QuoteMayor Lenny Curry and his top administration official quietly hopped on Jaguars owner Shad Khan's private jet Monday morning and departed Jacksonville for a two-day trip to St. Louis and Baltimore to take care of official and political work, according to details confirmed Monday night by the mayor's office.
Curry and his chief administrative officer, Sam Mousa, were joined by at least one other passenger — Jaguars president Mark Lamping — as they meet with people in both cities to discuss downtown development ideas and for Curry to handle unspecified political business. The trip was not disclosed on Curry's public schedule, which is made available every day as a hard copy in a side office on the fourth floor of City Hall. As of Tuesday morning, the schedule only showed a series of private appointments for the two days; there was no mention of downtown development meetings.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-07-25/mayor-curry-top-staffer-take-trip-jaguars-owner-shad-khan-s-jet-discuss
Hmm, both cities are very similar to Jax in relation to their layout/bodies of water. They both have convention centers and hotels within a stones throw of their professional sports stadiums. St Louis has the massive park on the Mississippi River that is home to the arch. It's a total pipe dream, but it'd be cool to get a nationally recognizable monument like that.
Both of their stadiums are also closer to their downtown cores and directly served with rapid fixed mass transit. In addition, both are about as dense and pedestrian scale as they come for second tier urban areas in this country. It will be interesting to see what comes of this.
"It's a total pipe dream, but it'd be cool to get a nationally recognizable monument like that."
In Jax it would have to be a giant Hula Hoop, symbolizing our downtown development plans, which according to the plaque at the base of the monument "goes round and round and round, never actually getting anywhere." :P
Quote from: jaxjaguar on July 25, 2017, 12:05:21 PM
Hmm, both cities are very similar to Jax in relation to their layout/bodies of water. They both have convention centers and hotels within a stones throw of their professional sports stadiums. St Louis has the massive park on the Mississippi River that is home to the arch. It's a total pipe dream, but it'd be cool to get a nationally recognizable monument like that.
We could only dream of Baltimore level density.
Pick any road within 3 miles of the CBD in Baltimore and zoom in with Google Street view. We don't even have a full block with that level density and they have literally thousands.
Quote from: Jim on July 25, 2017, 01:39:54 PM
We could only dream have nightmares of Baltimore level density.
There's a reason no place south of Baltimore - Washington has that kind of mess. It's called plenty of available land, high temperatures and high humidity.
Get a clue.
Leave those balls and chains delivered by density, density, density behind.
My suspicion is this: Populous is salivating for the opportunity to showcase a project along the Jacksonville riverfront that creatively makes use of our river and imaginatively ties in a convention center with the Sports and Entertainment District but also includes a linear focus that takes us from that area down towards the Landing.
St. Louis and Baltimore are really secondary on this trip, the real deal is a pitch by Populous in Kansas City the Mayor Curry and Mousa on what we can get in Big Duval.
These are incredibly exciting times in Jacksonville. At a minimum, I think we get the kind of facility at Ballpark Village in St. Louis even if scaled back a bit:
http://ballparkdigest.com/2016/10/25/cardinals-unveil-ballpark-village-expansion/
Throw in a convention center and Four Seasons Hotel and the encouragement of linear connections for the 1.2 miles from the TV stations down to the Jacksonville Landing area, including a new Metropolitan Park and USS Adams area. Speed up that JTA Pedestrian / Skyway bridge linking Khan Land with Rummell Land and we could have something truly spectacular.
Man, hush the hell up about density and Jake Godbold.
Just build it !!!
Quote from: RattlerGator on July 25, 2017, 02:38:41 PM
Quote from: Jim on July 25, 2017, 01:39:54 PM
We could only dream have nightmares of Baltimore level density.
There's a reason no place south of Baltimore - Washington has that kind of mess. It's called plenty of available land, high temperatures and high humidity.
Get a clue.
Leave those balls and chains delivered by density, density, density behind.
Haha, you're wrong again. Miami, New Orleans, Savannah, Charleston, Richmond are all examples of such density. Heck, Miami is denser than DC and Baltimore and is still one of the most rapidly growing and densifying cities in the country. It's also five hours south of us, which eliminates the weather argument. With that said, it's obvious this is less about those cities and more about Khan's plans for investment in the downtown area. However, due to their sports facilities being a lot closer in their proximity to the heart of those cities, they do have complementing development serving as a good example of what Khan may be envisioning for his project.
