sadly this thread was hijacked for the next few pages. The original post is below.
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 11:01:24 AM
Its too lengthy to explain right now, but these bond issues are the real tiger in the tank.
Apparently the rise in income derived from property taxes tied to bond issues that accompanied the housing boom were treated as equity to borrow against across the nation.
Now that the bubble has burst the property tax revenues are naturally plummeting. And by plumetting, I mean that that they are falling like a flaming anvil dropped out of a dirigible in the sky....
If this spreads, its going to be an ouchie.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aB3.wYBu3lDs&refer=news
if you read the article you'll see that this county acted very poorly in their management of debt, the entered into the realm of speculation and did not act on behalf of the public trust, while the situation this county is in is rare it is not unique, that said the majority of publicly issued bonds are not at risk and to try and spread malicious rumors like you are is dangerous and serves little purpose other than to spread fear and mistrust. Nowhere in this article is anything suggested like you are suggesting. You must cease and desist from this kind posting.
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 11:18:46 AM
APVBGuy. Kindly back up one assertion in your screed and stop attacking the posters on this board.
oh great oracle of jax, please forgive me.
I didn't attack any poster I attacked the spreading of inaccurate, made up facts that could be very harmful.
I would hope that an oracle as great as you are would not have to resort to such tactics to force wildly misinformed opinions onto others
If it's so tedious, stop responding. Just a suggestion.
Quote from: stug on October 01, 2008, 02:04:45 PM
If it's so tedious, stop responding. Just a suggestion.
thanks for your most excellent suggestion and in fact many times I do ignore the boorish messages but sometimes the posts just have to be responded to, the comments made are so outlandish that they cannot be allowed to stand unchallenged. It is unfortunate that some posters have a such a low tolerance for dissension. Again thanks for you input and I will try in the future to let the less egregious posts pass without comment
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 02:56:55 PM
Its too lengthy to explain right now, but these bond issues are the real tiger in the tank.
Apparently the rise in income derived from property taxes tied to bond issues that accompanied the housing boom were treated as equity to borrow against across the nation.
Now that the bubble has burst the property tax revenues are naturally plummeting. And by plumetting, I mean that that they are falling like a flaming anvil dropped out of a dirigible in the sky....
once again you are adding 2+2 and coming up with 7, property taxes and bond issues are 2 disconnected issues, they become connected if and only if the bond repayments are to be made directly from property tax income but that is not usually the case. most bond issues like the one you cited have the repayments tied to revenues generated from whatever the bond is issued for, like in this case sewer fees. municipal bonds usually fund capital projects and property taxes usually fund daily operations and only the most foolish of governments ever bond to cover daily normal operating expenses.
that said there could very well be an issue for bond repayments as growth is hindered and the projects bonded for do not generate the expected revenues.
in the case of property taxes problems can be looming because revenues may not meet projections because of defaults. but these are 2 disconnected issues and your sky is falling proclamation is way to early and alarmist
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 03:25:44 PM
Interestingly, (and you might want to spend a moment educating yourself before you respond APVBGuy) there is actually a Wikipedia Article on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_bond
I don't know what wiki says, but I do know what I said about bonding and municipal funding and expeditures is dead on. How many municipal budgets have you ever done? any?
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 03:25:44 PM
Interestingly, (and you might want to spend a moment educating yourself before you respond APVBGuy) there is actually a Wikipedia Article on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_bond
Which doesnt contain anything that supports your argument that:
QuoteApparently the rise in income derived from property taxes tied to bond issues that accompanied the housing boom were treated as equity to borrow against across the nation.
Perhaps I overlooked it when I skimmed the article. Why dont you post the excerpt for us if you are telling the truth?
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 03:34:06 PM
Quote from: apvbguy on October 01, 2008, 03:29:03 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 03:25:44 PM
Interestingly, (and you might want to spend a moment educating yourself before you respond APVBGuy) there is actually a Wikipedia Article on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_bond
I don't know what wiki says, but I do know what I said about bonding and municipal funding and expeditures is dead on. How many municipal budgets have you ever done? any?
Lol. Have you?
Which one? when? What capacity did you serve in?
No one is more accomplished or knowledgeable on any subject than the oracle of Springfield. :D
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 03:34:06 PM
Which one? when? What capacity did you serve in?
sorry, I will not give you specifics but I can say that I have done municipal, school, and county departmental ones.
Now what have you ever done in the municipal budgeting or bonding areas?
trust me, you're way out of your field here
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 03:40:43 PM
Im sorry. I flat out do not believe you.
what you believe is irrelevant, the fact is that once again you've been caught pontificating on a subject you know way too little about. Thanks for playing, I'll be looking to expose your limited expertise on some other subject
:D :D
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 03:38:28 PM
btw. almost all the mainstream economists are already predicting a wave of municipal bond defaults, separately from the problem described above.
that article could be right on target or if could be completely wrong but it doesn't support the claims you've made which were overly alarmist and used disconnected facts to come to a conclusion. After having your methodology exposed you offer things like this in an attempt to back fill and justify your original misinformation
Bonds have defaulted, bonds will default, bonds will always default. They will default more in times of economic distress. This does not mean the world will end. What exactly is your point (other than to fan the flames of hysteria and drama), Stephen?
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 03:57:37 PM
I suppose that you will now claim that your original point was that the property taxes are NOT going to decline despite the value of the deflating real estate market.
please cite where I made that comment, either you are putting words in my mouth or you just are having a comprehension issue.
now to clarify what you are trying to say is that property taxes revenues, not property taxes might decline. the current conditions in the financial markets should have little impact on property tax rates and the conditions in the financial markets might have an effect on property tax revenues, but that is not a function of property taxes issues, it is an issue of the financial markets problems spilling out from wall st to main st. If businesses start to fail and they are unable to meet their property taxes that will certainly impact revenues.
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 04:07:40 PM
So do you still stand by the advice that last january was 'the time to buy', River?
