Learning From Georgia I: Centennial Olympic Park
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1077-coke-exterior-2.jpg)
While Jacksonville is known for having the largest urban park system in the country, it doesn't take much to see that we struggle to get the most out of our parks. Let's take a look at how Atlanta, another Sunbelt Sprawler, has created one of the most successful urban public spaces in less than ten years.
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http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/452
I worked on the Olympics in 96, met Billy Payne on a few occasions, and was aware of the goals/success of the "Brick" program. It was not the Brick program that provided any real funding for the Park -- it was largely the "donations" of Atlanta's corporations, as you mention, and their willingness to follow a very strong leader (Payne). The city, too, got on board, and filled any remaining gaps in manpower/resources (though these weren't large b/c the city's companies knew they needed to be the money). These companies also got back in the form of sponsorship marketing and Patron packages, that included tickets, to the Games.
Where are Jacksonville's companies, other than working with the city to figure out ways to shuttle their employees to the suburbs?
John Culbreth, who our fine city just let go, was also involved in the Games and the Centennial Olympic Park project.
World of Coca-Cola? Where is our Maxwell-House museum?
And, I know McCormick & Schmick's is technically a "chain", but they're one of the best seafood restaurants in the world. I would just about give an arm to have one downtown (and please not ANOTHER steakhouse!!!)
a maxwell house museum would be killer!
Don't forget Firehouse Subs ....
The sad thing is, so many local companies have been swallowed up by out of town companies and no longer consider Jax there HQ/home.
Barnett Bank -- now in CLT
Independent Life - now in Nashville
American Heritage Life - out in the burbs, practicaally St. John's County
and now Florida Rock can be added to the list
Did anyone see the article in the last week where Jerry Mallot downplayed the lost of such companies while Bill Foley of Fidelity spoke the truth about the situation.
The Centennial Olympic Park was helped because of the OLYMPICS!! We don't have that. Nor do we have the corporate support needed to build anything close to this. The fact that this type of urban atmosphere can strive in Atlanta is impressive. After all, Atlanta is the sprawl king. But this will never happen here. We will never have anything like this as long as the good ol boys are in charge. We will be stuck with pointless pocket parks and a boy mayor that wants ferris wheels and cotton candy downtown.
Interesting timing, I'm going to Ga. Aqarium in the morning and probably the WOCoke too. The Varsity, a Braves game may also be on the agenda. If I have time, the Grant Park area may be in the game plan, I have not been there since my teen years. By the way, I have a brick in Centennial Park too.
QuoteThe Centennial Olympic Park was helped because of the OLYMPICS!! We don't have that. Nor do we have the corporate support needed to build anything close to this.
One thing I've come across since working with Metro Jacksonville in the past few years is that this community is very good at coming up with excuses to why it continues to settle for second class results and visions.
While, the park was funded for the olympics, it's current layout opened in 1998, two years after the games. Most of the uses you see there today have nothing to do with the olympics and everything to do with "clustering" and creating a "critical mass" of complementing development within a compact setting.
Over the next few weeks, look for additional examples of successful urban public park spaces from cities that didn't get the olympics and are smaller than Jacksonville.
QuoteThe fact that this type of urban atmosphere can strive in Atlanta is impressive. After all, Atlanta is the sprawl king. But this will never happen here. We will never have anything like this as long as the good ol boys are in charge.
The city's government is only a by-product of it's people. If the community wants better, it will do the things needed to achieve those results. That's why Riverside's parks look a lot better than many others across the city.
Private Money can make all the difference. There are plenty of local companies and home grown folks who are willing to make things happen. We just have to have the right people in place to ask for the help. The things that are desired must also make sense. We cant expect Fidelity or anyone else to give us money willy nilly. We (Jacksonville) have to have a plan. Im not sure we have one right now
As somebody who has lived in Atlanta and Jacksonville in recent years, it is not even close when it comes to urban renewal. Atlanta is kicking out butts. And housing prices are cheaper in Atlanta. You get more house for less. Jacksonville is turning into a microcosm of the United State. The gap between the upper and middle class in Jacksonville is growing, housing prices are outrageous, foreclosures are embarrassing and education is pathetic.
QuoteThe things that are desired must also make sense. We cant expect Fidelity or anyone else to give us money willy nilly. We (Jacksonville) have to have a plan. Im not sure we have one right now
Does SPAR and the Springfield community have an official plan or vision for the park system linging Hogan's Creek?
