Everyone keeps talking about revitalizing downtown Jacksonville. Currently its pretty obvious what the problem is... all the empty lots and very few residents and nothing to do. But with the current residential building boom (can we even call it that), all of the developers are just building out Apartments/Condos with no walkability in mind. Jax needs to really think about its building code and what will happen once these apartments are all built.
I know its a chicken and egg thing. But the city leaders really need to think about making it a requirement that the first floor of all buildings is mostly Retail/Commercial. With these big long blocks on the west side of town beyond the courthouse, if we only have row after row of apartment buildings and no retail, no one will walk around. If no one walks around the town seems dead. We are basically just building more suburbia in our urban core. In most vibrant cities, there is always a ground floor retail with offices and apartments above. Every city with a dead downtown, its just office buildings with nothing to do but work and eat lunch.
We have a great opportunity with all of these vacant lots to build a very fun, very urban, very happening downtown, and its a shame to see it go to waste with these Lofts projects that are just more parking and more apartments, that bring nothing to the vibrancy of downtown except more people with cars who will drive to SJTC when looking for something to do.
We are building this:
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Project-Renderings/i-GkpsJHX/0/L/20151103_DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet.FINAL%20(1)_Page_075-X2-L.jpg)
When we should be building this:
(http://customer.djc.com/stories/images/20170223/Continental%20Parkside_big.jpg)
I really think we as a city are missing the boat here.
Unfortunately mixed use projects pretty much require a sprinkler system, which adds significantly to the cost. And with so much empty retail space downtown, it's not clear how that extra cost gets paid back at this time.
I kind of think we're on the right track with the recent Vestcor projects - they add warm bodies to downtown and (mostly) pay for themselves doing it.
Much of the subsidy is coming from a federal tax credit program (i.e. other people's money) but there are some property tax breaks going on as well...
Quote from: Lostwave on December 13, 2017, 01:44:52 PM
Everyone keeps talking about revitalizing downtown Jacksonville. Currently its pretty obvious what the problem is... all the empty lots and very few residents and nothing to do.
I personally don't believe this is the core problem or a real problem at all. Something like 75 to 100k live within a three mile radius of the Northbank core. How downtown is isolated, in terms of marketing, is more of a detriment than the existing population within the CBD (which is the highest its been in decades). The other big problem in recent years, is the city itself. The lion's share of properties in the Northbank are publicly owned and highly underutilized. How the city uses those properties (or keeps them underutilized) has a direct impact on downtown's vibrancy or lack of thereof.
QuoteBut with the current residential building boom (can we even call it that), all of the developers are just building out Apartments/Condos with no walkability in mind.
It's a "boom" by recent Jax's standards but not much, in comparison with what's been going on in downtowns around the country since the 1990s. However, I'd argue the recent projects (even Broadstone) are being built and designed with walkability in mind. Not even in NYC, will we see 100% of infill buildings being built to be mixed-use. Nevertheless, for every project that's only residential (ex. Lofts of LaVilla, Broadstone, etc.), there seems to be another that's mixed use (ex. Laura Trio, Barnett, Vista Brooklyn, Shipyards, District, Hendricks Baptist site, etc.).
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/200-Riverside/i-8Z9F6Sq/0/L/20161215_DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet%20final_Page_72-L.jpg)
Also, a few that are being built without retail now, appear to have first floors constructed that can be converted into retail if future demand arises.
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU100817/i-TKMbN8B/0/f89d79fc/L/20171029_141901-L.jpg)
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU100817/i-X46RbWw/0/a5f3ff36/L/20171029_142520-L.jpg)
QuoteJax needs to really think about its building code and what will happen once these apartments are all built.
Downtown's design standards and guidelines are actually okay. Unfortunately, in the past, the DDRB has been prone to approving variations and exceptions that go against the concept of walkability.
QuoteI know its a chicken and egg thing. But the city leaders really need to think about making it a requirement that the first floor of all buildings is mostly Retail/Commercial. With these big long blocks on the west side of town beyond the courthouse, if we only have row after row of apartment buildings and no retail, no one will walk around. If no one walks around the town seems dead. We are basically just building more suburbia in our urban core.
