So I was doing some thinking and Redditing (a dangerous combination, I know), and after looking back through some other threads about the Town Center, I came up with an idea of a possible first step in cleaning up traffic in the area.
A picture demonstrating the proposal is attached, but the idea is essentially this:
- Remove vehicle access on River City Drive.
- Remove parking on River City Drive.
- Construct a parking garage and retention pond near the back of the property, next to I-295.
- Using the path of the former roadway on River City Drive, construct a trolley/streetcar (referred to as PeopleMover in the image) system traveling from just above Big Island Drive to Midtown Parkway.
- Place "stations" at each existing intersection, including the ones removed due to lack of necessity.
- Construct a "concourse" type walkway/PeopleMover track from Nordstrom to the parking garage.
- Turn the old parking lanes on River City Drive into walking/greenspace.
(http://i.imgur.com/BcK0gp2.jpg)
So that's basically the idea. I welcome thoughts, criticism, and even more optimistic wishful thinking.
Good thoughts indeed.
My line of thinking was solely about getting a new line of ingress/egress to the shopping area without widening the existing road space.
My perspective is that there aren't enough ways to get around the place. Having Town Center Parkway as the sole method is just inadequate. The biggest choke point is Gate Parkway and JTB.
You have a major arterial feeding it from 2 directions plus the business traffic on Gate is just too much for a single access point.
So my thought is to rebalance the traffic flow by creating a second entry that doesn't rely on JTB/Gate or Town Center Parkway.
Extend St John's Bluff south pass Town Center Parkway between Gate Gas and Baptist Emergency. Take it between Topgolf and the condos along the JEA ROW, built 2-3 ingress/egress points on the backside of SJTC and then bridge St John's Bluff over JTB and connect it with Gate Parkway between the FBI building and the new Hines development.
This pushes "pass through" traffic away from Town Center Parkway who need to reach Gate. Keeps local traffic off 295 for the 2 miles between exits. Permits access to SJTC from north and south points without hitting the Gate/JTB bottleneck.
This will also facilitate north/south flow to Ikea without having to get on 295.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4308/36089069102_298090c7f9_z.jpg)
Just my 2 cents.
How about:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/12KiGLydHEdak8/giphy.gif)
Quote from: spuwho on July 30, 2017, 02:17:49 AM
Good thoughts indeed.
My line of thinking was solely about getting a new line of ingress/egress to the shopping area without widening the existing road space.
My perspective is that there aren't enough ways to get around the place. Having Town Center Parkway as the sole method is just inadequate. The biggest choke point is Gate Parkway and JTB.
You have a major arterial feeding it from 2 directions plus the business traffic on Gate is just too much for a single access point.
So my thought is to rebalance the traffic flow by creating a second entry that doesn't rely on JTB/Gate or Town Center Parkway.
Extend St John's Bluff south pass Town Center Parkway between Gate Gas and Baptist Emergency. Take it between Topgolf and the condos along the JEA ROW, built 2-3 ingress/egress points on the backside of SJTC and then bridge St John's Bluff over JTB and connect it with Gate Parkway between the FBI building and the new Hines development.
This pushes "pass through" traffic away from Town Center Parkway who need to reach Gate. Keeps local traffic off 295 for the 2 miles between exits. Permits access to SJTC from north and south points without hitting the Gate/JTB bottleneck.
This will also facilitate north/south flow to Ikea without having to get on 295.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4308/36089069102_298090c7f9_z.jpg)
Just my 2 cents.
This would actually work really well with my concept, because you create this sort of outer loop around the central area, and plus, it opens space for new development while that last turn can actually connect with the parking garage of my concept. Although I'm not sure how the FBI would feel about having a new road go that close alongside their office. I'd imagine the possibility of having to move the bridge over to land on the currently empty parcel on the other side of the FBI from Southside Quarter, or needing to move even deeper
into Southside Quarter and work with them to fit the bridge and end point. And my only other concern would be making sure to fit it, considering all the power lines around that area.
