An update on the status of Unity Plaza. Btw, while Brooklyn has the potential to one day grow into a denser neighborhood, everyone would do Unity Plaza a big favor by stop comparing it to NYC's Bryant Park. They aren't alike and never will be. That's about as apples and oranges as we can make, in terms of surrounding context and environment.
QuoteBuilt with $2.6 million in taxpayer money, Unity Plaza opened with visions of becoming "the central park" of Jacksonville, a place where people would converge from across the city for events at an amphitheater next to a large pond where a fountain shot water into the air.
Two years later, the partnership between the city of Jacksonville and a nonprofit organization overseeing Unity Plaza hasn't achieved its lofty goal. But officials say the concept is sound, and as the Brooklyn neighborhood sees more development, Unity Plaza will become a destination.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2017-05-16/so-far-unity-plaza-not-bringing-people-together
The Central Park or Bryant Park language was always bizarre to me. Completely counterproductive and indicative of an incredibly narrow understanding of this country, this state, this city. Forget NYC, Chicago, San Francisco -- they simply don't apply in the South as any sort of urban core model.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on May 17, 2017, 08:43:34 AM
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on May 17, 2017, 08:40:29 AM
Just went to the "events" calendar. March is my personal favorite:
http://unityplaza.org/events/2017-03/
Wow, that is a lot of yoga. And, no, I wouldnt count those as "events". Those are "classes".
The day I turn up to do yoga will be a fucking event, for sure.
The city put a lot of money into that park. "Good enough" doesn't seem like a great return on investment compared to what was promised.
At this point, revisiting the placement of a limited service hotel facing Unity Plaza (right on top of that dirt parking lot) would be best for its retail spaces. There's no hotel in this area of the core and hotel guest tend to eat out at least three times a day. Something like an Aloft would probably do well there, being so close to DT and Riverside.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on May 17, 2017, 08:40:29 AM
Just went to the "events" calendar. March is my personal favorite:
http://unityplaza.org/events/2017-03/
I've been to a couple of decent sized events there in the past couple months that aren't on that calendar. One, the Walk for Wishes for the Make a Wish Foundation, packed the park with about 600 people from 8 am until 1 pm.
Hallmark never finished the plaza, which is my main issue. There was supposed to be a huge sculpture in the pond, the north side was supposed to be landscaped and some sort of seating area, there was supposed to be a beer garden, etc.... At this point, I think their energy should be spent building 200 riverside and the hotel, but the city should hold them accountable to deliver what they promised.
The layout is kind of bizarre...that said, first to admit I haven´t spent enough time there.
The last time I was there, it just felt like a shitload of poured concrete. An awkward space, at best.
And yes, the comparisons to bigger and better parks need to stop. It´s counter productive to put it lightly.
This area needs a hotel (Aloft was a good idea) and things may start to shift.
Who in the world was comparing it to Bryant Park and why? Bryant sits in Midtown (one of the densest neighborhoods in NYC), is 2 blocks from Grand Central Station (same distance to Skyway maintenance facility), 2 blocks from the southern edge of Times Square and 6 blocks from Rockefeller Center.
Yoga is about the only thing they have in common.
It is surrounded nearly completely by empty lots and gated parking. There is almost zero foot traffic.
Fill in some of those empty spaces, and there may be more people.
Quote from: Jim on May 17, 2017, 10:36:09 AM
Who in the world was comparing it to Bryant Park and why? Bryant sits in Midtown (one of the densest neighborhoods in NYC), is 2 blocks from Grand Central Station (same distance to Skyway maintenance facility), 2 blocks from the southern edge of Times Square and 6 blocks from Rockefeller Center.
Yoga is about the only thing they have in common.
I think you answered your own question.