People living in urban core areas tend to be more active than we give them credit for. Even without retail (which there are still retail opportunities possible now when the market can support it....even in LaVilla). They're likely to walk or bike to work, exercise and use various forms of mass transit. LaVilla itself was a historical pedestrian scale environment and many of the buildings still left are mixed use by design. As the surface parking lots fill in, opportunities to reactivate existing vacant storefronts and add infill to support the population will start to come. Even if we look at the infill projects under construction west of the courthouse, all appear adaptive to include some form of service, residential support or commercial activity at street level. Overall, I'd say most of the infill projects in the downtown core are a positive to the concept of the area becoming more vibrant.
QuoteIn most vibrant cities, there is always a ground floor retail with offices and apartments above. Every city with a dead downtown, its just office buildings with nothing to do but work and eat lunch.
No argument here. Jax isn't that much different. Actually most cities with dead downtowns aren't different from an infrastructure perspective. The buildings (just about everything built before 1950 is mixed use) tend to be empty or highly vacant.
QuoteWe have a great opportunity with all of these vacant lots to build a very fun, very urban, very happening downtown, and its a shame to see it go to waste with these Lofts projects that are just more parking and more apartments, that bring nothing to the vibrancy of downtown except more people with cars who will drive to SJTC when looking for something to do.
I view SJTC is a different animal altogether. It's a shopping center. It's another suburban form of the area around Orange Park Mall, Atlantic Boulevard and Riverside Marketplace. Outside of eating and shopping, you really can't do much there. There's no industry, civic spaces, parks, river, riverwalk, museums, theaters, sports facilities, etc. If we focus on building up the things that make DT a unique place, along with building up the population base, the retail that draws suburbanites will come.
QuoteI really think we as a city are missing the boat here.
Overall, I think things are changing for the better. We're way past where we were a decade ago.
You're absolutely right. Having said that, I often think that urbanity and walkability are preoccupations of the relatively small cognoscenti in Jax, and not a general concern. I could be wrong, but Jax might be best served by some sort of "urban village theme park" downtown, masquerading as downtown revitalization. I just don't think Jax has the current population or demographic trend to support a version of a NYC borough, or even a Boston, or Seattle, or Portland or San Diego. A regional theme park/recreational area somewhere in the vicinity of the sports complex will probably work, and should be stimulative. My friends in law enforcement in Jax say that the Vestcor LaVilla projects may catalyze a pharmacy in LaVilla, but that LaVilla is likely to be another crime-ridden ghetto in 5-7 years. Buy hey, subsidized housing is a need in Jax, and empty lots in LaVilla are as good a place to put it as anywhere else.
QuoteI just don't think Jax has the current population or demographic trend to support a version of a NYC borough, or even a Boston, or Seattle, or Portland or San Diego.
All of these places are multiple times larger than Jax's urban and metropolitan area. IMO, it's unrealistic to think a small place like Jax will ever become as dense and vibrant as NYC, Boston or Seattle. Portland is a decent example to look up too. However, the Portland today is the result of policies and investments dating back 30 or 40 years.
QuoteA regional theme park/recreational area somewhere in the vicinity of the sports complex will probably work, and should be stimulative.
Please no! A big stumbling block towards downtown's revitalization is making the revitalization process more difficult than it has to be. Looking at a theme park or any one project or style of development as a miracle worker will result in disaster and millions of tax dollars wasted.
QuoteMy friends in law enforcement in Jax say that the Vestcor LaVilla projects may catalyze a pharmacy in LaVilla, but that LaVilla is likely to be another crime-ridden ghetto in 5-7 years.
LaVilla a crime-ridden ghetto in 2017? How? There's literally nothing left. I'd be more scared of zombies chasing me around at night than getting robbed.
They said in 5-7 years, so in 2023 to 2025, not in 2017
Wow, that's pretty disappointing if law enforcement is believing and using those terms in 2017. No wonder the ticketing thing on the Northside just hit the fan. Vestcor isn't building HUD housing and I seriously doubt Beneficial's senior housing project in LaVilla is going to result in attracting criminals to live in it. That's a pretty poor understanding of the housing product being conducted. It's affordable housing, not housing projects. It's also not unique to Jax. This federal program is used to build similar housing in the same cities everyone claims to be vibrant as well.
QuoteAll of these places are multiple times larger than Jax's urban and metropolitan area. IMO, it's unrealistic to think a small place like Jax will ever become as dense and vibrant as NYC, Boston or Seattle. Portland is a decent example to look up too. However, the Portland today is the result of policies and investments dating back 30 or 40 years.