As usual in these learning from threads, it can turn into a negative feast very rapidly. Remember guys, this is ATL, an olympic city we are talking about; I'm quite sure that they can kick alotta cities butts (probably all in FL in many catergories). As soon as I saw this thread I knew that people was gonna beat up Barbaro; ATL really put us to shame; Really!!! No S**t! While I agree that our city has poor government, I still think that it's crazy to compare us to a Olympic city in every freakin' realm; Suddenly what supposed to be talk about urban parks, turned into a comparison between these two cities in every catergory. Michael-Lee, you said that ATL has lower housing costs than Jax; How can that be? ATL's cost of living (which includes housing, grocery items, utilities, transportation, heatlh care, and goods and services) was higher than Jax's in 2006; I seriously doubt that ATL's housing is lower than Jax's; I'll be the first to admit if I'm wrong.
Yes, ATL is an "Olympic city", but it wasn't prior to the Games being awarded. They did not sit around and say "we can't compete at that level" like Jacksonville does. They said let's give it our best shot; city got on board, companies got on board, citizenry got on board.
When they were awarded the games, they thought about it on two levels -- how can we make this the best summer games ever (which might have been accomplished were it not for a home-grown terrorist), and how can we do it in a way that will leave the city with lasting, positive improvements?
Is being a superbowl city that much worse? what lasting, positive improvements did Jacksonville create? Jacksonville approached that event as a one-time party, and none of the things that made that event work remain (at least in the downtown). I'd even say the remaining attitude feels as great as a hangover!
The only thing we have from the superbowl was the lighted bridges and a week long circus down Bay Street. Like the fair, when the clock struck midnight, all the clowns and fanfare packed their bags up and hit the road.
By comparison, Houston constructed a seven mile light rail system (all with their own city money) and a new convention center. Now both are paying off big time for that city, especially the light rail. It's spurring transit oriented development and creating an urban lifestyle that no one could imagine ever rising in one of the most sprawled out cities in America.
As for Detroit, they created Campus Martius Park, in the heart of downtown, as well as a complete revamp of Woodward Avenue. Today, that area is the epicenter of downtown's rapid revitalization. Despite being one of the most economically depressed cities in the country, Detroit's downtown is now outpacing ours.
These are just two of many examples, that show at some point you have to stop making excuses for yourself and seriously strive to become a better place.
Lakelander, awesome post. And your post points out some reasons we will never get another Super Bowl.
So I guess all of those condos sprouting up in DT Jax doesn't mean anything. Lake, I know you just didn't mention Detroit with all of those job cuts with the auto industry there. Let me see, what overshadows what, a park in DT Detroit, or all of those people losing jobs in Detroit's auto industry.
I-10, don't immediately come to the defense of our city. That's one of the problems with struggling to push this place to the next level. Nobody means our community ill will, but sitting back and coming up with excuses of why we can't do this or why others can isn't doing Jacksonville any good.
Yes, I did mention Detroit. I'm still amazed myself that a city with a depressed economy like theirs can swing blow for blow with us, when it comes to recent downtown revitalization. This tells me that we're definately not taking advantage of the opportunities we have with our city. If you don't believe me, I'll be in Detroit next week and since I have a new camera, I'll be sure to snap a few shots of some of the new projects going up there.
Here are a few pics from the last time I was there.
Woodward Avenue streetscape
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/Woodward.jpg)
Hockey Town
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/HockeyTown.jpg)
Campus Martius Park
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/greening_of_main/Detroit-CampusMartius.jpg)
after the park opened, soon CVS, Borders Books and the Hard Rock Cafe followed...
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/CVS-downtown.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/BordersBooks.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/Hard-Rock-Cafe.jpg)
we're also not the only place seeing people move back to the core..
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/detroit/loft-banners.jpg)
Lake, you're on point as always. I don't wanna sound like I'm arguing with people all of the time, cuz I'm not that type of person, and I said this before; I understand making excuses, and being complacent is not good, but it always seems like the basic emphasis on Metro Jax is that every comparsion city is rosy, and unflawed, and Jacksonville is the worst city ever planned. To tell you the truth, I get depressed just by reading articles on Metro Jax; (Fill in the blank city) really puts Jax to shame; Doesn't that get a little melancholy, and monotonous. What really kills me is that erroneous info will go unchecked, as long as it's negative; Someone can say something like "Orlando clearly has a far better military presence than Jax" and no one will say anything.; I'm just like damn, I know there's some very smart people aboard these forums, and yall ain't gonna leave it to me to say something.
