Apparently BREXIT has inflamed tensions between Spain and Britain over "The Rock"...
Adam... anything to add to the Gibraltar issue from your side of the pond?
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/03/522484447/the-dust-up-over-gibraltar-whats-the-big-deal-about-the-little-peninsula
QuoteThe Dust-Up Over Gibraltar: What's The Big Deal About The Little Peninsula?
April 3, 20177:06 PM ET
Let's get something straight up front: Spain and the U.K. are not going to war over Gibraltar.
That, at least, is what politicians from both countries have been carefully asserting since Michael Howard, a former British Conservative party leader, made a not-so-subtle suggestion Sunday that force would be on the table in some recent unpleasantness over the long-disputed peninsula.
"Thirty-five years ago this week, another woman prime minister sent a task force halfway across the world to defend the freedom of another small group of British people against another Spanish-speaking country," Howard told an interviewer, referring to the brief 1982 Falklands War between the U.K. and Argentina, "and I'm absolutely certain that our current prime minister will show the same resolve in standing by the people of Gibraltar."
Asked about Howard's comment Monday, Prime Minister Theresa May's spokesman made her answer plain, the Guardian reports: "It isn't going to happen."
May herself laughed when asked by reporters whether she'd rule out war with Spain. She told reporters the fraught talk over Gibraltar — a tiny chunk of land contiguous with Spain but controlled by the U.K. — is merely part and parcel of British negotiations to leave the European Union. Those talks formally kicked off last week, when May triggered the U.K.'s departure.
"What we are doing with all European countries in the European Union is sitting down and talking to them. We are going to talk to them about the best possible deal for the United Kingdom and for those countries, Spain included," May said.
"Someone in the U.K. is losing their cool and there's no need for it," Spanish Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis also cautioned, when asked about Howard's comment.
Still, the question bears asking: Why is it that a roughly 2.5-square-mile peninsula parked on the southwest tip of Europe — with just about 30,000 people on it — has international leaders so worked up?
The answer, as it turns out, can be taken in three parts:
The Brouhaha over Brexit
The Backstory
The Brits on the Rock
The Brouhaha Over Brexit
While there has been no lack of friction between the two countries over the past three centuries on the topic of Gibraltar — more on that in the next section — the point of contention that has stoked tensions lately pertains to (what else?) Brexit.
Shortly after May triggered Brexit, the EU issued a nine-page document that laid out its draft negotiating guidelines for the 27 countries remaining in the union. For the most part, those guidelines looked much as people expected — yet a surprising statement lurked near the end:
"After the United Kingdom leaves the union, no agreement between the EU and the United Kingdom may apply to the territory of Gibraltar without the agreement between the Kingdom of Spain and the United Kingdom."
That proposed condition came as unwelcome news to British lawmakers, who widely viewed it as giving Spain veto power over any agreement on Gibraltar's fate — and thus, an encroachment on British authority over the territory it has owned (despite occasional protests from Spain) since 1713.
"Gibraltar is not a bargaining chip in these negotiations. Gibraltar belongs to the Gibraltarians and we want to stay British," Gibraltar Chief Minister Fabian Picardo said, according to the BBC.
Likening Brexit to a divorce, he cast European Council President Donald Tusk as "a cuckolded husband who is taking it out on the children."
The Backstory
May laughed off the prospect of war this time around — but the Rock of Gibraltar is no stranger to spilled blood.
The land mass doesn't boast much in the way of natural resources, but its position as a hinge point between the Atlantic Ocean and the Mediterranean Sea, standing between Europe and Africa, made it an attractive possession for the colonial powers.
Captured from the Spanish in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession, Gibraltar was ceded to the British "in perpetuity" in the Treaty of Utrecht, the peace that ultimately brought that fight to a close in 1713.
Naturally, that was by no means the end of the dispute, which has manifested itself by turns as heated words, blockades and even further violence. Later that century, for instance, the Spanish launched a yearslong — and unsuccessful — siege that bequeathed no greater fruit than a rather stirring painting by John Trumbull.
More recently, Lauren Frayer reported for NPR that in 1969 Spanish dictator Francisco Franco closed the territory's border with Spain, effectively isolating it from all but sea and air travel. Spain maintained this policy on and off for another 16 years before the border was opened again.