This is exactly what I meant in the original post. We have a great opportunity to build out the downtown in a way that will pay off in 20-40 years. But if the city allows tons of residential only infill, our downtown will be just another baymeadows. If we could build some pockets of urban oasis with residential/office/retail, eventually everything will connect together into a great, thriving downtown.
Seattle downtown was dead 30 years ago. They required buildings to have street level retail starting in the early 90s, and now people are leaving the suburbs to live downtown. Its been an amazing transformation.
I just spent last week in San Diego. In their downtown, there are a ton of residential only developments, especially 2-3 blocks off of Gaslamp.
I would take San Diego's downtown in a HEARTBEAT.
Curious if anyone has heard any updated on the projects around Intuition? I believe there was a bowling alley planned along w/ residential. Seemed like an awesome project similiar to the Gaslamp District.
In terms of scale, metro Jax is roughly the same size todat that metro Seattle was in 1960. By 1980, metro Seattle had over 2 million residents. Now Seattle is nearing 4 million, while Jax is closer to 1.5 million. Historically, Seattle has always been a much larger town that Jax. In that sense, LaVilla would not even be considered a part of downtown. In Jax, the historical CBD is probably bounded by the river, Hogans Creek, Union Street and Broad Street. If compared to Seattle's CBD, there is no infill of any kind taking place. Just a few adaptive reuse projects that are all mixed used. Out of all infill projects rising or proposed in fringe neighborhoods like LaVilla or the Southbank, the only two I can think of with no chance of ever adding retail is San Marco Apartments and Broadstone. However, in Broadstone's case, there's probably 10 to 20k square feet of empty retail space immediately next door. So maybe Broadstone's presence helps fill some of it, along with breaking up a former mega-block? In LaVilla there's currently three infill apartment projects under construction. Lofts of Monroe has a small retail space for something like a coffee shop or corner market. Houston Street Manor and Lofts of LaVilla both have first floors that appear to be built in a way that they could one day be used for retail. I think Jax will be okay as long as it's projects are designed to be adaptable to accommodate changing market demands. 30/40 years down the road, what's coming up today may be getting replaced by a more urban product.
I believe one thing that gets overlooked in these discussions is the availability of land in close proximity to an urban area. Jacksonville still has TONS of available land, relatively easy to build on. For example, I am living in the Atlantic North development. Nothing but trees and swamp next to an airport ten years ago. Now, there are hundreds of apartments and lots of shopping in place, a huge movie theater coming, etc. Look at what has happened around Baymeadows and 295. Same thing. People have little reason to want to go downtown and fight all the things that are there (lack of parking, lack of quality things to do, perceived lack of safety, etc.) and companies that build these things can pick between fighting a battle which they believe is not winnable or flattening some trees and building out. I would LOVE to see a vibrant downtown, but until one of the big money men (Khan, Rummels, ...) puts something in place to spur the other players, it's not going to happen, at least not for decades.
One thing that's easy to miss is that residential is the main thing Downtown is lacking, and it's the main thing there's a demand for. There's a glut of office space, and retail/entertainment appears to be at about the level of the demand. But with residential, whenever new units go up either downtown or the periphery, they stay full. I'd say that's the more important piece; more residential increases the demand for retail and the rest.
I was in Vancouver a few months ago. While many of the buildings have ground floor retail, most don't. And the ones that do are often concentrated on main drags so they're more clustered together. It's very vibrant in general. One thing Jax should consider in peripheral areas like LaVilla and Brooklyn is identifying stretches where retail *must* be included to cluster storefronts along the same streets, instead of spread across multiple blocks. I doubt we'll ever be at a place again where there's enough demand for retail along every street in the CBD. The downtown core would be different, but new projects haven't spread there yet.
Quote from: Tacachale on December 14, 2017, 11:44:46 AM
One thing Jax should consider in peripheral areas like LaVilla and Brooklyn is identifying stretches where retail *must* be included to cluster storefronts along the same streets, instead of spread across multiple blocks
Yes, this is exactly the point. If the city doesn't plan now, it will be too late.
