Can Jacksonville International Airport be a destination?
What would make an airport a place to want to go, except when you need to catch a flight?
Charlotte thinks an airport can be more than just catching a flight, they want it to be the most attractive destination.
With retail, development and Amazon, all building up around JIA now, do we need to consider what the airport is?
Per Charlotte Agenda:
https://www.charlotteagenda.com/91411/will-land-charlottes-airport-become-destination-instead-departure-point/ (https://www.charlotteagenda.com/91411/will-land-charlottes-airport-become-destination-instead-departure-point/)
Will land by Charlotte's airport become a destination instead of a departure point?
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The city has spent the last two decades stockpiling land around Charlotte Douglas International Airport.
Now Charlotte wants to spend the next two decades turning it into an economic driver.
Can you picture an attractive entertainment district, postmodern office buildings and a major hotel connected to the airport's terminals?
That's the sort of thing being pitched to the City Council by the consulting team hired in 2015 for nearly $1 million.
Their plan would carve the roughly 2,000 vacant acres around the airport into four districts and propose five "catalyst" projects to jump-start their development.
The City Council is going to be briefed Monday on progress on the development plan. Here's where things stand. All images below are from the consultant's report as prepared for Monday's council meeting.
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CLT Gateway
Let's be honest, the area around the airport isn't the prettiest. You're generally jumping on the Billy Graham Parkway or Wilkinson Boulevard after leaving the terminal.
The city's consultants envision a "front door" to Charlotte in the form of an entertainment district just north of the airport. Known as CLT Gateway, this is the sexiest part of the airport's potential development.
Highlights would include a retail and dining village, craft brewery and beer garden, an automotive "test track" experience center and potentially a hotel and meeting center.
All this would, of course, be connected to the center city through the frequently discussed mass transit corridor along Wilkinson. That's how you know this is a long-term vision rather than a short-term plan.
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CLT South
The area to the south would be focused on industry sectors that rely on proximity to air travel — like transportation and logistics businesses, as well as aviation, automotive, and retail fulfillment.
The Norfolk Southern Intermodal Facility is already here and would be expanded.
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CLT West
The plan envisions this area as a new business park and light industrial center. There would be a new connection to I-485 here and a new major road connecting this to the River District (also under development on this 20-year timeframe).
Somehow, the consultants view this as turning into a "walkable, urban, pedestrian friendly, and transit supportive area," so I guess I'll take their word for it.
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Billy Graham corridor
Look for this area to get more quick-service retail, plus gas stations and convenience stores.
The consultants also want to brand this as a kind of "education corridor," with classroom space and perhaps aerospace job skill training programs.
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Why all the focus on western Mecklenburg County?
If you feel like developers are all focusing on this area, you're right. That's because it's essentially Charlotte's final frontier, as a developer once put it to me.
The city is largely fully built out on the north and east sides, and with Waverly and Rea Farms underway there's basically no more land to the south either.
The River District envisions itself as being the next Ballantyne in two decades. Maybe that makes the airport land the next SouthPark?
JIA is twice as far from downtown as Charlotte's airport to its downtown.
This is like having JIA in Panama Park, a mile before Regency Mall, University and I-95, Roosevelt and San Juan or Lane Ave and I-10. Those are all within a 5 mile radius of downtown (same distance Charlotte Intl to their downtown). Charlotte has development to the north, east and south east of the airport already. It's not intentionally 12 miles in the middle of nowhere like JIA is.
Is it a great idea to develop logistics, distribution, warehousing, etc...around JIA? Absolutely. But a regional entertainment destination is, well, just goofy as hell. Do you really want jets flying overhead every 2 minutes rattling your martini glass and drowning out the latest pop tunes (well, maybe that last one)? Rivercity Town Center is just down the street if you really want a retail/restaurant/hotel/housing district near the airport. Charlotte doesn't have anything like that near CLT.
Quote from: Jim on May 22, 2017, 10:02:02 PM
JIA is twice as far from downtown as Charlotte's airport to its downtown.
