Suburban Infill: Baymeadows Junction
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6718-c018659.jpg)
Baymeadows Junction is a text book example of redeveloping abandoned and blighted big box spaces into new uses that benefit their surroundings.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/904
Wikipedia claims suburban infill's aim to "reduce the need for automobiles, encourage walking and ultimately save energy" (wikipedia).
Therefore this post is mislabeled. You can forget walking there because there aren't many apartment complexes within walking distances. Moreover, you are extremely dependent on your car because bicycling to that strip-mall is dangerous both on Baymeadows (no bike lanes whatsoever) and Phillips (extremely high speeds to ride bicycle with). I know because I have tried that. This makes that place very car dependent.
I think that development is a good example of how something abandoned was re-furbished into a decent looking strip mall with quality shops. I am not an urban planner by profession or qualification but I would rather not define that development as a Suburban Infill. It does not qualify to be a part of New Urbanism or Smart Growth and should not be called that. Atlantic Crossing was at least a small step in the right direction.
It would indeed make a good stop for a commuter rail station but then comes the problem of moving people from the station to their homes. If decent bike paths and mass transit (street cars etc) are not planned to do that, then we will only see even larger parking lots and a bigger nightmare on Baymeadows and Philips. This could probably have been a good site for Transit Oriented Development.
I was shocked to see this structure reused because most of the time developers would rather start from scratch. Very nice project and I'm sure Mr. Ash pulled a nice chuck of profit.
The surrounding surface lot could be developed as well to include vertical parking and midrise residential. All is not lost for the future of this site. It'll just take some adjustments with the city's development requirements.
Good point about the nonmenclature, Abhishek.
And also good point about the commuter rail point. I believe, unless I'm mistaken, that a Baymeadows rail station was mentioned in the latest commuter rail study plan. Maybe, if/when the commuter rail thing goes through (pardon the pun), this could still end up being a TOD/TAD as well as more strictly adhering to the 'suburban infill' designation.
Sort of off-topic but was that GM building where there was a shooting 15-20 years ago or so? I remember it as a child but do not know exactly where it occured.
QuoteWikipedia claims suburban infill's aim to "reduce the need for automobiles, encourage walking and ultimately save energy" (wikipedia).
Therefore this post is mislabeled. You can forget walking there because there aren't many apartment complexes within walking distances. Moreover, you are extremely dependent on your car because bicycling to that strip-mall is dangerous both on Baymeadows (no bike lanes whatsoever) and Phillips (extremely high speeds to ride bicycle with). I know because I have tried that. This makes that place very car dependent.
Actually, there is an apartment complex right down Philips off of Freedom Crossing Trail. There is also a college directly adjacent.
But anyways, I think in this example they are referring to infill in the redevelopment sense. You are correct though, this site does rely heavily on the auto (as do most in Jax). However, with the potential for a commuter rail connection this location could be a prime location for a transit destination.
Quote from: copperfiend on September 26, 2008, 09:09:50 AM
Sort of off-topic but was that GM building where there was a shooting 15-20 years ago or so? I remember it as a child but do not know exactly where it occured.
I believe you're thinking of the shooting at the GMAC office, which was on Baymeadows Way. It's now (or it was last time I was there) a Florida Telco branch.
Infill (by definition) is vacant land that is surrounded by development.
In this case, the old GM builkding was abandoned so the land was in essence vacant.
As a redevelopment project, its not bad...sure more density and a walkable environment might have been nice...but this far better than leaving an empty building to rot!
Quote from: hiddentrack on September 26, 2008, 09:29:05 AM
Quote from: copperfiend on September 26, 2008, 09:09:50 AM
Sort of off-topic but was that GM building where there was a shooting 15-20 years ago or so? I remember it as a child but do not know exactly where it occured.
I believe you're thinking of the shooting at the GMAC office, which was on Baymeadows Way. It's now (or it was last time I was there) a Florida Telco branch.
Thanks. I knew it was in the area but wasn't sure where.
@ tufsu1
I was opposing the title of the post "Suburban Infill" which has a definition incongruent with the development. I agree that it is better than an eyesore of a rotting building.