Quote from: Lostwave on December 14, 2017, 02:04:13 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on December 14, 2017, 11:44:46 AM
One thing Jax should consider in peripheral areas like LaVilla and Brooklyn is identifying stretches where retail *must* be included to cluster storefronts along the same streets, instead of spread across multiple blocks
Yes, this is exactly the point. If the city doesn't plan now, it will be too late.
If I were to have to choose, I'd that in Lavilla, say frontage on Forsyth, Adams, and Jefferson streets should have retail with no setbacks if at all possible, with retail preferred but optional for the time being for the other streets (especially lots on a corner to one of those streets). Those are kind of the main thoroughfairs through Lavilla that already have some concentration of storefronts, if not active businesses. In Brooklyn, I'd do the same with Riverside and Park.
And, Detroit just keeps rocking. The groundbreaking for a new 58-story tower and adjoining 12-story retail and other-use building. Again, as I have also mentioned in other threads, it takes a LOCAL person with a lot of money to spearhead these things. Bedrock Detroit is led by Dan Gilbert, the billionaire from Quicken Loans.
https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/gilbert-breaks-ground-on-skyscraper-at-detroits-old-hudsons-site
Gilbert is like the biggest sugar daddy in the country. On a certain level, he makes Detroit and exception to the rule. How do local sugar daddies in cities like Louisville, Orlando, Tampa, Fort Worth, Memphis, Norfolk, etc. compare with Jax's? Another observation would be successful smaller cities like Charleston, Greenville and Chattanooga.
How about this:
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-apr-does-downtown-jacksonville-need-a-sugar-daddy (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-apr-does-downtown-jacksonville-need-a-sugar-daddy)
Quote
In case you missed this one, every city that has succeeded in redeveloping their downtown has had a sugar daddy in some form or fashion ... either a strong/long-standing mayor (Joe Riley in Charleston), a committed business leader (Hugh McColl in Charlotte), a local philanthropist (Julian Price in Asheville), or a progressive institution (SCAD in Savannah) ...
Also very interesting:
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/04/asheville-just-happened-to-turn-into-a-nice-downtown-didnt-it/391391/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/04/asheville-just-happened-to-turn-into-a-nice-downtown-didnt-it/391391/)
QuoteSome of that pessimism was reinforced when large-scale solutions attempted by city leaders failed. A proposal was floated demolish a large part of the historic downtown and replace it with an enclosed mall. That idea was voted down but in the process local citizens became much more invested in saving and bringing back downtown. Citizen resistance was led by John Lantzius, who was already busy, with his sister, Dawn, renovating buildings, in one of the blocks slated for demolition, and providing low-cost spaces for local businesses.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2017, 05:20:22 PM
Gilbert is like the biggest sugar daddy in the country. On a certain level, he makes Detroit and exception to the rule. How do local sugar daddies in cities like Louisville, Orlando, Tampa, Fort Worth, Memphis, Norfolk, etc. compare with Jax's? Another observation would be successful smaller cities like Charleston, Greenville and Chattanooga.
I've talked before about Grand Rapids which is a MUCH smaller "big" city than Jacksonville. Their downtown was so bleak, you could go into it after 5 PM and hit a golf ball in any direction without worrying about injuring a human being, at least not an employed one. Then, DeVos and VanAndel started the ball rolling. Once they had committed several millions to a key project or two, the rest of the money stepped up. Downtown GR in 2017 absolutely crushes DT Jax, and that is a complete embarrassment. Now, in the last 10 years, we've watched Detroit do the same thing. Why? Gilbert, Ilitch, and the other LOCAL, BIG-MONEY guys have made it happen. Again, where would you rather go to have a great evening? Downtown Jax or Downtown Detroit? There's something VERY wrong with that picture, but it is the way it is, here.
Quote from: TimmyB on December 14, 2017, 05:50:10 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2017, 05:20:22 PM
Gilbert is like the biggest sugar daddy in the country. On a certain level, he makes Detroit and exception to the rule. How do local sugar daddies in cities like Louisville, Orlando, Tampa, Fort Worth, Memphis, Norfolk, etc. compare with Jax's? Another observation would be successful smaller cities like Charleston, Greenville and Chattanooga.
