I noticed how cities that are just near Jacksonville in MSA population are the smallest cities that have NBA franchises.
Salt Lake City at 1 mil with Jazz. (no NFL)
New Orleans at 1 mil with Hornets. (NFL team also)
Ocklawaha City (heh heh) at 1,190,000 with the formerly known as Sonics. (no NFL)
Memphis at 1,200,000 with the Griz (NFL in state)
Milwaukee at 1,544,000 with the Bucks (NFL in state)
Charlotte at 1,600,000 with the Bobcats (NFL team also)
Many cities closer to 2 mil do not have NBA teams: Columbus, Indy, Norfolk, etc.
In 5-7 years, Jax population will could easily hit the 1,500/1,700,000 range. At that time, perhaps someone would be willing to foot the bill for a new franchise or entice another to come here like the...Jacksonville Jazz? Jacksonville Hornets? That'd be pretty cool. Let's take the Hornets, they're already a winning team.
Pretty much fantasy with Orlando so close and not planning on moving anywhere.
Quote from: rjp2008 on September 02, 2008, 05:50:48 PM
Pretty much fantasy with Orlando so close and not planning on moving anywhere.
Yes, pretty much fantasy...although I don't know that it's got so much to do with the proximity to the Magic as much as the fact that Jacksonville can hardly handle it's one top pro sports team at the moment. If we secure the future of the Jags in Jax sometime in the next decade, which I truly believe we will do, then maybe in 15 years or so we could make a push for the NBA, NHL, MLB, or MLS.
But I think the NBA is pretty much at its full potential growth right now, as is the MLB. The NHL should in fact probably contract, and may need to some time down the road. So, believe it or not, MLS may be the most likely candidate in a decade or so. Of course, this analysis has everything to do with the state of the leagues, and nothing to do with our city itself. I hardly have any confidence that an MLS team could survive here even in ideal economic conditions...how long did the Cyclones last? 2 years? I don't even remember.
Anyway, Jacksonville Jazz...haha, I like it.
Seems like baseball and hockey would be the next thing - at the very least we should move up a tier from AA - seems like most of the cities would be comparable. Also, I believe that the Lizard Kings drew well in their prime. Maybe Rugby will take off & Jax can be the launchpad (the Axemen draw "ok" @ UNF) - when Russell Crowe brought his team here earlier this year it was eye opening.
Let's work on trying to keep the Jaguars from skipping town before trying to snag another pro franchise.
Quote from: rjp2008 on September 02, 2008, 05:50:48 PM
I noticed how cities that are just near Jacksonville in MSA population are the smallest cities that have NBA franchises.
Salt Lake City at 1 mil with Jazz. (no NFL)
New Orleans at 1 mil with Hornets. (NFL team also)
Ocklawaha City (heh heh) at 1,190,000 with the formerly known as Sonics. (no NFL)
Memphis at 1,200,000 with the Griz (NFL in state)
Milwaukee at 1,544,000 with the Bucks (NFL in state)
Charlotte at 1,600,000 with the Bobcats (NFL team also)
Many cities closer to 2 mil do not have NBA teams: Columbus, Indy, Norfolk, etc.
In 5-7 years, Jax population will could easily hit the 1,500/1,700,000 range. At that time, perhaps someone would be willing to foot the bill for a new franchise or entice another to come here like the...Jacksonville Jazz? Jacksonville Hornets? That'd be pretty cool. Let's take the Hornets, they're already a winning team.
Pretty much fantasy with Orlando so close and not planning on moving anywhere.
it's a nice dream but in a football crazed area they can't even sell out Jags games,
an NBA franchise would never stand a chance here.
no no let's get more sporting opions in! that way if one pro team leaves, it won't hurt as much.
Look at Seattle! I don't think anyone even noticed the supersonics left, but they're still crazy about football & baseball.
I am not a hokey fan but that is our best shot. MLB we could steal the Rays who aren't being supported even during the dream year. I know you need a big corporate presence to support baseball though. I would love the NBA the most but Orlando is just too close.
Mierda de Toro! *Use your Spanish translator at your own risk here.QuoteIn 5-7 years, Jax population will could easily hit the 1,500/1,700,000 range. At that time, perhaps someone would be willing to foot the bill for a new franchise or entice another to come here like the...Jacksonville Jazz? Jacksonville Hornets? That'd be pretty cool. Let's take the Hornets, they're already a winning team.