A few things to consider:
1. The people mover thing/parking garage basically eliminates the space for the final anchor/retail expansion area. The developer loses money in this situation, as opposed to the original plan, which would make them money.
2. The lifestyle center concept is a move from a traditional mall, that also integrates vehicular accessibility and visibility for all retailers. Removing the spaces in front of the retailers on the main strip hurts their visibility and leasing potential.
3. SJTC is a private development. Public transit is typically heavily subsidized. Who pays for the people mover? How does that impact leasing rates? If JTA, is this a better use of public investment than serving vunerable populations?
4. Same thing goes for the green road. With an overpass over JTB, you're looking at spending at least $100 million, not including land acquisition costs. How are those funds recouped?
Ultimately, SJTC is considered to be a highly profitable and successful retail center as is. While congested coming in from Gate Parkway, it still is pretty easy to get there via I-295 from the east. I imagine the developer probably isn't too concerned about traffic or modifying something that appears to work for them. Maybe 10 years down the road, when it's time for a renovation, things will need to change to meet future retailing trends.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 30, 2017, 12:48:37 PM
A few things to consider:
1. The people mover thing/parking garage basically eliminates the space for the final anchor/retail expansion area. The developer loses money in this situation, as opposed to the original plan, which would make them money.
2. The lifestyle center concept is a move from a traditional mall, that also integrates vehicular accessibility and visibility for all retailers. Removing the spaces in front of the retailers on the main strip hurts their visibility and leasing potential.
3. SJTC is a private development. Public transit is typically heavily subsidized. Who pays for the people mover? How does that impact leasing rates? If JTA, is this a better use of public investment than serving vunerable populations?
4. Same thing goes for the green road. With an overpass over JTB, you're looking at spending at least $100 million, not including land acquisition costs. How are those funds recouped?
1. Not necessarily. By consolidating a lot parking into one structure, you can tear up the parking lots closer to the mall itself, like across from Dillards, and open up those spaces to more centralized anchor space.
2. This is a fair point, although part of the idea is that the intersections still enable an extent of vehicular accessibility, while making the area more friendly for pedestrians.
3. The financials of this are something I didn't consider, and I can agree that you're likely correct in this aspect.
4. I'd think that easing access to the complex in general would help in making Town Center more of an accessible option for people to continue shopping, instead of avoiding the area entirely because of congestion.
You're right, it is a profitable center, but also one that's becoming problematic. I can agree, however, that anything like this would be decades down the road as the area evolves.
Quote from: spuwho on July 30, 2017, 02:17:49 AM
Good thoughts indeed.
My line of thinking was solely about getting a new line of ingress/egress to the shopping area without widening the existing road space.
My perspective is that there aren't enough ways to get around the place. Having Town Center Parkway as the sole method is just inadequate. The biggest choke point is Gate Parkway and JTB.
You have a major arterial feeding it from 2 directions plus the business traffic on Gate is just too much for a single access point.
So my thought is to rebalance the traffic flow by creating a second entry that doesn't rely on JTB/Gate or Town Center Parkway.
Extend St John's Bluff south pass Town Center Parkway between Gate Gas and Baptist Emergency. Take it between Topgolf and the condos along the JEA ROW, built 2-3 ingress/egress points on the backside of SJTC and then bridge St John's Bluff over JTB and connect it with Gate Parkway between the FBI building and the new Hines development.
This pushes "pass through" traffic away from Town Center Parkway who need to reach Gate. Keeps local traffic off 295 for the 2 miles between exits. Permits access to SJTC from north and south points without hitting the Gate/JTB bottleneck.
This will also facilitate north/south flow to Ikea without having to get on 295.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4308/36089069102_298090c7f9_z.jpg)
Just my 2 cents.
This is exactly what is needed! The traffic over there is going to be worse than Wells Rd. in Orange Park! Its already getting there! This will have to happen at some point!