I've talked before about Grand Rapids which is a MUCH smaller "big" city than Jacksonville. Their downtown was so bleak, you could go into it after 5 PM and hit a golf ball in any direction without worrying about injuring a human being, at least not an employed one. Then, DeVos and VanAndel started the ball rolling. Once they had committed several millions to a key project or two, the rest of the money stepped up. Downtown GR in 2017 absolutely crushes DT Jax, and that is a complete embarrassment. Now, in the last 10 years, we've watched Detroit do the same thing. Why? Gilbert, Ilitch, and the other LOCAL, BIG-MONEY guys have made it happen. Again, where would you rather go to have a great evening? Downtown Jax or Downtown Detroit? There's something VERY wrong with that picture, but it is the way it is, here.
TB, I understand your point, but one must remember JAX already has several gathering districts that compete with DT. As an example the beaches in general attract people with things to do. Fernandina and St. Augustine also. I grew up in Columbus OH. they have little "competition" to the Scioto river DT and the Short North in OSU. I believe that more people living DT and a reason to go DT(ie. LIVE Jax!) will improve the situation dramatically. If amazon and/or Shad want to light the fuse, then all bets are off.
Quote from: jaxjags on December 14, 2017, 07:15:33 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on December 14, 2017, 05:50:10 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2017, 05:20:22 PM
Gilbert is like the biggest sugar daddy in the country. On a certain level, he makes Detroit and exception to the rule. How do local sugar daddies in cities like Louisville, Orlando, Tampa, Fort Worth, Memphis, Norfolk, etc. compare with Jax's? Another observation would be successful smaller cities like Charleston, Greenville and Chattanooga.
I've talked before about Grand Rapids which is a MUCH smaller "big" city than Jacksonville. Their downtown was so bleak, you could go into it after 5 PM and hit a golf ball in any direction without worrying about injuring a human being, at least not an employed one. Then, DeVos and VanAndel started the ball rolling. Once they had committed several millions to a key project or two, the rest of the money stepped up. Downtown GR in 2017 absolutely crushes DT Jax, and that is a complete embarrassment. Now, in the last 10 years, we've watched Detroit do the same thing. Why? Gilbert, Ilitch, and the other LOCAL, BIG-MONEY guys have made it happen. Again, where would you rather go to have a great evening? Downtown Jax or Downtown Detroit? There's something VERY wrong with that picture, but it is the way it is, here.
TB, I understand your point, but one must remember JAX already has several gathering districts that compete with DT. As an example the beaches in general attract people with things to do. Fernandina and St. Augustine also. I grew up in Columbus OH. they have little "competition" to the Scioto river DT and the Short North in OSU. I believe that more people living DT and a reason to go DT(ie. LIVE Jax!) will improve the situation dramatically. If amazon and/or Shad want to light the fuse, then all bets are off.
Hey, don't get me wrong. I absolutely WANT our downtown to be as cool or even better than these other places! I just truly believe that it takes a local, non-government entity to invest big $$$ into one, maybe two projects. Then, once that happens, the confidence factor is there, and others start to invest their money. It's a snowball, rolling downhill at that point.
I am excited for these housing things to be happening, whether it's large apartment complexes or high-rise towers. Totally agree with you that the more people that are there, the more demand there will be for developers to actually build things to meet their needs.
Quote from: TimmyB on December 14, 2017, 05:50:10 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2017, 05:20:22 PM
Gilbert is like the biggest sugar daddy in the country. On a certain level, he makes Detroit and exception to the rule. How do local sugar daddies in cities like Louisville, Orlando, Tampa, Fort Worth, Memphis, Norfolk, etc. compare with Jax's? Another observation would be successful smaller cities like Charleston, Greenville and Chattanooga.
I've talked before about Grand Rapids which is a MUCH smaller "big" city than Jacksonville. Their downtown was so bleak, you could go into it after 5 PM and hit a golf ball in any direction without worrying about injuring a human being, at least not an employed one. Then, DeVos and VanAndel started the ball rolling. Once they had committed several millions to a key project or two, the rest of the money stepped up. Downtown GR in 2017 absolutely crushes DT Jax, and that is a complete embarrassment.
GR isn't that much smaller. It and Jax are more comparable in size than many of the cities like Seattle, Portland, San Diego, NYC, Detroit, etc. that have been mentioned in this thread. I was last up there around 2007 or so. I felt it was more vibrant than DT Jax then. By that time, they had cleaned up the riverfront and there was some sort of entertainment district to the south of the CBD that appeared to be doing pretty well. I'm sure it's a lot better now 10 years later.