Quote from: RattlerGator on July 25, 2017, 02:38:41 PM
Quote from: Jim on July 25, 2017, 01:39:54 PM
We could only dream have nightmares of Baltimore level density.
There's a reason no place south of Baltimore - Washington has that kind of mess. It's called plenty of available land, high temperatures and high humidity.
Miami would like a word with you about temps and humidity.
Also, northern cities are dense because they were built before the automobile age. Mobility is why southern cities are more spread out, not land, temps or humidity.
You're leaving out the best part, the picture:
(https://snag.gy/QN8YTP.jpg)
Interesting RG, two of the first things that popped into my head when I read about the cities they were visiting for downtown development ideas were Ballpark Village (St. Louis) and Populous (KC).
Mark Lamping oversaw the Ballpark Village project in St. Louis. He's very proud of that project, and you've got to think that him and Khan are thinking about something similar Jags-themed in their proposed "mixed use/entertainment" section of the Shipyards, just to the west of Khan's proposed hotel.
(https://snag.gy/Im5Sy8.jpg)
I wouldn't complain. It'd be a major draw in that area, a great addition to the game day experience, and even a great place to watch away games. Plus, you'd get some greenspace, like everyone wants.
Here are a few pics.
(http://www.stlballparkvillage.com/images/slideshow/2.jpg)
(http://www.mybelleelle.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/IMG_2985-1024x768.jpg)
It's worth pointing out that baseball and football stadiums are pretty different animals. MLB stadiums have 81 games a year that draw 20k+ people, plus potential playoffs and other events. Football only has 10 home games (9 for us) and playoffs/other events. MLB stadiums can anchor a district on their own more than football stadiums can.
Here is another... currently under construction...
The Packers put up 65 mil... other partners fork over another 80 or so...
http://www.packers.com/lambeau-field/titletown-district.html
QuoteTITLETOWN DISTRICT
The Green Bay Packers announced details on Aug. 20, 2015 for the master plan for the Titletown District, a destination area to be created on approximately 34 acres of land immediately west of Lambeau Field.
Building upon the success of Lambeau Field's major redevelopment in 2003 and subsequent expansion and renovation completed in 2015, the planned Titletown District will maximize its unique location to attract more visitors to the area, spur additional regional economic growth, offer new amenities to residents and complement the greater Green Bay area's draw as an excellent location to live, work and play.
(http://prod.static.packers.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/GB/photos/site/lambeau-field/2016/160929-titletown-renderings-4-780.jpg)
Central to Titletown will be a park with year-round, diverse programming that will feature fitness-related activities, cultural opportunities, versatile space for a variety of uses, and festive gameday action. The park's main attraction will be a sledding hill with tubing lanes and fantastic views of Lambeau Field, located in an area of the park that includes a dynamic ice skating trail and pond. The sledding hill's slope, beginning at a height of 45 feet, will serve as a roof over two buildings, one of which will house a warming lodge and snack bar on the ground level and event space on the second level, and the other will contain skate and tube rental operations. The skating trail will artfully wind underneath the structure and connect to an open skating area. Ice making, snowmaking and grooming equipment will ensure an extended tubing and skating season in the park. In the warmer months, the hill's sloped green space will provide a unique area for many activities.
In addition to the sledding hill and skating rink, the four other components of phase one work in Titletown's park include a plaza, an activity area, a playground and a sports field.
"The park in Titletown will be a wonderful asset for our community, as well as an appealing attraction for visitors and future residents alike," said Packers President/CEO Mark Murphy. "These updates for phase one reflect the evolved work of our design team, as well as the input from many community stakeholders. We're excited to see it come to life."
In total, the sledding hill's tubing lanes will stretch 300 feet from start to finish. Two buildings will provide the slope for the hill, with the main building housing a warming lodge and snack bar on the ground level and event space on the second level. A second building will contain skate and tube rental operations. The total skating surface area, including the trail and pond area, is 14,200 square feet, with the pond portion approximately the size of a hockey rink.
(http://prod.static.packers.clubs.nfl.com/assets/images/imported/GB/photos/site/lambeau-field/2016/160929-titletown-renderings-6-780.jpg)
Quote from: Tacachale on July 25, 2017, 03:37:21 PM
It's worth pointing out that baseball and football stadiums are pretty different animals. MLB stadiums have 81 games a year that draw 20k+ people, plus potential playoffs and other events. Football only has 10 home games (9 for us) and playoffs/other events. MLB stadiums can anchor a district on their own more than football stadiums can.