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 30, 2017, 02:17:16 PM
1. Not necessarily. By consolidating a lot parking into one structure, you can tear up the parking lots closer to the mall itself, like across from Dillards, and open up those spaces to more centralized anchor space.
I hadn't factored in the cost of structured parking. Parking garages are pretty expensive. Something crazy like $15k to $20k per space to construct. That's a major reason the center was built with surface lots. A massive garage without massive expansion is a money loser for the developer. This is just something to be aware of, when considering various solutions.
Quote2. This is a fair point, although part of the idea is that the intersections still enable an extent of vehicular accessibility, while making the area more friendly for pedestrians.
It's (the central corridor) pretty friendly for pedestrians now. Wide sidewalks, diagonal parking, two-lane road, lots of marked mid-block crossings. It's a essentially a remake of a small town Main Street. It has a nice balance, that offers retailers both pedestrian and vehicular visibility and access.
Quote3. The financials of this are something I didn't consider, and I can agree that you're likely correct in this aspect.
I think, when addressing a private property like the SJTC, the financials will be the largest challenge to overcome. If the financials don't make sense for the landlord and the tenants, suggested improvements won't happen.
Quote4. I'd think that easing access to the complex in general would help in making Town Center more of an accessible option for people to continue shopping, instead of avoiding the area entirely because of congestion.
You're right, it is a profitable center, but also one that's becoming problematic. I can agree, however, that anything like this would be decades down the road as the area evolves.
But is SJTC creating all the traffic or is the additional development along Town Center Parkway (all owned by different entities) contributing to the problem? If I'm Simon (owner of SJTC), I would not be too happy about funding road improvements to alleviate additional traffic created by Markets at Town Center (Hines), Town Center Promenade (Core Property Capital), The Strand (Preferred Growth Properties), Top Golf, etc.
Also, there are similiar and larger regional shopping centers all across the state, located on corridors with more traffic and gridlock. One thing to do, while considering recommendations, is to conduct a peer review of centers with similiar access conditions. Are people avoiding places like Mall at Millenia, Fashion Square or Florida Mall in Orlando? How about Avenura Mall and Dadeland Mall in South Florida or Countryside Mall in Clearwater? Has congestion on Blanding and Wells (worse than SJTC) hurt business at Orange Park Mall? If so, how are these places dealing with the situation?
Lakelander, it is about learning from the past and not repeating the same mistakes! That is what is happening at Town Center right now! Millenia is a parking lot! I refuse to go there. I could PROBABLY get into Florida Mall! What Orlando and South Florida have are more tourists. That makes the traffic even worse. I-4 going to anywhere in Orlando on a Saturday is a joke. From Deland to Kissimmee, you're going to be sitting in traffic!
Jax's traffic problems, like Town Center, are the result of poor planning! There are only two ways out of that place! The map with the St. John's Bluff Extension should have been done when they opened SJTC! Even without the bridge to Gate Pkwy., that would still be much needed relief.
COJ funding a special road to promote or facilitate development or improvement there of isnt unheard of.
The FEC overpass for Avenues Walk activated a locked property to WalMart.
The reconstruction of Collins Road for Costco.
So dropping a few million to improve traffic flow around a retail corridor isnt the exception.
The recent 2300 car garage built by Gramercy Woods on Southside cost $22 Million. But I concur that retail developers hate building parking garages. Hospitals on the other hand just love them!
I get the sustainability and all on the road side, but a COJ councilman might see the $100M on a new road and bridge as an investment to protect a valuable tax revenue source. And SJTC has been a literal cash cow for the city.
From my perspective, adding another road isn't learning from our mistakes of the past. It's repeating them. You can't out-road build congestion. I grew up in Central Florida. Congestion is all relative. I-4 is a parking lot right up until you sit in traffic in I-85 in Atlanta, I-5 in LA or I-90 in Chicago. At that point, I-4 congestion feels more like driving on the Hart Bridge Expressway. In the case of Millenia, take John Young Parkway and come in the back way. Same goes for SJTC. Enter from I-295 instead of Gate Parkway.