Sorry for the one more "negative", but the lighting of the bridges isn't even being maintained. Main St. bridge lights haven't worked for months (maybe we need to have a task force)...
Quotebut it always seems like the basic emphasis on Metro Jax is that every comparsion city is rosy, and unflawed, and Jacksonville is the worst city ever planned. To tell you the truth, I get depressed just by reading articles on Metro Jax; (Fill in the blank city) really puts Jax to shame; Doesn't that get a little melancholy, and monotonous.
Remember that the point of the "Comparison" and "Learning from" articles are to show things that other cities are doing right, that we could benefit from locally. They're not to pat ourselves on our back, although occassionally we'll point out what some are doing wrong as well.
Nevertheless, bad information should never go unchecked. If you see something off base, feel free to mention it and why it's off base.
Atlanta offers a variety of things that Jacksonville cannot. For one thing, It can build and expand in all directions, we can only go N,W, or S. E is full of whales and sharks.
Jacksonville offers a major river, a consolidated government so there are no city-count governmental issues, no state income tax, and some business incentives. It also has a port.
You must build on what you have. Atlanta could have a dozen town centers. Jacksonville may have one or two very well done. Atlanta is the state capitol which means that every year, everyone wanting to petition the state must come through there. The Governor lives there so he knows what is needed.
Jacksonville barely supports NFL, it is a stretch to do it, and probably could not support NBA or National League Baseball(since most people here think this is what you do only waiting for football season). But we kick Atlanta all over in terms of water related recreation, and indeed, hold our on, with a smaller population, in golf and other outdoor sports.
And remember, our traffic is still less than 10% of Atlanta traffic, there is no comparision between Georgia Road 400 and Butler Blvd. Butler is by far easier to use and to access.
True we do not have the variety of upper end shoping that Atlanta has. But we also dont have their social problems.
Nice post Richard; You did a good job of looking on both sides of the fence; It wasn't the "doom and gloom to all of J-ville' post that I'm accustomed to on Metrojax.
Let me preface this buy saying I know ATL is a big city and all of that crap; People talk about J-ville having an identity crisis; Look at ATL, a city that's named Atlanta that's no where near the Atlantic Ocean; Wouldn't that kinda be like naming Vegas "Pacifica"; I think it's pretty obvious why that aquarium is there.
So why are there aquariums in waterfront cities like Tampa, Charleston and Baltimore? Regarding this topic, what was done wrong with Centinnial Park that we should avoid doing here? What are the negatives of Centinnial Park? How do our best urban parks, compare with the vibrancy of Centinnial?
We should get some interesting comments when the next line of comparison threads (Savannah, Macon, Detroit, Toronto & Charlotte) hit the front page.
We'll have a wide range of cities that have different economies, forms of leadership, levels of historic urban fabric, attractions and problems, regarding their downtowns.
Overall, we can come up with several reasons/excuses of why city "x" is the way it is and why Jax can't achieve similar positive results or shouldn't be compared. Nevertheless, sooner or later we have to face the fact that to take advantage of our assets, we must first admit there's room for improvement.
Right now, we're not effectively doing that. We would also be open to those who feel that Jax is being unfairly judged at this site, to suggest some additional places for critique that you think match up better with our economy and setting. After all, these photo articles serve as a learning experience, so the general public can see what other places are doing with their cores.
I am not so sure that Atlanta has gotten a lot right in the urbanism area. In fact, they are the poster child for suburban sprawl being even worse than LA. Of course, they are building there now some great infill developments in Midtown but their downtown is still pretty awful and inhabited largely by the lowest rungs of society and most of the development there is occuring in the far flung suburbs and in Buckhead which is a linear suburban area still and will be for many years to come. So, in my view, Jacksonville could be the San Francisco of the Southeast while Atlanta already is the LA of the Southeast.
Atlanta's downtown offers both positive and negative examples in how to create a vibrant downtown area. In the next few days, as the Learning from Georgia series continues, we'll see the good, bad and ugly of Atlanta's downtown area, before checking out Macon and Savannah's.
An inland city with the name "Atlanta". What's their connection to the ocean? The Georgia Aquarium. That's what I was getting at Lake.
gotcha.
Ummm, prior to Atlanta, the town was named Terminus and I don't think Atlanta's name has any thing to do with oceans. ;) Maybe I'm missing your point...
http://roadsidegeorgia.com/city/atlanta01.html
Whether ATL 's name does or do not have anything to do with the Alantic, you'd think they'll be a connection. I dont think it's a coincidence that the Georgia Aquarium is the biggest in the aquarium in the world.