Namaste
Even with all of the great projects that have been finished in Brooklyn I saw this coming from a mile away. The area just isn't dense enough yet to support an amenity like Unity Plaza, especially when the people in 220 hate the place because of the noise when they do have events. Brooklyn has potential, but its about time we started to see some density in the area. A parking lot facing Riverside Avenue and all of those empty lots do a disservice the urban neighborhood that Brooklyn has the potential to be.
Quote from: ben says on May 17, 2017, 10:06:30 AM
The layout is kind of bizarre...that said, first to admit I haven´t spent enough time there.
The last time I was there, it just felt like a shitload of poured concrete. An awkward space, at best.
And yes, the comparisons to bigger and better parks need to stop. It´s counter productive to put it lightly.
This area needs a hotel (Aloft was a good idea) and things may start to shift.
Unity Plaza is very awkward and unwelcoming. I don't even think of it as a park. It's just an extension of the development.
They wanted to make this a place for open-air concerts, but i just don't see it happening with Daily's Place set to be finished soon.
Then again competition is always a good thing in the music venue game.
I agree that it is awkward and unwelcoming. If there isn't an event going on, I feel awkward being there as if I am trespassing in a common area of the apartment building.
I agree it's uninviting. It must be awful attending an afternoon event in summer with all those concrete steps and no shade. You can hardly call that structure in the retention pond a fountain. It looks like a concrete bunker that sprung a plumbing leak in the ceiling. I've never understood the attraction. I didn't know it wasn't completed. Some shade, even a bunch of trees in large pots, would go a long way to making it more attractive. And do something with that "fountain." :-)
The retaining pond that was going to change the world.
Welcome to the Neighborhood.
Councilman Anderson requested 3 issues to be addressed.
3 Guys will get together and Fix it.
Aundra
Guy
Steve
Should be a follow up noticed meeting. Councilman Newby doesn't want to move. Stay positive.
Visit Jacksonville!
It will take more than those three to fix it. The usage of Unity Plaza is a density problem. There's only two small apartment complexes and a hand full of residents in Brooklyn. Gate Parkway is denser. Brooklyn needs about 20 more 220 Riversides, as opposed to low density development like the Gate gas station on Forest, if we really want Unity Plaza to have consistent foot traffic.
There is no There there. Density won't help unless the Plaza becomes more than a car-centric restaurant venue.
No matter what you put in the park, it will struggle without density. Density is what should surround the space, which will make it a pedestrian-centric venue, as opposed to car-centric.
Right. It is surrounded by empty lots. And across the street on the river side is a private parking lot.
There's almost no foot traffic.
Before Unity Plaza there was a community in place in Brooklyn. The remainder of the community exists with tree shaded streets and older homes connected in a walkable grid to commercial places along Park Street and over the viaducts. The development put in its place is now barricaded on one side and facing onto a multilane highway on the other. Connections to the river, the older neighborhood, the commercial streets, downtown are fragile and daunting. When more people want to live there it will be because the place is liveable.
Quote from: Jumpinjack on May 18, 2017, 08:49:26 AM
Before Unity Plaza there was a community in place in Brooklyn. The remainder of the community exists with tree shaded streets and older homes connected in a walkable grid to commercial places along Park Street and over the viaducts. The development put in its place is now barricaded on one side and facing onto a multilane highway on the other. Connections to the river, the older neighborhood, the commercial streets, downtown are fragile and daunting. When more people want to live there it will be because the place is liveable.
At least in the area where Unity Plaza is now, there hadn't been a community in many years. Riverside Avenue was widened in the early 2000s and most of the homes were gone long before that. Even then, the number of remaining homes in the old area northwest of Park Street has been small for decades.
However, there's a pretty wide gap between what the developers promised with Riverside 220 (and received pretty substantial subsidies for), and what was actually built. Unity Plaza is case-in-point. The design was supposed to be much better and there was supposed to be a public-private partnership programming it. As it is, it's nice feature for people who live there, and something to walk through for people going from the parking lot to the restaurants. It would be one thing if they hadn't gotten millions in incentives from the city for the development.