There's a baseball stadium in the area, too. The Jumbo Shrimp draw an average of 5,000 fans for 72 home games. It's not close to MLB scale, but it's not nothing. There's also an arena with a new hockey team, an ABA basketball team that inexplicably draws fans on a consistent basis, and concerts and other events throughout the year. And a new amphitheater. All that on top of the Jaguars.
That ought to be more than enough to serve as an anchor.
Now do any of those have a convention center component?
Quote from: JBTripper on July 25, 2017, 04:00:32 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on July 25, 2017, 03:37:21 PM
It's worth pointing out that baseball and football stadiums are pretty different animals. MLB stadiums have 81 games a year that draw 20k+ people, plus potential playoffs and other events. Football only has 10 home games (9 for us) and playoffs/other events. MLB stadiums can anchor a district on their own more than football stadiums can.
There's a baseball stadium in the area, too. The Jumbo Shrimp draw an average of 5,000 fans for 72 home games. It's not close to MLB scale, but it's not nothing. There's also an arena with a new hockey team, an ABA basketball team that inexplicably draws fans on a consistent basis, and concerts and other events throughout the year. And a new amphitheater. All that on top of the Jaguars.
That ought to be more than enough to serve as an anchor.
Those are all additional pieces, not anchors on their own. My point is that a (MLB) baseball field on its own is an anchor, a football stadium not necessarily so.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 25, 2017, 03:37:21 PM
It's worth pointing out that baseball and football stadiums are pretty different animals. MLB stadiums have 81 games a year that draw 20k+ people, plus potential playoffs and other events. Football only has 10 home games (9 for us) and playoffs/other events. MLB stadiums can anchor a district on their own more than football stadiums can.
It's also worth noting that Ballpark Village is one block away from City Garden and the core of downtown St. Louis. In other words, it's supported by a lot more than just baseball. It's also a Cordish development and pretty much the same thing you'll find from Cordish in Downtown Louisville and a host of other cities. If that's what's Lamping is envisioning, it's basically a modern spin on what the Landing should have probably been.
Quote from: Jim on July 25, 2017, 04:04:00 PM
Now do any of those have a convention center component?
On the other side of downtown St. Louis, their convention center is attached to the Edward Jones Dome. It also has a theatre, so RG is wrong on that one as well. It wasn't enough to keep the Rams in town but that complex is also right on Washington Street. Washington is a pretty cool pedestrian friendly street with LRT running under it, subway style.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on July 25, 2017, 03:44:50 PM
Here is another... currently under construction...
The Packers put up 65 mil... other partners fork over another 80 or so...
http://www.packers.com/lambeau-field/titletown-district.html
Titletown's plans are pretty cool, although they are adding the type of density and pedestrian scale connectivity RG claims Jax should not be concerned with. It's got a ton of frontage on an arterial highway, so it can pull visitors in outside of football season. Dropping the Hart Bridge down to grade would do wonders for the stadium district because right now through traffic 100% bypasses the area.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ejPv2Nn1VAk/VddLO98w5MI/AAAAAAAAU7w/Oc_GXRVxREs/s1600/TitletownDistrict_JournalSentinel.jpg)
Patriot's Place is another model. It's a mixed use complex with a movie theater, hotel, hospital and office buildings as anchors, facing US 1 on one side and Gillette Stadium on the other side. It's basically a smaller version of a SJTC. It's mix of non-football uses help sustain it outside of NFL season. So they have their examples to pull from. Some are walkable and some aren't. My guess is Jax's will fall somewhere inbetween.
(http://briggsengineering.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/403696c05af74012aec654668c068c8d.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2017, 05:24:49 PM
It's also worth noting that Ballpark Village is one block away from City Garden and the core of downtown St. Louis. In other words, it's supported by a lot more than just baseball. It's also a Cordish development and pretty much the same thing you'll find from Cordish in Downtown Louisville and a host of other cities. If that's what's Lamping is envisioning, it's basically a modern spin on what the Landing should have probably been.
Doing a little Googling, I think there might be some smoke to the Cordish fire. So Khan and Curry took a sightseeing field trip to St. Louis, Baltimore, and Kansas City this week, presumably to talk about Shipyards development.