"For the Spanish, Gibraltar is an affront to their sense of national identity and their sense of sovereignty," Jack Straw, former British foreign secretary, told BBC Radio 4. "It's a bit like having a part of Dover being owned by Spain."
The Brits On The Rock
But what do the Gibraltarians have to say about it?
Well, even that is a tad complicated. Despite its geographical proximity to Spain, a visitor to Gibraltar would be forgiven for feeling much closer to London. People on the peninsula use British currency, pay taxes to British authorities, even boast London's distinctive red phone booths.
In fact, take away a map and the few facets of the scene that may give things away are the Mediterranean sun and omnipresence of apes — which, as Lauren notes, are the only ones to be found on the European continent.
"We've been British for 300 years, and we have a hostile neighbor. People here identify themselves at British, they feel British. The identity of this people is intimately linked to this rock," local newspaper editor Brian Reyes told Lauren in 2014. "Sure, it's just a rock. But it's a place — it's a home. And it's a pretty iconic rock."
In 2002, partly at Straw's urging, Gibraltarians weighed in on whether they preferred Spain to share sovereignty over their territory. In that referendum, about 99 percent voted to remain with the U.K. Only 187 of people voted in favor of joining up with Spain, according to the Guardian.
Still, the roughly 30,000 Gibraltarians, many of whom commute across the border into Spain for work, voted in similarly overwhelming numbers to remain in the EU — about 96 percent in the June 2016 Brexit referendum.
But Picardo warned that Spain should not take this in any way as an opening.
"Spain might like to use Gibraltar as a political pawn, the European Council may have allowed Spain to put this issue in this current draft of the guidelines, but Gibraltar is not going to be a political pawn of Brexit," he told British media Friday.
"Gibraltar is going to be very prosperous and very successful and entirely British before, during and after Brexit."
That's about it, really. A stupid politician went off-script and said some silly things. I don't know what it is about Brexit, but it seems to have brought out the worst in just about everybody.
I came across this blog post today, which I though humorously summarised some of the recent moral outrages:
https://capx.co/england-has-gone-mad/ (https://capx.co/england-has-gone-mad/)
QuoteWe'll all remember where we were when we heard about the 2017 War with Spain, inspired by unlovely Gibraltar, declared by Michael Howard and passionately taken up by the kind of right-wing Tory who lovingly displays decommissioned weaponry on their living-room wall. I was on a long train journey passing through some of England's finest countryside when the news broke. How sad, I thought, that one day this would all be patatas bravas fields and manchego trees. We'd have to learn how to pronounce "chorizo" the right way and to pass a football properly. I worked through the maths – at 43, was I too old for the frontline? I checked my conscience – I'd happily write racist propaganda from home, but would rather avoid having to shoot Andres Iniesta in the face.
Speaking from the Spain side of things (been living there since the end of December, and very active in the ex-pat community), this is actually quite the deal.
Simply put, it's stoking tensions by many who feel that UK'ers in Spain can't have it both ways. "If they chose to leave the EU, then _____"
There is some undercurrent of anti-Brit sentiment for those who move to Spain, while not adopting any Spanish customs (i.e., Brits who move to UK communities, eat the same shit, never learn Spanish, etc etc).
It's totally normal running into "Go back to the UK" posters/protestors.
This is big in Catalonia but bigger in Gibraltar.
I spent quite a bit of time in Spain a long time ago... You could not cross from La Linea to Gibraltar back then and had to "see" Gibraltar from there and Algeciras. The Spaniards were quite passionate about their claim to The Rock...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 05, 2017, 08:02:30 AM
The Spaniards were quite passionate about their claim to The Rock...
They're a passionate people, that's for sure ;)
The irony is that Spain has two enclaves in Morocco that the Moroccans covet.
I personally don't care, but the decision should be down to the people of Gibraltar. And they've chosen 99 to 1 in favour of remaining British.
As far as British citizens in Spain are concerned, that cuts both ways - there are almost 100,000 Spaniards here (I even work with a couple). Yes, there are probably six times that many British people in Spain, but what's fair is fair.
As far as Spaniards being racist about British people, that's hardly a surprise.