This is like having JIA in Panama Park, a mile before Regency Mall, University and I-95, Roosevelt and San Juan or Lane Ave and I-10. Those are all within a 5 mile radius of downtown (same distance Charlotte Intl to their downtown). Charlotte has development to the north, east and south east of the airport already. It's not intentionally 12 miles in the middle of nowhere like JIA is.
Is it a great idea to develop logistics, distribution, warehousing, etc...around JIA? Absolutely. But a regional entertainment destination is, well, just goofy as hell. Do you really want jets flying overhead every 2 minutes rattling your martini glass and drowning out the latest pop tunes (well, maybe that last one)? Rivercity Town Center is just down the street if you really want a retail/restaurant/hotel/housing district near the airport. Charlotte doesn't have anything like that near CLT.
They are identical in distance from their respective downtowns. Hard to believe but true.
To me, to get the hookers off the Wilkinson hotel strip north of the airport is an improvement.
Daytona Beach International Airport (DAB) is one of the better examples of an airport that's a destination. Airport property contains not only the airport and airside operations but also Daytona International Speedway, Embry Riddle Aeronautical University, hotels and restaurants between the terminal and US 92/International Speedway Boulevard.
Quote from: spuwho on May 22, 2017, 10:12:56 PM
Quote from: Jim on May 22, 2017, 10:02:02 PM
JIA is twice as far from downtown as Charlotte's airport to its downtown.
This is like having JIA in Panama Park, a mile before Regency Mall, University and I-95, Roosevelt and San Juan or Lane Ave and I-10. Those are all within a 5 mile radius of downtown (same distance Charlotte Intl to their downtown). Charlotte has development to the north, east and south east of the airport already. It's not intentionally 12 miles in the middle of nowhere like JIA is.
Is it a great idea to develop logistics, distribution, warehousing, etc...around JIA? Absolutely. But a regional entertainment destination is, well, just goofy as hell. Do you really want jets flying overhead every 2 minutes rattling your martini glass and drowning out the latest pop tunes (well, maybe that last one)? Rivercity Town Center is just down the street if you really want a retail/restaurant/hotel/housing district near the airport. Charlotte doesn't have anything like that near CLT.
They are identical in distance from their respective downtowns. Hard to believe but true.
To me, to get the hookers off the Wilkinson hotel strip north of the airport is an improvement.
How are their respective distances identical? CLT is 6 miles from CBD. JIA is 12 miles from CBD.
(https://image.ibb.co/bNRh7a/CLT.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/jQ4VtF/JIA.jpg)
How about we first get some more direct flight routes? I am tired of flying out of JIA and having to go through Charlotte, Atlanta, Chicago, or Dallas first . Wish one of the airlines would test a direct Europe flight from JIA. A JAX to Heathrow flight would be so amazing.
Quote from: Dapperdan on May 23, 2017, 10:05:05 AM
How about we first get some more direct flight routes? I am tired of flying out of JIA and having to go through Charlotte, Atlanta, Chicago, or Dallas first . Wish one of the airlines would test a direct Europe flight from JIA. A JAX to Heathrow flight would be so amazing.
Trust me, I'd love this too (I spend a lot of time in the air, and being based in JAX with a travel job is a task). However, I think we're a ways off from a direct to Europe. Part of the challenge is sheer geography of where Jacksonville is located.
Think about this way: The existing carrier most likely to add a direct Europe flight is Delta (United and American have too small of a JAX base here to even consider it). Delta has a direct to Paris (Delta Partner Hub; usually the first European destination Delta adds to a city) from Raleigh-Durham, using a Boeing 757 (their smallest plane that can make the flight; holds about 170 people). That flight is about 4,000 miles. From JAX the flight would be 4,400 miles, and the listed range of the plane is 4,700 miles - likely a little too close for comfort.
The next larger option for Delta is a 767-300ER. This bird has plenty of range to make the flight (about 6,500 miles), but the plane holds about 220 people. The economics of air travel the way they are, you have to fill the plane. RDU can make it work more because it's actually a Delta focus city.
Getting back on topic, I agree with Jim. We're not exactly in a land crunch in this city, so outside of business that makes sense in the airport vicinity, I'm not exactly sure what the draw would be to build a sprawling complex by the airport.
