Some pretty blunt input, which is/was needed. Also, recommends holding off developing a convention center umtil downtown improves as a destination.
Full story:
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/10/03/study-jacksonvilles-downtown-needs-enhancement.html
Have to subscribe (I really should anyway) to see it but I'm pretty it's not going to say a whole lot we've not been saying for years already.
Might be something a few people should read before tearing down Old City Hall and the Old Courthouse for a Convention Center.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on October 03, 2017, 11:34:19 AM
recommends holding off developing a convention center umtil downtown improves as a destination.
I think that is characterizing the situation as a chicken and egg problem unnecessarily. What is the worst thing that could happen if we built a first-rate convention center right now? Create a bad impression of Jax in some people's minds? The current: here is our convention center (train station) in a part of downtown with practically no retail in sight, and here is our large hotel nearly a mile away (without reliable transportation between the two) surely isn't preferable to a new waterfront convention center next to our largest recently renovated hotel.
Granted, I haven't read the piece as I'm not currently a subscriber. Perhaps that was addressed in the piece?
Quote
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It isn't just the lack of a vibrant area near the meeting space that knocks Jacksonville off the convention circuit.
"The areas that were cited most frequently as challenges were walkability, the lack of a sufficient hotel package, airlift, the need to clean up downtown, safety and the overall lack of things to do," the report said. "... Over 60 percent of the planners interviewed or surveyed were not interested in Jacksonville and/or a new convention center without destination development."
...
The lack of a hotel package is something that would change immediately with the Courthouse site. Cleaning up Downtown is something that should be done anyway. Safety is a boogieman and only a problem of perception, which is subjective and arbitrary. I have a hard time seeing "airlift" as a bigger problem for us than for, say, Savannah.
Seems the real issues are the same ones we already know: walkability and lack of things to do downtown.
It seems any city money would be much better spent on credits towards high density residential development in downtown. Rooftops = retail. Retail = things to do. things to do spurs the need for hotels and eventually convention centers.
A "build it and they will come" doesn't seem practical when there are so many more tourist-oriented cities in Florida. A good convention center would be great, but you have to give the visitors place to go downtown. Best way to do that is to create perpetual retail demand from residents.
Quote from: Tacachale on October 03, 2017, 12:41:18 PM
Quote
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It isn't just the lack of a vibrant area near the meeting space that knocks Jacksonville off the convention circuit.
"The areas that were cited most frequently as challenges were walkability, the lack of a sufficient hotel package, airlift, the need to clean up downtown, safety and the overall lack of things to do," the report said. "... Over 60 percent of the planners interviewed or surveyed were not interested in Jacksonville and/or a new convention center without destination development."
...
The lack of a hotel package is something that would change immediately with the Courthouse site. Cleaning up Downtown is something that should be done anyway. Safety is a boogieman and only a problem of perception, which is subjective and arbitrary. I have a hard time seeing "airlift" as a bigger problem for us than for, say, Savannah.
Seems the real issues are the same ones we already know: walkability and lack of things to do downtown.
In other words, not much we've not been discussing here for years already.
Jax already has a convention center and events happening in it. We don't necessarily need a "new" one. We need to relocate and upgrade the existing facility. Moving it to the courthouse site and combining with the Hyatt and its meeting facilities does just that. The move basically builds in making the Elbow a better destination and frees up the Prime Osborn to bring passenger rail back downtown. This thing isn't rocket science. It should be done simultaneously with everything else DT needs.
^Well stated.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on October 03, 2017, 12:36:27 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on October 03, 2017, 12:19:43 PM
What is the worst thing that could happen if we built a first-rate convention center right now?
Are you serious? How about we wasted hundreds of millions when that money could go to, oh i don't know, any of the 50 other projects that could improve downtown and actually draw visitors and tourists?
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that a convention center of decent quality would more or less pay for itself through the bed tax alone, not counting the increased sales tax revenue. I'm not aware of 50 other projects that would pay for themselves in that way.
If the city would stop spending money on "reports" that basically tell us what we already know, we could probably save enough to build a new convention center...and a downtown aquarium!
Quote from: Todd_Parker on October 03, 2017, 04:05:11 PM
If the city would stop spending money on "reports" that basically tell us what we already know, we could probably save enough to build a new convention center...and a downtown aquarium!
Don't forget the giant ferris wheel.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 03, 2017, 02:14:59 PM
Jax already has a convention center and events happening in it. We don't necessarily need a "new" one. We need to relocate and upgrade the existing facility. Moving it to the courthouse site and combining with the Hyatt and its meeting facilities does just that. The move basically builds in making the Elbow a better destination and frees up the Prime Osborn to bring passenger rail back downtown. This thing isn't rocket science. It should be done simultaneously with everything else DT needs.