Quote from: RiversideGator on January 30, 2008, 05:40:35 PM
Quote from: stephendare on January 29, 2008, 09:42:17 AM
River,
When even the affluent middleclass gets wiped out of a development due to this predatory banking nonsense, something is wrong.
seriously wrong.
You seem to seriously think that only the poor suffer during recessions.
Stephen: Apparently you didnt read the article very closely. The article explicitly blames this problem on the fact that Shaker Heights is a poor section of Cleveland in which the poor have been taken by lenders. See this excerpt:
Quote"Shaker Heights was the perfect storm: poor folks, unemployed and a desire to get a piece of the American Dream."
And, some middle class and wealthy people, as well as some poor people, have been caught up in the real estate downturn. This is just part of the business cycle. Periodically real estate slumps occur and you have to hang on by your fingernails if you are on the margin. But, real estate always comes back. And, I wouldnt say that the middle class is being "wiped out". This sort of hyperbole is sort of a Stephen Dare hallmark but it really makes your arguments much less persuasive. BTW, there are some trememdous deals out there nowdays. If people are looking to buy, this is the time.
Yes. In Jacksonville at least. I missed out on some tremendous opportunities at the time because I was not liquid enough and could not get financing. When the next real estate downturn happens, I will be ready.
Is that when you plan on making your first purchase?
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 04:12:36 PM
Quote from: apvbguy on October 01, 2008, 04:09:37 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 03:57:37 PM
I suppose that you will now claim that your original point was that the property taxes are NOT going to decline despite the value of the deflating real estate market.
please cite where I made that comment, either you are putting words in my mouth or you just are having a comprehension issue.
now to clarify what you are trying to say is that property taxes revenues, not property taxes might decline. the current conditions in the financial markets should have little impact on property tax rates and the conditions in the financial markets might have an effect on property tax revenues, but that is not a function of property taxes issues, it is an issue of the financial markets problems spilling out from wall st to main st. If businesses start to fail and they are unable to meet their property taxes that will certainly impact revenues.
Mmmm. I see. So now you are backpedalling from your original statement. Awesome.
So what exactly do you disagree with from the original post and where is your supporting evidence to back up your opinion.
You were very clear about stating your points, I don't understand why you arent able to back them up.
back peddling? I never stated what you claimed I did, now stop being so obtuse, you've been exposed, say your mea culpas and move on
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 04:46:50 PM
John and I sold the majority of our property in Springfield in June/July 06.
We still have some property but I feel like we made a few great decisions actually.
I don't doubt that I will probably pick up a bit over the next two years. Where is problematic.
Why do you ask?
The properties must have been in the name of a corporation or someone else then.
BTW, who is "John"?
I was following this situation for about the last two years since I was trading in and out of the stock of Syncora (SCA) until a month or two ago. This has nothing to do with the current credit issue, none, zero, zip, nada, zilch, which judging by the title of this thread is what Stephen was aiming at here.
This issue was caused by uninformed public officials who did not understand what they were getting into from the beginning.
Wow
I can't understand why everyone on this site thinks apvbguy is idiot.
He is totally right that the economy is doing great!.
From what I have heard he is a nineteen your old with a 210 IQ.
He seems to know about anything that is posted on this site.
WE should just ask him the answer to our every question, hey apvbguy,
why if your so smart do you argue with so many people who you think are wrong.
This post is about something that has to with the adult world.
When you grow up and become an adult then maybe you will understand something about bond defaults.
BTW If riverside gator agrees with you, you are doomed.
Hey river, has that real estate market?
Quote from: whitey on October 01, 2008, 06:41:28 PM
I was following this situation for about the last two years since I was trading in and out of the stock of Syncora (SCA) until a month or two ago. This has nothing to do with the current credit issue, none, zero, zip, nada, zilch, which judging by the title of this thread is what Stephen was aiming at here.
This issue was caused by uninformed public officials who did not understand what they were getting into from the beginning.
that's what prompted my 2+2+7 comment he is taking 2 disconnected issues to come to a bastardised conclusion.
Please don't introduce the facts surrounding the issue because our oracle has already made up his own set of facts and come to his conclusions.
Quote from: jaxhater on October 01, 2008, 07:21:11 PM
Wow
I can't understand why everyone on this site thinks apvbguy is idiot.
He is totally right that the economy is doing great!.
From what I have heard he is a nineteen your old with a 210 IQ.
He seems to know about anything that is posted on this site.
WE should just ask him the answer to our every question, hey apvbguy,
why if your so smart do you argue with so many people who you think are wrong.
This post is about something that has to with the adult world.
When you grow up and become an adult then maybe you will understand something about bond defaults.
BTW If riverside gator agrees with you, you are doomed.
Hey river, has that real estate market?
Are you attempting to make a coherent argument?
Quote from: RiversideGator on October 01, 2008, 07:27:15 PM
Quote from: jaxhater on October 01, 2008, 07:21:11 PM
Wow
I can't understand why everyone on this site thinks apvbguy is idiot.
He is totally right that the economy is doing great!.
From what I have heard he is a nineteen your old with a 210 IQ.
He seems to know about anything that is posted on this site.
WE should just ask him the answer to our every question, hey apvbguy,
why if your so smart do you argue with so many people who you think are wrong.
This post is about something that has to with the adult world.
When you grow up and become an adult then maybe you will understand something about bond defaults.
BTW If riverside gator agrees with you, you are doomed.
Hey river, has that real estate market?
Are you attempting to make a coherent argument?
there's an old saying about fighting with a pig, you both roll around in the mud and the pig really enjoys it, in other words don't bother with the trolls
So what does the article tell you jaxhater?
I really don't understand how you make the connection from this particular bond issue which has been an ongoing for the last 3 or so years with whats happening now in the credit markets.
QuoteI asked steven to post this article so I take it personal.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
QuoteYou two rightwing nuts are getting what you deserve.
I take great pleasure in seeing nazi scum like you going down in flames.
Waiting for the civility cavalry to come charging??
Vote Mccain -Palin.
Hey good ole boys on here, soon enough you will have what you been praying for.
