ICE's stepped-up enforcement efforts since the election have sent chills through the US agriculture industry. Industry-wide, 16% of workers are undocumented, while undocumented immigrants make up 70% of all fieldworkers — the vast majority of them Mexican.
In New York state, 1,080 farms are at risk of shrinking significantly or failing because of enhanced immigration enforcement in the state.
Intensified enforcement has also exacerbated a labor shortage already plaguing the industry in the state.
"If we don't have the ability to have workers on our farms, farms can't survive," Farm Bureau spokesman Steve Ammerman told Crain's.
http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-ice-immigration-crackdown-arresting-migrant-farmworkers-2017-3
But the immigrants are taking desirable jobs away from legal Americans, right~?
Well, why not just round up the Appalachians those who voted for Trump, and send them out to pick strawberries for 60 hours a week at $2/hour?
That'd sure put a dent in the obesity epidemic!
^Fits with the week's theme of short-term jobs over long-term protection against climate change.
Why not start documenting? As we should have all along... gotta start somewhere. Looks like strawberries are going up in price...
If you're going to edit my posts, please try to do so in a way that doesn't change the meaning. Thanks.
According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average ag farm wage in California is $16.35.
Or about 34k annually.
QuoteToday farm workers don't make anywhere near $16.00 an hour.
In 2008, demographer Rick Mines conducted a survey of 120,000 migrant farm workers in California from indigenous communities in Mexico – Mixtecos, Triquis, Purepechas and others. "One third of the workers earned above the minimum wage, one third reported earning exactly the minimum and one third reported earning below the minimum," he found.
In other words, growers potentially were paying an illegal wage to tens of thousands of farm workers.
http://48hills.org/2015/06/03/farm-workers-in-california-can-barely-survive-in-2015/
THATS why they should be documented. Employers can rob and take advantage of... ILLEGALS. Fix the damn system...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 29, 2017, 03:55:14 PM
Fix the damn system...
On June 27, 2013, the Senate approved S.744, known as the
Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 in a historic 68-to-32 vote. The immigration reform bill was sent to the House, but has not since then been brought to the House floor for debate or an up-or-down vote.
How can it be fixed if House Republicans won't even vote on it?
Quote from: finehoe on March 29, 2017, 04:04:15 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 29, 2017, 03:55:14 PM
Fix the damn system...
On June 27, 2013, the Senate approved S.744, known as the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 in a historic 68-to-32 vote. The immigration reform bill was sent to the House, but has not since then been brought to the House floor for debate or an up-or-down vote.
How can it be fixed if House Republicans won't even vote on it?
Rofl... really?
Quote from: finehoe on March 29, 2017, 03:40:27 PM
QuoteToday farm workers don't make anywhere near $16.00 an hour.
In 2008, demographer Rick Mines conducted a survey of 120,000 migrant farm workers in California from indigenous communities in Mexico – Mixtecos, Triquis, Purepechas and others. "One third of the workers earned above the minimum wage, one third reported earning exactly the minimum and one third reported earning below the minimum," he found.
In other words, growers potentially were paying an illegal wage to tens of thousands of farm workers.
http://48hills.org/2015/06/03/farm-workers-in-california-can-barely-survive-in-2015/
There has been an extensive drought in the central valley for 4 straight years. This has created an excess of labor supply which has forced wages down.
There is a belief that with this years bumper rain and snow event, the ag sector will be recovering. This will increase demand for workers and wage growth will follow.
Quote from: spuwho on March 30, 2017, 12:09:20 PM
This will increase demand for workers and wage growth will follow.
Especially since there'll be fewer workers to go around.
I wonder how many American's will rush in to fill the gap?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 29, 2017, 07:44:50 PM
Quote from: finehoe on March 29, 2017, 04:04:15 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 29, 2017, 03:55:14 PM
Fix the damn system...
On June 27, 2013, the Senate approved S.744, known as the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 in a historic 68-to-32 vote. The immigration reform bill was sent to the House, but has not since then been brought to the House floor for debate or an up-or-down vote.
How can it be fixed if House Republicans won't even vote on it?
Rofl... really?
Nice response... ROFL Really, The fact of the matter was legislation was proposed to do something to "Fix the Damn System" The House refused and continues to refuse to debate the bill hence why President Obama resorted to Executive Orders/Action. So yes ROFL Really.