Anyway, the ultimate mistake is most of our suburban areas should not have been designed the way they were. It's a mistake that dates back to the mid-20th century. A popular shopping center and auto congestion in the vicinity is just a microcosm of a larger issue where transportation infrastructure investments and land use policies aren't well integrated to support one another. Adding a $100 million secondary road isn't going to fix the issue and isn't a fair improvement forced upon the developer (who is not responsible for all the traffic) or taxpayers. As the area develops out, it's going fill up just like Town Center Parkway. The solution is a combination of embracing some congestion, modifying land use to add a lot more density, and alternative modes of citywide mobility, that also tie into the area.
One of the better examples in the state is probably Dadeland Mall. Its accessible to multiple roads and they all still back up a lot more than anything we can imagine happening with Town Center Parkway. At least there, you have the option of not driving there at all. You can access it via two Metrorail stations and both stations have a ton of TOD, giving people the option of living walking and playing, if they desire.
QuoteCOJ funding a special road to promote or facilitate development or improvement there of isnt unheard of.
Why should taxpayers have the burden placed on their backs? Any money spent here is money not spent in other areas and this particular area already has tons of public money being invested in it. This is also a Transportation Management Area that pays concurrency fees, which are actually higher than mobility fees. Essentially, most of these monies go to payback the Skinner Family for roads, sidewalks, etc that were constructed to make the land developable (ex. Gate Parkway, Town Center Parkway, etc.). With that said, don't expect much change in the roadway network or its intersections any time soon. Just get used to sitting in traffic.
Quote from: spuwho on July 30, 2017, 03:55:24 PM
The FEC overpass for Avenues Walk activated a locked property to WalMart.
The reconstruction of Collins Road for Costco.
So dropping a few million to improve traffic flow around a retail corridor isnt the exception.
The bridge over FEC was funded by the developer of Avenues Walk to access their property, not COJ or FDOT. There's no Avenues Walk without it. A similar example would be the developer of SJTC paying for their internal road system off Town Center Parkway.
Collins wasn't widened from Blanding to Old Middleburg Road for Costco. Its widening has been proposed at least since 2000 and the BJP. I think you're referring to the Parramore Road extension. That's a questionable investment but it's peanuts ($2.5 million to connect the shopping center to Youngerman Circle) compared to building a bridge over a JTB interchange to connect with Gate Parkway.
QuoteThe recent 2300 car garage built by Gramercy Woods on Southside cost $22 Million. But I concur that retail developers hate building parking garages. Hospitals on the other hand just love them!
For $22 million, you could build an IKEA store, including the surface lot. If you had to drop an additional $20 million for a garage, there's a good chance your retail project ends up like East San Marco. Your proforma for that particular retail model takes a big hit, unless you're in a market that can make up for it. Jax isn't that type of retail market.
QuoteI get the sustainability and all on the road side, but a COJ councilman might see the $100M on a new road and bridge as an investment to protect a valuable tax revenue source. And SJTC has been a literal cash cow for the city.
That councilmember would be ran out of office. Simon doesn't need Jacksonville's help. They're doing just fine on their own. With that said, cash cow is all relative. Has the tax revenue surpassed the surrounding investment and continued maintenance costs in infrastructure, making the area accessible for projects like SJTC? I doubt it. Especially, when an additional $140 million is currently being invested in express lanes to ease congestion in the vicinity.
Quote from: Adam White on July 30, 2017, 03:41:06 AM
How about:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/12KiGLydHEdak8/giphy.gif)
Hahahaha!
QuoteThat councilmember would be ran out of offThey ice. Simon doesn't need Jacksonville's help. They're doing just fine on their own. With that said, cash cow is all relative. Has the tax revenue surpassed the surrounding investment and continued maintenance costs in infrastructure, making the area accessible for projects like SJTC? I doubt it. Especially, when an additional $140 million is currently being invested in express lanes to ease congestion in the vicinity.