With that said, I've seen cities not wait for some big pocket individual to invest in their community to turn things around as well. Lakeland is a great example. They created a plan of upgrading all public streets and parks along with some targeted super aggressive incentive packages to lure a few anchors into their core. The private sector responded to the foundation of the revitalization that the city kicked off and committed itself too. Greenville appears to be another example of this. I guess what I'm saying is, DT revitalization doesn't necessarily come down to waiting for someone with money to feel sorry for the city and put it on their back to bring it back. Revitalization can also take place in an easier, less expensive form of public money improving infrastructure and creating policies that foster private sector investment of all shapes, culture and sizes.
QuoteNow, in the last 10 years, we've watched Detroit do the same thing. Why? Gilbert, Ilitch, and the other LOCAL, BIG-MONEY guys have made it happen. Again, where would you rather go to have a great evening? Downtown Jax or Downtown Detroit? There's something VERY wrong with that picture, but it is the way it is, here.
To be fair, Detroit on its worse day was still more vibrant that Jax has ever been. Even with the dramatic population loss over since 1950, the metro is still five times as large and the downtown's built density is indicative of that. I maybe one of the few who will say it, but I thought DT Detroit was ahead of Jax's as far back as the years they hosted the super bowl back to back (2005 to 2006?). Back then, even though Woodward was pretty bleak, it still had built density, Campus Martius Park (new at the time) and Greektown. Those are three things we still don't have a comparison to in the Northbank.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on December 14, 2017, 06:20:50 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on December 14, 2017, 05:50:10 PM
Again, where would you rather go to have a great evening? Downtown Jax or Downtown Detroit?
Jax. The lingering stench of bankruptcy would get to me....
We'd be bankrupt too by now if we hadn't consolidated with the county to mask the white flight. I suspect if Detroit had the opportunity to consolidate with Wayne County back in the 1960s, it would have not spiraled into bankruptcy either.
Quote from: Gunnar on December 14, 2017, 05:44:05 PM
How about this:
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-apr-does-downtown-jacksonville-need-a-sugar-daddy (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-apr-does-downtown-jacksonville-need-a-sugar-daddy)
Quote
In case you missed this one, every city that has succeeded in redeveloping their downtown has had a sugar daddy in some form or fashion ... either a strong/long-standing mayor (Joe Riley in Charleston), a committed business leader (Hugh McColl in Charlotte), a local philanthropist (Julian Price in Asheville), or a progressive institution (SCAD in Savannah) ...
Also very interesting:
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/04/asheville-just-happened-to-turn-into-a-nice-downtown-didnt-it/391391/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2015/04/asheville-just-happened-to-turn-into-a-nice-downtown-didnt-it/391391/)
QuoteSome of that pessimism was reinforced when large-scale solutions attempted by city leaders failed. A proposal was floated demolish a large part of the historic downtown and replace it with an enclosed mall. That idea was voted down but in the process local citizens became much more invested in saving and bringing back downtown. Citizen resistance was led by John Lantzius, who was already busy, with his sister, Dawn, renovating buildings, in one of the blocks slated for demolition, and providing low-cost spaces for local businesses.
If this is the case, there's a lot of people and entities investing in DT right now. Which one will emerge as the "sugar daddy" under these terms? FSCJ (copying SCAD's approach), Mayor Lenny Curry, Shad Khan, Vestcor? Or maybe it's driven from the bottom up and a result of several parties each doing their small part? Time will ultimately tell.
Quote from: jaxjags on December 14, 2017, 07:15:33 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on December 14, 2017, 05:50:10 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2017, 05:20:22 PM
Gilbert is like the biggest sugar daddy in the country. On a certain level, he makes Detroit and exception to the rule. How do local sugar daddies in cities like Louisville, Orlando, Tampa, Fort Worth, Memphis, Norfolk, etc. compare with Jax's? Another observation would be successful smaller cities like Charleston, Greenville and Chattanooga.