Quote from: Tacachale on May 18, 2017, 09:29:48 AM
However, there's a pretty wide gap between what the developers promised with Riverside 220 (and received pretty substantial subsidies for), and what was actually built. Unity Plaza is case-in-point. The design was supposed to be much better and there was supposed to be a public-private partnership programming it. As it is, it's nice feature for people who live there, and something to walk through for people going from the parking lot to the restaurants. It would be one thing if they hadn't gotten millions in incentives from the city for the development.
^ This!!
Quote from: pierre on May 18, 2017, 08:26:03 AM
Right. It is surrounded by empty lots. And across the street on the river side is a private parking lot.
There's almost no foot traffic.
Not to mention the fact that the whole area is very poorly lit at night.
For a fraction of what was spent on this glorified retention pond had been spent in Hemming Plaza, a genuinely successful gathering spot could have been created.
As it always has, Coj thinks creating a 'pretty spot' is all it takes to create an successful urban setting. Remember the park across from the back side of the Library? There was another pocket park created before that one too. I guess they thought the third time would be the charm.
Quote from: vicupstate on May 18, 2017, 01:14:03 PM
For a fraction of what was spent on this glorified retention pond had been spent in Hemming Plaza, a genuinely successful gathering spot could have been created.
As it always has, Coj thinks creating a 'pretty spot' is all it takes to create an successful urban setting. Remember the park across from the back side of the Library? There was another pocket park created before that one too. I guess they thought the third time would be the charm.
Not really what happened. The city put money into a public-private partnership that wasn't fully completed as promised. The city's major fault appears to have been signing the contract with no guarantees that it would be completed, or that the partnership programming the park would achieve specific benchmarks for events. Unfortunately, that was pretty characteristic of COJ at the time.
Here is the original thread, some interesting comments.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-nov-a-look-at-brooklyns-proposed-unity-plaza
Quote from: Tacachale on May 18, 2017, 02:47:14 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on May 18, 2017, 01:14:03 PM
For a fraction of what was spent on this glorified retention pond had been spent in Hemming Plaza, a genuinely successful gathering spot could have been created.
As it always has, Coj thinks creating a 'pretty spot' is all it takes to create an successful urban setting. Remember the park across from the back side of the Library? There was another pocket park created before that one too. I guess they thought the third time would be the charm.
Not really what happened. The city put money into a public-private partnership that wasn't fully completed as promised. The city's major fault appears to have been signing the contract with no guarantees that it would be completed, or that the partnership programming the park would achieve specific benchmarks for events. Unfortunately, that was pretty characteristic of COJ at the time.
Even if it looked better, it would still need the programming to meet the original hype. Even then it would have challenges. The location just doesn't work.
These comments from Saw Palmetto in the original thread, sum it up well:
Inwardly, there are some good features. Outwardly, I would say it's not even close to making the best of an already awkward location. It's like a side yard to a single place rather than something central to several. I think it will only remain that way for the foreseeable future because of the way connections seem like an afterthought rather than smooth-as-butter, as should be expected when the word "plaza" is adopted. Forest serves as a wall, and that's whether there were anything immediately across it to begin with. The design seems to be giving a great deal of attention to the Magnolia and Forest corner, but Magnolia doesn't even at least offer a crossing at Forest of any legal sort. At the same time, the design appears to be directly ignoring its most "duh" pedestrian connection at Riverside & Forest in favor of a park entrance further up Riverside oriented towards its parking spaces. Ever heard of a drive-to "plaza"?
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on May 18, 2017, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: civil42806 on May 18, 2017, 03:06:29 PM
Here is the original thread, some interesting comments.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-nov-a-look-at-brooklyns-proposed-unity-plaza
Good Find. A quick skim of the comments and grades are as follows:
Tufsu1: A
Everyone else : K (for koolaid drinkers)
Not true. There are many things to appreciate about Unity Plaza. For starters, it made one big retention pond that could be used as a water feature, instead of a bunch of small ones connected to every development all across the neighborhood. That was an innovative choice that is still worthy of support.