« Last Edit: Today at 04:35:15 PM by thelakelander »
Those express lanes aren't really going to help. They are still on I-295! Adding express lanes just makes the commute a little faster for those willing to pay the toll. It's an illusion of progress. Its still concentrated just in the I-295 right-of-way! Adding a few connecting streets, at least, gives someone another way out in case something goes wrong!
Right now, that particular shopping center has eight different entrances to Town Center Parkway. Town Center Parkway allows for auto connectivity to either Gate, St. Johns Bluff or I-295. There's also a pedestrian connection to Gate Parkway under JTB behind Markets at Town Center.
Would it be nice to have more of a gridded street network at SJTC, Avenues or OPM? Sure. Is it worth something upwards of $50 to $100 million? Right now, no way. Years down the road.....who knows. With that said, presently, it's obvious the shopping center does just fine "as is", meaning don't expect the developer to front something like that. Without something larger on the table (like a proposal for massive infill around it), don't expect COJ or JEA to toss in much either.
There's congestion but it's definitely not hurting business in the area. Like Millenia in Orlando, for everyone who won't go because of congestion, there's more that will deal with the extra five to ten minutes it may take to get from the parking lot to JTB, heading west on Town Center Parkway. Plus, you'll always have those that will access the area opposite the herd (ex. from the east instead of the west). There's no real congestion accessing the area from I-295.
I never realize that pedestrian underpass is back there until someone says something!
I'm glad you mentioned that, Lakelander! The sidewalks in that area (in all of Jacksonville) need to be on both sides of the street to encourage walking. This is just weird to me! Its the same situation in Oakleaf Town Center. That's what I mean by poor planning!
How about this, as a much more affordable solution:
Florida is in love with U-Turns. It is simply a fact of life down here that this is the way things are done. Yet, Town Center Parkway has about 10 traffic lights in one mile, to get all of that traffic in and out. What if there were only a couple of lights (Big Island and ??) and for the entire rest of the strip from Gate to 295, there was nothing but turnaround points? (I realize there may need to be lights on those but far shorter cycle times than currently required for full intersections.) You want to shop over there, at that store on the left? You drive past it, do your U-turn, and turn right into the place.
I've been to many shopping areas where this is the norm. There are no 4-cycle lights, where you sit for an eternity. This would require minimum construction cost and would have to be better than what is currently there.
Quote from: TimmyB on July 30, 2017, 08:31:45 PM
How about this, as a much more affordable solution:
Florida is in love with U-Turns. It is simply a fact of life down here that this is the way things are done. Yet, Town Center Parkway has about 10 traffic lights in one mile, to get all of that traffic in and out. What if there were only a couple of lights (Big Island and ??) and for the entire rest of the strip from Gate to 295, there was nothing but turnaround points? (I realize there may need to be lights on those but far shorter cycle times than currently required for full intersections.) You want to shop over there, at that store on the left? You drive past it, do your U-turn, and turn right into the place.
I've been to many shopping areas where this is the norm. There are no 4-cycle lights, where you sit for an eternity. This would require minimum construction cost and would have to be better than what is currently there
I do that with the current set up of Town Center. Its like this at Blanding and Argyle Forest! Going South, there is a U-Turn signal to turn back to Youngerman Cir. where the stores are located! I think Atlantic and Kernan is set up like this after the overpass to get to Wal-Mart!
Quote from: SightseerLounge on July 30, 2017, 06:04:36 PM
Those express lanes aren't really going to help. They are still on I-295! Adding express lanes just makes the commute a little faster for those willing to pay the toll. It's an illusion of progress. Its still concentrated just in the I-295 right-of-way! Adding a few connecting streets, at least, gives someone another way out in case something goes wrong!