Spain doesn't have the economic or military might to challenge the British (the Spanish have 25% unemployment?). Germany and France aren't going to want to deal with this. Also, the Spanish need to be friendly with the British and their millions of pounds spent in tourism there.
The Washington Post had an article on this the other day as well:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/03/brexit-could-give-spain-major-bargaining-power-over-gibraltar/
Quote from: Adam White on April 05, 2017, 08:50:17 AM
The irony is that Spain has two enclaves in Morocco that the Moroccans covet.
I personally don't care, but the decision should be down to the people of Gibraltar. And they've chosen 99 to 1 in favour of remaining British.
As far as British citizens in Spain are concerned, that cuts both ways - there are almost 100,000 Spaniards here (I even work with a couple). Yes, there are probably six times that many British people in Spain, but what's fair is fair.
As far as Spaniards being racist about British people, that's hardly a surprise.
Agree completely...
Quote from: finehoe on April 05, 2017, 09:32:56 AM
The Washington Post had an article on this the other day as well:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/03/brexit-could-give-spain-major-bargaining-power-over-gibraltar/
I read the same article. Basically, UK would have to negotiate a cross border treaty with Spain. Long term it will be like driving to Canada from the US.
The Spaniards have much in common with Britons than they may let on too. There is still some Breton culture up in Galicia.
There are many descendants in Ireland that are based on the wreck of the Spanish Navy and the sailors decided to stay. The singer Enya, her mother is a descendant of a Spanish sailor.
Quote from: FlaBoy on April 05, 2017, 09:31:37 AM
Spain doesn't have the economic or military might to challenge the British (the Spanish have 25% unemployment?). Germany and France aren't going to want to deal with this. Also, the Spanish need to be friendly with the British and their millions of pounds spent in tourism there.
A lot of this sort of stuff is a way to distract the population from economic and domestic problems - both in the UK and Spain. Just like the Argies seem to bring up the Falklands whenever their economy is in the toilet or there is some sort of scandal brewing.
At least Gibraltar has an airport. One of those other UK Overseas posessions, St Helena just got theirs after 30 years of trying and few can use it.
Maybe Britons can holiday there instead of Spain post Brexit.
Quote from: spuwho on April 05, 2017, 11:22:43 AM
At least Gibraltar has an airport. One of those other UK Overseas posessions, St Helena just got theirs after 30 years of trying and few can use it.
Maybe Britons can holiday there instead of Spain post Brexit.
I'd love to go there - and Tristan da Cunha, too.
Quote from: Adam White on April 05, 2017, 11:30:12 AM
Quote from: spuwho on April 05, 2017, 11:22:43 AM
At least Gibraltar has an airport. One of those other UK Overseas posessions, St Helena just got theirs after 30 years of trying and few can use it.
Maybe Britons can holiday there instead of Spain post Brexit.
I'd love to go there - and Tristan da Cunha, too.
BA was trying to start a flight via Gambia (to refuel). As for Tristan, I think its boat only still. Comair has a weekly from Ascension Island.
I agree, I would rather go to an Overseas territory than Gibraltar.
Quote from: spuwho on April 05, 2017, 12:01:19 PM
Quote from: Adam White on April 05, 2017, 11:30:12 AM
Quote from: spuwho on April 05, 2017, 11:22:43 AM
At least Gibraltar has an airport. One of those other UK Overseas posessions, St Helena just got theirs after 30 years of trying and few can use it.
Maybe Britons can holiday there instead of Spain post Brexit.
I'd love to go there - and Tristan da Cunha, too.
BA was trying to start a flight via Gambia (to refuel). As for Tristan, I think its boat only still. Comair has a weekly from Ascension Island.
I agree, I would rather go to an Overseas territory than Gibraltar.
Have you hiked to the rain forest atop Ascension?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 05, 2017, 12:33:11 PM
Quote from: spuwho on April 05, 2017, 12:01:19 PM
Quote from: Adam White on April 05, 2017, 11:30:12 AM
Quote from: spuwho on April 05, 2017, 11:22:43 AM
At least Gibraltar has an airport. One of those other UK Overseas posessions, St Helena just got theirs after 30 years of trying and few can use it.
Maybe Britons can holiday there instead of Spain post Brexit.
I'd love to go there - and Tristan da Cunha, too.