QuoteI was opposing the title of the post "Suburban Infill" which has a definition incongruent with the development.
I disagree with your (or Wikipedia's) definition. While suburban infill can exhibit the characteristics of a transit oriented or New Urbanist, or smart growth development, it doesn't necessarily have to.
Quote from: Abhishek on September 26, 2008, 08:33:13 AM
Wikipedia claims suburban infill's aim to "reduce the need for automobiles, encourage walking and ultimately save energy" (wikipedia).
Therefore this post is mislabeled. You can forget walking there because there aren't many apartment complexes within walking distances. Moreover, you are extremely dependent on your car because bicycling to that strip-mall is dangerous both on Baymeadows (no bike lanes whatsoever) and Phillips (extremely high speeds to ride bicycle with). I know because I have tried that. This makes that place very car dependent.
I think that development is a good example of how something abandoned was re-furbished into a decent looking strip mall with quality shops. I am not an urban planner by profession or qualification but I would rather not define that development as a Suburban Infill. It does not qualify to be a part of New Urbanism or Smart Growth and should not be called that. Atlantic Crossing was at least a small step in the right direction.
It would indeed make a good stop for a commuter rail station but then comes the problem of moving people from the station to their homes. If decent bike paths and mass transit (street cars etc) are not planned to do that, then we will only see even larger parking lots and a bigger nightmare on Baymeadows and Philips. This could probably have been a good site for Transit Oriented Development.
When I put the title together, I figured this would come up. How about instead of Suburban Infill, we call it Adaptive Reuse?
Technicality
QuoteHow about instead of Suburban Infill, we call it Adaptive Reuse?
They both work for me.
At any rate, I think that the potential of commuter rail could provide a very good opportunity for redevelopment in this area. We have seen some redevelopment already with this project as well as the Lowe's to the north. However, Baymeadows Road east of Philips is dying (or some would say already dead). There are many vacant buildings and storefronts. Perhaps the presence of a rail stop could help to revitalize that area. There would need to be some pedestrian-oriented modifications to the intersection of Philips and Baymeadows but the area could be turned around potentially. There is a lot of residential west of the RR tracks which would help.
@ thelakelander
Adaptive Reuse works. Thanks.
@ Jason
Technicality is important. It is a popular quote these days, but calling an 'adaptive reuse' a 'suburban infill' is like putting lipstick on a pig. Especially when you compare some 'real' suburban infills out there (worldwide).
Quote from: Abhishek on September 26, 2008, 08:33:13 AM
It would indeed make a good stop for a commuter rail station but then comes the problem of moving people from the station to their homes. If decent bike paths and mass transit (street cars etc) are not planned to do that, then we will only see even larger parking lots and a bigger nightmare on Baymeadows and Philips. This could probably have been a good site for Transit Oriented Development.
Actually, its a pretty good location. There area already bike lanes on this portion of Baymeadows. However, they do abruptly end about a block east of Philips. There's also a ton of existing multifamily housing immediately west of the tracks. Assuming a station platform is placed under the Baymeadows overpass, a 12' asphalt walking/jogging path could easily tie everything together. So despite the suburban layout of everything in this area, walkability could be enhanced with the installation of a sidewalk paralleling the rail line. On top of this, the commercial uses in the area would be a destination for transit riders living near other stops and neighborhoods along the line. For example, I could live in Springfield and catch a train down to Chicago Pizza for dinner or to catch a football game in a decent sports bar.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/TADaerial.jpg)
Quote from: cline on September 26, 2008, 09:50:54 AM
QuoteI was opposing the title of the post "Suburban Infill" which has a definition incongruent with the development.
I disagree with your (or Wikipedia's) definition. While suburban infill can exhibit the characteristics of a transit oriented or New Urbanist, or smart growth development, it doesn't necessarily have to.
I disagree with Wikipedia's definition as well. The site plan could essentially stay the same, commuter rail comes in, a few sidewalks are added and then all of a sudden, a couple of smart growth principles become a part of the picture. As cline said, while smart growth and new urbanist principles can be a part of suburban infill, they don't necessarily have to. Nevertheless, I think we can all agree that its definately Adaptive Reuse.
