I had been wondering what was going on in the park along Laura Street
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-06-12/crews-remove-concrete-bricks-part-jacksonville-s-hemming-park (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-06-12/crews-remove-concrete-bricks-part-jacksonville-s-hemming-park)
QuoteWork crews have started removing concrete ledges and brick pavers from part of downtown Jacksonville's Hemming Park, a step designed to beautify an area that was paved over decades ago.
"It helps soften up those hard edges," said Friends of Hemming Park CEO Bill Prescott, whose organization manages the city-owned property in front of City Hall.
The organization is spending about $60,000 for work on the park's eastern edge, near Laura Street, that should be complete before the end of the month.
Getting the work done fast will be important.
About 100 volunteers from Citibank are scheduled to help landscape the park June 24, and organizers want to put them to work in the newly cleared area.
The 151-year-old park was largely covered with bricks in 1977 as part of a redevelopment project that coincided with the park falling into disuse. Restoring green space there became a goal of park advocates when the Friends organization was contracted to run the square-block site in 2014.________________________________________
Bricks are expected to be removed east of the park's fountain, and ledges now used sometimes as benches in the same area will be cleared away. New curbs will be installed around the area being landscaped. Concrete slabs to be used in a sculpture garden will added too, but the sculptures will come later.
"It will be very impactful from a visual standpoint," Prescott said. He said the greatest share of foot traffic through the park connects to Laura Street, and restoring an unpaved, green look in that area will send a message to people nearby.
Money for the makeover is part of a $175,000 capital improvements budget city officials approved for Hemming Park in April, when the Friends organization was given a six-month contract to continue running the park with the possibility of extending that arrangement another two years.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,34113.msg470105.html#msg470105
I lived in Jax in the early to mid 60's when we lived in LaVilla (817 west duval street), and I remember when Hemming had palm trees, grass, more plants and foliage in certain places, and a downstairs bathroom on the east end across from where the library is now. We moved from Jax in late 1967, and when I joined the Navy in 1974, my first duty station was out at Naval Air Station Cecil Field in an air squadron. From 74 to 82 I was stationed in Jax, and was there in 1976/77 when they started construction on the plaza. When they finished the old bathroom underground on the east end was dug up and sealed up, bricks and concrete were put up for benches, oak trees planted in certain places (which are now huge and grown after 40 years), the band stand plucked up and removed, etc. I was a boy of about 20 or 21 back then (telling my age) and I remember being disappointed with the bricks and concrete and the changing of the name from a park to plaza. To me it was and always has been Hemming Park, and I am glad that they are returning to grass, more plants and foliage (I guess), and the park theme and appearance. I hope they put park benches back in, and a definitive area for bands and groups to perform (like the old grand stand) would be a welcome addition as most parks have one or an area for bands and groups (and other events) to be staged. Putting a rest room back in would also be good; when has anyone heard of a park without a rest room? Good move Jax in my opinion.
Haven't been to Jax in a while, so I'm solely relying on pictures I've seen posted online. It looks like the half closest to the library is going to be completely close off from public access aside from the perimeter... If this is the case I guess that's one solution to get the vagrants out. If there's no-where for them to stand or sit they'll move along, right? ::) On a more serious note, does it concern anyone else that the park will be more "closed off" after this project is over?
I definitely agree that it needs a restroom. I'd much rather have the people that hang out there have a bathroom to use than for them to use the Library one when they need to. I wish something could be done to help the people out there, maybe if there was a center with resources that they could access during the day...
When I think, green space, I think grass and plants. Looks like just mulch or pine needles with no ability to walk over it so in effect, did this portion of Heming become unusable?
It appears the improvement's primary goal was to eliminate people from hanging out in that area. It's all fenced off now, so it is unusable.
you mean everyone will have to sit around the corner across main st. before the library opens now?!? why they'll have to walk at least 100yds further
the space was unusable before anyway to the 99.9999% of Jacksonville who doesn't sit in parks all day. at least youll be able to walk down laura now and not be harassed. the space could be reactivated nearly immediately when theres a better use of the space
Whats interesting is this has now caused a cadre of homeless folks to hang out in the shade on duval side the snyder memorial church.
Classic case of dealing with the symptom and not the issue.
like or not at this stage in hemmings life "those people" are a problem not just a symptom.
I hear "nice efforts and all, but also bums" constantly from your typical Jax DT worker when hemming comes up.
ive noticed some have moved by the church, too, but the number of loiterers has definitely gone down since the change
Quote from: jlmann on July 07, 2017, 04:11:38 PM
like or not at this stage in hemmings life "those people" are a problem not just a symptom.
I hear "nice efforts and all, but also bums" constantly from your typical Jax DT worker when hemming comes up.
ive noticed some have moved by the church, too, but the number of loiterers has definitely gone down since the change
You never solve a problem by focusing on the symptoms. Tylenol alleviates the fever but you still have the Flu.
Quote from: jlmann on July 07, 2017, 04:11:38 PM
like or not at this stage in hemmings life "those people" are a problem not just a symptom.
I hear "nice efforts and all, but also bums" constantly from your typical Jax DT worker when hemming comes up.
ive noticed some have moved by the church, too, but the number of loiterers has definitely gone down since the change
I think the issue wouldn't be so much of an issue if Downtown was healthy and had lots of people living and working there. It's a numbers game - when you've barely got any people there, the number of homeless people really stands out. That's not to say there isn't a problem - but I think at least part of the issue is down to perception.
Can anyone provide recent or current pics?
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on July 07, 2017, 04:20:29 PM
Can anyone provide recent or current pics?
Of Hemming Park/Plaza or the homeless people?
;D
QuoteYou never solve a problem by focusing on the symptoms. Tylenol alleviates the fever but you still have the Flu.
at this point these folks are at least the park's flu.
went out for lunch today, like everyday. as usual the sidewalks are full of folks on their lunch breaks. but the foot traffic through and around hemming shows clearly shows they are avoiding hemming.
I would suggest that hemming has lagged the surrounding blocks esp towards the river. adam is right as more people live dt the issue will improve and that's happening, but in the mean time this is an improvement and does no harm to anything dt
The fact that Hemming is mostly visited by homeless people is due in part to the fact there is nothing around it to draw anyone to it. There is little retail/restaurant around it. By surrounding it with mostly offices, it is doomed to be empty most of the time except for those with nothing to do.
Quote from: Adam White on July 07, 2017, 04:30:12 PM
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on July 07, 2017, 04:20:29 PM
Can anyone provide recent or current pics?
Of Hemming Park/Plaza or the homeless people?
;D
Either/or
I think this is a hasty choice. Landscaping would've been better than just laying down mulch. But I guess the cheapest route wins out.