Pretty much fantasy with Orlando so close and not planning on moving anywhere.
The self defiling manners of the citizens of Florida's greatest city makes me want to puke. Sorry boys but someone tell me how far it is between the Staples Center in Los Angeles, where the Lakers play, and the Staples Center in Los Angeles where the Clippers play? Want to play the "Mickey Mouse town is too close card?" Fine, Oakland (Golden State) plays Sacramento (Kings) at 89 MILES!
The old tired Jaguar argument doesn't fly either, we have a stadium --- HELLO --- that was built for 1 or 2 college bowl games a year. College, as in 100,000 screaming 20 year old's in downtown. If it was built for the Jags, such as the new field in Miami, we too would only seat 50,000 or so... oops, my bad, then we'd be the only team in the league with a waiting list for ANY TICKETS! ANY SEASON!
Not bad if you ask me for a poor, southern, backwater, redneck, paper mill town - TURN WORLD PORT, FINANCE and COMMERCE CENTER! We'd pack the house, BANK ON IT NBA!
VIVA JACKSONVILLE!
"Hornets Really?" guess it's better then "Joint Strike Fighters...." wonder if "Blue Angels" could be used?OCKLAWAHAOcklawaha City? Ugg, Urk, Gag, Choke, Cough... "LOVE IT"
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 02, 2008, 11:13:52 PM
Mierda de Toro! *Use your Spanish translator at your own risk here.
QuoteIn 5-7 years, Jax population will could easily hit the 1,500/1,700,000 range. At that time, perhaps someone would be willing to foot the bill for a new franchise or entice another to come here like the...Jacksonville Jazz? Jacksonville Hornets? That'd be pretty cool. Let's take the Hornets, they're already a winning team.
Pretty much fantasy with Orlando so close and not planning on moving anywhere.
The self defiling manners of the citizens of Florida's greatest city makes me want to puke. Sorry boys but someone tell me how far it is between the Staples Center in Los Angeles, where the Lakers play, and the Staples Center in Los Angeles where the Clippers play? Want to play the "Mickey Mouse town is too close card?" Fine, Oakland (Golden State) plays Sacramento (Kings) at 89 MILES!
The old tired Jaguar argument doesn't fly either, we have a stadium --- HELLO --- that was built for 1 or 2 college bowl games a year. College, as in 100,000 screaming 20 year old's in downtown. If it was built for the Jags, such as the new field in Miami, we too would only seat 50,000 or so... oops, my bad, then we'd be the only team in the league with a waiting list for ANY TICKETS! ANY SEASON!
Not bad if you ask me for a poor, southern, backwater, redneck, paper mill town - TURN WORLD PORT, FINANCE and COMMERCE CENTER! We'd pack the house, BANK ON IT NBA!
VIVA JACKSONVILLE!
"Hornets Really?" guess it's better then "Joint Strike Fighters...." wonder if "Blue Angels" could be used?
OCKLAWAHA
Ocklawaha City? Ugg, Urk, Gag, Choke, Cough... "LOVE IT"
1) As I said before, I think the Orlando argument is bunk.
2) Not sure I understand what tired Jaguar argument you're referring too, Ock. Everything you said about stadium capacity is true, but what does that have to do with the question at hand? The truth is that the city is struggling to secure the long-term future of the Jacksonville Jaguars and that is a reason why we wouldn't be able to snag another major league team any time before that is done.
3) Blue Angels. That is a sweet name for a franchise, no matter the sport. Blue Angels in 2020. Put me down for the movement.
There is no demand for either a NBA or yet another overextended NHL franchise. Anyone that has lived in this town and watched the history of either the minor league basketball or hockey franchises would have to be high to propose a major league franchise here. I agree lets concentrate on selling out the NFL before getting something else.
I agree, can barely get people to the Jaguar games,,and the Suns games look like there pretty empty as well. Jax has a long way to go.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on September 03, 2008, 04:28:42 AM
I agree, can barely get people to the Jaguar games,,and the Suns games look like there pretty empty as well. Jax has a long way to go.
The Suns draw very well for a AA team. They outdraw most AAA teams.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on September 03, 2008, 04:28:42 AM
I agree, can barely get people to the Jaguar games,,and the Suns games look like there pretty empty as well. Jax has a long way to go.
This is a HUGE misconception...The Jaguars a only a few thousand from completely selling out the stadium...Even on games that it doesn't sell out, its full come 1 o'clock on Sundays. Its not like the jags are 10-15k short of selling out every game.