WWW3 and depression all at once.
May your God have mercy on your souls
Quote from: jaxhater on October 01, 2008, 07:41:36 PM
I asked steven to post this article so I take it personal.
You two rightwing nuts are getting what you deserve.
I take great pleasure in seeing nazi scum like you going down in flames.
Apvbguy, your days are numbered on this site, so I quess the gamers are going have to put up with you again
River is only on here for comic relief.
I can't wait till 09...........Vote Mccain-Palin.
:D :D
Take your medicine now. ;)
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 10:45:48 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on October 01, 2008, 06:21:35 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 04:46:50 PM
John and I sold the majority of our property in Springfield in June/July 06.
We still have some property but I feel like we made a few great decisions actually.
I don't doubt that I will probably pick up a bit over the next two years. Where is problematic.
Why do you ask?
The properties must have been in the name of a corporation or someone else then.
BTW, who is "John"?
the answer, River, is um....nunya.
Just wondering. I mean you brought the properties and John up. I just cant seem to find any record of property ownership ever. ???
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 10:55:03 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 01, 2008, 06:41:28 PM
I was following this situation for about the last two years since I was trading in and out of the stock of Syncora (SCA) until a month or two ago. This has nothing to do with the current credit issue, none, zero, zip, nada, zilch, which judging by the title of this thread is what Stephen was aiming at here.
This issue was caused by uninformed public officials who did not understand what they were getting into from the beginning.
Thanks for the post whitey.
No I am not trying to connect the municipal bonds issue with the current crisis.
Its a seperate and more serious thing.
It would be very cool to hear your input into the subject since you worked in the field.
I haven't "worked in field" I simply traded in and out of the stock of one of the insurers involved. While I was trading the stock I read several articles about this ongoing issue, like anyone else would who had their money tied up in the company.
So what was your point of posting this article, what were you trying to bring to light?
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 11:26:49 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on October 01, 2008, 11:22:55 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 10:45:48 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on October 01, 2008, 06:21:35 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 01, 2008, 04:46:50 PM
John and I sold the majority of our property in Springfield in June/July 06.
We still have some property but I feel like we made a few great decisions actually.
I don't doubt that I will probably pick up a bit over the next two years. Where is problematic.
Why do you ask?
The properties must have been in the name of a corporation or someone else then.
BTW, who is "John"?
the answer, River, is um....nunya.
Just wondering. I mean you brought the properties and John up. I just cant seem to find any record of property ownership ever. ???
good. stop prying. at this point your mania with me is getting weird.
Good one. :D
The Jefferson County issue is not a regular municipal bond default.
This is an example of extreme stupidity and is not a good barometer of the municipal bond market as a whole. You can find a decent amount of info on the history of the events at AL.com
Wow! wasn't that great insight on all these goverments that they would never have any negative cycles like the rest of the economy. This is only happens in government. Any time they face a shortfall suprise suprise they raise taxes. When they economy improves there is no talk of tax reductions. I'm sure you will spin this by saying that I never stated that there wouldn't be a decrease in cities revenues. JEA Another goverment agency ripping us off with rate increases every few months.
Quote from: whitey on October 02, 2008, 12:42:11 AM
The Jefferson County issue is not a regular municipal bond default.
This is an example of extreme stupidity and is not a good barometer of the municipal bond market as a whole. You can find a decent amount of info on the history of the events at AL.com
As someone who has lived in Jefferson County, AL, I can honestly state that they are one of the most ineptly run county governments in the United States. They are not representative of county governments nationwide. This is not to say that no municipal governments will default but this is not the canary in the coal mine that Stephen imagines.
QuoteAvoid Harmful Tax Hikes
Based on statements made during the campaign and since, President Obama will propose to increase taxes on those making over $250,000 by raising the top two income tax rates from 33 percent and 35 percent to 36 percent and 39.6 percent. He is also expected to propose raising tax rates on capital gains and dividends.
In addition, he is also expected to propose a punitive new death tax structure. Under current law, the death tax is abolished in 2010 but then restored to include a minimal exemption amount and a 55 percent tax rate in 2011.
Every year the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) threatens taxpayers with a massive tax hike and, so far, every year Congress has prevented that tax hike. President Obama is expected to propose either that a significant portion of that tax hike take effect or that taxes be raised on other high income taxpayers in lieu of the AMT hike.
Higher tax rates discourage work, investment, saving, entrepreneurial activity, and the taking of economic risks. Obama's likely proposals promise a slower economy, lower wages, and diminished economic competitiveness. Though he may propose that these tax hikes not take effect until 2011 (the same time the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts expire), the fact is the threat of these higher taxes is already depressing economic activity in the middle of the recession. For example, businesses buy new equipment for the earnings they will generate in the future, and investors and savers make decisions today to earn returns in the future. Facing higher future taxes, businesses, investors, and savers are reducing their activities today.
President Obama supports some forms of tax relief, as he showed when he proposed and signed into law the Making Work Pay credit as part of the stimulus package.[12] However, the $7.70 per week per worker tax savings is nearly empty of incentive effects and so will have almost no consequence for economic growth. Worse, even the benefit of lower taxes will be more than wiped out as workers suffer a relative loss of income due to the weakened economy if President Obama pursues tax-raising policies.
President Obama and the nation would be better served by disavowing tax hikes.[13] Instead, he can help achieve his own goal of creating 3.5 million new jobs by cutting tax rates.[14] A plan formulated by Senator Jim DeMint (Râ€"SC) and The Heritage Foundation would create nearly 500,000 jobs this year, 1.3 million next year, and 7.5 million by 2013 by eschewing tax increases while cutting tax rates on individuals and businesses further.[15]
Do Not Raise Taxes on Investment
An increase in taxes on capital gains and dividends means that new investments will be discouraged because the final return on an investment will be reduced by higher taxes. Lower taxes on capital are vital to economic growth, because they reduce the cost of investment. With lower investment costs, new investment activity that would not be undertaken otherwise is now profitable and will be started. These additional investments boost the capital stock of the United States, which will generate economic growth in the short-term and the future.