Express Lanes alleviate short-trip interstate traffic while promoting the free-flow of long-trip interstate traffic, and adding additional interchanges with connecting streets just adds more turbulence points for traffic to get slowed down. Express lanes aren't perfect, but they are a step in the right direction and are a better choice than just adding more lanes.
i have solved this issue. for myself. i only go to the 1000000000 locations in jax that are better than sjtc.
we've got a lot better things to worry about than how bad traffic is at THE MALL. the developers overbuilt and continue to do so. let them figure it out and pay for it
Dismantle the Skyway downtown, transport the pieces to SJTC and re-assemble it there.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 30, 2017, 04:04:52 PM
From my perspective, adding another road isn't learning from our mistakes of the past. It's repeating them. You can't out-road build congestion. I grew up in Central Florida. Congestion is all relative. I-4 is a parking lot right up until you sit in traffic in I-85 in Atlanta, I-5 in LA or I-90 in Chicago. At that point, I-4 congestion feels more like driving on the Hart Bridge Expressway. In the case of Millenia, take John Young Parkway and come in the back way. Same goes for SJTC. Enter from I-295 instead of Gate Parkway.
Anyway, the ultimate mistake is most of our suburban areas should not have been designed the way they were. It's a mistake that dates back to the mid-20th century. A popular shopping center and auto congestion in the vicinity is just a microcosm of a larger issue where transportation infrastructure investments and land use policies aren't well integrated to support one another. Adding a $100 million secondary road isn't going to fix the issue and isn't a fair improvement forced upon the developer (who is not responsible for all the traffic) or taxpayers. As the area develops out, it's going fill up just like Town Center Parkway. The solution is a combination of embracing some congestion, modifying land use to add a lot more density, and alternative modes of citywide mobility, that also tie into the area.
One of the better examples in the state is probably Dadeland Mall. Its accessible to multiple roads and they all still back up a lot more than anything we can imagine happening with Town Center Parkway. At least there, you have the option of not driving there at all. You can access it via two Metrorail stations and both stations have a ton of TOD, giving people the option of living walking and playing, if they desire.
I completely agree with your point that simply adding a new road will not solve any problems. And what I would like to emphasize again is "alternative modes of citywide mobility". The parking inefficiency is one of the largest problems that actually cause traffic congestion. Simply adding parking space is proven to be inefficient as well.
In London they have implemented smart parking lot sensor system through near city-wide LPWAN (low-power wide-area network) developed by Nwave (https://www.nwave.io/parking-technology/). http://www.weightless.org/news/first-weightlessn-network-goes-live-in-london-nwave-and-arkessa-partner here is a link to the article.
If you ever been to London, they you know how devastating the traffic can be there. The two cities that can be worse, in my personal experience are LA and Moscow. I think that implementing technological solutions that are aimed at actually boosting the efficiency of infrastructure is the way to go, since we cannot simply redo the infrastructure from ground up.
I think Town Center Pkwy is a good candidate to have "Michigan lefts". As much as I loathe them sometimes, they do work well.
It's where to go left you have to turn right and then turn around at a crossover.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_left#/media/File:MichiganLeftSigns.png)
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on September 04, 2017, 03:13:25 PM
Dismantle the Skyway downtown, transport the pieces to SJTC and re-assemble it there.
Not far from realistic. A skyway style system along Gate Parkway from Southside Blvd to I-295 with a spur along Town Center Drive to UNF seems like a good idea.
Quote from: Sonic101 on April 23, 2018, 07:14:29 AM
I think Town Center Pkwy is a good candidate to have "Michigan lefts". As much as I loathe them sometimes, they do work well.
It's where to go left you have to turn right and then turn around at a crossover.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_left#/media/File:MichiganLeftSigns.png)
Does something keep you from going straight and then just making a left at the intersection, instead of turning right?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on April 24, 2018, 01:11:55 AM
Quote from: Sonic101 on April 23, 2018, 07:14:29 AM
I think Town Center Pkwy is a good candidate to have "Michigan lefts". As much as I loathe them sometimes, they do work well.
It's where to go left you have to turn right and then turn around at a crossover.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_left#/media/File:MichiganLeftSigns.png)
Does something keep you from going straight and then just making a left at the intersection, instead of turning right?