Before:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Neighborhoods/Hemming-Plaza/i-3S6Zkxj/0/5f43a5c2/L/P1540505-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Neighborhoods/Hemming-Plaza/i-wNRjMZw/0/cbb02213/L/P1540518-L.jpg)
After:
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU062417/i-5XVr9sC/0/2172b7c7/L/20170625_140334-L.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2017, 10:32:29 PM
Before:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Neighborhoods/Hemming-Plaza/i-3S6Zkxj/0/5f43a5c2/L/P1540505-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Neighborhoods/Hemming-Plaza/i-wNRjMZw/0/cbb02213/L/P1540518-L.jpg)
After:
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU062417/i-5XVr9sC/0/2172b7c7/L/20170625_140334-L.jpg)
Is that mulch?
Is that all their going to do? I hope not
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on July 09, 2017, 03:11:03 AM
Is that all their going to do? I hope not
I was thinking the same thing. Then I thought maybe the yellow tape means they're not finished. In any event, that's a lot of mulch. I can appreciate mulch around plants or whatever - but I don't like the idea of the entire park just being mulch.
I'm also "indoorsy" and avoid gardening like the plague. So it's possible that I'm just missing the obvious or something.
QuoteThe city acquired Hemming Park in 1866 and named it after Jacksonville Confederate veteran Charles C. Hemming, who gifted the Confederate statue standing in the middle of the park. The statue is one of the few pieces of Jacksonville that survived the Great Fire of 1901.
#TakeEmDownJax
Might the City remove the soldier monument and possibly change the name of the park as well?
My my, how the times they are a changing....
Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2017, 10:32:29 PM
Before:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Neighborhoods/Hemming-Plaza/i-3S6Zkxj/0/5f43a5c2/L/P1540505-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Neighborhoods/Hemming-Plaza/i-wNRjMZw/0/cbb02213/L/P1540518-L.jpg)
After:
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU062417/i-5XVr9sC/0/2172b7c7/L/20170625_140334-L.jpg)
That looks awful. Why not grass (which is what I thought they said they were doing)?
The after image was taken two weeks ago. The yellow tape is gone now since the fence is complete. At some point, they'll add some sculptures but this fenced in area of the park will no longer be accessible to the public.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 09, 2017, 07:45:33 AM
The after image was taken two weeks ago. The yellow tape is gone now since the fence is complete. At some point, they'll add some sculptures but this fenced in area of the park will no longer be accessible to the public.
What a great use of public space.
Quote from: mtraininjax on July 09, 2017, 05:50:53 AM
QuoteThe city acquired Hemming Park in 1866 and named it after Jacksonville Confederate veteran Charles C. Hemming, who gifted the Confederate statue standing in the middle of the park. The statue is one of the few pieces of Jacksonville that survived the Great Fire of 1901.
#TakeEmDownJax
Might the City remove the soldier monument and possibly change the name of the park as well?
My my, how the times they are a changing....
I hope not. I'm no Son of the Confederacy or anything but I think it is silly to remove monuments, names, etc. from the public that have to do with the Confederacy. Confederates were Americans too and should have monuments.
Those who forget history...
QuoteThose who forget history...
I respect that some confederate soldiers were just doing there duty and all. But call the confederacy what it is: a renegade insurgency.
so we're bound to secede again if we take down monuments? that's a stretch at best
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on July 09, 2017, 03:20:35 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on July 09, 2017, 05:50:53 AM
QuoteThe city acquired Hemming Park in 1866 and named it after Jacksonville Confederate veteran Charles C. Hemming, who gifted the Confederate statue standing in the middle of the park. The statue is one of the few pieces of Jacksonville that survived the Great Fire of 1901.
#TakeEmDownJax
Might the City remove the soldier monument and possibly change the name of the park as well?
My my, how the times they are a changing....
I hope not. I'm no Son of the Confederacy or anything but I think it is silly to remove monuments, names, etc. from the public that have to do with the Confederacy. Confederates were Americans too and should have monuments.
Those who forget history...
Uh....I'm pretty sure they were fighting for 4 years specifically to no longer be part of the USA. We are literally celebrating people who fought against us to become something else. And I can assure that the removal of a Confederate statue will have no effect on the populace remembering or forgetting that time in history when our southern states wanted to be their own country so they could continue slavery (among other reasons).
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_South (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_South)
was just down there as I am 3-4 times/week.
the laura street half of the park is soooo much more pleasant and, for better or worse, your average office worker might actually feel comfortable down there.
you can hear the fountain instead of drug-addled arguing, one can appreciate the library façade, no sudden head jerk when you end up downwind of a vagrant.
it's a huge improvement and that space can be reactivated in a matter of days when the need arises
no sign of anyone in the church shadows as folks seem to be learning they need to find one of the other countless public spaces in the city to do nothing at
confederates are americans too lol. oh alderman paaarrrrkkk..............
Quote from: Jim on July 10, 2017, 10:22:41 AM
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on July 09, 2017, 03:20:35 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on July 09, 2017, 05:50:53 AM
QuoteThe city acquired Hemming Park in 1866 and named it after Jacksonville Confederate veteran Charles C. Hemming, who gifted the Confederate statue standing in the middle of the park. The statue is one of the few pieces of Jacksonville that survived the Great Fire of 1901.
#TakeEmDownJax
Might the City remove the soldier monument and possibly change the name of the park as well?
My my, how the times they are a changing....
I hope not. I'm no Son of the Confederacy or anything but I think it is silly to remove monuments, names, etc. from the public that have to do with the Confederacy. Confederates were Americans too and should have monuments.
Those who forget history...
Uh....I'm pretty sure they were fighting for 4 years specifically to no longer be part of the USA. We are literally celebrating people who fought against us to become something else. And I can assure that the removal of a Confederate statue will have no effect on the populace remembering or forgetting that time in history when our southern states wanted to be their own country so they could continue slavery (among other reasons).
Yes the CSA was fighting to secede but the Union was fighting to reintegrate those lands and people back into the Union. Were civilians and soilders of the CSA not American citizens upon conclusion of the War? Were they exiled or deported? Were they not born American citizens? Should their deaths not be remembered? Should these people be ignored because they fought on the wrong side of conflict among Americans?
The Civil War made the United States and the good and bad of it should not be erased from history. I don't believe we should whitewash the historical record to cater to the sensitivities of the current generation.
As far as people forgetting. I wouldn't be so sure. We have young people all over the country using symbols and rhetoric of the Nazis. Hitler is now a meme used by young and old of the far right in this country. Have they forgotten that our fathers and grandfathers fought a war against this ideology? Maybe not, but a great many of them have forgotten why we fought WWII.
Examples:
Flag of "Kekistan"
(https://assets.change.org/photos/7/kp/nb/CFkPNBTgNNABqac-800x450-noPad.jpg?1492256470)
(https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2c78e41a1738217b07f75f2b33905714)
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/nintchdbpict0002705231641.jpg)
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on July 10, 2017, 11:21:09 AM
Quote from: Jim on July 10, 2017, 10:22:41 AM
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on July 09, 2017, 03:20:35 PM
I hope not. I'm no Son of the Confederacy or anything but I think it is silly to remove monuments, names, etc. from the public that have to do with the Confederacy. Confederates were Americans too and should have monuments.
Those who forget history...
