http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-10-16/city-approves-15-million-hart-bridge-ramp-demolition-which-it-now-says-will
So is all this expensive redevelopment really and truly necessary? I almost posted this under politics board.
It just has a political feel to it, I.M.H.O.. Maybe I really don't know what I am talking about, as I am not an engineer or architect. What do y'all think about this?
Does this project need to happen for public safety reasons? Will it really bring in $500million in investments that will benefit downtown?
^There was a thread about this already; perhaps this can be merged there.
The Hart Bridge ramps do hamstring development in that area and aren't necessary. They're also increasingly a safety issue as the bridge ages. There has been talk of development in the Shipyards/Metro Park that won't be possible with the ramps there. So, they need to come down sooner or later. But, there's a question as to whether it should be a priority now, given the cost and other needs we have.
After listening to Melissa Ross' show this morning. I am guessing this bridge will be up for renaming soon. Seems like the founder of our city had a dark past.
Eventually they are coming down. They serve no purpose and would be much more to reconstruct when necessary. Too many reasons not to remove it.
I think the people driving over the Hart bridge to the central and western parts of downtown will now have to creep along waiting for the traffic signals that are sure to come. Wasn't that the reason the overpasses were built to begin with? This is a totally public funded gift for the fat cats. That money could be better spent on truly public needs.
Sometimes what helps the "fat cats" helps the common person too. If we had a thriving, redeveloped shipyards, all of Jacksonville would benefit.
Quote from: Snaketoz on October 25, 2017, 08:34:01 PM
I think the people driving over the Hart bridge to the central and western parts of downtown will now have to creep along waiting for the traffic signals that are sure to come. Wasn't that the reason the overpasses were built to begin with? This is a totally public funded gift for the fat cats. That money could be better spent on truly public needs.
No, the viaduct was originally built to go over the industrial yards that lined the river for much of the city's history. If the road would have been built at grade, during the 60s, it would have negatively impacted industrial operations that it would have severed in half.
Meanwhile, we still haven't even gotten a proper estimate for how much it will cost to remediate the Shipyards and Metro Park.
I feel like we should get a price tag for cleanup before we start spending money to make the way for development.
If it's going to cost more money to clean up the Shipyards, Metro Park, and the parcels that the ramps currently stand above than the city can afford or Iguana is willing to spend, we should probably cool our jets on prioritizing the demolition of those ramps.
It will be years before that bridge comes down. However, the lobbying and positioning for funding should be happening now.
Quote from: remc86007 on October 25, 2017, 09:05:58 PM
Sometimes what helps the "fat cats" helps the common person too. If we had a thriving, redeveloped shipyards, all of Jacksonville would benefit.
OK, I get it. Let "Trickle Down Economics" come in to play. Has anyone thought that vehicle traffic and pedestrians don't mix well? Keeping the traffic from across the river moving above the pedestrians below, will actually be safer. Jacksonville has a terrible pedestrians hit by vehicles rate. If you want to make the area a busy entertainment center, move traffic to a few large, well lit and secure parking areas and have shuttles at regular schedules take people to the area. I know it's against all we now know and like, but we need to change our outdated views.
^Check out San Francisco's Embarcadero. It worked out great there and it facilitates a level of pedestrian, transit, bike and vehicle traffic DT Jax will never see. Also, part of this particular proposal coverts the east section of the viaduct into an elevated bike/ped link.
I agree that the ramps need to go at least at some point. They are not a safety hazard currently and the port issue is minor. Obviously this is getting fast tracked, albeit that is relative when it comes to highway infrastructure. This will be a huge boon to Khan and as such should count mightily in the 'contribution' that the city is making to redevelop the Shipyards.
My fear is that the various governments will get the full bill for ramp demo, remediation and a Convention Center and then Khan will probably still get the land for next to nothing. He needs to have financial skin in this game beyond the cost of his new buildings alone.
Yes, the proposal is to put you out right on Gator Bowl Blvd, just south of Talleyrand. I assume Gator Bowl Boulevard/Bay Street would be reconstructed as well, given the price tag. Economically, it makes sense assuming the ramps are nearing the point where it's time to reconstruct them (ex. I-95 Overland Bridge project). Neither Gator Bowl Blvd or the viaduct carries enough traffic to justify spending a couple hundred million for reconstruction. Mathews Bridge...yes. Hart Bridge ramps...no.