BA was trying to start a flight via Gambia (to refuel). As for Tristan, I think its boat only still. Comair has a weekly from Ascension Island.
I agree, I would rather go to an Overseas territory than Gibraltar.
Have you hiked to the rain forest atop Ascension?
No. I thought Ascension was semi-restricted to military use only.
Quote from: spuwho on April 05, 2017, 12:39:44 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 05, 2017, 12:33:11 PM
Quote from: spuwho on April 05, 2017, 12:01:19 PM
Quote from: Adam White on April 05, 2017, 11:30:12 AM
Quote from: spuwho on April 05, 2017, 11:22:43 AM
At least Gibraltar has an airport. One of those other UK Overseas posessions, St Helena just got theirs after 30 years of trying and few can use it.
Maybe Britons can holiday there instead of Spain post Brexit.
I'd love to go there - and Tristan da Cunha, too.
BA was trying to start a flight via Gambia (to refuel). As for Tristan, I think its boat only still. Comair has a weekly from Ascension Island.
I agree, I would rather go to an Overseas territory than Gibraltar.
Have you hiked to the rain forest atop Ascension?
No. I thought Ascension was semi-restricted to military use only.
It may be... the place reminds of the moon... or Iceland but warmer...
(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/09/da/a7/f4/green-mountain-national.jpg)
(https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.9149610.3069/flat,1000x1000,075,f.jpg)
Looks badass. MUST GO.
Yeah, that is impressive looking.
I've always wanted to visit the Falkland Islands as well. Something about these really remote places appeals to me. I never considered Gibraltar a place I'd like to go, but I have been reconsidering that a bit with all the news coverage this week. I think I'd like to see the view from the top of the rock.
That forest is only at the top of the mountain/island... The rest of the island is mostly barren volcanic cinder...lol
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 05, 2017, 02:42:40 PM
That forest is only at the top of the mountain/island... The rest of the island is mostly barren volcanic cinder...lol
Per
Wikipedia:
To enter Ascension Island, individuals need the Administrator's written permission. There is no permanent residence. A contract of employment is a requirement to stay on the island,[40] though short term visits by tourists are possible with prior approval. The British government has asserted that there is no "right of abode" on Ascension Island.As far as Green Mountain National Park you show in the pictures.....oddly, none of it is indigenous, it is a planned forest.
By 1843 the island was barren with few plants. However, due to the introduction of species by the British, Ascension Island's Green Mountain is now one of the few large-scale planned forests, and is gradually growing with each year. Its highest point is at 859 m.[10] Non-indigenous plants teem there, and the crown of Green Mountain is a lush halo of bamboo. Flanking one side is a large stand of tall Norfolk pine, trees planted by British mariners, which were to have been used as replacement masts for sailing ships. In June 2005 the first National Park on Ascension Island, the Green Mountain National Park, was opened.It seemed to suffer the fate of many of the other islands found by Europeans between 1500-1800. Infestation of rats, followed by the importation of cats, which then destroyed the bird nests. The island was declared feral cat free in 2006. There are a lot of islands in the Pacific that were originally mined for guano in the 1800's. The succeeding generations of ferals that survived were removed just a few years ago like Ascension.
Thanks spuwho... it looked natural enough to me. Interesting!
Saw this today:
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/800-people-stranded-mid-atlantic-060219144.html (https://uk.yahoo.com/news/800-people-stranded-mid-atlantic-060219144.html)
Looks like now is not the time to try to plan that holiday to Ascension Island!
QuoteHundreds of people have been stranded in the mid-Atlantic on Ascension Island after potholes on the runway reportedly caused the partial closure of its US air base.
Unconfirmed reports said that cracks or potholes had appeared and repairs of the runway - a crucial stop-over during the Falklands War - could take weeks, if not months.
The situation has been made worse by a propeller failure on the RMS St Helena, the ageing supply ship that travels between Cape Town and the sister islands of Ascension and St Helena, both more than a thousand miles off Africa.
Lol... provisions will begin to run low quickly...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on April 17, 2017, 07:33:57 PM
Lol... provisions will begin to run low quickly...
Being a military installation, Ascension has a 6 month depot of diesel and aviation fuel.