Uh....I'm pretty sure they were fighting for 4 years specifically to no longer be part of the USA. We are literally celebrating people who fought against us to become something else. And I can assure that the removal of a Confederate statue will have no effect on the populace remembering or forgetting that time in history when our southern states wanted to be their own country so they could continue slavery (among other reasons).
Yes the CSA was fighting to secede but the Union was fighting to reintegrate those lands and people back into the Union. Were civilians and soilders of the CSA not American citizens upon conclusion of the War? Were they exiled or deported? Were they not born American citizens? Should their deaths not be remembered? Should these people be ignored because they fought on the wrong side of conflict among Americans?
The Civil War made the United States and the good and bad of it should not be erased from history. I don't believe we should whitewash the historical record to cater to the sensitivities of the current generation.
As far as people forgetting. I wouldn't be so sure. We have young people all over the country using symbols and rhetoric of the Nazis. Hitler is now a meme used by young and old of the far right in this country. Have they forgotten that our fathers and grandfathers fought a war against this ideology? Maybe not, but a great many of them have forgotten why we fought WWII.
Remember them, yes. Celebrate them, no. That is what museums, historical preservation, books, history class, etc....are for. Raising monuments to celebrate those that went to war so they could continue to own people is an appalling and shameful way to remember those that were owned.
Why romanticize an evil? I'd far rather raise a statue to celebrate and remember the cotton picker that thanklessly helped build this country than the man who applied whip to back.
And since you invoked Godwin's Law, you might want to see how the Germans have handled their own checkered history. You certainly do not see statues of Hitler, Himmler, Geobbels or Goring in their town plazas and parks but they don't shy away from the atrocities either with museums and preservations.
Quote from: jlmann on July 10, 2017, 09:37:33 AM
QuoteThose who forget history...
I respect that some confederate soldiers were just doing there duty and all. But call the confederacy what it is: a renegade insurgency.
so we're bound to secede again if we take down monuments? that's a stretch at best
I wasn't implying secession as a result of taking down monuments but simply that erasing and re-writing history is a mistake. Are going to pretend that slavery never happened? Should we start calling slaves 'workers'?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/05/immigrant-workers-or-slaves-textbook-maker-backtracks-after-mothers-online-complaint/?utm_term=.0c6a797b5544 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/05/immigrant-workers-or-slaves-textbook-maker-backtracks-after-mothers-online-complaint/?utm_term=.0c6a797b5544)
There is an attempt on both sides of the political spectrum to alter history. From the right, to soften the atrocities of the past; i.e. "Hitler wasn't so bad" or "Blacks were better off under slavery" and from the left to pad the world with safe spaces so that nothing contradictory to their world view is put within their line of sight, "this building can't be named after Woodrow Wilson" ( https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/23/princeton-woodrow-wilson-racism-students-remove-name (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/23/princeton-woodrow-wilson-racism-students-remove-name) ) or "this statues offends me". Are we going to tear down Arlington House and move Arlington National Cemetery because Robert E. Lee once lived there?
My point being is that these monuments are just that, monuments to the past. A past that has happened and must not be ignored.
The absence or removal of these monuments signify an indifference to history similar to the indifference to science we see happening. A statue in a park in Jacksonville or in the center of a major roundabout in New Orleans might cause a child to look up and say "who's that and why is there a statue of him?" therefore sparking a interest in history. A terrible thing to lose.
Quote from: Jim on July 10, 2017, 11:37:01 AM
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on July 10, 2017, 11:21:09 AM
Quote from: Jim on July 10, 2017, 10:22:41 AM
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on July 09, 2017, 03:20:35 PM
I hope not. I'm no Son of the Confederacy or anything but I think it is silly to remove monuments, names, etc. from the public that have to do with the Confederacy. Confederates were Americans too and should have monuments.
Those who forget history...
Uh....I'm pretty sure they were fighting for 4 years specifically to no longer be part of the USA. We are literally celebrating people who fought against us to become something else. And I can assure that the removal of a Confederate statue will have no effect on the populace remembering or forgetting that time in history when our southern states wanted to be their own country so they could continue slavery (among other reasons).
Yes the CSA was fighting to secede but the Union was fighting to reintegrate those lands and people back into the Union. Were civilians and soilders of the CSA not American citizens upon conclusion of the War? Were they exiled or deported? Were they not born American citizens? Should their deaths not be remembered? Should these people be ignored because they fought on the wrong side of conflict among Americans?
The Civil War made the United States and the good and bad of it should not be erased from history. I don't believe we should whitewash the historical record to cater to the sensitivities of the current generation.
As far as people forgetting. I wouldn't be so sure. We have young people all over the country using symbols and rhetoric of the Nazis. Hitler is now a meme used by young and old of the far right in this country. Have they forgotten that our fathers and grandfathers fought a war against this ideology? Maybe not, but a great many of them have forgotten why we fought WWII.
Remember them, yes. Celebrate them, no. That is what museums, historical preservation, books, history class, etc....are for. Raising monuments to celebrate those that went to war so they could continue to own people is an appalling and shameful way to remember those that were owned.
Why romanticize an evil? I'd far rather raise a statue to celebrate and remember the cotton picker that thanklessly helped build this country than the man who applied whip to back.
And since you invoked Godwin's Law, you might want to see how the Germans have handled their own checkered history. You certainly do not see statues of Hitler, Himmler, Geobbels or Goring in their town plazas and parks but they don't shy away from the atrocities either with museums and preservations.
I don't see a monument as a celebration. These monuments can be seen as a celebration to those who believe in the cause of the Confederacy. I think monuments such as these should be looked upon by the masses as a solemn reminder of the grievances of the so we do not forget. So we can be reminded of the lengths that twisted men with twisted ideologies will go to.
But I can see why you would think these statues are celebrations. Literally placing figures like Lee on a pedestal. But here we are again at the start. Should these be erased from the historical landscape? Like it or not these cities were part of the CSA and that is an important part of their history.
as far as Germany, I think what they've done is in proportion to the atrocities that were committed in their name. That being said, would you favor laws like they have in Germany where use of symbols relating to the CSA were banned by law? That free speech be limited in cases of people spouting Confederate ideas? Where the images that I used in that post above be illegal?
QuoteShould these people be ignored because they fought on the wrong side of conflict among Americans?
wrong question.
Should these people be memorialized and implicitly celebrated through monuments because they fought on the wrong side of conflict among Americans?
a better questions and one to which the obvious answer is no.
a monument is an implicit endorsement or celebration, despite your opinion
now slap a plaque on that says "Pray to our God that NEVER AGAIN shall we endorse slavery or institutions akin to it. That NEVER AGAIN shall we raise up arms against our countrymen. May we not repeat the mistakes of Mr Hemming and his associates."
then you might have a case that it is ok to stand as a lesson. to my knowledge no such caveat exists on that monument or any others.
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on July 10, 2017, 11:58:23 AM
I don't see a monument as a celebration. These monuments can be seen as a celebration to those who believe in the cause of the Confederacy. I think monuments such as these should be looked upon by the masses as a solemn reminder of the grievances of the so we do not forget. So we can be reminded of the lengths that twisted men with twisted ideologies will go to.