The plan is to 6-lane Gator Bowl Blvd./Bay Street. I think they have $50 million for the project cost. We really help the area, more bars and other amenities can then have access, like Intuition Ale Works. After it is complete then you can just take the Hart Bridge from Beach and be down at the Ale house.
Looking at Google maps, in addition to ramping down to Gator Bowl Blvd/Talleyrand/Bay Street, how about having Hart's MLK Expressway connector interchange with the end of the Matthews Bridge allowing Hart traffic to also access State & Union via the existing infrastructure off the Matthews Bridge. This would give Hart drivers a second pathway into Downtown.
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on October 27, 2017, 12:52:41 PM
Looking at Google maps, in addition to ramping down to Gator Bowl Blvd/Talleyrand/Bay Street, how about having Hart's MLK Expressway connector interchange with the end of the Matthews Bridge allowing Hart traffic to also access State & Union via the existing infrastructure off the Matthews Bridge. This would give Hart drivers a second pathway into Downtown.
I've always wondered why that wasn't already a thing.
Gator Bowl Boulevard turns into MLK Parkway and has a full blown interchange with the Mathews. If the ramp is demolished, access would be improved without the need to add new ramps at the Mathews Bridge.
(http://3o15h033zmpwracwx2i00rqx.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/FullSizeRender-10-3500x1909.jpg)
Click here to enlarge image: http://3o15h033zmpwracwx2i00rqx.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/FullSizeRender-10-3500x1909.jpg
Quote from: thelakelander on October 27, 2017, 08:49:27 PM
Gator Bowl Boulevard turns into MLK Parkway and has a full blown interchange with the Mathews. If the ramp is demolished, access would be improved without the need to add new ramps at the Mathews Bridge.
Lake, I get it, but I was actually thinking of creating lanes off the existing ramps to/from the Hart Bridge that feed/merge directly into the existing Mathews Bridge interchange. This would alleviate the need for a new interchange and keep traffic of the Hart Bridge moving at highway speeds into/from the feed ramps of State & Union while not mixing it with grade level traffic on Gator Bowl Blvd. It looks to me like such ramps could hug the land abutting Gator Bowl Blvd. and feed the interchange with flyovers. This would insure minimal disturbance to the neighborhood and reduce the need for much additional right of way.
Another option would be to reconfigure Gator Bowl Blvd. and the off ramps for the Hart Bridge in such a way that maybe they are "flipped" to enable a better path for the above suggestion. Essentially, the Hart Bridge would flow directly into MLK just south of the Mathews interchange allowing Hart drivers to use the existing interchange as it is. This alternate would take a bit more thought to move the Hart off ramps for Gator Bowl Blvd. but would be a "creative" variation to the above suggestion.
Asking drivers to exit the Hart expressway, mix it up for a block or two on Gator Bowl Blvd., a "local" road, and then get back on the Mathew expressway doesn't make much sense to me, especially if there is a decent amount of traffic in the area during events and/or rush hour.
(http://3o15h033zmpwracwx2i00rqx.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/FullSizeRender-10-3500x1909.jpg)
Click here to enlarge image: http://3o15h033zmpwracwx2i00rqx.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/FullSizeRender-10-3500x1909.jpg
I see what you're saying. Playing devil's advocate the issue that I see from a transportation planning perspective is that the drivers have been mixing it up for 50 years already by using the existing ramps at Duval, University Boulevard and Cesery Road to make that particular movement. Also, given the proximity of the existing interchange at the Mathews, Gator Bowl Blvd and MLK, that whole area would have to be rebuilt. Making a single flyover there would pretty much double the entire Hart Bridge removal budget to accommodate a traffic pattern that may not be justifiable for the expense. Last, replacing the aging Mathews already has a billion dollar price tag because it requires retrofitting interchanges on either end as well. Everyone has been avoiding that one for years now but at some point we'll have to replace it. Given the dynamics of the project, it would seem best to not attach design elements within its limits to the Hart Bridge viaduct demolition unless there's sufficient funding available.