Quote from: cline on September 26, 2008, 10:05:03 AM
However, Baymeadows Road east of Philips is dying (or some would say already dead). There are many vacant buildings and storefronts. Perhaps the presence of a rail stop could help to revitalize that area. There would need to be some pedestrian-oriented modifications to the intersection of Philips and Baymeadows but the area could be turned around potentially.
Great point. Baymeadows is definately in need of a makeover. Considering the location of that stretch between I-95, the tracks and the office parks, it sets up perfectly for smart growth oriented redevelopment.
When Citibank moved out of Baymeadows, that was 3k+ people no longer going down that stretch of road. I did notice however that they were building a Sheraton branded hotel on that side of Baymeadows.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/ElectroMotiveJAX.png)
Sorry, but can we re-ID the EMD (Electro-Motive Division of GM) office? The EMD field office was on New Kings Road, at the current CSX crossing-overpass construction site. This is on the Port Access line and within a long block of NS, with easy access to FEC as well via the NS. Never on the Southside as far as I know.
The building still stands, but is in another use as EMD has been spun off and is independent today.
OCKLAWAHA
I like the above idea, and frankly so does the Florida East Coast (but you didn't hear that here). HA! They would like it even better if we could do this at Race Track Road, and Sunbeam. I think the map was not intended as high detail, but lets try not to forget without redeploying the bus fleet, and use of some quality bus features (yes, even BRT) Commuter Rail will fail. It must have feeders at the stops, (Remote Parking is also VERY IMPORTANT) so I added a couple of fantasy loops for buses - a stairwell and elevator down to trackside would finish them off. Otherwise, running the buses down alongside, and under by the platforms would be cheaper and maybe make more sense.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/BayMeadowsStation.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/lightningandTRACTION-1-1.jpg)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 26, 2008, 01:55:00 PM
Sorry, but can we re-ID the EMD (Electro-Motive Division of GM) office? The EMD field office was on New Kings Road, at the current CSX crossing-overpass construction site. This is on the Port Access line and within a long block of NS, with easy access to FEC as well via the NS. Never on the Southside as far as I know.
The building still stands, but is in another use as EMD has been spun off and is independent today.
OCKLAWAHA
Nice catch. I noticed I have historic images of two separate local GM facilities. The Southside building (shown in the first image) was the GM Parts Center, not the EMD. When we'll have to edit that out.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 26, 2008, 02:16:50 PM
I like the above idea, and frankly so does the Florida East Coast (but you didn't hear that here). HA! They would like it even better if we could do this at Race Track Road, and Sunbeam. I think the map was not intended as high detail, but lets try not to forget without redeploying the bus fleet, and use of some quality bus features (yes, even BRT) Commuter Rail will fail. It must have feeders at the stops, (Remote Parking is also VERY IMPORTANT) so I added a couple of fantasy loops for buses - a stairwell and elevator down to trackside would finish them off. Otherwise, running the buses down alongside, and under by the platforms would be cheaper and maybe make more sense.
No, the map wasn't intended to detail station design. It was only intended to show how a station could benefit and be connected with the surrounding mix of land uses. As for associated parking, I believe the Winn-Dixie shopping center has a large number of empty spaces. A portion of that property and its large surface lot, could potentially be redeveloped for additional retail and mass transit support uses.
QuoteNo, the map wasn't intended to detail station design. It was only intended to show how a station could benefit and be connected with the surrounding mix of land uses. As for associated parking, I believe the Winn-Dixie shopping center has a large number of empty spaces. A portion of that property and its large surface lot, could potentially be redeveloped for additional retail and mass transit support uses.
I thought so, but with the sidewalks/trails on it, I just wasn't sure. Your RIGHT, the GM thing on the Southside was the parts place. Makes sense too as FEC is more focused on single-car railroading then the other carriers, and they would have better local service.
As for the parking lots, that is something I spoke to Cameron Jones about on his Gateway Mall project. It would be awesome any place that RETAIL-PARKING-WORK-LIVE-and RAIL all come together. The idea of combining these parking facilities with transit parking has worked as a win-win in many places. OCKLAWAHA