The law? lol..."no left turn" signs. Basically, the intersection is only for through traffic...you eliminate left turns from the light cycle and increase safety for people who dont know how to make a left at a busy intersection. Basically everybody wins except the people who need to make a left, they have to drive farther and it takes longer. That's the tradeoff. But I dont know if it would actually help with SJTC traffic flows or not.
Signage and traffic lights. The only way you could make a left is to wait for traffic to clear in the opposite direction, and with huge no turns signs, you will learn quickly not to do it.
In New Jersey they are called Jughandles. All turns exit before the intersection and make a left or right on the smaller cross street.
Like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9609602,-74.9308812,182m/data=!3m1!1e3
Here is the street view.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9608084,-74.9316001,3a,75y,77.42h,80.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPzAABJ1YIrKMlc_5JiT_gg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
And from the cross street:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.960867,-74.930504,3a,75y,276.66h,73.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSip6qPyGl90T2HOqfPANOA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Once you enter the jughandle, you can make an effective left, right or u-turn back on to the main highway.
It really only works when people get used to it as they are in Jersey. But once they get used to it, it works pretty well.
Quote from: Lostwave on April 24, 2018, 09:33:49 AM
Signage and traffic lights. The only way you could make a left is to wait for traffic to clear in the opposite direction, and with huge no turns signs, you will learn quickly not to do it.
In New Jersey they are called Jughandles. All turns exit before the intersection and make a left or right on the smaller cross street.
Like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9609602,-74.9308812,182m/data=!3m1!1e3
Here is the street view.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9608084,-74.9316001,3a,75y,77.42h,80.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPzAABJ1YIrKMlc_5JiT_gg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
And from the cross street:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.960867,-74.930504,3a,75y,276.66h,73.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSip6qPyGl90T2HOqfPANOA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Once you enter the jughandle, you can make an effective left, right or u-turn back on to the main highway.
It really only works when people get used to it as they are in Jersey. But once they get used to it, it works pretty well.
That's interesting, but I would think that unless the cross street doesn't have much traffic, it's going to be messy for those turning left on the "ramp" since there only needs to be 2-3 cars at that light to prevent you from having enough room to enter that lane.
Quote from: Lostwave on April 24, 2018, 09:33:49 AM
Signage and traffic lights. The only way you could make a left is to wait for traffic to clear in the opposite direction, and with huge no turns signs, you will learn quickly not to do it.
In New Jersey they are called Jughandles. All turns exit before the intersection and make a left or right on the smaller cross street.
Like here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9609602,-74.9308812,182m/data=!3m1!1e3
Here is the street view.
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9608084,-74.9316001,3a,75y,77.42h,80.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPzAABJ1YIrKMlc_5JiT_gg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
And from the cross street:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.960867,-74.930504,3a,75y,276.66h,73.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sSip6qPyGl90T2HOqfPANOA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Once you enter the jughandle, you can make an effective left, right or u-turn back on to the main highway.
It really only works when people get used to it as they are in Jersey. But once they get used to it, it works pretty well.
Maybe I'm missing something, but those don't look like they facilitate left turns. It looks like you turn left at the intersection.
Edit: I think I get it now. But the drivers on the cross street turn left at the intersection,
right correct?
Just to be clear, Jughandles (or Jersey lefts) are different from Michigan lefts. They have their own set of pros and cons, though similar.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 24, 2018, 10:31:56 AM
Just to be clear, Jughandles (or Jersey lefts) are different from Michigan lefts. They have their own set of pros and cons, though similar.
Ahhh. I see, it is different than michigan Lefts. I thought you were describing the same thing. And yes, a Jughandle doesn't work where the cross street has a ton of traffic.
The problem with SJTC is that there aren't enough roads. Not lanes on a road. Roads in general. A town center should be a bunch of very small roads so it feels like a town center. Sort of line the center of the original part of TC had. But in SJTC there is effectively one HUGE road and thats it. If we could get into the town center from say, 15 different entrances it would work so much better. Spread the traffic throughout the area, instead of one road. There should be exits off 295 and JTB that lead to service roads, which have many entrances to the mall (kind of like town center parkway is now). As well as St. Johns Bluff and Touchton road even. This was not properly engineered to handle traffic. Thats why I choose not to go there.