Quote from: vicupstate on May 18, 2017, 03:41:38 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on May 18, 2017, 02:47:14 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on May 18, 2017, 01:14:03 PM
For a fraction of what was spent on this glorified retention pond had been spent in Hemming Plaza, a genuinely successful gathering spot could have been created.
As it always has, Coj thinks creating a 'pretty spot' is all it takes to create an successful urban setting. Remember the park across from the back side of the Library? There was another pocket park created before that one too. I guess they thought the third time would be the charm.
Not really what happened. The city put money into a public-private partnership that wasn't fully completed as promised. The city's major fault appears to have been signing the contract with no guarantees that it would be completed, or that the partnership programming the park would achieve specific benchmarks for events. Unfortunately, that was pretty characteristic of COJ at the time.
Even if it looked better, it would still need the programming to meet the original hype. Even then it would have challenges. The location just doesn't work.
These comments from Saw Palmetto in the original thread, sum it up well:
Inwardly, there are some good features. Outwardly, I would say it's not even close to making the best of an already awkward location. It's like a side yard to a single place rather than something central to several. I think it will only remain that way for the foreseeable future because of the way connections seem like an afterthought rather than smooth-as-butter, as should be expected when the word "plaza" is adopted. Forest serves as a wall, and that's whether there were anything immediately across it to begin with. The design seems to be giving a great deal of attention to the Magnolia and Forest corner, but Magnolia doesn't even at least offer a crossing at Forest of any legal sort. At the same time, the design appears to be directly ignoring its most "duh" pedestrian connection at Riverside & Forest in favor of a park entrance further up Riverside oriented towards its parking spaces. Ever heard of a drive-to "plaza"?
Saw Palmetto's post is prescient, but my post was referring to the fact that COJ didn't design this space. This was a private development that the city helped fund. Even beyond that, while Unity Plaza is a disappointment, it's not an all out failure.
The bigger problem is really the amount of money the city put into it compared to how it turned out. That issue goes back before that thread to how the whole Riverside 220 development was designed. The lack of programming is a real problem considering that the city gave them $750,000 for it (with no guarantees they would actually do it). Yoga and exercise classes on the lawn are fine, but they're the kind of thing that a lot of apartment complexes do without incentives from the city.
Quote from: sanmarcomatt on May 18, 2017, 04:54:51 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on May 18, 2017, 04:14:47 PM
Not true. There are many things to appreciate about Unity Plaza. For starters, it made one big retention pond that could be used as a water feature, instead of a bunch of small ones connected to every development all across the neighborhood. That was an innovative choice that is still worthy of support.
We agree to disagree as I see nothing to appreciate. We went once and found it to be a concrete nightmare. I doubt we will ever return with the one exception being an event specific to one of the causes that we financially support. I wouldn't care except for the waste of tax payer dollars . On a positive note, I am glad the funds were thrown away supporting shoddily built apartments in the urban core as opposed to another shoddily built development on the Southside. See..?I am being supportive!
Well, I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be visiting five or six retention ponds taking up real estate across Brooklyn all that often either.
We touched this a bit in my Brooklyn Gentrification thread. This pretty well sums up my thinking on Unity Plaza
QuoteQuote from: Kerry on August 02, 2016, 10:31:50 PMFourth, I'll give you this, Unity Plaza isn't conducive to reading a book. There is no shade and you have to sit on concrete with no back support. However, I have seen people laying out on the fake grass and I have played soccer with my two teenage boys there. However, Unity Plaza wasn't designed to be a passive recreation area - it is a programed event driven facility. On almost every weekend night and Saturday morning there is some type of live music or event. If you want passive just cross the street to the Riverwalk. It is so passive it can be sleep inducing.