But I can see why you would think these statues are celebrations. Literally placing figures like Lee on a pedestal. But here we are again at the start. Should these be erased from the historical landscape? Like it or not these cities were part of the CSA and that is an important part of their history.
Ask yourself why those statues were raised and who raised them. They most certainly were not put up with the intention that children will see them as reminders of an atrocity to never be committed again. They were raised to give tribute to those they perceived as heroes. To help establish an ideology as continuing regardless of national status.
also ask yourself re: neo Nazis if keeping memorials of Hitler up wouldve be a good idea.
by your twisted logic re:hemming they should have and should still stand
Quote from: jlmann on July 10, 2017, 12:06:19 PM
a monument is an implicit endorsement or celebration, despite your opinion
now slap a plaque on that says "Pray to our God that NEVER AGAIN shall we endorse slavery or institutions akin to it. That NEVER AGAIN shall we raise up arms against our countrymen. May we not repeat the mistakes of Mr Hemming and his associates."
then you might have a case that it is ok to stand as a lesson. to my knowledge no such caveat exists on that monument or any others.
That implication is an objective fact? Sounds like an opinion.
Monument - a statue, building, or other structure erected to commemorate a famous or notable person or event.
a statue or other structure placed by or over a grave in memory of the dead.
a building, structure, or site that is of historical importance or interest.
I see nothing about endorsement or celebration.
Quote from: Jim on July 10, 2017, 12:22:15 PM
Ask yourself why those statues were raised and who raised them. They most certainly were not put up with the intention that children will see them as reminders of an atrocity to never be committed again. They were raised to give tribute to those they perceived as heroes. To help establish an ideology as continuing regardless of national status.
The date of when the monument was erected must be taken into context as well. The Lee monument in the New Orleans for example was created in the 1880's. So one could say that most likely the people that created that monument were celebrating Lee and the CSA. Although, time, people and culture changes. The context of the 1880's no longer exists. The CSA is no longer broadly seen as something to be celebrated, so the meaning of the monuments change.
QuoteThe social meanings of monuments are rarely fixed and certain and are frequently 'contested' by different social groups. As an example: whilst the former East German socialist state may have seen the Berlin Wall as a means of 'protection' from the ideological impurity of the west, dissidents and others would often argue that it was symbolic of the inherent repression and paranoia of that state. This contention of meaning is a central theme of modern 'post processual' archaeological discourse.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument#Protection_and_preservation
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument#Protection_and_preservation)
I guess if they can forgive us, why can't we forgive ourselves?
(https://www.guidelondon.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Statute-of-American-President-In-London_George-Washington.jpg)
George Washington
American tourists are often surprised that there is a statue of their first president in the heart of London at Trafalgar Square. The statue shows Washington holding a bundle of 13 fasces which represent the original 13 states of the newly created United States of America. There is a popular legend that Washington, whose family came from the North East of England, had said he would never set foot on British soil again so some American soil was put under the statue comply with his wishes. It is a replica of an original by Jean Antoine Houdon and was given to Britain by the Commonwealth of Virginia in 1924.
https://www.guidelondon.org.uk/blog/around-london/statues-6-american-presidents-london/
*Edit: Bolded text highlights even the snarkiness that was delivered with said statue.
nope. not an opinion. just fact. your suggestion that we must ignore the rationale for why something is built in the first place is well, your not supposed to call names here, but that sure isn't an intelligent position
I'm white, but my god. How thick do you have to be to not understand that a black person might be rightly offended by monuments to the soldiers who waged war to keep their ancestors as property, to be treated as such? that they might be offended by the way the remnants of the confederacy abused their great/grandparents for decades? That those slave owners grandchildren fought bitterly against anything protecting their right to vote, to be treated as an equal human? The same people whose police force brutalized them with water cannons and batons and still does to this day?
The answer to all those questions is that you have to be remarkably thick to not see that.
We don't have to be tolerant of intolerance.
if one is under 50, i'd be willing to bet within your lifetimes you'll be very hard pressed to find such a monument.
And all those here advocating for the monuments will be remembered alongside those who wanted to keep colored out of their restaurants.
as you should be
Quote from: jlmann on July 10, 2017, 10:59:04 AM
was just down there as I am 3-4 times/week.
the laura street half of the park is soooo much more pleasant and, for better or worse, your average office worker might actually feel comfortable down there.
you can hear the fountain instead of drug-addled arguing, one can appreciate the library façade, no sudden head jerk when you end up downwind of a vagrant.
it's a huge improvement and that space can be reactivated in a matter of days when the need arises
no sign of anyone in the church shadows as folks seem to be learning they need to find one of the other countless public spaces in the city to do nothing at
I walk through Hemming at least twice a day during the week, since it's between my office and where I park my truck. The poor people never bothered me (maybe because of my background) but there's no one in that particular area now, so I guess the goal has been achieved. I'm not sure Hemming will ever be vibrant because we still don't understand the importance of the "outer square" on a public space like that, but the revamped area already filling up of random blades of grass and weeds. Hopefully COJ/Friends of Hemming will do a better job of maintaining it. Btw, the church groups still come out. There was a line getting free meals on that exact same sidewalk the other weekend.
Quote from: jlmann on July 10, 2017, 12:54:53 PM
nope. not an opinion. just fact. your suggestion that we must ignore the rationale for why something is built in the first place is well, your not supposed to call names here, but that sure isn't an intelligent position
Actually in my above post in response to you I did say that the context of when the monument was erected must be taken into account.
QuoteI'm white, but my god. How thick do you have to be to not understand that a black person might be rightly offended by monuments to the soldiers who waged war to keep their ancestors as property, to be treated as such? that they might be offended by the way the remnants of the confederacy abused their great/grandparents for decades? That those slave owners grandchildren fought bitterly against anything protecting their right to vote, to be treated as an equal human? The same people whose police force brutalized them with water cannons and batons and still does to this day?
I fully understand that an African-American would be sensitive to anything to do with the CSA or Slavery. I would assume though that slavery is something that dealt with by each individual as a possibility in their ancestry. I have sympathy for those who are affected by these monuments and symbols but it is not our job in a free society to protect those whom might be offended. This is history, this is fact, it isn't going away because some one is offended or because it is grim to face. Should be demolish the slave cabin's at Kingsley Plantation? Should we knock down the White House because it was built by slaves and occupied by slave holders?
I can't even address the blanket statements that all white people opposed to Civil Rights in the first half of the 20th century are descendants of slaveholders.
QuoteThe answer to all those questions is that you have to be remarkably thick to not see that.
We don't have to be tolerant of intolerance.
In the sense of Free Speech, Freedom of Expression and under the Rule of Law, actually we do.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
Quoteif one is under 50, i'd be willing to bet within your lifetimes you'll be very hard pressed to find such a monument.
And all those here advocating for the monuments will be remembered alongside those who wanted to keep colored out of their restaurants.
as you should be
I should be remembered alongside bigots and slaveholders for my belief that history should remain intact and in public view despite the ugliness of the truth? Fine.