It also depends how you set the airport up - what is there to see / do before passing the security controls (TSA) ? In the US airports I have been to, most amenities are after the TSA checks (Philadelphia was the worst - had a hard time finding a place to get a coffee).
This is totally fine if you see the airport as a destination for travelers only, but if you want to make it a destination for people who do not want to fly, there has to be something interesting to see without having to go through security.
Quote from: Jim on May 23, 2017, 09:22:52 AM
Quote from: spuwho on May 22, 2017, 10:12:56 PM
Quote from: Jim on May 22, 2017, 10:02:02 PM
JIA is twice as far from downtown as Charlotte's airport to its downtown.
This is like having JIA in Panama Park, a mile before Regency Mall, University and I-95, Roosevelt and San Juan or Lane Ave and I-10. Those are all within a 5 mile radius of downtown (same distance Charlotte Intl to their downtown). Charlotte has development to the north, east and south east of the airport already. It's not intentionally 12 miles in the middle of nowhere like JIA is.
Is it a great idea to develop logistics, distribution, warehousing, etc...around JIA? Absolutely. But a regional entertainment destination is, well, just goofy as hell. Do you really want jets flying overhead every 2 minutes rattling your martini glass and drowning out the latest pop tunes (well, maybe that last one)? Rivercity Town Center is just down the street if you really want a retail/restaurant/hotel/housing district near the airport. Charlotte doesn't have anything like that near CLT.
They are identical in distance from their respective downtowns. Hard to believe but true.
To me, to get the hookers off the Wilkinson hotel strip north of the airport is an improvement.
How are their respective distances identical? CLT is 6 miles from CBD. JIA is 12 miles from CBD.
(https://image.ibb.co/bNRh7a/CLT.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/jQ4VtF/JIA.jpg)
As the crow flies perhaps, but not everyone can fly like that.
I used Google Maps and asked each city to route me each cities Bank of America Tower to their respective airports.
Try that and see what comes up.
JAX should've stayed on N Main St. There was plenty of room to extend the runways and expand facilities. A short drive north of downtown was all it took to get there. Placing JIA so far to the north on I95 put the airport out of the commercial boundaries of the city. Intrastate travel was hardest hit. Why drive to JIA for a 45 minute flight to TPA or TLH? Out of sight and out of mind. Cities where the airport is really integrated in the commercial bustle gives impetus to the things that are written of in the article. Great examples are Tampa, Miami, Fort Lauderdale. Methinks North Jax landowners pushed for an entirely new facility in the late 60's and had the local city gov't hicks behind it and they scored on the sale of otherwise crummy scrubland and commercial aviation took the hit. Not that there's huge demand for air travel to or from here. The airlines are well aware of the profit potential and the lack of air service in Jax is just.
Quote from: spuwho on May 23, 2017, 12:17:46 PM
Quote from: Jim on May 23, 2017, 09:22:52 AM
Quote from: spuwho on May 22, 2017, 10:12:56 PM
Quote from: Jim on May 22, 2017, 10:02:02 PM
JIA is twice as far from downtown as Charlotte's airport to its downtown.
This is like having JIA in Panama Park, a mile before Regency Mall, University and I-95, Roosevelt and San Juan or Lane Ave and I-10. Those are all within a 5 mile radius of downtown (same distance Charlotte Intl to their downtown). Charlotte has development to the north, east and south east of the airport already. It's not intentionally 12 miles in the middle of nowhere like JIA is.
Is it a great idea to develop logistics, distribution, warehousing, etc...around JIA? Absolutely. But a regional entertainment destination is, well, just goofy as hell. Do you really want jets flying overhead every 2 minutes rattling your martini glass and drowning out the latest pop tunes (well, maybe that last one)? Rivercity Town Center is just down the street if you really want a retail/restaurant/hotel/housing district near the airport. Charlotte doesn't have anything like that near CLT.
They are identical in distance from their respective downtowns. Hard to believe but true.
To me, to get the hookers off the Wilkinson hotel strip north of the airport is an improvement.
How are their respective distances identical? CLT is 6 miles from CBD. JIA is 12 miles from CBD.
(https://image.ibb.co/bNRh7a/CLT.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/jQ4VtF/JIA.jpg)
As the crow flies perhaps, but not everyone can fly like that.