Permanently extending the tax cuts on capital gains and dividend income permanently reduces the cost of capital to business. Real, non-residential fixed investment responds positively, climbing an average of nearly $9 billion annually between 2011 and 2016. The economy's stock of productive capital is bolstered as a result that increases GDP.
Costs of Higher Taxes
Beyond tax increases on investment, President Obama will likely propose increasing tax rates on income generally. For example, if the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts expire, an average of 709,000 fewer jobs will be created from 2011 to 2016. Real personal income will be reduced by an average of $200 billion each year due to slower economic growth and higher taxes.[16]
If all of the tax cuts enacted during the Bush Administration expire, families would see a tax increase of $2,000 per year on average and an additional loss of $1,800 per year due to slower economic growth.[17] The average job growth for each congressional district would be reduced by over 2,000 jobs. With weaker job growth, the labor market will not be as tight, which means that wages will not increase as fast.
If President Obama increased only taxes on capital gains and dividends, there would be 270,000 fewer job opportunities in 2011, and personal income would fall by $113 billion the same year.
Making Bad Policies Worse
President Obama has an opportunity to bring responsible budgeting back to Washington. To this end, the Administration should ensure the out-of-control spending in the stimulus package is not made permanent, address the looming tsunami of entitlement spending, and abandon its harmful plans to raise taxes. In addition, Obama should not shortchange the efforts to stabilize Iraq and Afghanistan in the name of economic "stimulus." Overall, the President must ensure that his budget proposal protects America's security abroad and economic security at home.
Full artice: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Budget/wm2309.cfm
QuoteIt's no accident that Coors is the right beer in America
Coors beer is owned by the Coors family; a powerful, wealthy family that funnels the money it gets into hundreds of ultraright wing movements from neo-Nazi groups to anti-environmental think tanks. Founded by Adolph Coors, the Coors empire is a very influential force in the U.S. government. All of the information here has been well documented by civil rights and environmental groups and also in a heavily footnoted book, The Coors Connection.
The Coors family has always had strong ties to neo-Nazis. Adolph Coors allowed KKK meetings and cross-burnings on brewery property in Colorado. In 1984, Bill Coors fought against passage of the Civil Rights Act, telling an audience of black businessmen that blacks don't succeed because they "lack intellectual capacity." After encouraging them to go back to Africa, he said that one of the best things slave-drivers did to American blacks "was to drag your ancestors over here in chains" because blacks in America have greater opportunity than those in Africa. Joe Coors is a major contributor to the Moral Majority, which has called for the imprisonment of gay persons with AIDS. The Coors family funds a right-wing sector of Christian fundamentalism, which seeks to replace democratic pluralism with so-called "traditional family values" that is, an authoritarian, gender-based social order. They support groups that say homosexuals are an abomination and AIDS is God's judgment on sinners. They have supported Reverend Sun Myung Moon and Christian Reconstructionists, both of whom have called for the abolition of U.S. democracy and the establishment of a theocratic state ( . . . one nation under God, or else).
Coors family members have sat on boards of groups with people like a former Indiana KKK leader, apartheid supporters and ultraright Christian Reconstructionists calling for the execution of homosexuals, adulterers and blasphemers.
Coors is fiercely anti-labor, having broken 19 unions in 20 years and having blocked OSHA inspectors from investigating workplace hazards which led to the death of Coors employees. Coors supported the National Right to Work Committee, an anti-worker group out to destroy unions.
Coors has supported terrorist activity in many foreign countries, including the Contras in Nicaragua, who have ambushed and killed civilians, murdered teachers and medical workers and destroyed rural schools and medical centers in order to help the CIA take over their government.
Coors is one of the largest dumpers of hazardous waste in Colorado. They’ve been cited many times for water pollution and have been caught covering up known pollution including contamination of multiple underground springs where toxic chemical solvents contributed to irregular heartbeat, unconsciousness, pulmonary edema and death.
Joe Coors was one of a small group of people with ready access to Presidents Reagan and Bush. Joe and his brother Bill both belonged to a since-exposed secret all-male club called Bohemian Grove that Reagan, Bush and other ruling class figures such as the Secretary of Defense and mass media executives (but no reporters) would attend. Coors also funded the Parental Music Resource Center, a pro-censorship group with strong ties to the religious right. The PMRC was led by Al Gore’s wife.
Joe Coors started the Heritage Foundation, a right-wing think tank seeking to abolish civil rights laws, minimum wage laws, environmental laws, affirmative action, rights for the handicapped and arms control. He chose a neo-Nazi author of an Aryan supremacy book as co-editor of their publication, "Policy Review." They have sponsored forums for pro-Nazi groups and have funded the work of a convicted Nazi collaborator.
In the summer of 1996, the Heritage Foundation did a huge mailing to voters telling them to support Republican Senator Bob Dole for President. In the letter, Dole promised to abolish the federal departments of education, housing, transportation and energy. Right in line with libertarian rhetoric, they would have government off of corporate America’s back and no social safety net for the people.
When Coors commercials used to brag that they are the "right beer now," they weren’t kidding. Coors also owns Zima, Killian's Irish Red and Masters Beer.
Sources:
# The Coors Connection -- How Coors Family Philanthropy Undermines Democratic Pluralism by Russ Bellant (1991; 154 pgs; well-documented with 287 footnotes; published by South End Press
-A lot of the info above was drawn from 3 different boycott factsheets from AFL-CIO, Pledge of Resistance and Student Environmental Action Coalition, which were largely sourced from the above book.
-The reference to Bohemian Grove is from a book from Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting (FAIR), a media watch-dog group that explains about the formerly secret, all-male club that the executives of Time-Warner attend, amongst others. A reporter from People magazine (owned by Time-Warner) snuck in once before getting kicked out. He tried to uncover the story, but before it went to print, it was suppressed. The reporter's story is available from FAIR. The book is called Adventures In Medialand.