Okay, reading a book was just an example I know it's not a passive park. My broader point is that I wouldn't feel very welcome there if I wasn't going to one of the restaurants or attending an event. I mean look at like you were visiting for the first time. Unity Plaza appears as just an extension of 220 Riverside, not a park. Even the signage facing Riverside Avenue looks like it's the name of the development. I feel like it's purpose is so the developers could say, "Hey we're gonna cut down a bunch of trees, cover all this nice open green space so close to downtown and the river with parking lots, but at least we're putting in a 'park' ". Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Unity Plaza a private partnership with COJ. Without digging too much, I'd imagine the land isn't even owned by the city. A quick look at the website says © 2016 Jacksonville Unity Plaza, Inc.. So, am I even welcome there as a non-resident or a patron of a business there? It's owned by a private entity, doesn't look like a public park to me.
Welcome to the Neighborhood.
Parking was another issue at the 5/10/17 meeting.
Welcome any correction on this but An action has triggered another action that is changing the previous parking. Mr. Newby was explaining this.
One of the guys indicated that this didn't happen on his watch.
Signage should correct some of this.
There is a retntion pond across the street and down a block. I've never seen anyone picnic next to it.
Quote from: KenFSU on May 18, 2017, 12:28:42 PM
Quote from: pierre on May 18, 2017, 08:26:03 AM
Right. It is surrounded by empty lots. And across the street on the river side is a private parking lot.
There's almost no foot traffic.
Not to mention the fact that the whole area is very poorly lit at night.
Serious question...have you ever been around there at night? There might be problems but lack of lighting isn't one of them. The whole area around 220, Brooklyn Station, and Brooklyn Riverside is lit up like noon on June 21.
Does anyone know if the "4 story glass lotus sculpture" will ever be installed? Or has that been scrapped? I remember reading it would take a while to create, but it seems like it's been 3 or 4 years since it was announced...
Quote from: jaxjaguar on November 25, 2017, 11:02:15 PM
Does anyone know if the "4 story glass lotus sculpture" will ever be installed? Or has that been scrapped? I remember reading it would take a while to create, but it seems like it's been 3 or 4 years since it was announced...
Any info on if this is still happening?
Also, "Vista Brooklyn" or whatever it's being called also seems to have stalled.
Quote from: Steve on December 21, 2017, 10:58:49 AM
Also, "Vista Brooklyn" or whatever it's being called also seems to have stalled.
Has it?
I thought the developer said construction was set to break ground early next year.
This is not a surprise, for many reasons.
Nothing is likely to change until that area sees foot traffic, which will only come from more residents.
Quote from: pierre on December 21, 2017, 01:16:43 PM
This is not a surprise, for many reasons.
Nothing is likely to change until that area sees foot traffic, which will only come from more residents.
So what's going to get more residents into that area? Particularly residents who will actually utilize the foot traffic and not just drive everywhere all the time, like you see in so many other suburbs of a large city.
Quote from: KenFSU on December 21, 2017, 12:27:57 PM
Quote from: Steve on December 21, 2017, 10:58:49 AM
Also, "Vista Brooklyn" or whatever it's being called also seems to have stalled.
Has it?
I thought the developer said construction was set to break ground early next year.
I mean, this is a project that shouldn't be THAT complex. We're not renovating a historic building or cleaning up toxic land here. This was approved 6 months ago. Not a good sign.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on December 22, 2017, 01:47:14 AM
Quote from: pierre on December 21, 2017, 01:16:43 PM
This is not a surprise, for many reasons.
Nothing is likely to change until that area sees foot traffic, which will only come from more residents.
So what's going to get more residents into that area? Particularly residents who will actually utilize the foot traffic and not just drive everywhere all the time, like you see in so many other suburbs of a large city.
The market has been good for a while now. I suspect it will be after another recession before Brooklyn gets anywhere close enough to support the type of density needed to keep Unity Plaza filled with people. Even then, they're more likely to migrate to a real park or the riverwalk instead of a retention pond next to two six lane roads.
