor.gif)
Any change to the retail situation?? PLEASE!?
Steve atkins said yesterday at downtown rotary that the garage is being built so that the 1st floor of the main st facade and some of the Adams and main corner can be easily converted to retail at which time that the market will support it. I hadn't heard that before, so I thought that was great news.
Yes, that was the change they made with the DDRB a month or two ago.
I have a question about converting ground floor space to retail, "when the market will support it." Presumably, this involves "converting" ground floor parking spaces to retail space. If the market is hot, won't there also be a big demand for those parking spaces?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 17, 2018, 08:28:25 PM
I have a question about converting ground floor space to retail, "when the market will support it." Presumably, this involves "converting" ground floor parking spaces to retail space. If the market is hot, won't there also be a big demand for those parking spaces?
Yea I'm sure that how they are engineering it, they are probably just making the wall facing Main Street removable to install an entry door and perhaps a small full length window. A compact car parking space is about 8x18 so you would only need 5 spots for a small 720 sq foot retail space.
Quote from: jagsonville on July 17, 2018, 08:53:07 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 17, 2018, 08:28:25 PM
I have a question about converting ground floor space to retail, "when the market will support it." Presumably, this involves "converting" ground floor parking spaces to retail space. If the market is hot, won't there also be a big demand for those parking spaces?
Yea I'm sure that how they are engineering it, they are probably just making the wall facing Main Street removable to install an entry door and perhaps a small full length window. A compact car parking space is about 8x18 so you would only need 5 spots for a small 720 sq foot retail space.
Correct. If the retail portions are converted, you'd only be losing around 10 spots for the Main Street space, and about 5 spots for the Main/Forsyth corner spot. Sure, the parking spots would in theory be in demand, but reserved, first-floor spots downtown tend to go for like $80 a month. So really, build-out costs aside, if Atkins could get more than $800/month in rent for the Main Street slot and more than $400 a month in rent for the corner spot, he's ROI'ing long-term, regardless of demand for parking.
Can't wait to see what Atkins puts into the retail portion facing Laura Street.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I think a Panera Bread (or better yet, Au Bon Pain) would be perfect for that spot.
Safe, clean, reliable cafe, serving breakfast, lunch, and dinner and providing a dependable place to get comfortable and hang out for awhile.
They might as well go 9 stories at this point to match the garage behind it.
Quote from: Steve on July 17, 2018, 04:07:31 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on July 17, 2018, 03:37:25 PM
Due to Vystar's move downtown, plans have been updated.
Garage will now be 810-spaces, across seven levels.
Wow....big garage.
Isn't this only one extra level? Based on the renderings it was already 6 levels if you included the ground and roof. This is just slapping another floor on top.
The garage's ground floor plan:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Forsyth-Main-Parking-Garage/i-Z8BvM4Q/0/a4aed625/X3/20180517%20DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_109-X3.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Forsyth-Main-Parking-Garage/i-cqmpsBr/0/c6683931/X3/20180517%20DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_114-X3.jpg)
Quote from: KenFSU on July 17, 2018, 08:58:45 PM
Quote from: jagsonville on July 17, 2018, 08:53:07 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 17, 2018, 08:28:25 PM
I have a question about converting ground floor space to retail, "when the market will support it." Presumably, this involves "converting" ground floor parking spaces to retail space. If the market is hot, won't there also be a big demand for those parking spaces?
Yea I'm sure that how they are engineering it, they are probably just making the wall facing Main Street removable to install an entry door and perhaps a small full length window. A compact car parking space is about 8x18 so you would only need 5 spots for a small 720 sq foot retail space.
Correct. If the retail portions are converted, you'd only be losing around 10 spots for the Main Street space, and about 5 spots for the Main/Forsyth corner spot. Sure, the parking spots would in theory be in demand, but reserved, first-floor spots downtown tend to go for like $80 a month. So really, build-out costs aside, if Atkins could get more than $800/month in rent for the Main Street slot and more than $400 a month in rent for the corner spot, he's ROI'ing long-term, regardless of demand for parking.
Can't wait to see what Atkins puts into the retail portion facing Laura Street.
Probably an unpopular opinion, but I think a Panera Bread (or better yet, Au Bon Pain) would be perfect for that spot.
Safe, clean, reliable cafe, serving breakfast, lunch, and dinner and providing a dependable place to get comfortable and hang out for awhile.
2 words.....Taco Bell. ;D
It also seems like they have an opportunity to move the garage's entrance closer to Laura Street, and expand the retail if they wanted to.
Quote from: Steve on July 18, 2018, 10:22:26 AM
It also seems like they have an opportunity to move the garage's entrance closer to Laura Street, and expand the retail if they wanted to.
That probably depends on maintaining a proper slope on the ramps. Moving the entrance closer to Laura would likely require re-engineering the entire structure. Which is not to say it shouldn't be considered.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 18, 2018, 10:57:12 AM
Quote from: Steve on July 18, 2018, 10:22:26 AM
It also seems like they have an opportunity to move the garage's entrance closer to Laura Street, and expand the retail if they wanted to.
That probably depends on maintaining a proper slope on the ramps. Moving the entrance closer to Laura would likely require re-engineering the entire structure. Which is not to say it shouldn't be considered.
The ramps are on the backside. The front looks to be flat.
Anyone know where this stands? I'm surprised (or maybe not) this hasn't broken ground
^It's imminent.
Nothing to be concerned about, purely logistics (the Trio is still being used for staging for the completion of the Barnett).
Should go up fast once it's started, as both the Barnett and Vystar are depending on it.
HOw quickly can a ramp this size go up these days? Is a lot of the work prestressed ( ? ) concrete pieces that are built off-site just trucked in and put together on-site?
Smaller parking ramps these days, once the site is prepared, seem to take maybe a week or so to do. I'm not sure how that scales.
My company just put in a 4 story 800 space garage in 4 months. I'd imagine just a couple months longer if there's retail on the bottom. As you said it's all pre cast off site and just Lego blocked together.