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on July 10, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
This is history, this is fact, it isn't going away because some one is offended or because it is grim to face.
If it is history and fact and isn't going away, then why do we need celebratory monuments to it?
Put up a sign that reads something similar to the below and call it a day.
"Confederate Statue - 1898.
The display of this statue is not an endorsement of the confederacy, nor is any social commentary intended by its presence in the park.
The statue is simply a long-standing historical artifact from Jacksonville's past."
I don't think everything has to be so binary - either present it as a memorial or rip it out of the ground altogether. If you qualify it's presence as being strictly historical and clearly note the context - historic preservation rather than celebration of bigotry - I think most reasonable people would simply view it as a civil war-era artifact, not a subversive racist altar. It may even encourage some important conversation.
Even better yet, erect that long-overdue James Weldon Johnson statue elsewhere in the park while you're at it.
If we really want to solve racial problems in Jacksonville, we should start with law enforcement, the criminal justice system, public education, and a deficient public transportation system that separates much of the city's working poor from our major job centers. Once those things are fixed, we can start worrying about statues.
So...can we talk about that mulch?
Quote from: Jim on July 10, 2017, 03:09:15 PM
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on July 10, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
This is history, this is fact, it isn't going away because some one is offended or because it is grim to face.
If it is history and fact and isn't going away, then why do we need celebratory monuments to it?
Well, I tried to establish earlier that a monument in and of itself is not inherently celebratory or an endorsement of the people or principals presented and the context and understanding of that monument changes with the times. In the 1890's the statue in Hemming
Plaza Park would be seen as a monument to the Confederacy, today it is seen as a remnant of that, a reminder of how far we've come.
But, to answer your question, because these monuments are part of the historical and physical landscape and an erasure of that is an erasure of history.
Confederate Park for example is so-named not because of the Confederacy having a stronghold in Jacksonville, I think the Union held it for most of the war, but because of the reunion of the United Confederate Veterans that was held there in 1914. Those veterans who are legally considered veterans of the United States, should have their sacrifices honored, I think. So does the Federal Government who recognizes Union and CSA soldiers as having equal status.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/515931550_cdgt3-M.jpg)
It contains a monument to the Women of the confederacy. Should that be torn down as symbol of hatred?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/515925669_Jg8vZ-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/515926120_8gJDe-M.jpg)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-apr-urban-parks-confederate-park (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-apr-urban-parks-confederate-park)
Quote from: KenFSU on July 10, 2017, 03:26:24 PM
Put up a sign that reads something similar to the below and call it a day.
"Confederate Statue - 1898.
The display of this statue is not an endorsement of the confederacy, nor is any social commentary intended by its presence in the park.
The statue is simply a long-standing historical artifact from Jacksonville's past."
I don't think everything has to be so binary - either present it as a memorial or rip it out of the ground altogether. If you qualify it's presence as being strictly historical and clearly note the context - historic preservation rather than celebration of bigotry - I think most reasonable people would simply view it as a civil war-era artifact, not a subversive racist altar. It may even encourage some important conversation.
Even better yet, erect that long-overdue James Weldon Johnson statue elsewhere in the park while you're at it.
If we really want to solve racial problems in Jacksonville, we should start with law enforcement, the criminal justice system, public education, and a deficient public transportation system that separates much of the city's working poor from our major job centers. Once those things are fixed, we can start worrying about statues.
Agreed. How about a statue to Anna Kingsley who was arguably the first woman of African descent to own land in what is now Jacksonville.
Maybe you guys should start a separate thread about this?? And let this thread get back to the Beautification of Hemming Park
QuoteI should be remembered alongside bigots and slaveholders for my belief that history should remain intact and in public view the confederacy deserves to continue to be memorialized?
ftfy. yes.
QuoteShould be demolish the slave cabin's at Kingsley Plantation? Should we knock down the White House because it was built by slaves and occupied by slave holders?
really revealing your intellectual chops here. The slave cabin at Kingsley was constructed when slavery was common practice. It was not erected by the plantation's owner decades after the civil war to memorialize anything or anyone. AND ITS OUT IN BFE.
The White House is akin to a confederate monument for purposes of this discussion? That's absurd. By your "logic" I should advocate for destruction of virtually all antebellum structures built south of the mason dixon line. also absurd
QuoteIn the sense of Free Speech, Freedom of Expression and under the Rule of Law, actually we do.
Yeah if you wanna go down there a spout off about our history as it is in your mind, fine. legal. a monument to intolerance is quite a different thing.
Quote
Even better yet, erect that long-overdue James Weldon Johnson statue elsewhere in the park while you're at it.
QuoteAgreed. How about a statue to Anna Kingsley who was arguably the first woman of African descent to own land in what is now Jacksonville.
equating confederate soldiers with people who actually have done good for the world? "oh well theyre all historic figures der her" chimed the dimwits
Quote
"Confederate Statue - 1898.
The display of this statue is not an endorsement of the confederacy, nor is any social commentary intended by its presence in the park.
add "we condemn the confederacy and strive to not repeat its mistakes" and you may have something. your statement amounts to "we can neither confirm nor deny whether the confederacy is in any way objectionable and wish not to offend any descendants of confederate soldiers"
oh come on keith totally unrelated arguments are what mj is all about baby!
back to hemming. and this is the last thing i'll say re: the daily denizens.
they simply are not a bunch of good honest hard working citizens who are down on their luck and just taking a breather while they try to find work. I cant make this up:
i'm walking to my car after work and one of the regulars drifted down a block to laura and adams. 50-60 y/o white guy, bic bald head, tan, not usually wearing a shirt or just some weird remnant of a shirt. any frequenters of hemming would instantly recognize him.
anyway, you cant make this up: I see him badgering somebody across the street and keep walking thinking glad hes on that side, but he runs across the street with the classic "hey can I ask you a question."
I know whats coming- heard this guys spiel a dozen of times. But no, I don't know whats coming. "hey, hey, hey- you want a hand job? blow job? do you for $80? $40? $5?"
anything to get this type of scum out of the core is a wise decision by me
Quote from: jlmann on July 11, 2017, 09:14:56 AM
back to hemming. and this is the last thing i'll say re: the daily denizens.
they simply are not a bunch of good honest hard working citizens who are down on their luck and just taking a breather while they try to find work. I cant make this up:
i'm walking to my car after work and one of the regulars drifted down a block to laura and adams. 50-60 y/o white guy, bic bald head, tan, not usually wearing a shirt or just some weird remnant of a shirt. any frequenters of hemming would instantly recognize him.
anyway, you cant make this up: I see him badgering somebody across the street and keep walking thinking glad hes on that side, but he runs across the street with the classic "hey can I ask you a question."