Quote from: Steve on December 22, 2017, 10:29:47 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on December 21, 2017, 12:27:57 PM
Quote from: Steve on December 21, 2017, 10:58:49 AM
Also, "Vista Brooklyn" or whatever it's being called also seems to have stalled.
Has it?
I thought the developer said construction was set to break ground early next year.
This is a concrete building, not wood frame on a concrete base floor. Thus costs is higher, return not as good and money harder to find.
I mean, this is a project that shouldn't be THAT complex. We're not renovating a historic building or cleaning up toxic land here. This was approved 6 months ago. Not a good sign.
^Not sure I get your post. Are you referring to the concrete building and costs being higher? That doesn't make it "complex", it makes it expensive. Either you can make the economics work or you can't.
With historic or environmental issues, there's tons of red tape that can delay things. The only thing delaying things at this point is their estimated ROI. To me, either it's there or it's not. If we're delaying because of this, then that means they're concerned about the economics - to my point about it being not a good sign.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 22, 2017, 10:37:43 AM
The market has been good for a while now. I suspect it will be after another recession before Brooklyn gets anywhere close enough to support the type of density needed to keep Unity Plaza filled with people. Even then, they're more likely to migrate to a real park or the riverwalk instead of a retention pond next to two six lane roads.
Do you think a road diet would positively contribute to density? And are there any other improvements that could be made to Unity that would bring people to it?
I checked out Unity Plaza. The area is simply not very pedestrian-friendly/accommodative/inviting. To achieve a "village feel," which ultimately drives foot traffic and patronage, you really need the right balance between sidewalks and roadway. Right now, the sidewalk-to-roadway ratio in Brooklyn is simply too small to drive the kind of foot traffic that could make storefronts in Unity Plaza successful. If there were a narrow side street off Riverside with storefronts lining it, even that might be much more appealing.
And yes, I've always felt Unity Plaza is overrated. I drove by recently and it really looks like a landscaped retention pond. Is there an alternative to these ponds in inner city Jax? 220 Riverside would have been more attractive, IMO, building right up to the corner with perhaps a 7-1-1 on the ground floor, and apartments above it. I'm no civil engineer, but if new developments are going to require these ponds, this city will always be plagued with a sprawling look and feel.
Unity Plaza, District-Life Well Lived, can we please stop with these gimmicky contrivances?
Happy Holidays.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on December 22, 2017, 08:23:16 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 22, 2017, 10:37:43 AM
The market has been good for a while now. I suspect it will be after another recession before Brooklyn gets anywhere close enough to support the type of density needed to keep Unity Plaza filled with people. Even then, they're more likely to migrate to a real park or the riverwalk instead of a retention pond next to two six lane roads.
Do you think a road diet would positively contribute to density? And are there any other improvements that could be made to Unity that would bring people to it?
Yes, road diet would help tremendously. Alex Coley (the principal developed quoted in the article) was advocating for one. If they actually stuck with the regular programming it could also help, although I think ultimately still would be suffering from lack of residents. Best case scenario in the not-too-extremely-long-term would be to see the Vista development completed, the often-teased adjacent hotel occur, and then whatever other development can occur near the Park St corridor. Riverside Ave won't see anything change soon and I expect the Y parking lot and the TU parcel to really be long term.
Quote from: Steve on December 22, 2017, 12:38:48 PM
^Not sure I get your post. Are you referring to the concrete building and costs being higher? That doesn't make it "complex", it makes it expensive. Either you can make the economics work or you can't.
With historic or environmental issues, there's tons of red tape that can delay things. The only thing delaying things at this point is their estimated ROI. To me, either it's there or it's not. If we're delaying because of this, then that means they're concerned about the economics - to my point about it being not a good sign.
That's my point. The economics are not as good as previous projects. Cost are higher and return lower. Same goes for Berkman Plaza II and it's 10 year stall.