-The reference to the Parent's Music Resource Center (PMRC) and Tipper Gore's involvement can be confirmed in the speeches of former Dead Kennedy's leader and political activist, Jello Biafra on his spoken word album, No More Cocoons. His group was bankrupted by the PMRC and he is the founder of the No More Censorship Fund.
-The reference to Dole's campaign is from a mailing that was done on Heritage Foundation letterhead supporting Dole for president.
-Explanations of what some of the various foundations that Coors funds can be found, besides in the Coors Connection book, in the Greenpeace Guide to Anti-Environmental Groups.
http://www.corporations.org/coors/article.html
No doubt... you did it without even a shred of evidence. How convincing! The actual topic of this thread is the crisis surrounding bond failure.
Yes, disgusting that anyone would want to slow the erosion of economic liberty by a bloated, self-serving federal bureaucracy.
Quote from: Midway on March 04, 2009, 07:11:51 PM
QuoteIt's no accident that Coors is the right beer in America
Coors beer is owned by the Coors family; a powerful, wealthy family that funnels the money it gets into hundreds of ultraright wing movements from neo-Nazi groups to anti-environmental think tanks. Founded by Adolph Coors, the Coors empire is a very influential force in the U.S. government. All of the information here has been well documented by civil rights and environmental groups and also in a heavily footnoted book, The Coors Connection.
The Coors family has always had strong ties to neo-Nazis. Adolph Coors allowed KKK meetings and cross-burnings on brewery property in Colorado. In 1984, Bill Coors fought against passage of the Civil Rights Act, telling an audience of black businessmen that blacks don't succeed because they "lack intellectual capacity." After encouraging them to go back to Africa, he said that one of the best things slave-drivers did to American blacks "was to drag your ancestors over here in chains" because blacks in America have greater opportunity than those in Africa. Joe Coors is a major contributor to the Moral Majority, which has called for the imprisonment of gay persons with AIDS. The Coors family funds a right-wing sector of Christian fundamentalism, which seeks to replace democratic pluralism with so-called "traditional family values" that is, an authoritarian, gender-based social order. They support groups that say homosexuals are an abomination and AIDS is God's judgment on sinners. They have supported Reverend Sun Myung Moon and Christian Reconstructionists, both of whom have called for the abolition of U.S. democracy and the establishment of a theocratic state ( . . . one nation under God, or else).
Coors family members have sat on boards of groups with people like a former Indiana KKK leader, apartheid supporters and ultraright Christian Reconstructionists calling for the execution of homosexuals, adulterers and blasphemers.
Coors is fiercely anti-labor, having broken 19 unions in 20 years and having blocked OSHA inspectors from investigating workplace hazards which led to the death of Coors employees. Coors supported the National Right to Work Committee, an anti-worker group out to destroy unions.
Coors has supported terrorist activity in many foreign countries, including the Contras in Nicaragua, who have ambushed and killed civilians, murdered teachers and medical workers and destroyed rural schools and medical centers in order to help the CIA take over their government.
Coors is one of the largest dumpers of hazardous waste in Colorado. They’ve been cited many times for water pollution and have been caught covering up known pollution including contamination of multiple underground springs where toxic chemical solvents contributed to irregular heartbeat, unconsciousness, pulmonary edema and death.
Joe Coors was one of a small group of people with ready access to Presidents Reagan and Bush. Joe and his brother Bill both belonged to a since-exposed secret all-male club called Bohemian Grove that Reagan, Bush and other ruling class figures such as the Secretary of Defense and mass media executives (but no reporters) would attend. Coors also funded the Parental Music Resource Center, a pro-censorship group with strong ties to the religious right. The PMRC was led by Al Gore’s wife.
Joe Coors started the Heritage Foundation, a right-wing think tank seeking to abolish civil rights laws, minimum wage laws, environmental laws, affirmative action, rights for the handicapped and arms control. He chose a neo-Nazi author of an Aryan supremacy book as co-editor of their publication, "Policy Review." They have sponsored forums for pro-Nazi groups and have funded the work of a convicted Nazi collaborator.
In the summer of 1996, the Heritage Foundation did a huge mailing to voters telling them to support Republican Senator Bob Dole for President. In the letter, Dole promised to abolish the federal departments of education, housing, transportation and energy. Right in line with libertarian rhetoric, they would have government off of corporate America’s back and no social safety net for the people.
When Coors commercials used to brag that they are the "right beer now," they weren’t kidding. Coors also owns Zima, Killian's Irish Red and Masters Beer.
Sources:
# The Coors Connection -- How Coors Family Philanthropy Undermines Democratic Pluralism by Russ Bellant (1991; 154 pgs; well-documented with 287 footnotes; published by South End Press
-A lot of the info above was drawn from 3 different boycott factsheets from AFL-CIO, Pledge of Resistance and Student Environmental Action Coalition, which were largely sourced from the above book.
-The reference to Bohemian Grove is from a book from Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting (FAIR), a media watch-dog group that explains about the formerly secret, all-male club that the executives of Time-Warner attend, amongst others. A reporter from People magazine (owned by Time-Warner) snuck in once before getting kicked out. He tried to uncover the story, but before it went to print, it was suppressed. The reporter's story is available from FAIR. The book is called Adventures In Medialand.
-The reference to the Parent's Music Resource Center (PMRC) and Tipper Gore's involvement can be confirmed in the speeches of former Dead Kennedy's leader and political activist, Jello Biafra on his spoken word album, No More Cocoons. His group was bankrupted by the PMRC and he is the founder of the No More Censorship Fund.
-The reference to Dole's campaign is from a mailing that was done on Heritage Foundation letterhead supporting Dole for president.
-Explanations of what some of the various foundations that Coors funds can be found, besides in the Coors Connection book, in the Greenpeace Guide to Anti-Environmental Groups.
http://www.corporations.org/coors/article.html
http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/coors.asp
:D :D Like I thought civil... :D :D Midway usually does not get duped so easily. The only factual part of the article is...