The benefit of the Michigan left is, you only need two light cycles, not four (or more). This is basically what I suggested months ago in this thread. Take out the left turn lights, add some crossovers and allow NO left turns anywhere on SJ Parkway. This would be 1000 times better than the cluster that it has become. The worst part of all of this is, the SJTC didn't suddenly discover it had a traffic problem; the whole project had years and years to plan for and this was the best they could come up with! That, to me, is a traffic and engineering department with zero vision.
Two words.
Light Rail! :o :o :o
In Monroe, LA the exit ramp from I-10 goes right into the mall parking lot. Maybe they should have done something similar. I wonder how much Town Center traffic is now just people driving from one parking space to another.
Quote from: Lostwave on April 24, 2018, 12:20:54 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 24, 2018, 10:31:56 AM
Just to be clear, Jughandles (or Jersey lefts) are different from Michigan lefts. They have their own set of pros and cons, though similar.
Ahhh. I see, it is different than michigan Lefts. I thought you were describing the same thing. And yes, a Jughandle doesn't work where the cross street has a ton of traffic.
The problem with SJTC is that there aren't enough roads. Not lanes on a road. Roads in general. A town center should be a bunch of very small roads so it feels like a town center. Sort of line the center of the original part of TC had. But in SJTC there is effectively one HUGE road and thats it. If we could get into the town center from say, 15 different entrances it would work so much better. Spread the traffic throughout the area, instead of one road. There should be exits off 295 and JTB that lead to service roads, which have many entrances to the mall (kind of like town center parkway is now). As well as St. Johns Bluff and Touchton road even. This was not properly engineered to handle traffic. Thats why I choose not to go there.
It is a town center in name only. it isn't even oriented towards its primary road - Town Center Drive.
The JTB interchanges with 295 (formerly St Johns Bluff) and Gate Parkway were there before SJTC and Town Center Parkway were built. IMO, the suburban design of everything over there is the real killer. I have no doubt that a good portion of that traffic is likely driving from one parking lot to another.
The suburban road network is another problem. Everything along the JTB corridor dumps out to a few streets. Instead of widening a few arterials and collectors, it would make sense to develop a more connected street grid to diversify ingress and egress options. The problem here is that means pushing more traffic into areas that may not want it.
I recently got an email from FDOT about them installing one of these Michigan lefts down on Philips Highway, I think south of University somewhere.
Taking a look at the highly success Disney Springs, what they did was cause a lot of pain for a time as they tore up existing building and surface lots and built two huge parking structures and recently started construction on a third. Many people were angry and said it was stupid to do that as it would kill business during construction. They persisted and got them built. Now, getting in and out of Disney Springs has turned into almost a breeze . The retail area is all walking and it is highly successful. Granted, it has the draw of Disney plus I-4 and all the conventions, but a well thought out design can definitely help ours.
Have been hearing all kinds of hilarious stories about the traffic jams and conflicts this has been causing:
https://www.news4jax.com/news/new-app-hopes-to-end-hunt-for-parking-at-st-johns-town-center
Just park in one of the spots behind Dick's Sporting Goods. Why on earth people would drive on that main road inside the TC is beyond me.
^ Hence why I suggested when I started this thread to just get rid of the middle road and put a people mover and some paths. It's a pointless nightmare to get around there anyway.
The high cost of free parking. I just park out in the middle where no one else is parking (reduces door dings) and walk the extra few hundred feet. I can always use the exercise.
Looks like ol Glenn was ahead of the curve on this one!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Having "the boots on the ground" sure helps!
https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,33912.0.html
Feel free to share for traction!!! :o :o
Two more words:
Autonomous Vehicles!
I've heard that AV technology is the place to be.