Again... Rofl... Here is the Senate vote...
https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=113&session=1&vote=00167
You dont suppose a bill to "do something" could be made so unpalatable that you know the other side cannot vote for it... then someone could point and say... "see we tried but they killed it". R-O-F-L
How many dems would have voted for the Obamacare reforms recently proposed?? OMG... they killed reforming the system...
ROFL
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 30, 2017, 02:50:20 PM
You dont suppose a bill to "do something" could be made so unpalatable that you know the other side cannot vote for it... then someone could point and say... "see we tried but they killed it". R-O-F-L
So 'unpalatable' that 25% of the Republicans voted for it.
I think all that floor-rolling has damaged something.
Quote from: finehoe on March 30, 2017, 03:19:10 PM
I think all that floor-rolling has damaged something.
;D
QuoteAccording to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average ag farm wage in California is $16.35.
I find this VERY, VERY hard to believe. Can you post a source? I would highly suspect it includes 'landscapers, landscape architects, forest management or other positions that don't deal with production of food for consumption.
BTW, paying less than minimum wage IS legal in Farming, or at least it has been in the past.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 30, 2017, 04:10:31 PM
QuoteAccording to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average ag farm wage in California is $16.35.
I find this VERY, VERY hard to believe. Can you post a source? I would highly suspect it includes 'landscapers, landscape architects, forest management or other positions that don't deal with production of food for consumption.
BTW, paying less than minimum wage IS legal in Farming, or at least it has been in the past.
www.bls.gov
Quote from: vicupstate on March 30, 2017, 04:10:31 PM
QuoteAccording to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average ag farm wage in California is $16.35.
I find this VERY, VERY hard to believe. Can you post a source? I would highly suspect it includes 'landscapers, landscape architects, forest management or other positions that don't deal with production of food for consumption.
BTW, paying less than minimum wage IS legal in Farming, or at least it has been in the past.
I don't assuming they include overtime wages. My mom still manages a large sod farm in SC and they use a majority of H1B labor on the farm and for installations The migrant season runs from February to September, and most of them are returning workers who's pay ranges from $10/hr for general labor up to $20/hr for operators. Their normal workweek from May to August is between 60-70 hours per week, so do the math. And this is SC pay v/s CA pay.
Quote from: finehoe on March 30, 2017, 03:19:10 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 30, 2017, 02:50:20 PM
You dont suppose a bill to "do something" could be made so unpalatable that you know the other side cannot vote for it... then someone could point and say... "see we tried but they killed it". R-O-F-L
So 'unpalatable' that 25% of the Republicans voted for it.
I think all that floor-rolling has damaged something.
Pretty small number... but it is good to see you picking up where Stephen left off with your penchant for snarky put downs, stereotypes, and name calling. Congrats!
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 30, 2017, 04:45:19 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on March 30, 2017, 04:10:31 PM
QuoteAccording to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average ag farm wage in California is $16.35.
I find this VERY, VERY hard to believe. Can you post a source? I would highly suspect it includes 'landscapers, landscape architects, forest management or other positions that don't deal with production of food for consumption.
BTW, paying less than minimum wage IS legal in Farming, or at least it has been in the past.
I don't assuming they include overtime wages. My mom still manages a large sod farm in SC and they use a majority of H1B labor on the farm and for installations The migrant season runs from February to September, and most of them are returning workers who's pay ranges from $10/hr for general labor up to $20/hr for operators. Their normal workweek from May to August is between 60-70 hours per week, so do the math. And this is SC pay v/s CA pay.
H1B for farm labor? H1B is for "specialty" workers I thought?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 30, 2017, 07:40:05 PM
r... but it is good to see you picking up where Stephen left off with your penchant for snarky put downs, stereotypes, and name calling. Congrats!
ROFL ROFL ROFL
Pot, meet kettle.
Quote from: JHAT76 on March 30, 2017, 08:25:57 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 30, 2017, 04:45:19 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on March 30, 2017, 04:10:31 PM
QuoteAccording to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average ag farm wage in California is $16.35.