One the same type subject, I have always wondered why the Hart Expressway was not continued south to I-95. If so, this would create a second limited access route across the river without using the Fuller Warren. It would increase use of the under utilized Hart and create a true inner loop around DT. I grew up in Columbus Ohio which has this sort of inner loop around DT.
The Hart Bridge Expressway was originally intended to go east towards the beach. Public opposition stopped that from happening, which is why it terminates at Beach Boulevard. Decades later, JTB accomplished what the Hart Bridge Expressway did not. At one point, there were proposals to continue the Hart Bridge Expressway viaduct west to connect with I-95 near the Prime Osborn. At that point in time, it would have separated the Northbank core from the entire riverfront. Today, many cities are looking to do away with Inner Loop Expressways. Rochester, NY is one of the latest ones. They're converting the limited access facility into a ground level boulevard, opening acres of land once dedicated to ramps and pavement, to linear parks and infill development:
http://www.cityofrochester.gov/InnerLoopEast/
Quote from: Snaketoz on October 25, 2017, 08:34:01 PM
I think the people driving over the Hart bridge to the central and western parts of downtown will now have to creep along waiting for the traffic signals that are sure to come. Wasn't that the reason the overpasses were built to begin with? This is a totally public funded gift for the fat cats. That money could be better spent on truly public needs.
The Daily Record has a good picture of the Hart Bridge in today's edition, which shows why the elevated ramp was built in the first place... to bypass industrial uses along the riverfront. You can see present-day Metro Park, the Shipyards property and what will eventually become The District were all shipyards (or the JEA Southside Generating Station in The District's case). Today, this land (as is the trend of urban waterfront land pretty much everywhere) is more suitable for private residential/commercial development and complemented with public access/greenspace.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/137894_standard.jpeg?itok=NWruCpeu)
As with all road projects, private landowners influence where these roads are eventually constructed. For instance, the Hart Expressway was originally supposed to link into I-95... until the Skinners et al exhibited enough influence to have (what is now) FDOT terminate the highway system at Beach Blvd.
Does anyone know what the environmental condition of the land under the ramps is?
Is it reasonable to think that it may prove as contaminated as the rest of the riverfront property in that area?
Quote from: KenFSU on October 30, 2017, 12:32:35 PM
Does anyone know what the environmental condition of the land under the ramps is?
Is it reasonable to think that it may prove as contaminated as the rest of the riverfront property in that area?
Yes.
Yeah, I wondered about that, too. The possible industrial contamination of the land, which is never cheap to clean up.. my unpopular opinion is that if the environmental testing proves it to be so, Khan should put some of his millions toward the entire project which will include the detoxification of the land. Not just getting the land dirt-cheap after the hardest work is done and paying to have buildings built. We the common taxpayers should not be footing the entire bill for this project for generations to come. Another reason I'm a wee bit skeptical about the sudden public safety concerns. Like I said, feels political, like Curry and Kahn may have this kinda quid pro quo thing where the rest of us (who can't afford it) pay disproportionately le$$ than those who can, y'know?
Just food for thought :)
Quote from: fieldafm on October 30, 2017, 10:33:27 AM
Quote from: Snaketoz on October 25, 2017, 08:34:01 PM
I think the people driving over the Hart bridge to the central and western parts of downtown will now have to creep along waiting for the traffic signals that are sure to come. Wasn't that the reason the overpasses were built to begin with? This is a totally public funded gift for the fat cats. That money could be better spent on truly public needs.
The Daily Record has a good picture of the Hart Bridge in today's edition, which shows why the elevated ramp was built in the first place... to bypass industrial uses along the riverfront. You can see present-day Metro Park, the Shipyards property and what will eventually become The District were all shipyards (or the JEA Southside Generating Station in The District's case). Today, this land (as is the trend of urban waterfront land pretty much everywhere) is more suitable for private residential/commercial development and complemented with public access/greenspace.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/137894_standard.jpeg?itok=NWruCpeu)
As with all road projects, private landowners influence where these roads are eventually constructed. For instance, the Hart Expressway was originally supposed to link into I-95... until the Skinners et al exhibited enough influence to have (what is now) FDOT terminate the highway system at Beach Blvd.
No offense, but The Daily record is sugar coating it a bit. The city in the 50s and 60s was desperately trying to keep white, affluent drivers away from poor, black neighborhoods. Out of site, out of mind.