Also Ascension has a small and little used submarine terminal and plenty of space for a military freighter ship to resupply the island.
So while private air or sea craft may be limited. Military use can proceed as usual.
Yeah... like I said... provisions will begin to run low quickly...
Seems Ascension is not the one freaking out about the runway closing, its the Falklands. Its a key supply leg for the South Atlantic island since Argentina doesnt allow direct flights.
Per MercoNews:
The Falkland Islands government has made further announcements regarding the South Atlantic Airbridge, which has been rerouted because of the temporary closure of Ascension Island runway, but now seems to be back in track to normalizing via alternative airports in West Africa. Ascenson island, in mid Atlantic, is a crucial call point for the long airbridge to the Falklands.
Despite the cancelling of a couple of airbridge flights to the Falklands, as of Wednesday, and for the rest of the week, the situation is expected to be normal, according to FIG and the UK Ministry of Defense, which are providing extensive information both for northbound and southbound flights.
Since the flights will be calling in West Africa, there are some recommendations regarding vaccines.
Following are some of the questions, and answers, regarding the overall rerouting situation.
What is the situation regarding the Ascension Island and Airbridge flights?
Due to essential repairs required to the Ascension Island runway, the Ministry of Defence (MOD) is temporarily rerouting the South Atlantic Airbridge via alternative airports, currently using West Africa.
How long will this situation continue?
The runway requires essential repairs to continue accommodating larger aircraft, such as those used for the South Atlantic Airbridge. It is expected that the re-routing will continue for the foreseeable future.
What will happen in the interim period?
The MOD is working with the Falkland Islands Government to ensure continued flight access to/from the UK for Falkland Islanders, through an alternative hub.
What is happening with the current South Atlantic Airbridge flights?
Whist interim measures are being implemented, the Southbound flight from Brize Norton (BZN) scheduled for 16.04.17 has been cancelled along with the associated return Northbound flight scheduled for 18.04.17*.
However, the Southbound flight from Brize Norton scheduled to depart on Wednesday 19.04.17* is due to arrive at Mount Pleasant on Thursday 20.04.17* at 15:05 hrs*, Stanley time.
The Northbound flight scheduled for Friday 21.04.17* is due to depart at 07:15hrs*, Stanley time (check-in from 02:00hrs*). This flight is scheduled to arrive at Brize Norton at 05:30hrs* on Saturday 22.04.17*. (*) All dates and times correct as of 17.04.17 and subject to change.
Every attempt is being made to accommodate passengers from the cancelled flights. As always, passengers are advised to carry overnight kit in their hand luggage in case of any delays.
Does the rerouted flight take longer to the UK?
The initial leg of the journey from the Falklands (Mount Pleasant) northbound, if via West Africa, is longer than the leg to Ascension, but the onward leg to the UK is shorter. Overall, there is very little difference in overall flight time.
What is the situation for people who live or work on Ascension Island?
The MOD is working with the Foreign Office to put in place measures to support the people who live and work on Ascension Island.
I remember when Britain made a few airborne "deliveries" from Ascension Island to the Falkland Islands in 1982.
Quote from: Adam White on April 20, 2017, 03:29:10 PM
I remember when Britain made a few airborne "deliveries" from Ascension Island to the Falkland Islands in 1982.
Yes, the flight of the 8 Victors to refuel the Vulcan and the other Victors so the Vulcan could drop its only set of bombs in hostility ever is reknown.
If just one Victor had faltered, a different story.
Quote from: spuwho on April 20, 2017, 06:46:11 PM
Quote from: Adam White on April 20, 2017, 03:29:10 PM
I remember when Britain made a few airborne "deliveries" from Ascension Island to the Falkland Islands in 1982.
Yes, the flight of the 8 Victors to refuel the Vulcan and the other Victors so the Vulcan could drop its only set of bombs in hostility ever is reknown.
If just one Victor had faltered, a different story.
Ascension is one of those "strategic rocks " most of the public is unaware of. Ascension has played an important role with NASA and other military operations not quite as public as the Falklands.
When you live on a small island in the middle of nowhere a missed flight or freighter means shortages and possible hardship. Use the last roll of TP... better hope your neighbors are generous... get sick and need MEDEVAC... sorry... runway closed.