I find this VERY, VERY hard to believe. Can you post a source? I would highly suspect it includes 'landscapers, landscape architects, forest management or other positions that don't deal with production of food for consumption.
BTW, paying less than minimum wage IS legal in Farming, or at least it has been in the past.
I don't assuming they include overtime wages. My mom still manages a large sod farm in SC and they use a majority of H1B labor on the farm and for installations The migrant season runs from February to September, and most of them are returning workers who's pay ranges from $10/hr for general labor up to $20/hr for operators. Their normal workweek from May to August is between 60-70 hours per week, so do the math. And this is SC pay v/s CA pay.
H1B for farm labor? H1B is for "specialty" workers I thought?
I'll ask her for the correct terminology when I talk to her tomorrow.
In the mid-90s when I used to work there summers, there wasn't a huge Mexican workforce, it was mostly just locals. I would say that the immigrant workforce didn't really arrive until 2004/2005 when my brother was working summers there. And it's steadily grown since then. I would say that they have close to 150 seasonal workers and keep a full time staff of 30-50 with a guesstimate of about 80% being Mexican or Latin American. And a majority of the seasonal workers are the same ones year after year.
We have a huge population in this country who possess an 19th. Century skill set sitting idle on porches and loitering on street corners and in front of convenience stores. Cut off the transfer payments and bus them to agricultural areas. Unemployment problem solved. Manpower problem solved. It's common sense, folks.
Quote from: DTJAXEYE on March 31, 2017, 02:45:47 AM
We have a huge population in this country who possess an 19th. Century skill set sitting idle on porches and loitering on street corners and in front of convenience stores. Cut off the transfer payments and bus them to agricultural areas. Unemployment problem solved. Manpower problem solved. It's common sense, folks.
Have you ever considered running for Pyongyang City Council?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 30, 2017, 10:29:43 PM
Quote from: JHAT76 on March 30, 2017, 08:25:57 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 30, 2017, 04:45:19 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on March 30, 2017, 04:10:31 PM
QuoteAccording to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average ag farm wage in California is $16.35.
I find this VERY, VERY hard to believe. Can you post a source? I would highly suspect it includes 'landscapers, landscape architects, forest management or other positions that don't deal with production of food for consumption.
BTW, paying less than minimum wage IS legal in Farming, or at least it has been in the past.
I don't assuming they include overtime wages. My mom still manages a large sod farm in SC and they use a majority of H1B labor on the farm and for installations The migrant season runs from February to September, and most of them are returning workers who's pay ranges from $10/hr for general labor up to $20/hr for operators. Their normal workweek from May to August is between 60-70 hours per week, so do the math. And this is SC pay v/s CA pay.
H1B for farm labor? H1B is for "specialty" workers I thought?
I'll ask her for the correct terminology when I talk to her tomorrow.
In the mid-90s when I used to work there summers, there wasn't a huge Mexican workforce, it was mostly just locals. I would say that the immigrant workforce didn't really arrive until 2004/2005 when my brother was working summers there. And it's steadily grown since then. I would say that they have close to 150 seasonal workers and keep a full time staff of 30-50 with a guesstimate of about 80% being Mexican or Latin American. And a majority of the seasonal workers are the same ones year after year.
It is likely the H-2A agricultural visa...
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 30, 2017, 10:29:43 PM
Quote from: JHAT76 on March 30, 2017, 08:25:57 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 30, 2017, 04:45:19 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on March 30, 2017, 04:10:31 PM
QuoteAccording to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average ag farm wage in California is $16.35.
I find this VERY, VERY hard to believe. Can you post a source? I would highly suspect it includes 'landscapers, landscape architects, forest management or other positions that don't deal with production of food for consumption.
BTW, paying less than minimum wage IS legal in Farming, or at least it has been in the past.
I don't assuming they include overtime wages. My mom still manages a large sod farm in SC and they use a majority of H1B labor on the farm and for installations The migrant season runs from February to September, and most of them are returning workers who's pay ranges from $10/hr for general labor up to $20/hr for operators. Their normal workweek from May to August is between 60-70 hours per week, so do the math. And this is SC pay v/s CA pay.
H1B for farm labor? H1B is for "specialty" workers I thought?
I'll ask her for the correct terminology when I talk to her tomorrow.