A few thousand is all it takes unfortunately. I'm a season ticket holder and love the games. Bu the fact is we still struggle to sell out the stadium, even with the covered seats. And yes I know that the covered seats brought the stadium down to normal NFL size. Suns draw extremely well for a AA franchise, but has a very family friendly ownership, Bragans are one of the best things to happen to the sports scene in jax. Does anyone else remember the previous owner, guy couldn't have cared less about the franchise.
Every Jags game I've been too has been sold out, 4 last season. Civil, as a season ticket hold you should easily notice that come Sunday the stands are full, blackout or not. The problem is selling the tickets ahead of time before the deadline. Not sure why people are so complacent about getting tickets. Maybe its just easier to get them at the gate?
Based on the schedule this season and the true chance for another deep playoff run and potential division title, there should be no problem selling out the stadium.
I think in the past you could buy a single game ticket for just a few dollars more than a season ticket. I think this year my season ticket cost about 53$ a game and the same single ticket would cost close to 70. The new price structure is to encourage season tickets.
Quote from: Jason on September 03, 2008, 09:36:08 AM
Every Jags game I've been too has been sold out, 4 last season. Civil, as a season ticket hold you should easily notice that come Sunday the stands are full, blackout or not. The problem is selling the tickets ahead of time before the deadline. Not sure why people are so complacent about getting tickets. Maybe its just easier to get them at the gate?
Based on the schedule this season and the true chance for another deep playoff run and potential division title, there should be no problem selling out the stadium.
the Jags getting 68k to turn out really is only a side bar issue, the fact is that JAX doesn't appear to be able to support an NBA franchise, how does the Orlando team draw?
NBA basketball like all top level sports is an expensive ticket and I (not exactly a scientific study) don't see the levels of income by a large enough group of people that will support a franchise. Like others have noted a minor league attempt was made and nobody came.
as for ice hockey, forget it! there are few people more interested in hockey around here than I am and I can say that JAX is hockey hell, so few care about the sport that a team at any level cannot survive.
MLS is doing well in some cities but the majority of the fans are usually hispanic immigrants and JAX really doesn't have enough of that group to provide a sold fan base.
Rugby is fringe sport (probably more popular than hockey in JAX) that won't sell tickets.
lastly we have baseball, it is a shame that JAX is only a AA town, but the level of fan turnout has a lot to so with that, the costs of ownership goes up as the level of play goes up and JAX cannot support a higher level team. One thing about the baseball team here is that not 1 game is televised! if they would get some games on TV that might generate some more interest.
This might sound harsh but in my 2 years here I've come to the conclusion that JAX is the biggest small town I've ever seen, which is fine by me
Jacksonville could support a AAA team. But there are only 30 AAA franchises in the country to go around. And I remember reading quotes from the Bragans that didn't make it seem like they were very interested in owning a AAA team.
Quote from: copperfiend on September 03, 2008, 11:06:12 AM
Jacksonville could support a AAA team. But there are only 30 AAA franchises in the country to go around. And I remember reading quotes from the Bragans that didn't make it seem like they were very interested in owning a AAA team.
the ownership of the Suns don't want a AAA team because the costs of a AAA team are higher and JAX cannot sustain the level of support necessary to attract and keep a AAA viable here.
Quote from: apvbguy on September 03, 2008, 11:15:29 AM
Quote from: copperfiend on September 03, 2008, 11:06:12 AM
Jacksonville could support a AAA team. But there are only 30 AAA franchises in the country to go around. And I remember reading quotes from the Bragans that didn't make it seem like they were very interested in owning a AAA team.
the ownership of the Suns don't want a AAA team because the costs of a AAA team are higher and JAX cannot sustain the level of support necessary to attract and keep a AAA viable here.
How do you figure they couldn't?
Quote from: copperfiend on September 03, 2008, 11:55:48 AM
Quote from: apvbguy on September 03, 2008, 11:15:29 AM
Quote from: copperfiend on September 03, 2008, 11:06:12 AM
Jacksonville could support a AAA team. But there are only 30 AAA franchises in the country to go around. And I remember reading quotes from the Bragans that didn't make it seem like they were very interested in owning a AAA team.
the ownership of the Suns don't want a AAA team because the costs of a AAA team are higher and JAX cannot sustain the level of support necessary to attract and keep a AAA viable here.
How do you figure they couldn't?
have you ever been to a game? 3k people a night ( and that's a good night) will not support a AAA team.