I've talked before about Grand Rapids which is a MUCH smaller "big" city than Jacksonville. Their downtown was so bleak, you could go into it after 5 PM and hit a golf ball in any direction without worrying about injuring a human being, at least not an employed one. Then, DeVos and VanAndel started the ball rolling. Once they had committed several millions to a key project or two, the rest of the money stepped up. Downtown GR in 2017 absolutely crushes DT Jax, and that is a complete embarrassment. Now, in the last 10 years, we've watched Detroit do the same thing. Why? Gilbert, Ilitch, and the other LOCAL, BIG-MONEY guys have made it happen. Again, where would you rather go to have a great evening? Downtown Jax or Downtown Detroit? There's something VERY wrong with that picture, but it is the way it is, here.
TB, I understand your point, but one must remember JAX already has several gathering districts that compete with DT. As an example the beaches in general attract people with things to do. Fernandina and St. Augustine also. I grew up in Columbus OH. they have little "competition" to the Scioto river DT and the Short North in OSU. I believe that more people living DT and a reason to go DT(ie. LIVE Jax!) will improve the situation dramatically. If amazon and/or Shad want to light the fuse, then all bets are off.
I don't necessarily see Jax being unique in this case. Let's take Detroit for example. It has some of the nicest suburbs I've ever seen in the US. Places like Birmingham and Royal Oak have pretty decent urban centers themselves, due to the amount of suburban residents not totally buying into going into Detroit if they don't have too. Even Windsor has a more vibrant core than Jax. There are a lot more malls than what suburban Jax brings to the table as well. To sum it up, most US metros aren't downtown centric anymore. However, with good civic leadership the downtown core can still carve out its niche. In the past, Jax has screwed up. Hopefully, we've finally entered a period where we've learned from our past mistakes.
Quote from: TimmyB on December 14, 2017, 08:10:57 PMHey, don't get me wrong. I absolutely WANT our downtown to be as cool or even better than these other places! I just truly believe that it takes a local, non-government entity to invest big $$$ into one, maybe two projects. Then, once that happens, the confidence factor is there, and others start to invest their money. It's a snowball, rolling downhill at that point.
I'd argue our history has proven this to not be true. Charter, Barnett, Independent Life, Rouse, etc. all were non-government entities (three of them local) to invest big $$$ into multiple projects during the 1970s through the 1990s. Our skyline today was literally built by local entities. The place still flopped. Despite the money spent, most of the investment went to projects that weren't exactly pedestrian friendly at street level. IMO, confidence starts with the City. It's downtown's largest landowner and is responsible for most of the streets, sidewalks and parks within the core. Commit to upgrading and maintaining public spaces and facilitating deals to turn underutilized public property over to being utilized private property and things will dramatically improve for the better. Do that and we'll lure both the big and little fish to invest money in a multitude of projects.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2017, 09:20:18 PM
Quote from: jaxjags on December 14, 2017, 07:15:33 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on December 14, 2017, 05:50:10 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 14, 2017, 05:20:22 PM
Gilbert is like the biggest sugar daddy in the country. On a certain level, he makes Detroit and exception to the rule. How do local sugar daddies in cities like Louisville, Orlando, Tampa, Fort Worth, Memphis, Norfolk, etc. compare with Jax's? Another observation would be successful smaller cities like Charleston, Greenville and Chattanooga.
I've talked before about Grand Rapids which is a MUCH smaller "big" city than Jacksonville. Their downtown was so bleak, you could go into it after 5 PM and hit a golf ball in any direction without worrying about injuring a human being, at least not an employed one. Then, DeVos and VanAndel started the ball rolling. Once they had committed several millions to a key project or two, the rest of the money stepped up. Downtown GR in 2017 absolutely crushes DT Jax, and that is a complete embarrassment. Now, in the last 10 years, we've watched Detroit do the same thing. Why? Gilbert, Ilitch, and the other LOCAL, BIG-MONEY guys have made it happen. Again, where would you rather go to have a great evening? Downtown Jax or Downtown Detroit? There's something VERY wrong with that picture, but it is the way it is, here.
TB, I understand your point, but one must remember JAX already has several gathering districts that compete with DT. As an example the beaches in general attract people with things to do. Fernandina and St. Augustine also. I grew up in Columbus OH. they have little "competition" to the Scioto river DT and the Short North in OSU. I believe that more people living DT and a reason to go DT(ie. LIVE Jax!) will improve the situation dramatically. If amazon and/or Shad want to light the fuse, then all bets are off.