In the mid-90s when I used to work there summers, there wasn't a huge Mexican workforce, it was mostly just locals. I would say that the immigrant workforce didn't really arrive until 2004/2005 when my brother was working summers there. And it's steadily grown since then. I would say that they have close to 150 seasonal workers and keep a full time staff of 30-50 with a guesstimate of about 80% being Mexican or Latin American. And a majority of the seasonal workers are the same ones year after year.
Would be interesting to find out what % of those seasonal workers are truly documented.
With regard to the worker shortages there are some interesting articles out there regarding pay and who is willing to do the work. In th 1930's many left the Dust Bowl regions for migrant work. These days it seems like a lot of people sit in their Rust Belts towns and dream of a factory that will employ 50,000 people with limited education and complain rather than travel to where the work is.
So what is the plan? If the Gang of 8 immigration bill was so terrible what is the current plan in the works? Build a wall? That isn't much of a solution to a complicated issue.
http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/ (http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-farms-immigration/)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/north-carolina-needed-6500-farm-workers-only-7-americans-stuck-it-out/?utm_term=.5bc22a0116a3 (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/05/15/north-carolina-needed-6500-farm-workers-only-7-americans-stuck-it-out/?utm_term=.5bc22a0116a3)
So I talked to mom today and here's what I've got:
BT is correct, they hire H2A workers for the season.
My #'s are way off, they only brought in 26 this year, which has been about normal. The most she could remember off the top of her head was approximately 50 workers.
The state mandates the minimum wage and hours for H2A workers and they are 10-99 employees so there's no withholdings. $10.62/hr (minimum) & 40 hours/week. Overtime gets paid at time and a half. She said that 12 are paid the minimum, 6 are paid $12, 4 @ $14 & 4 @ $16. She confirmed that these are repeat workers and they do increase their pay yearly at about $1 a year.
All of the immigrant workers are legal. Her company pays about $30k/year combined to: DoL, Consulate of Mexico & the required state licensing and to Amigo Services out of TX which is a staffing service.
On top of that her company is responsible to cover 100% of the costs of: housing, transportation for basic needs, transportation to and from Mexico.
To hire H2A employees, they have to keep the job opening listed for a minimum of 3 months and are REQUIRED to hire any citizen who applies and meets the qualifications (not much considering the work). These workers get the same minimum requirements that the immigrant labor force gets. This farm is in SC and their ad is ran in 3 states - I forgot to ask which 3. She did say that she has hired about a dozen local workers this year, and none has lasted for a month.
Their company has paid for 3 people over the years to become naturalized citizens at approx $50k each. Those 3 are still with the company, work full time in a crew-leader role and are bring home well over $1k per week (in season) after taxes.
They refuse to hire undocumented because of the inherent risks of losing their privileges with the immigrant labor.
So based on that, I wouldn't be shocked that the average of CA workers is $16/hr. And this blows any job stealing rhetoric out of the water: Immigrants DO NOT take any jobs away from Americans, because as I stated, these jobs are required to be given to Americans if they apply.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 31, 2017, 11:37:50 AM
So I talked to mom today and here's what I've got:
BT is correct, they hire H2A workers for the season.
My #'s are way off, they only brought in 26 this year, which has been about normal. The most she could remember off the top of her head was approximately 50 workers.
The state mandates the minimum wage and hours for H2A workers and they are 10-99 employees so there's no withholdings. $10.62/hr (minimum) & 40 hours/week. Overtime gets paid at time and a half. She said that 12 are paid the minimum, 6 are paid $12, 4 @ $14 & 4 @ $16. She confirmed that these are repeat workers and they do increase their pay yearly at about $1 a year.
All of the immigrant workers are legal. Her company pays about $30k/year combined to: DoL, Consulate of Mexico & the required state licensing and to Amigo Services out of TX which is a staffing service.
On top of that her company is responsible to cover 100% of the costs of: housing, transportation for basic needs, transportation to and from Mexico.
To hire H2A employees, they have to keep the job opening listed for a minimum of 3 months and are REQUIRED to hire any citizen who applies and meets the qualifications (not much considering the work). These workers get the same minimum requirements that the immigrant labor force gets. This farm is in SC and their ad is ran in 3 states - I forgot to ask which 3. She did say that she has hired about a dozen local workers this year, and none has lasted for a month.
