What does this mean for mass transit hopes? Unrelated?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2008/09/08/story5.html?b=1220846400^1694872
For residents of Duval, it means we won't foot all of the costs for the Clay traffic that pours into town every day. Ditto for the other counties, together we can do things like commuter rail, light rail or BRT that benefits everyone on every road. Those that use transit will save the largest $$$, and by lessening the traffic crunch, those on the highways will save both time and highway $$$.
Win Win
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 11, 2008, 04:13:30 PM
For residents of Duval, it means we won't foot all of the costs for the Clay traffic that pours into town every day. Ditto for the other counties, together we can do things like commuter rail, light rail or BRT that benefits everyone on every road. Those that use transit will save the largest $$$, and by lessening the traffic crunch, those on the highways will save both time and highway $$$.
Win Win
OCKLAWAHA
not win win for the many residents of outlying areas who will be taxed to fund duval's mass transit, it's called income redistribution. while some residents of clay would benefit from an easy commute to JAX, why should everyone pay for cheap commuting for those who choose to live so far from their employment? In fact the argument can be made that expansion of mass transit to the exurbs actually promotes more sprawl
You seem to have a very dim view of public improvements that benefit everyone. If I live in Duval, and work in Duval, as my parents did, we would still win. How? Every day at 4:40 dad would pull out of NAS JAX and head for Ortega. He and 30,000 others jammed Roosevelt getting home. Had he turned South to Collins Road, the story would have been the same. Now imagine that 5,000 of those persons could have boarded commuter trains at Yukon. You just created a huge hole in the traffic jam and O&M on Roosevelt itself. Spread between two, three, four or more counties, each paying it's fair share based on real traffic counts, we could take more then that off of the highway.
Redristubition of the wealth? No. Redristribution of the costs? No. Leveling the field, absolutely!
Did you know that a double track railroad line, (forget LRT or Commuter Rail), ANY railroad line in decent shape has the same Passenger miles per Hour capacity as a 10 lane freeway? Since we ALREADY HAVE railroads that are not being used anywhere near their capacity, imagine the savings in construction costs. Did you know a mile of railroad is CHEAPER to build then a mile of freeway? WAY CHEAPER. The highway lasts 20 years but not without a ton of money to keep it surfaced. The railroad lasts 100 years according to the FTA/FRA.
I question your motives here, how much money did the street in front of your house put in my pocket last year? Did it make money? Shouldn't it be a toll road so "only those that use it pay for it?" Imagine the folks on Kernan paying for one of those interchanges... 150 MILLION DOLLARS split what... a couple thousand ways?
Good luck on getting that past those folks. Fact is you and I are both paying for Kernan at Beach. So is the guy in Baldwin, or Oceanway, or Lake Shore, or Mandarin. Should we shut down all of the parks and beaches that don't cover their operating costs? Close the Library's? Museums? Historic sites? Cha-Ching, we'd be the "richest" city in the world for about a week...by that time, we'd all be leaving town.
Mass Transit is just one tool in a bucket of tools that can and does work in many places, even LOS ANGELES. No one every would have guessed LA could make anyone abandon their automobiles, yet their train services are now second only to the famous Northeast Corridor in ridership and numbers. It's not always a "build it and they will come" story, rather "BUILD IT SMART - FINISH IT", and they will have no excuse NOT to come.
OCKLAWAHA
We all pay for roads they are the cost monster. The way to cut that most expensive of transit costs is funding mass transit. It is a win win because mass transit cuts the big expense roads.
That is a FACT Jeffery!
I checked into Apvbguys standard line "highways are investments and transit is a subsidy" argument. I looked at the base line cost of a highway interchange/overpass. At $150,000,000 dollars, the Kernan overpass at Beach would cost every man, woman and child in the 32224 zip code about $4,000 dollars. That covers every household from Mayport to Jax Beach to Town Center, again based on the 2005 population. SO... If the family in Ortega, Baldwin, Moncrief or San Jose doesn't ante-up, we ain't driving anywhere.
Per passenger costs, Mass Transit is a HUGE bargain, even for those that never step foot onboard.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 11, 2008, 08:18:13 PM
That is a FACT Jeffery!
I checked into Apvbguys standard line "highways are investments and transit is a subsidy" argument. I looked at the base line cost of a highway interchange/overpass. At $150,000,000 dollars, the Kernan overpass at Beach would cost every man, woman and child in the 32224 zip code about $4,000 dollars. That covers every household from Mayport to Jax Beach to Town Center, again based on the 2005 population. SO... If the family in Ortega, Baldwin, Moncrief or San Jose doesn't ante-up, we ain't driving anywhere.
Per passenger costs, Mass Transit is a HUGE bargain, even for those that never step foot onboard.
OCKLAWAHA
I see now you are resorting to putting words into my mouth, everyone benefits from highways, think about all that food appears in your local supermarket, commuter transit benefits commuters ONLY
No one is anti highway. If you lessen the cost of maintenace and need for expanssion by taking some commuters off the road you do not hurt shipping. Easing traffic via transit methods that are already taking place all over the country is not some pipe dream to waste money. Do not trust us even casual research will reveal this to you. Start with charlote a city less dense than Jax but comprable in many ways.
QuoteI see now you are resorting to putting words into my mouth, everyone benefits from highways, think about all that food appears in your local supermarket, commuter transit benefits commuters ONLY
Jeffery pegged the argument again, bottom line, I saw your bread truck last week while stuck on the Southside trying to get to JTB for 1.50 hours! Stuff was getting stale right there in front of me...LOLOCKLAWAHA
BTW if we want to introduce other modes like trucks into this then here is food for thought based on the funny claims in the CSX commercials. The claim on the CSX commerical is accurate and can be supported by operational data reported by CSX on their most recent SEC Form 8K filed 1/22/08.
From the 4th Quarter 2007 report, CSX moved 253 billion revenue ton-miles of goods in the 12 months ending 12/31/07. In that same period CSX operations consumed 569 million gallons of diesel #2 fuel. Taking the net ton-miles and dividing by the fuel consumed (253 billion / 569 million) you get 444 ton-miles per gallon of fuel. Stated another way, one gallon of fuel moved one ton 444 miles. That is pretty close to the 423 mile claim in the ad.
Data reported by other railroads is similar. Meanwhile, back to commuters, take a look at Atlantic City's Streetcar plan.
No streetcar will ever spew diesel exhaust into your face as it passes by. Steel wheels on steel rails present one-fifth the rolling resistance of pneumatic tires, saving energy. Besides all the latest space-age electronic equipment, LRVs can be fitted with the same trolley bells that gently announced their arrival to our grandparents.
Even more important is the environmental gain that results from the shift of motorists to light rail, when compared to buses. And the difference between private cars and LRVs in terms of using energy to move people is enormously in favor of light rail. An electric motor converts 80 to 90 percent of its energy into mechanical motion, compared with 10 to 12 percent for an internal combustion engine. SOME of these benefits, certainly not rolling resistance, but certain other benefits pass from streetcar to trolley-bus.
OCKLAWAHA