Yes!
The existing convention center is mostly a place for events that draw locals and short distance drive-in tourists, right? The whole point is that is doesn't draw major conventions now. From the article summation posted here, just solving the hotel issue alone won't make it a destination for conventions either.
And no, the bed tax would not come close to paying for debt service on the building. This is even more true now that the Stadium is getting more of that revenue than ever. Not to mention there would be an operating loss to boot.
QuoteThe existing convention center is mostly a place for events that draw locals and short distance drive-in tourists, right? The whole point is that is doesn't draw major conventions now. From the article summation posted here, just solving the hotel issue alone won't make it a destination for conventions either.
The point I've been trying to make all these years is it doesn't need to draw "major" conventions. It needs to be better than what it is today and in a location that allows it to become a part of a larger pedestrian scale scene. Moving it next to the Hyatt isn't the only issue a move resolves. It's all about clustering, complementing uses within a compact pedestrian scale setting. Here's a few more positives that come with moving the convention center out of the old passenger rail terminal:
1. Enables the Hyatt to book larger events and more rooms.
2. Combined with the Hyatt's meeting space, you reduce the need for a full new construction convention center. All you really need is an exhibition hall, since the Hyatt already has decent sized meeting and ballroom spaces.
3. Places visitors within walking distance of the restaurants and retailers in the Elbow and the Landing. More foot traffic, even if its local, means more business for struggling downtown retailers. Right now, Prime Osborn traffic has no reason to drive the extra mile from I-95's ramps.
4. The Prime Osborn can be converted back into a passenger rail terminal, immediately adjacent to the transportation center now under construction.
5. Most affordable option for COJ, in that it allows the city to leverage the property it already owns as the public component of a P3 project.
Quote from: vicupstate on October 03, 2017, 10:55:51 PM
And no, the bed tax would not come close to paying for debt service on the building. This is even more true now that the Stadium is getting more of that revenue than ever.
Correct. The bed tax is pretty much going to the Jags at this point. However, you're looking at things from a traditional convention center financing situation where the city is funding 100%. I'm not sure that is the case in this non-conventional situation.
QuoteNot to mention there would be an operating loss to boot.
All depends on the financing structure. For example, it's undetermined on if the city will end up building something or a private entity including some additional space as a part of a larger mixed-use project. If the city's financial contribution is preparing the property for redevelopment and the property itself, the financial situation changes.
^^ All of your bullet points are valid, but if this results in merely moving the existing events then it won't make much difference UNLESS the center visitors are NOT locals. If I go to a Gun Show or Home Show or whatever at the new center and I live on the West side, am I going to go to the Elbow or the Landing afterwards? Not likely. The new center will need to attract conventions that we currently don't get. The article seems to imply that won't change simply from the move.
Quote from: vicupstate on October 04, 2017, 08:30:59 AM
^^ All of your bullet points are valid, but if this results in merely moving the existing events then it won't make much difference UNLESS the center visitors are NOT locals. If I go to a Gun Show or Home Show or whatever at the new center and I live on the West side, am I going to go to the Elbow or the Landing afterwards? Not likely. The new center will need to attract conventions that we currently don't get. The article seems to imply that won't change simply from the move.
I disagree with that. If you parked and were down there, you would be much more likely to grab lunch at Olio or Cowford, especially if with your significant other. At the Prime, you certainly would not.
The move would certainly do both: generate more foot traffic in the Elbow and draw more regional conventions. Nobody says it will or has to become a major convention center player but as Lake noted, it will do much more than it does now if moved to a more synergistic location.
Quote from: vicupstate on October 04, 2017, 08:30:59 AM
^^ All of your bullet points are valid, but if this results in merely moving the existing events then it won't make much difference UNLESS the center visitors are NOT locals. If I go to a Gun Show or Home Show or whatever at the new center and I live on the West side, am I going to go to the Elbow or the Landing afterwards? Not likely. The new center will need to attract conventions that we currently don't get. The article seems to imply that won't change simply from the move.
The Prime Osborn already draws events that don't cater exclusively to locals. The Black Expo is an example of that. Locals also eat out. The restaurant scenes in Riverside and San Marco are examples of emerging regional dining districts driven by locals. With that said, a larger exhibition hall adjacent to the Hyatt does result in having the capacity to draw and keep larger events in Jax. They may not be "major" like what Orlando draws. They're more likely to the scale of events that outgrew our facility and moved to larger centers like Daytona's Ocean Center. The cheerleading conference we lost years ago is an example of this.