Their company has paid for 3 people over the years to become naturalized citizens at approx $50k each. Those 3 are still with the company, work full time in a crew-leader role and are bring home well over $1k per week (in season) after taxes.
They refuse to hire undocumented because of the inherent risks of losing their privileges with the immigrant labor.
So based on that, I wouldn't be shocked that the average of CA workers is $16/hr. And this blows any job stealing rhetoric out of the water: Immigrants DO NOT take any jobs away from Americans, because as I stated, these jobs are required to be given to Americans if they apply.
Excellent info. I guess that blows some stereotypes away.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on March 31, 2017, 12:08:36 PM
Wait, it's almost like you're saying that certain politicians offer up bullshit, completely devoid of facts, to exploit lazy, xenophobic thinking for their own political purposes.
You could say that, but not in the way I think you think it means.
I guess my opinion on the subject is that I hear a bunch of hyperbole from both sides and none of it paints a really accurate picture.
No: immigrants aren't 'stealing' jobs from hardworking Americans.
Yes: Companies that rely on LEGAL immigrant labor are absolutely FOR deportation of ILLEGAL immigrants.
This is only one company that I have a personal knowledge of and knew they were above board before even going down this path.
That doesn't mean that Jimmy's Turf Farm isn't hiring all the undocumented laborers they can find, paying them slave wages and refusing to hire anyone that requires a W-2.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 31, 2017, 12:24:47 PM
This is only one company that I have a personal knowledge of and knew they were above board before even going down this path.
That doesn't mean that Jimmy's Turf Farm isn't hiring all the undocumented laborers they can find, paying them slave wages and refusing to hire anyone that requires a W-2.
Exactly. NRW's mom sounds like she does things on the up-and-up, but it doesn't tell us much about businesses who use
undocumented labor.
Seems to me that rather than spending $21.6
billion on an ineffective wall, we'd be better off going after the businesses that hire immigrants here unlawfully. Throw a few executives from companies who hire undocumented workers in jail, and I'd wager the illegal immigrant "crisis" would be solved post-haste.
Quote from: finehoe on March 31, 2017, 01:12:27 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 31, 2017, 12:24:47 PM
This is only one company that I have a personal knowledge of and knew they were above board before even going down this path.
That doesn't mean that Jimmy's Turf Farm isn't hiring all the undocumented laborers they can find, paying them slave wages and refusing to hire anyone that requires a W-2.
Exactly. NRW's mom sounds like she does things on the up-and-up, but it doesn't tell us much about businesses who use undocumented labor.
Seems to me that rather than spending $21.6 billion on an ineffective wall, we'd be better off going after the businesses that hire immigrants here unlawfully. Throw a few executives from companies who hire undocumented workers in jail, and I'd wager the illegal immigrant "crisis" would be solved post-haste.
But an effective $21.6
billion wall would do just that by limiting the source of labor for those companies.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 31, 2017, 01:40:26 PM
But an effective $21.6 billion wall would do just that by limiting the source of labor for those companies.
It'd be a helluva lot cheaper to remove the incentive for people to come here in the first place, which is what would happen if businesses knew they'd be in deep shit if they hired an undocumented worker.
Quote from: finehoe on March 31, 2017, 01:45:50 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 31, 2017, 01:40:26 PM
But an effective $21.6 billion wall would do just that by limiting the source of labor for those companies.
It'd be a helluva lot cheaper to remove the incentive for people to come here in the first place, which is what would happen if businesses knew they'd be in deep shit if they hired an undocumented worker.
And that is not counting future maintenance on a wall. We already do that so well. (yes that was sarcasm)
http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/ (http://www.infrastructurereportcard.org/)
America's Infrastructure Scores a D+
Quote from: finehoe on March 31, 2017, 01:45:50 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 31, 2017, 01:40:26 PM
But an effective $21.6 billion wall would do just that by limiting the source of labor for those companies.
It'd be a helluva lot cheaper to remove the incentive for people to come here in the first place, which is what would happen if businesses knew they'd be in deep shit if they hired an undocumented worker.
I've been saying this for years.
And there you have it. If carpnter and I can agree on something, there's hope for the country after all! :D