I know whats coming- heard this guys spiel a dozen of times. But no, I don't know whats coming. "hey, hey, hey- you want a hand job? blow job? do you for $80? $40? $5?"
anything to get this type of scum out of the core is a wise decision by me
Sounds pretty hardworking to me.
seriously wish I was. it was actually pretty distressing to have this guy running after me. thought of calling the police, but realized I didn't really want to get involved in any of that nonsense and the guy would just be right back dt in a few months while sucking on my tax dollars in prison during the interim
I raised my hand up while he was behind to attempt to say back the f off, but after I realized on the way home he misinterpreted that as a counter offer- thus the drop to $5
also piss off for suggesting i'd make up some story up for purposes of a padding my arguments on a effing mj forum
my opinions are formed from 10+yr being downtown.
go over to vagabond and ask will to give you a top 5 from his year+ down there in the trailer. this incident would fit right in. he's way more qualified than most and certainly anyone here to give an opinion on current state of hemming
he agrees with me. btw
Quote from: jlmann on July 11, 2017, 09:14:56 AM
back to hemming. and this is the last thing i'll say re: the daily denizens.
they simply are not a bunch of good honest hard working citizens who are down on their luck and just taking a breather while they try to find work. I cant make this up:
i'm walking to my car after work and one of the regulars drifted down a block to laura and adams. 50-60 y/o white guy, bic bald head, tan, not usually wearing a shirt or just some weird remnant of a shirt. any frequenters of hemming would instantly recognize him.
anyway, you cant make this up: I see him badgering somebody across the street and keep walking thinking glad hes on that side, but he runs across the street with the classic "hey can I ask you a question."
I know whats coming- heard this guys spiel a dozen of times. But no, I don't know whats coming. "hey, hey, hey- you want a hand job? blow job? do you for $80? $40? $5?"
anything to get this type of scum out of the core is a wise decision by me
Two questions:
1.) Did his hands look soft, like maybe he moisturized?
2.) Did he have narrow, tight lips or were they kind of full and pouty?
*asking for a friend...
Lol at the story. However, COJ could outright close Hemming and it won't change the chance of that happening to someone on a downtown street.
lol idk but you could find him at hemming or a few blocks away to check him out for such purposes. no agreement was reached, but i'd say bring a 20 and your safe
oh itll still happen dt, but if you don't provide a centralized gathering spot for the worst of jax to scheme together on acquiring street drugs it certainly will help
Quote from: jlmann on July 11, 2017, 10:28:31 AM
oh itll still happen dt, but if you don't provide a centralized gathering spot for the worst of jax to scheme together on acquiring street drugs it certainly will help
You don't think they would just do the same thing elsewhere DT? You aren't solving a problem, you are only increasing the burden of the problem by making HP more inhospitable to others.
Quote from: jlmann on July 11, 2017, 10:28:31 AM
...if you don't provide a centralized gathering spot for the worst of jax to scheme together on acquiring street drugs it certainly will help
Don't drag the City Council into this...
QuoteYou don't think they would just do the same thing elsewhere DT? You aren't solving a problem, you are only increasing the burden of the problem by making HP more inhospitable to others.
yes I do. but if they gathered instead in the "park" behind the library that would be a lot better. or find some vacant lot down on church or Ashley.
the suggestion that these actions are increasing the problems of hemming is...hmmm.....false.
curious how many times you been down there in the last few years?
They will gather where the people are. Even if you push their sleeping quarters down a few blocks, they will still converged on where the people are.
You don't solve the problem by simultaneously pushing them out elsewhere and reducing value/use for visitors.
Honestly I don't remember ever being panhandled in Hemming even when there were big crowds. It mostly happens on the streets. And I freaking hate being panhandled.
The last time I was in Jax a group of younger vagrants began yelling at me and the group I was with, near the skyway station in hemming. They shouted some pretty terrible things and we just tried to get out of the area as quickly as possible because they seemed like they might get violent.
The only solution would be to move all of the shelters out of the core and pick up people and move them out of the area to a place where they couldn't use public transit to easily get back. Of course this will never happen because it's unethical.
not unusual jaxjaguar and exactly what I'm trying to get through the heads of people who never visit and think its a bunch of peaceful folks down on their luck. the long time regular guys playing chess and cards keep to themselves- no issue from them and I have no issue with them. its the manic methheads and young pissed off dudes coming off heroin that are the problem
QuoteOf course this will never happen because it's unethical.
well agree to disagree, but that'd be the perfect solution for dt. god forbid someone with absolutely zero to do has to make 2-3 transfers on a bus they don't pay for in order to get from receiving free stuff to the park of their choosing
Quote from: jlmann on July 11, 2017, 02:10:14 PM
not unusual jaxjaguar and exactly what I'm trying to get through the heads of people who never visit and think its a bunch of peaceful folks down on their luck.
I've not spent any real time downtown in over ten years. But I used to work downtown and never had a problem. I just ignored everybody and no one ever really bothered me.
Never been solicited for a handjob, either - I'll try not to take that too personally.
I don't understand why First Baptist Church doesn't have a bigger part to play in aiding the homeless. They have that huge campus and isn't charity somewhere in their mission statement?
Speaking of FBC....
QuoteThe Mathis Report: First Baptist applies for Nocatee campus permit
First Baptist Church of Jacksonville submitted a permit application to build a $10 million church in Nocatee.
Perry-McCall Construction is the contractor for the almost 41,000-square-foot project at 1770 Valley Ridge Blvd.
CDH Partners of Marietta, Georgia, designed the project, shown on plans with a worship center, classrooms, pre-school, offices, catering kitchen, café and spaces for other functions.
Plans also indicate a playground and playing fields.
In February, First Baptist Church said it was awaiting the donations it needs to break ground on the satellite campus, which will be its South Campus.
Judson Leverette, director of business administration for Downtown-based First Baptist, said then that leaders continue to work on architectural plans for First Baptist Church Nocatee.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/the-mathis-report-first-baptist-applies-for-nocatee-campus-permit
Maybe not? The homeless are notoriously bad tithers...
(http://i.imgur.com/lXnhfIf.png)
On a more serious note; I found this: http://www.fbcjax.com/downtown/ministries/local-missions
QuoteMaybe not? The homeless are notoriously bad tithers...
haha exactly- FBC is a business. hard to monetize jesus when youre actually obeying his commands and whatnot
"clothe the middle and upper middle class with a high relative standard of living. feed those who can feed themselves well already. provide programs for their kids so they also shall come and give you money in time."
that's in the bible right?
Quote from: remc86007 on July 11, 2017, 07:23:08 PM
Maybe not? The homeless are notoriously bad tithers...
(http://i.imgur.com/lXnhfIf.png)
On a more serious note; I found this: http://www.fbcjax.com/downtown/ministries/local-missions
I know people from FBC that regularly go out and serve the homeless and partner with groups all across DT. Please don't talk, or search a website for a vague term like charity, and then make judgments. Due diligence my friend.
http://www.fbcjax.com/downtown/ministries/local-missions/
I friend of mine literally goes around helping kids who were in sex slavery through Florida Baptist Children's Homes here in Jacksonville. Trinity Rescue Mission is also closely affiliated with First Baptist and was founded by another Southern Baptist church here in town.
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 12, 2017, 10:18:59 AM
Quote from: remc86007 on July 11, 2017, 07:23:08 PM
Maybe not? The homeless are notoriously bad tithers...