I used Google Maps and asked each city to route me each cities Bank of America Tower to their respective airports.
Try that and see what comes up.
18 mins for the 14.6 mile trip in Jax.
9 mins for the 6.5 mile trip in Charlotte.
If you are using Google Maps, it's going to calculate that accident on Wilkinson Blvd before Ashley Rd.
Try MapQuest or something that doesn't add in real time traffic.
Quote from: turdhead on May 23, 2017, 02:41:21 PM
JAX should've stayed on N Main St. There was plenty of room to extend the runways and expand facilities. A short drive north of downtown was all it took to get there. Placing JIA so far to the north on I95 put the airport out of the commercial boundaries of the city. Intrastate travel was hardest hit. Why drive to JIA for a 45 minute flight to TPA or TLH? Out of sight and out of mind. Cities where the airport is really integrated in the commercial bustle gives impetus to the things that are written of in the article. Great examples are Tampa, Miami, Fort Lauderdale. Methinks North Jax landowners pushed for an entirely new facility in the late 60's and had the local city gov't hicks behind it and they scored on the sale of otherwise crummy scrubland and commercial aviation took the hit. Not that there's huge demand for air travel to or from here. The airlines are well aware of the profit potential and the lack of air service in Jax is just.
JAX certainly isn't unique in that. Look at what Denver did - the airport is nowhere near the city....and that land was set aside in the late 80's/early 90's. I do agree that having an airport close to downtown can certainly be a benefit - San Diego is a great example of this, though because of the proximity the airport is limited in growth.
Personally, I'm not convinced that intrastate travel was hit hard because of the airport's location. Back in the 60's, there were a lot more shorter flights, but the hub and spoke model eliminated that much more than an airport's locale.
I live south of Downtown can be in the terminal (parked and walking up) in 35 minutes from my house, and I'm through security in 5-10 (thanks TSA PreCheck). That's at or better than most airports in America, particularly big cities. I travel a good bit for work, but I'll still drive if the drive is 4 hours or less - doesn't make sense to fly. I can fly direct to TPA, so let's assume:
- 35 minutes drive to the terminal (including parking)
- 10 through security
- 40 minutes prior to departure for boarding
- 60 minutes gate to gate
- 15 minutes from deplaning to getting rental car or Uber
- 20 minutes to final destination
That's three hours based on what I'd consider an aggressive timeline with no issues. I can do the drive in less than 4.
I'd say that you'd be challenged to have a tighter timeline than that in any city Jacksonville's size or larger in America.
Make Jacksonville a destination and JIA will, in turn, become a destination. Same old tale of "we need to be somebody else" syndrome.
Quote from: Elwood on May 23, 2017, 05:26:54 PM
Make Jacksonville a destination and JIA will, in turn, become a destination. Same old tale of "we need to be somebody else" syndrome.
PREACH. People still fly to New York, LA and Chicago, and by and large their airports are hellholes.
Quote from: Dapperdan on May 23, 2017, 10:05:05 AM
How about we first get some more direct flight routes? I am tired of flying out of JIA and having to go through Charlotte, Atlanta, Chicago, or Dallas first . Wish one of the airlines would test a direct Europe flight from JIA. A JAX to Heathrow flight would be so amazing.
Sanford has a few flights to the UK. It would be nice to see JIA pickup a few flights if only seasonal.
Quote from: JaxAvondale on May 23, 2017, 06:53:46 PM
Quote from: Dapperdan on May 23, 2017, 10:05:05 AM
How about we first get some more direct flight routes? I am tired of flying out of JIA and having to go through Charlotte, Atlanta, Chicago, or Dallas first . Wish one of the airlines would test a direct Europe flight from JIA. A JAX to Heathrow flight would be so amazing.
Sanford has a few flights to the UK. It would be nice to see JIA pickup a few flights if only seasonal.
As I was leaving Sanford 2 weeks ago, a flight crew from Thomson UK was coming up the escalator in perfect 1960's era flight attendant garb.
Off the bat, when I think of 'airport destination' in the US, I think of Hartsfield in ATL.
Interesting that Jax will be included in the initial rollout of Apple's indoor airport maps.