QuoteHeritage is primarily funded through donations from private individuals and charitable foundations. Businessman Joseph Coors contributed the first $250,000 to start The Heritage Foundation in 1973
QuoteThe Heritage Foundation is an American conservative-leaning think tank based in Washington, D.C.
The foundation took a leading role in the conservative movement during the presidency of Ronald Reagan, whose policies drew significantly from Heritage's policy study Mandate for Leadership.[1] Heritage has since continued to have a significant influence in U.S. public policy making, and is widely considered to be one of the most influential research organizations in the United States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Foundation
This is classic example of the left's use of ad hominem attacks to discredit anyone in ideological opposition. Why bother refuting the arguments advance by Heritage Foundation, when one can simply claim "thay are financed by neo-nazis"? Just as "all global warming skeptics are in the pay of Exxon Mobil". One would have to be a poor student of history to not recognize the enormous divide between National Socialism and the neo-liberalism espoused by Heritage.
Like the article says... the right wing and neo nazi are not the same thing.
And it would be "as the article says" not "like the article says", and "as I thought", not "like I thought".
You are riversidegator junior with bad grammar.
Quote from: Midway on March 05, 2009, 09:46:12 PM
And it would be "as the article says" not "like the article says", and "as I thought", not "like I thought".
You are riversidegator junior with bad grammar.
Ooooh the grammar police!!
Quote from: stephendare on March 05, 2009, 09:56:32 AM
you mean that right wing and "nazi" arent the same thing.
Neo Nazi means nazi like.
But it is imaterial to the discussion which is about the bond failures.
Neo-nazi only means what the individuals talk about. Very few understand that the national socilast party was originaly not percieved as right wing Many of FdR staff admired attributes of the nazi party. We are talking about the government taking a stake in the manufacturing sector, the banking sector, mandatory health care, and numerous other issues. The basic problem is that fascism has been confused with Nazism, and anti semitism. Though I think that the whole anti -semitism on the left is being embraced as anti zionism.
Quote from: civil42806 on March 05, 2009, 10:07:31 PM
Quote from: Midway on March 05, 2009, 09:46:12 PM
And it would be "as the article says" not "like the article says", and "as I thought", not "like I thought".
You are riversidegator junior with bad grammar.
Ooooh the grammar police!!
Pardon me for interrupting your orgy of illiteracy.....Now back to the fun....
Quoteorgy of illiteracy
Stop with the grammar morality. Consenting nouns, verbs, adverbs, and punctuation marks should be able to cavort about as they like. They are hurting no one... :D ::)
So you oppose government regulation of grammatical morality?
The US is now under watch by Moody's to possibly loose its AAA credit rating. As times get better, the smart money is becoming less risk averse and moving away from US bonds. The 10yr note hit 3.56% today which is around 40% higher than it was selling for just two months ago. With more loose money, tax cuts, and credit worthiness, it is a hard sell to think that the US will not have to pay significantly more for their debt. Probably a third to half of municipal bonds are basically ticking time bombs and I have my doubts that all of those will be bailed out by cash strapped states or a national government that is just bleeding cash (and having to may more for it too).
PS: I don't think the US is any immediate danger of loosing its AAA credit rating right now, but two more years of lackluster growth and high debt could undermine the AAA status and cause us to finally loose it.
To say that we are now, or were in 2008, on the verge of a municipal crisis due to declining property values, and hence, declining property tax revenues, is to over simplify and largely misunderstand municipal bonds in the first place.
The initial poster was correct. Less than half of all municipal bond issues are General Obligation bonds. G.O. bonds are backed by the taxing power of a municipality and historically incredibly safe. They are safe because a) if you don't pay your property taxes, the state will make your life miserable, and b) most come with the promise of assessing additional taxes on the community or placing a larger lien for debt service on gross tax revenues if the municipality can't service the debt. I will gladly offer a source for this (the S&P Annual Municipal Bond guide), but it is common knowledge to almost anyone in the securities industry.
The remaining 50-55% of municipal bonds are backed by revenue sources besides property taxes - usually things tied to sustenance of life like power, water and sewage. If you combine these "traditional" revenue bonds with the above mentioned General Obligation (tax backed bonds) the historical default rate is 0.20-.25% (Fitch's annual study of Municipal Defaults). The number is even lower for the property tax backed bonds on their own. People talk about the Orange County crisis of the 1990's as the benchmark for municipal debt gone wrong, but holders of those dreaded tax backed bonds came out of it receiving 100% of their principal back plus interest. When California was handing out IOU's for almost every expense they had, they were still sending out interest payments to bondholders. Additionally, many of these bonds are also insured (albeit by insurers who are in rough shape), and most likely implicitly backed by the US Government in the event of a muni bond pandemic. As a backstop, if Big Ben was ok with absorbing nearly 2 trillion dollars of MBS's, I'm sure there is room on the Fed balance sheet for another couple hundred billion dollars worth of distressed debt from the 3 trillion dollar muni market.
If you look at the Case-Shiller home price index, we've had some significant corrections in the housing market over the last 100 years, but we haven't had sweeping defaults in the municipal bond markets as a result.
Municipal bonds like Industrial Revenue Bonds and Non Essential Public use bonds are and have been exponentially more likely to default (literally > 50x more likely according to the Fitch's studies) than the stereotypical property tax backed bonds that the original post makes mention of, but that's more a function of a poorly planned individual project here or there than some sweeping epidemic.
We might see defaults in muni bonds go up a couple of percentage points due to specific types of bonds issued by specific states having problems, but I completely agree with the original poster that the sky has never been falling, and that there are too many backstops and too much diversification in the market to keep it from happening, and that the original post was a tad sensational.
Wow, Great post Kevin! I think you are right on the money.
I do however think Stephen's post does raise good concern regarding the solvency of many of the municipal bonds out there and furthermore, the solvency of future debt obligations (worker pensions, retirement, future needs) that many of these municipalities do have. At the very least, it seems that more and more municipal bonds will indeed be forced into some degree of default. The consequences will ultimately affect everyone by forcing bonds rates higher and thus increasing tax rates/ user rates on citizens and further reducing the amount of future projects that can be bonded.