I don't necessarily see Jax being unique in this case. Let's take Detroit for example. It has some of the nicest suburbs I've ever seen in the US. Places like Birmingham and Royal Oak have pretty decent urban centers themselves, due to the amount of suburban residents not totally buying into going into Detroit if they don't have too. Even Windsor has a more vibrant core than Jax. There are a lot more malls than what suburban Jax brings to the table as well. To sum it up, most US metros aren't downtown centric anymore. However, with good civic leadership the downtown core can still carve out its niche. In the past, Jax has screwed up. Hopefully, we've finally entered a period where we've learned from our past mistakes.
I was talking more about gathering places, not necessarily suburbs. Places where do people go to eat and have fun. Jax has many of these center, several at beaches, Riverside, 5 points, Avondale, SJTC, etc. The closest to DT, and may emerge next with Live Jax, is sports complex.
They are the same "gathering" places. Jax is basically Duval County. Detriot is essentially metro Detroit's version of Jax's Northside. With that said, I didn't mention inner city areas of Detriot that are "gathering" places in their own right like Mexicantown, Eastern Market, Corktown or New Center. What DT Jax faces is really no different than most CBDs in second and third tier US cities. Some have just done a better job of revitalization while others have not.
Quote from: jaxjags on December 15, 2017, 10:51:42 AM
I was talking more about gathering places, not necessarily suburbs. Places where do people go to eat and have fun. Jax has many of these center, several at beaches, Riverside, 5 points, Avondale, SJTC, etc. The closest to DT, and may emerge next with Live Jax, is sports complex.
Those suburbs are gathering places. If you are talking about something on the scale of Shoppes of Avondale as one stretch, 5 points as one, and Riverside's King St as another, then I'm pretty sure Detroit has over 30 of those within the CSA.
Actually I may be way under estimating that number. Like Lake said, those suburbs have their own downtowns that in several cases dwarf our little inner ring suburb commercial corridors.
That's my point. These places compete with DT, and we only have 1.7 million people to fill them. Unlike Detroit and other large Met areas with 2-5 million.
Quote from: jaxjags on December 15, 2017, 01:21:31 PM
That's my point. These places compete with DT, and we only have 1.7 million people to fill them. Unlike Detroit and other large Met areas with 2-5 million.
On the other hand, Grand Rapids is two-thirds the size of JAX and kicks the living crap out it, regarding things to do downtown after 5 PM. Van Andel Arena plays host to probably 275-300 events per year, between sports and concerts. The people there have a multitude of great places to eat, drink, whatever before or after the event. Can we say that about our DT? For goodness sake, we are a city with an NFL franchise.
We can make excuses, but as others have pointed out, we seem to have no vision whatsoever. We have a bunch of pie in the sky proposals, that are not linked together. Again, am I complaining? No. I'm pointing out the obvious and hoping that in the coming few months, some concrete things are actually nailed down as part of a master plan for the entire area. I've only lived here very briefly, but I want downtown to be part of the entertainment mix of my life and currently, I have little reason to venture down there.
Quote from: jaxjags on December 15, 2017, 01:21:31 PM
That's my point. These places compete with DT, and we only have 1.7 million people to fill them. Unlike Detroit and other large Met areas with 2-5 million.
Gotcha. It seemed like your point was that we have more competition for our downtown, when many other large metros have far more competition. But if your point is that we are simply much smaller than these other places, that is absolutely true.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on December 15, 2017, 11:19:08 AM
Quote from: jaxjags on December 15, 2017, 10:51:42 AM
I was talking more about gathering places, not necessarily suburbs. Places where do people go to eat and have fun. Jax has many of these center, several at beaches, Riverside, 5 points, Avondale, SJTC, etc. The closest to DT, and may emerge next with Live Jax, is sports complex.
Those suburbs are gathering places. If you are talking about something on the scale of Shoppes of Avondale as one stretch, 5 points as one, and Riverside's King St as another, then I'm pretty sure Detroit has over 30 of those within the CSA.
They do. In my experience, they often try to set themselves apart from "Detroit", but it's not really any different than the Town Center or Beaches are for Jax.
It's still inaccurate to think that Jax is unique. Metro Jax is a little under 1.5 million. Places in this population range include Milwaukee, Nashville, Louisville, Birmingham, Richmond, Memphis, etc. They all have their versions of Five Points, San Marco Square and Town Center. Most have larger versions like the Gulch (Nashville) Southside (Birmingham) and Highlands (Louisville).