Mark Lamping, who was also along for the trip, led the Ballpark Village project in St. Louis, which was developed by Cordish. And if you look at Cordish's portfolio page (http://cordish.com/portfolio), the two most similar developments to Ballpark Village are Power Plant Live (in Baltimore) and Power & Light District (in Kansas City).
Coincidence? Maybe.
What's interesting is that a development like this would make the Landing in its current state somewhat superfluous. What's even more interesting is that I could see the city, Curry in particularly, championing it partially out of spite for Sleiman.
Ballpark Village is pictured above, here are some pics of the other two developments.
Power Plant Live (Baltimore Inner Harbor):
(http://baltimoreparking.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/power-plant-live-rt.jpg)
(http://www.powerplantlive.com/images/photo_gallery/031_Hot-Country-Nights_Currington_08-12-16.JPG)
Power & Light District (Kansas City):
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Pld_pano_cropped.jpg/1024px-Pld_pano_cropped.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/PLD_KCLive.jpg/1024px-PLD_KCLive.jpg)
(https://casestudies.uli.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/98/2016/06/panodramatic.jpg)
(http://www.kccondosource.com/xSites/Agents/welcomehomegirl/Content/UploadedFiles/n838219274_1537286_7284764.jpg)
QuoteDoing a little Googling, I think there might be some smoke to the Cordish fire. So Khan and Curry took a sightseeing field trip to St. Louis, Baltimore, and Kansas City this week, presumably to talk about Shipyards development.
Mark Lamping, who was also along for the trip, led the Ballpark Village project in St. Louis, which was developed by Cordish. And if you look at Cordish's portfolio page (http://cordish.com/portfolio), the two most similar developments to Ballpark Village are Power Plant Live (in Baltimore) and Power & Light District (in Kansas City).
Coincidence? Maybe.
I'm familiar with most of the Cordish Live! developments. All three of these have the benefit from not being a mile from downtown. Baltimore and Kansas City moreso than St. Louis, but only because Ballpark Live sits in the middle of a big surface parking lot. XFINITY Live! in Philly is probably more applicable.
QuoteWhat's interesting is that a development like this would make the Landing in its current state somewhat superfluous. What's even more interesting is that I could see the city, Curry in particularly, championing it partially out of spite for Sleiman.
Sleiman can still have great impact on what the Landing can be. Both Baltimore and St. Louis have Cordish Live! developments are not too far away from former Rouse marketplaces. In Baltimore, they pretty much co-exist. However, Harborplace is in the process of transitioning to more of a food hall, while Power Plant Live! is anchored with destination restaurants. In St. Louis, Union Station (their old Rouse marketplace) looked just as bad as the Landing. The old grand lobby of the train station had been renovated into a pretty cool Marriott but the old train shed mall had seen better days.
Ultimately, running the Landing like a shopping center makes sense on multiple levels, as opposed to Sleiman waiting for the day Curry starts working with him. The early bird catches the worm. He's got a structurally building that's located in the heart of the Northbank. There's a potential market for uses in that location that can cater to things EverBank Field can't, due to the built density around it. So they may be able to complement each other, like the Baltimore example.
Then there's also this thing called economic cycles. The economy has been good for a while now. History has proven it won't keep buzzing for eternity. At this point, the Shipyards is still a dream that most likely won't be fully built before the next down cycle rolls in. So the ball is still bouncing in Sleiman's court, for a chance at turning the Landing around.
Cordish did Norfolk's Waterside district too. Surprised that hasn't been mentioned
I mentioned it a few weeks back in one of my monthly Times Union editorials:
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/columnists/2017-06-27/guest-column-common-sense-approach-reviving-jacksonville-landing
That's another example of a retail complex, like the Landing, finding a complementing use to a larger/newer retail structure a few blocks away. There's nothing from stopping Sleiman from doing something like Cordish's revamp of Waterside now, as opposed to sitting and waiting for another project to materialize and capture the current trends of whatever the market can support.
If the Jags put a Cordish development next to the 4 Points/amphitheatre, I'd love to see the landing turned into something like the Washington Harbour. https://www.thewashingtonharbour.com/
What is 4 Points? Are you referring to the hotel brand?
Well this will be interesting, I only hope for the best and success to what ever is decided.