In regards to the Fed's ability to purchase muni bonds, I agree with you. Whether it be in the form of QE3 or 4 or so on, I can definitely see it happening to some degree eventually. However, for now, it is the US government that has picked up the tab in bailing out struggling states ($26 billion in August). I think we will definitely see more and similar moves by government before we see the Fed getting involved. If that scenario occurs (continues really), then I think we will begin to see bond vigilantes begin target US treasuries to a degree that not even the Fed can buy enough to keep rates from going up several basis points....and that is what I fear could eventually drag us into another recession.
Lastly, in regards to these bonds being insured, I think you said it best by saying insurers are in rough shape. As we saw from the last recession, I have a hard time believing many counter-party investors will actually make good on their CDS'....leaving the Fed to come and backstop it anyways.
So, yes, I agree completely that the sky is not falling, but I think this problem is enough to cause on-going concern that will stifle future growth and possibly lead to another downturn in which the US cannot simply monetize and sweep under the rug.
That testimony literally has nothing to do with a default crisis with municipal bonds, never mind the fact that it is dated by 2 and a half years, nor does it prove that municipal bonds were ever in a meltdown stage. It's a super specific testimony on a very, very small slice of the municipal market, auction rate securities.
At their absolute peak, ARS's made up around 4-6% of the total municipal bond universe. Since this (again, severely dated) testimony, brokers and investment banks have taken about 65% of the bonds off the table. So really, you are looking at around 30-50 billion in outstanding ARS securities, which is a mere drop in the bucket and a minor headache for those stuck holding them more than any major financial catastrophe. These securities haven't "defaulted" at all, rather the auction system that allowed an investor (usually institutional due to the high price tag) to transfer the bond to another investor. When the credit market dried up, the buyers stopped showing up to these auctions and some investors got stuck with them longer than they wanted.
This mechanism, again, is contained and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with collection of property taxes.
Quote from: chipwich on December 16, 2010, 01:15:58 AM
Wow, Great post Kevin! I think you are right on the money.
I do however think Stephen's post does raise good concern regarding the solvency of many of the municipal bonds out there and furthermore, the solvency of future debt obligations (worker pensions, retirement, future needs) that many of these municipalities do have. At the very least, it seems that more and more municipal bonds will indeed be forced into some degree of default. The consequences will ultimately affect everyone by forcing bonds rates higher and thus increasing tax rates/ user rates on citizens and further reducing the amount of future projects that can be bonded.
In regards to the Fed's ability to purchase muni bonds, I agree with you. Whether it be in the form of QE3 or 4 or so on, I can definitely see it happening to some degree eventually. However, for now, it is the US government that has picked up the tab in bailing out struggling states ($26 billion in August). I think we will definitely see more and similar moves by government before we see the Fed getting involved. If that scenario occurs (continues really), then I think we will begin to see bond vigilantes begin target US treasuries to a degree that not even the Fed can buy enough to keep rates from going up several basis points....and that is what I fear could eventually drag us into another recession.
Lastly, in regards to these bonds being insured, I think you said it best by saying insurers are in rough shape. As we saw from the last recession, I have a hard time believing many counter-party investors will actually make good on their CDS'....leaving the Fed to come and backstop it anyways.
So, yes, I agree completely that the sky is not falling, but I think this problem is enough to cause on-going concern that will stifle future growth and possibly lead to another downturn in which the US cannot simply monetize and sweep under the rug.
I would agree with you on most of this as well, thought I don't know who Kevin is :).
Bondholders are paid as close to first as the specific bond allows. There is such a diverse collateral system for municipal bonds (property taxes, "sin taxes", revenue from essential things like power and water, revenue from non essential things like airports and hospitals), and all 50 states issue their own unique bonds, that no one thing or problem is going to bring down the market, barring a complete collapse of the US economy.
State's tax receipts were up 3.9% from Q3 2009 to Q3 2010, which is a good sign for bondholders.
I completely agree that borrowing costs are going to go up for municipalities, particularly in states like California, Illinois, New York and New Jersey with huge CDS spreads and bond prices that have suffered, but I think the more likely outcome to this is that states are going to have to make some unpopular decisions and get their budgets under control, because defaulting on their bonds is historically always the very last resort because debt financing is (unfortunately) the oxygen that keeps out states able to turn the power on in the morning.
Well this will certainly be an interesting year, wont it? I am curious if this does what she says, if things get worse than they are what changes will come? Could be huge.... We also cant forget about the commercial real estate market which is destined to tank soon too.
I've been reading this thread from the original post including all posted links. for hours.
worrisome.
sorta wish I was medicated like the rest of the sleeping naysayers.
what are they on if they think all is swell.
oh and don't drink the water_until you test your tap for chromium6.
thanks for posting and maintaining eventhough I feel more angsty.
"Angsty" Good word.
I have a couple of friends whose entire holdings and entire income depend on municipal bonds and I fear for them.
All of their bonds are insured and general obligation bonds which might mitigate some of the damage and they have avoided California, New Jersey and Illinois, too.
It is probable that the courts would put the claims of the pension beneficiaries ahead of those of bond holders in cases of municipal default. There ain't enough insurance in the world if that house of cards comes down.
Been saying it for quite a few years now..............public spends more than what is available, there are problems! I see no reason why government at any level should be any different! City of Jacksonville will be something like $58 Million Dollars in the hole next budget cycle...........what is next? Hard to make up for that kind of money, but current Administration continues to spend what we don't have! Not very smart nor fiscally responcible!
Can't wait for the next round of taxpayer funded shortfalls. Gotta hand it to the invisible mayor, stating to publicly avoid asking for the union support. Really wonder where Hogan's head is at for wanting the union support, and thankful Audrey has enough sense not to ask for it. Unions are going to be a huge issue headed into the election as well. Good article by Littlepage in the TU on it.
A pretty good opinion piece about Muni Bonds on Bloomberg today.