^Yeah, I don't see why attendees would have to be out of towners to have an impact. The idea that locals won't go to the bars and restaurants, or even stay at hotels, is false.
Last year I went to an academic conference in Savannah. Many if not most folks there were from the area, but they went out to the bars and restaurants at night, and many even stayed at the hotel or others nearby.
The Cheer-leading event won't come back unless the facility is bigger, will it be bigger?
Locals can go to the Landing/Elbow any time they want. Yeah, they may go when they happen to be nearby, but if they would have eaten on the Westside (or wherever they hail locally), then it isn't 'new' money in the economy anyway.
While there might be some 'juice' from moving a center that primarily caters to locals, it isn't going to near enough, IMO, to justify this level of spending.
In order to be worthwhile, the new center will need to be some combination of 1) bigger, 2) better, 3)capable of expanding the market of conventions willing and able to come here 4) create synergy with other things 5) extend the stay (ideally such that it puts more heads in beds) of conventioneers.
If it won't check at LEAST 3 of those boxes, it wouldn't be worth it, IMO. Number 2 and 4 are pretty much a given, be but there needs to be more than that. A marginally overall improvement is not sufficient unless somebody else is paying for this thing, which seems like a fantasy to me.
I'd argue that Westsiders spending money Downtown serves our goal of improving Downtown.
A relocated center would be larger than the current Prime Osborn. It would achieve at least 4 of 5 five things Vic mentiined in his most recent post. However, achieving them doesn't mean Jax will attract or have the capacity to handle the "major" conventions going to first tier markets.
In addition, all the convention center focused debate also avoids an obvious dilemma of maintaining status quo. Leaving it in the Prime Osborn severly limits the potential of bringing passenger rail back downtown, along with integrated TOD surrounding it. Also, flat out getting out of the business only hurts downtown economically by running off the remaining decent events the Prime Osborn still hosts.
We all pretty much agree that the convention center needs to be moved and bigger and the building repurposed but we have to be honest about what kind of undertaken a new convention center in any form would be. A sobering thought is that Nashville's convention center costs an incredible $623 million back in 2012 and they needed an extra $20 million this year for improvements. Even though they won't build anything near as extravagant, would that kind of investment be worth it for whatever extra visitors and economic impact it would bring? The naysayers about Jacksonville's readiness for a new center may have a point.
To be fair, Nashville's center and anything built in Jax are apples and oranges. Spending $100 million in public funds locally would be overboard to me.
To further shed light on this, the PO's exhibition hall is 78,500sf. Nashville 's Music City Center's is 350,000sf. Several previous studies have recommended we'll be fine with something slightly larger, that's closer to 100,000sf than 350k sf. Nashville's center was built from the ground up and covers over 2.1 million sf overall. We don't need to build from scratch since the Hyatt and its meeting space are already there. We're also not in Nashville's league in this particular industry. In simple terms, we need a box the size of a Walmart immediately adjacent to the Hyatt, not the Taj Mahal.
True its not fair to compare what theses cities do but like Nashville the goal is to get a significantly bigger slice of the convention industry pie. Anything less and you may as well make do with what we have until the city becomes much more of a destination. Another set of concerns I have is with the city building a new convention center and "partnering" with the Hyatt for additional space. True it will bring the cost of construction way down but I'm a little wary about this arrangement for the following reasons:
Wouldn't the fact that a convention booking the new main hall having to go across the street to use ancillary meeting space put us at a disadvantage with similar size venues that have those rooms right there in the same location?
Given that there would most likely be an entity managing the new convention center separate from the Hyatt booking its own events in their ballrooms, wouldn't the possible problem of space availability hamper efforts to draw possible out-of-town conventions?
More importantly, since a decent size convention would likely have no choice but to use Hyatt's meeting rooms and facilities, what would prevent the new hotel ownership that invested all that money in it from practicing collusion, gouging, undercutting, or any other strong-armed tactics to maximize revenue? For example, if an exhibitor wanting to use the new hall and needed the Hyatt's meeting space, couldn't the hotel require the exhibitor to pre-book or put deposits down on more hotel rooms and other services they may not need just to be able to utilize their space? Wouldn't that leverage the Hyatt has dissuade any other hotel operators from setting up in the core?
You don't build a Nashville sized center just because you want a bigger piece of the market pie. Scale still applies. Everything else you mentioned can be dealt with pretty easy. There's several different models out there that are a success, that don't involve doing or investing what some of the naysay theories suggest.
Jacksonville, home of the "Amazon.com" Convention Center!
Think of the trade shows........................