(http://i.imgur.com/lXnhfIf.png)
On a more serious note; I found this: http://www.fbcjax.com/downtown/ministries/local-missions
I know people from FBC that regularly go out and serve the homeless and partner with groups all across DT. Please don't talk, or search a website for a vague term like charity, and then make judgments. Due diligence my friend.
http://www.fbcjax.com/downtown/ministries/local-missions/
I friend of mine literally goes around helping kids who were in sex slavery through Florida Baptist Children's Homes here in Jacksonville. Trinity Rescue Mission is also closely affiliated with First Baptist and was founded by another Southern Baptist church here in town.
Do they do any of those things without trying to talk about "god" or "jesus" to the people they are "helping"? Is it motivated by concern for human suffering or evangelism?
Quote from: FlaBoy on July 12, 2017, 10:18:59 AM
Quote from: remc86007 on July 11, 2017, 07:23:08 PM
Maybe not? The homeless are notoriously bad tithers...
(http://i.imgur.com/lXnhfIf.png)
On a more serious note; I found this: http://www.fbcjax.com/downtown/ministries/local-missions
I know people from FBC that regularly go out and serve the homeless and partner with groups all across DT. Please don't talk, or search a website for a vague term like charity, and then make judgments. Due diligence my friend.
http://www.fbcjax.com/downtown/ministries/local-missions/
I friend of mine literally goes around helping kids who were in sex slavery through Florida Baptist Children's Homes here in Jacksonville. Trinity Rescue Mission is also closely affiliated with First Baptist and was founded by another Southern Baptist church here in town.
^Whoa, it was just a joke, as you can tell if you see that I literally posted the same hyperlink as you in my original post.
I too know people that go to FBC and they are very nice people that try to help others.
not a joke:
its not that fbc doesn't do some good things and I suppose youre suggesting I searched fbc's website for charities? not even sure what you mean there. I haven't seen it, but I'm positive a peak at the budget would show quite clearly what the priorities are. if they were most concerned with caring for the people jesus talked about and seemed to care for the most they wouldn't be leaving for SJC
why are the raising huge amounts of capital for themselves to move to an area that could hardly be described as needy? spending $10mil on a new facility would probably have jesus flipping some tables. such behavior is more akin to the Pharisees than jesus or his disciples
jesus didn't come to convince middle class people that their boring lives are meaningful. thats the main goal of the modern church as I can tell by their actual actions and expenditures.
I've been on the inside of that scene too- these folks know just how to balance projecting righteousness while maintaining an overarching goal of building their own kingdom
mac's salary is definitely too high- but probably not outrageous. However he seems to live like a corporate exec on the generosity of its members. they know how to play the game. just being so blest by the congregation
"No, I don't need that huge house in Deerwood- I make enough to provide my own housing, but thank you. What if we take some of the proceeds from your unneeded house and reach out to the least among us?"
that's a response you'd never hear, but it would actually be consistent with what they preach
Quote from: jlmann on July 12, 2017, 12:27:35 PM
not a joke:
its not that fbc doesn't do some good things and I suppose youre suggesting I searched fbc's website for charities? not even sure what you mean there. I haven't seen it, but I'm positive a peak at the budget would show quite clearly what the priorities are. if they were most concerned with caring for the people jesus talked about and seemed to care for the most they wouldn't be leaving for SJC
why are the raising huge amounts of capital for themselves to move to an area that could hardly be described as needy? spending $10mil on a new facility would probably have jesus flipping some tables. such behavior is more akin to the Pharisees than jesus or his disciples
jesus didn't come to convince middle class people that their boring lives are meaningful. thats the main goal of the modern church as I can tell by their actual actions and expenditures.
I've been on the inside of that scene too- these folks know just how to balance projecting righteousness while maintaining an overarching goal of building their own kingdom
mac's salary is definitely too high- but probably not outrageous. However he seems to live like a corporate exec on the generosity of its members. they know how to play the game. just being so blest by the congregation
"No, I don't need that huge house in Deerwood- I make enough to provide my own housing, but thank you. What if we take some of the proceeds from your unneeded house and reach out to the least among us?"
that's a response you'd never hear, but it would actually be consistent with what they preach
One reason why I stopped attending Celebration... and just to clarify, FBC is not leaving for SJC.
granted they'll have a presence downtown. but is there ANY way maybe they could build a $5mil campus and spend some money dt? of course there is. but there's absolutely more than a grain of truth about DT residents being bad tithers.
they spend money on giving their best customers nice things, not doing good
Empty concrete planters have been attached to what remained of permanent seating space. Looks like there's a fence around the main fountain now too.
Can't imagine how much shittier this park is about to become.
There seemed to be something going up around the Confederate monument last weekend. God, I hope they aren't blocking it off.
Probably ripping out the retaining walls so no one can sit on them, since that's an area where people congregate to play games.
I don't know how everyone else feels about Hemming Park but I think it looks awful. Worse than it has ever looked. How much more awful can they make it look?
"[Undesirables] themselves are not too much of a problem... It is the actions taken to combat them that is the problem... The best way to handle the problem of undesirables is to make a place attractive to everyone else." - William Whyte
Best two words to describe what's going on at Hemming right now: self-defeating.
Can someone post some pics? Please.
I know guys what a loss!
Before we had a wondrous and beautiful meadow of woods chips near our library with native trash sprinkled about. There were even random rectangles of the greyest, smoothest concrete one could ever hope for to gaze upon this meadow. And now? No concrete to sit on and ponder the beauty of the wood chips, now themselves hidden from sight by a foreboding one inch chain, tragically hiding the wonders of this natural beauty and forbidding nature lovers from feeling the satisfying crunch of bark beneath their feet. Most of the trash in that area is even gone. OH! the wonders we deprive future generations of through our short-sighted actions
The 2 foot concrete border of the fountain is truly one of the most underappreciated rectangular slabs of concrete in the southeast. And with all the 90s-era malls closing the country over, the fountains must be preserved. In decades to come we could enjoy all the promenience and tourism associated with having one of the few examples of an outdoor "Late-century suburban child coin receptacle" at our citys core.
How could they do this to our beautiful, beautiful Hemming
^I admire your work.
*doffs hat*
Heard some interesting news today...
Keep an eye on Hemming in the next couple of months.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 09, 2017, 11:40:45 PM
Heard some interesting news today...
Keep an eye on Hemming in the next couple of months.
Less cryptic, please.
They're turning it into a Bono's ;D
Hopefully, they'll do something to address the underutilized spaces immediately surrounding it, like the old church or vacant storefronts at the library. If not, only dealing with the park won't achieve the level of vibrancy people tend to speak of, when they compare it to similiar spaces in more cosmopolitan cities.
Im betting on a combination skateboard park, shuffleboard court and nude beach...
Now that's what i call having something for everyone ;D
Name change coming, in response to Tear 'Em Down Jax. Hemming too closely related to hate.