Quote
Meredith Whitney Overreaches in Muni Default Call: Joe Mysak
There will be between 50 and 100 “significant†municipal bond defaults in 2011, totaling “hundreds of billions†of dollars.
So said banking analyst and new municipal bond expert Meredith Whitney on the “60 Minutes†show on Sunday, in perhaps the boldest, most overreaching call of her career.
Hundreds of billions of dollars? The one-year record, set in 2008, is $8.2 billion. You can see how an estimate of “hundreds of billions†would get people’s attention.
There are a lot of reasons to be doubtful about the health of the municipal market right now, as elucidated by “60 Minutes†correspondent Steve Kroft. Tax revenue is down, public pension and health-care liabilities are up, the federal government’s bailout money to the states is running out and the chances that those funds will be replenished are remote.
And yet -- hundreds of billions of dollars in default? The number is in the realm of the fabulous. If pressed, I would say that we might see between 100 and 200 municipal defaults next year, maybe totaling in the $5 billion or $10 billion range.
Whitney doesn’t believe the states will default. That leaves us with local governments and authorities as the ones failing to pay debt service on their bonds, which makes this an even bolder call.
Most defaults in the modern era aren’t governmental or what we might call municipal at all. The majority are corporate or nonprofit borrowings in the guise of some municipal conduit -- nursing homes, housing developments, biofuel refineries -- so they could qualify for tax-free financing.
Whitney’s Vision
And those are the ones I think will still comprise the majority of defaults in 2011.
This isn’t the Whitney scenario. No, she envisions between 50 and 100 -- or more -- counties, cities and towns making the choice to renege on their bonded debt.
My question is: Why?
Why would a governmental entity go out of its way to provoke or alienate its best source of finance? In the old days you might say that bondholders were a distant class of banks and plutocrats mainly centered in the Northeast. That’s no longer true, and hasn’t been since at least the passage of the Tax Reform Act of 1986, which made bonds less attractive for banks and insurance companies, among other things. Today, a city’s bondholders might live in the municipality itself, and almost certainly reside within the state.
Debt Service
Why would a governmental entity choose to default on its bonds, especially if they make up a relatively small proportion of its costs?
“Debt levels for U.S. local and state governments are relatively low, with annual debt service representing a relatively small part of budgets,†Fitch Ratings said in a special report in November.
Entitled “U.S. State and Local Government Bond Credit Quality: More Sparks Than Fire,†the report said, “The tax- supported debt of an average state is equal to just 3 percent - 4 percent of personal income, and local debt roughly 3 percent - 5 percent of property value. Debt service is generally less than 10 percent of a state or local government’s budget, and in many cases much less.â€
The lead analyst on the report was Richard Raphael, who has been covering municipal finance for 31 years. He is not one of the analysts “who got everything wrong in the housing collapse,†in the words of correspondent Kroft. In his report, Raphael said, “debt service is a relatively small part of most budgets, so not paying it does not do much to solve fiscal problems (particularly as compared to the costs of such an action).â€
Headline Grabber
What irks me about this Whitney call is that it generalizes about a market that resists generalization, a market that is particular and specific to a remarkable degree. And it doesn’t answer the question “Why?†It is instead an assertion aimed at getting attention.
Whitney made headlines in 2007 when she predicted Citigroup would lower its dividend and that it was time to sell bank stocks. She made headlines in September when she said she produced a report on 15 states’ financial condition, and said the federal government might be called upon to bail them out. Whitney only let clients see the report, so I don’t know if her conclusions are supported. She said it was 600 pages long and had taken two years to produce.
Perhaps Whitney should stick with bank stocks.
(Joe Mysak is a Bloomberg News columnist. The opinions expressed are his own.)
I'm so glad that you posted that Bloomberg opinion piece Chipwich, as I read it today and it basically summed up my beliefs and was more or less what i mentioned a couple of days ago in this topic.
I respect the hell out of Meredith Whitney as an analyst in the financial sector, but I believe she is way off on this one, and it's the type of goofy 60 Minutes type piece that tries to do the impossible (describe the municipal bond landscape in the time it takes to fold a load of laundry) and completely misses a lot of huge points, specifically as I mentioned a few days ago and as the Bloomberg piece pointed out today, that the municipal market is so incredibly diverse and segmented that no one thing (including state budget deficits) can sink it.
The Fed absorbed 1.8 trillion dollars worth of illiquid asset backed debt as QE1. If the prediction I made and the Bloomberg piece makes of at most 10 billion in defaults comes true, or if Whitney's non-denominated opinion of 50-100 defaults (we'll call it 100 billion) comes true, it's a complete drop in the bucket compared to what we've been through. It may cause some pain and set us back a bit, but it is no way a crisis the likes of anything we have seen lately (ie the credit crisis or even the European debt crisis). In addition, aside from Build America Bonds, tax incentives make it unfavorable for absolutely nobody (foreign countries, every day Americans, pension funds, corporations etc) to actually own Municipal bonds except individuals in high tax brackets.
Stephendare, I would love to hear in your own words your opinion on the subject. From what I read of the first few pages (albeit they were from 2008), you basically presented yourself as an expert on the subject ("I would go into it further for you, but I don't have the time") and made fun of a forum member for pointing out some very basic points about municipal bonds that almost anyone who follows the market could tell you and asked him for proof, and when I question the relevance on some of the articles you have posted (for example, using archaic failures for ARS auctions as evidence of a Municipal crisis when that hasn't even been on the radar for two years), your only response is copying and pasting more opinion pieces.
The fallout from munibonds is likely going to land on the taxpayers through the fed bailing out bond insurers, if the past 3 years has taught us anything. The main problem if mass-scale defaults start happening will be local governments being essentially locked out of borrowing money for a period of time, when they have become almost fully dependent on borrowing to keep the lights on. That should get interesting at a local level.
And yeah PVBGuy and RG were idiots, LMAO at those memories of 2007/2008 when they said the recession would be over in 6 months and real estate would be higher than before. Genius.