Quote from: jaxrox on October 30, 2017, 03:02:24 PM
Yeah, I wondered about that, too. The possible industrial contamination of the land, which is never cheap to clean up.. my unpopular opinion is that if the environmental testing proves it to be so, Khan should put some of his millions toward the entire project which will include the detoxification of the land. Not just getting the land dirt-cheap after the hardest work is done and paying to have buildings built. We the common taxpayers should not be footing the entire bill for this project for generations to come. Another reason I'm a wee bit skeptical about the sudden public safety concerns. Like I said, feels political, like Curry and Kahn may have this kinda quid pro quo thing where the rest of us (who can't afford it) pay disproportionately le$$ than those who can, y'know?
Just food for thought :)
Environmental remediation is not impossible on either the Shipyards nor Metro Park sites. In the end, the City will be responsible for environmental remediation as the City owns the property. I would expect the City's cleanup costs to be probably in the $40-50 million dollar range and Right Of Way and public access costs in the $150-170 million dollar range, with the State probably paying another $100 million.
Quote from: Dapperdan on October 31, 2017, 12:58:15 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on October 30, 2017, 10:33:27 AM
Quote from: Snaketoz on October 25, 2017, 08:34:01 PM
I think the people driving over the Hart bridge to the central and western parts of downtown will now have to creep along waiting for the traffic signals that are sure to come. Wasn't that the reason the overpasses were built to begin with? This is a totally public funded gift for the fat cats. That money could be better spent on truly public needs.
The Daily Record has a good picture of the Hart Bridge in today's edition, which shows why the elevated ramp was built in the first place... to bypass industrial uses along the riverfront. You can see present-day Metro Park, the Shipyards property and what will eventually become The District were all shipyards (or the JEA Southside Generating Station in The District's case). Today, this land (as is the trend of urban waterfront land pretty much everywhere) is more suitable for private residential/commercial development and complemented with public access/greenspace.
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/137894_standard.jpeg?itok=NWruCpeu)
As with all road projects, private landowners influence where these roads are eventually constructed. For instance, the Hart Expressway was originally supposed to link into I-95... until the Skinners et al exhibited enough influence to have (what is now) FDOT terminate the highway system at Beach Blvd.
No offense, but The Daily record is sugar coating it a bit. The city in the 50s and 60s was desperately trying to keep white, affluent drivers away from poor, black neighborhoods. Out of site, out of mind.
While road construction through historically poor and minority neighborhoods unequivocally decimated the urban core, and the construction of the Haines Street Expressway was one such neighborhood-destroying project... a look at aerials of the riverfront from basically the turn of the century through the construction of the Hart Bridge shows that the specific ramps which are currently being considered for a tear down served a very specific and useful purpose: bypassing historic, heavy industrial uses along the riverfront.
Yeah. Those ramps never bypassed a residential area or neigborhood route of any color. That stretch was always industry and prior to that, it was marsh.
There was and still is a poor neighborhood surrounding the stadium area. Fairfield was at one time a dense urban neighborhood. Yes industry took over but there was still a lot of houses too.
Quote from: Dapperdan on October 31, 2017, 04:02:03 PM
There was and still is a poor neighborhood surrounding the stadium area. Fairfield was at one time a dense urban neighborhood. Yes industry took over but there was still a lot of houses too.
That the ramps still didn't cut off from anything. Give it up.
Yeah, the ramps have no specific direct connection with race or the neighborhood of Fairfield, which is north of the Hart Bridge Expressway. Prior to the Jags coming to town, even Gator Bowl Boulevard had not been constructed. On the other hand, Fairfield was negatively impacted by the Mathews Bridge and Haines Street Expressway. However, the expansion of the sports complex is essentially what destroyed most of Fairfield and East Jacksonville.
QuoteI would expect the City's cleanup costs to be probably in the $40-50 million dollar range and Right Of Way and public access costs in the $150-170 million dollar range, with the State probably paying another $100 million.
The remediation cost is legit, but the city already owns the land, why is the $250-270 mm needed?
Quote from: acme54321 on October 31, 2017, 09:57:32 PM
Quote from: Dapperdan on October 31, 2017, 04:02:03 PM
There was and still is a poor neighborhood surrounding the stadium area. Fairfield was at one time a dense urban neighborhood. Yes industry took over but there was still a lot of houses too.