So, honest question, should the Confederate memorial come down? I honestly don't know what we are honoring with it. Is it historical people who condoned owning other people for commercial profit? Is that we are honoring? Are we honoring the losing side of a war? I understand some may have relatives that served in this war but I am sure people in Germany have relatives who incinerated people in furnaces for their race. Germany outlawed almost any reference to their Nazi heritage. I obviously feel like ours should come down. Just curious what others though.
opinions have been made known here. after this weekends events wonder if we hear any changes of heart or just silence until this blows over and many can return to the BS arguments re:history
Quote from: Dapperdan on August 14, 2017, 10:38:18 AM
So, honest question, should the Confederate memorial come down? I honestly don't know what we are honoring with it. Is it historical people who condoned owning other people for commercial profit? Is that we are honoring? Are we honoring the losing side of a war? I understand some may have relatives that served in this war but I am sure people in Germany have relatives who incinerated people in furnaces for their race. Germany outlawed almost any reference to their Nazi heritage. I obviously feel like ours should come down. Just curious what others though.
Like most confederate memorials, it's mostly a participation trophy....
At least this one is "honoring" the locals that fought and died, as opposed to one of the individual wealthy traitors that are the subject of most of these memorials. One would think it's more of a "safe" memorial, but apparently Gainesville is removing their similar trophy today, so the one here probably only has a decade of time left.
http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2017-08-14/city-gainesville-removes-confederate-statute
I know it is historical and survived the great fire, so I think it should honestly be moved into a museum type setting. If you want to view it you can. Just not in a public square where you are forced to view it.
Quote from: Dapperdan on August 14, 2017, 12:36:27 PM
I know it is historical and survived the great fire, so I think it should honestly be moved into a museum type setting. If you want to view it you can. Just not in a public square where you are forced to view it.
It probably helps that most people don't even notice there's a guy up on the top of that monument.
Tell us again how it's about not forgetting history and not about hate.
Jacksonville council just announced they are inventorying their confederate monument supply for possible relocation to museums and such. That is something at least.
Quote from: jlmann on August 14, 2017, 10:50:38 AM
opinions have been made known here. after this weekends events wonder if we hear any changes of heart or just silence until this blows over and many can return to the BS arguments re:history
Perhaps we are in need of a great historical sanitization... Federal monies to remove all confederate artifacts, street names, schools, towns and counties from public spaces. Monuments to slave holders should/could be torn down. Rename cities like Jackson and Jacksonville... perhaps Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe? US Army bases... Fort Hood, Fort Benning. We are in need of a deep cleaning...
Just move the older Union Soldier's monument from Evergreen to Hemming and change the name back to what it was originally called.....City Park. That way we really won't forget about our history (really, how Jaxsons really know we had a Union Soldier's monument erected in town 7 years earlier?) and the name would be original.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 14, 2017, 01:25:17 PM
Just move the older Union Soldier's monument from Evergreen to Hemming and change the name back to what it was originally called.....City Park. That way we really won't forget about our history (really, how Jaxsons really know we had a Union Soldier's monument erected in town 7 years earlier?) and the name would be original.
Simple and elegant... I like it. Unfortunately it probably will not go down like that
More protests in Hemming, perfect place for them. Lenny gets a front row seat to the circus.
Quote from: jlmann on August 14, 2017, 10:50:38 AM
opinions have been made known here. after this weekends events wonder if we hear any changes of heart or just silence until this blows over and many can return to the BS arguments re:history
I personally stand by my statements made earlier in this thread.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 14, 2017, 01:22:22 PM
Perhaps we are in need of a great historical sanitization... Federal monies to remove all confederate artifacts, street names, schools, towns and counties from public spaces. Monuments to slave holders should/could be torn down. Rename cities like Jackson and Jacksonville... perhaps Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe? US Army bases... Fort Hood, Fort Benning. We are in need of a deep cleaning...
I'm down with this. At least with changing Jacksonville. Andrew Jackson was a hateful clown. It's like naming a current town Trumpville and not wanting to change it when he ends up cleansing the Muslims from our country.
I guess my idea of changing Jacksonville to Jax, FL wasn't so crazy after all. LOL.
Quote from: InnerCityPressure on August 14, 2017, 04:26:50 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 14, 2017, 01:22:22 PM
Perhaps we are in need of a great historical sanitization... Federal monies to remove all confederate artifacts, street names, schools, towns and counties from public spaces. Monuments to slave holders should/could be torn down. Rename cities like Jackson and Jacksonville... perhaps Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe? US Army bases... Fort Hood, Fort Benning. We are in need of a deep cleaning...
I'm down with this. At least with changing Jacksonville. Andrew Jackson was a hateful clown. It's like naming a current town Trumpville and not wanting to change it when he ends up cleansing the Muslims from our country.
I'm not a big philosophy guy, but you should read
Naming and Necessity by Saul Kripke sometime. His basic point is that there is a difference between name and identity, and that words gain their power not by the rigid letters on the page, but by shared experience and context. In other words, our city may have been originally named after Andrew Jackson, but the name "Jacksonville" has gained its strength and meaning through the pooled essence of hundreds of years of our collective experience here in our chunk of Northeast Florida. Though our city's name shares seven-letters with him, Andrew Jackson himself may as well be as irrelevant to the word "Jacksonville" as {Old) York is to New York, or British statesman William Pitt is to Pittsburgh. Totally agree, "Jackson" was a hateful clown who's difficult to admire, but "Jacksonville" is a city that elected its first black mayor six years ago. A city that passed its first HRO recently. A city with the best hospital and one of the lowest unemployment rates in the state. A city that takes amazing care of shelter-animals. A city with beautiful beaches and waterways. These are the things that make up the essence of the word "Jacksonville," not the violent racist in regressive times who someone randomly decided to name the land after. You don't need a statue of the guy staring you in the face, but you also don't need to strip the city of its name.
QuoteI personally stand by my statements made earlier in this thread.
I have no doubt you do. They were so nuanced and well developed. The progression of logic playing out like a timeless symphony. If only Alderman Park were here to accompany you! You two would just shut this thread right on down there pardner.
QuoteI should be remembered alongside bigots and slaveholders for my belief that history should remain intact and in public view despite the ugliness of the truth? Fine.
Aw man lastdays! If you didn't make it to Charlottesville with your brethren, they canceled the Texas A&M event!! Argghh, zionist globalists at it again!!!
Quote from: jlmann on August 15, 2017, 10:56:57 AM
QuoteI should be remembered alongside bigots and slaveholders for my belief that history should remain intact and in public view despite the ugliness of the truth? Fine.
Aw man lastdays! If you didn't make it to Charlottesville with your brethren, they canceled the Texas A&M event!! Argghh, zionist globalists at it again!!!
(https://m.popkey.co/4340ce/KMzYj.gif)
I wrote that in response to an accusation vaulted by you.
But I guess I am an INFOWARS brand
TM crazy right wing loon because I have a single differing opinion from you.
I'll go ahead and take that out of context for you and save you the trouble.
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on August 15, 2017, 07:08:40 PMI am an INFOWARS brandTM crazy right wing loon