That the ramps still didn't cut off from anything. Give it up.
Nope.
Just wondering, how exactly do you believe the Hart Bridge ramps into DT Jax negatively impacted East Jax and Fairfield? What commercial corridors did it take traffic from or outright replace? What residential areas did it take out? By elevating it, it appears that solution preserved existing industries south of the Gator Bowl. Outside of elevating it, the only other options in the 60s would have been to do a highway at ground level. Using the same alignment, that would have resulted in the loss of thousands of maritime industry related jobs. Shifting the alignment north would have forced a highway into residential neighborhoods and the stadium.
New restaurant in Riverside:
Curry, Khan and Heart
It's sounding like the Duval Delegation may not be taking this up in the Florida House. The Mayor is now at odds with the leading Repub, Jay Fant, who was supposed to carry the proposal in Tally. But Mayor Curry, evidently upset at remarks Fant made saying that he should have axed the HRO, is now supporting another candidate for Speaker of the House and it seems unlikely that Fant, and therefore the Duval Delegation, will move it through.
http://floridapolitics.com/archives/248887-quiet-october-lenny-curry-political-committee
Quote from: Tacachale on November 06, 2017, 04:46:08 PM
It's sounding like the Duval Delegation may not be taking this up in the Florida House. The Mayor is now at odds with the leading Repub, Jay Fant, who was supposed to carry the proposal in Tally. But Mayor Curry, evidently upset at remarks Fant made saying that he should have axed the HRO, is now supporting another candidate for Speaker of the House and it seems unlikely that Fant, and therefore the Duval Delegation, will move it through.
http://floridapolitics.com/archives/248887-quiet-october-lenny-curry-political-committee
If this is true, then this is disappointing but not shocking. The HRO likely would have passed even if Curry actually vetoed it. While I want the Hart bridge ramps down, if they have to stay up because Curry didn't actively veto the HRO, then I'll get over looking at the ramps.
Quote from: Tacachale on November 06, 2017, 04:46:08 PM
It's sounding like the Duval Delegation may not be taking this up in the Florida House. The Mayor is now at odds with the leading Repub, Jay Fant, who was supposed to carry the proposal in Tally. But Mayor Curry, evidently upset at remarks Fant made saying that he should have axed the HRO, is now supporting another candidate for Speaker of the House and it seems unlikely that Fant, and therefore the Duval Delegation, will move it through.
http://floridapolitics.com/archives/248887-quiet-october-lenny-curry-political-committee
He is supporting another AG candidate. This is what Paul Renner was made speaker designate to handle so I doubt they would be going through Fant anyway.
Quote from: FlaBoy on November 07, 2017, 12:13:48 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on November 06, 2017, 04:46:08 PM
It's sounding like the Duval Delegation may not be taking this up in the Florida House. The Mayor is now at odds with the leading Repub, Jay Fant, who was supposed to carry the proposal in Tally. But Mayor Curry, evidently upset at remarks Fant made saying that he should have axed the HRO, is now supporting another candidate for Speaker of the House and it seems unlikely that Fant, and therefore the Duval Delegation, will move it through.
http://floridapolitics.com/archives/248887-quiet-october-lenny-curry-political-committee
He is supporting another AG candidate. This is what Paul Renner was made speaker designate to handle so I doubt they would be going through Fant anyway.
Sorry, yes, AG.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on November 08, 2017, 07:59:14 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on November 06, 2017, 04:46:08 PM
It's sounding like the Duval Delegation may not be taking this up in the Florida House. The Mayor is now at odds with the leading Repub, Jay Fant, who was supposed to carry the proposal in Tally. But Mayor Curry, evidently upset at remarks Fant made saying that he should have axed the HRO, is now supporting another candidate for Speaker of the House and it seems unlikely that Fant, and therefore the Duval Delegation, will move it through.
http://floridapolitics.com/archives/248887-quiet-october-lenny-curry-political-committee
God, Jay Fant is the worst. A fail son of the highest order living in an enormous riverfront mansion because he and his wife inherited their daddy's money, trying to tell the rest of the City how they should live their lives. Fuck that guy forever.
If by ´worst´, you mean the second coming of the devil himself, I agree.