Quote from: apvbguy on September 03, 2008, 12:03:24 PM
Quote from: copperfiend on September 03, 2008, 11:55:48 AM
Quote from: apvbguy on September 03, 2008, 11:15:29 AM
Quote from: copperfiend on September 03, 2008, 11:06:12 AM
Jacksonville could support a AAA team. But there are only 30 AAA franchises in the country to go around. And I remember reading quotes from the Bragans that didn't make it seem like they were very interested in owning a AAA team.
the ownership of the Suns don't want a AAA team because the costs of a AAA team are higher and JAX cannot sustain the level of support necessary to attract and keep a AAA viable here.
How do you figure they couldn't?
have you ever been to a game? 3k people a night ( and that's a good night) will not support a AAA team.
They have led their league in attendance every year since the new park was built. They average over 5k. And a move to AAA would mean better attendance. Better product = more people showing up.
5000 per game is in line with the average attendance of AAA & above average for AA.....
Avg attendance of all MiLB and Independent Teams over the past 2 years
2007 avg attendance
43. Jacksonville Suns (SL) 5,739
2006 avg attendance
35. Jacksonville Suns (SL) 5,869
2 days of the 2010 NCAA's will be played in Jacksonville. Also this October, Orlando vs. Miami will be played here. That will be a big draw.
Jax should seek to entice international teams to play exhibition games here as well.
The Suns are all for becoming a AAA team, and Jacksonville specifically built a stadium big enough to meet AAA specifications. The problem is our relationship with the Dodgers. We have had a great relationship with the Dodgers, however we cannot be their AAA affiliate. That is because they play in a league where the easternmost team is, I believe, in OK City or perhaps Omaha. Therefore, a road trip to Jax. for those teams, and ANY road trip for the Jacksonville team is unfeasible. Until our affiliation with the Dodgers ends, we cannot move up. The best scenario would have been the move of the Braves AAA franchise from Richmond. Jacksonville is a Braves town, and the AAA affiliate of the Braves would have done very well indeed. I believe it will happen sooner than later, but AAA is the only new thing in sports this town will see for a while. The comments that the NHL needs to contract and that the NBA and MLB have reached their limit of franchises are correct. I dont know if it is oversight or what but I saw two names proposed for NBA teams: Jazz and Hornets. Um? I am going to assume you realize that the Utah Jazz (formerly New Orleans Jazz) and New Orleans Hornets already have those names? Are we going to steal their franchises? You would have to pry the Jazz from everyone in SLC's cold dead hands. Lastly, the Sonics leaving Seattle caused a huge uproar in that city. People are very upset. It did not go unnoticed and it did not go without an extended battle to keep them.
Quote from: Tripoli1711 on September 03, 2008, 01:41:57 PMI dont know if it is oversight or what but I saw two names proposed for NBA teams: Jazz and Hornets. Um? I am going to assume you realize that the Utah Jazz (formerly New Orleans Jazz) and New Orleans Hornets already have those names? Are we going to steal their franchises? You would have to pry the Jazz from everyone in SLC's cold dead hands. Lastly, the Sonics leaving Seattle caused a huge uproar in that city. People are very upset. It did not go unnoticed and it did not go without an extended battle to keep them.
And that was the thought behind my earlier comment. Regardless of whether the Jaguar ticket sales arrow is pointing up or down right now, we still need to focus on keeping what we have in the NFL and not on trying to go out and poach another city's major league teams.
We're pretty sensitive as both a city and a fanbase to rumors and reports suggesting that the Jags are first in line to move to L.A., and shouldn't be so willing to lust after another city's franchise.
We fans need to keep stoking the fire for what we have and prove we can sustain it before we could even hope to get looks from any other leagues anyway, IMO. People forget how Jacksonville was the pawn of the Falcons and Colts ('Colt Fever,' ring a bell?) in leverage with their cities long before the Jaguars were born, and got burned. Who's to say that wouldn't happen with another league? Even in getting the franchise, we came in the back door when the competing ownership groups fell apart.
As far as the AAA team goes, I do agree that it would be a welcome upgrade, but that's because Jacksonville has a well-established baseball history. We'll get there with the Jaguars again, if given time.
The Richmond Braves are moving to Gwinett County. New stadium is already being built.
You have hit the nail right on the head. This city may be ready for more in the future, but right now we are darn lucky to have what we've got. I was in Washington this past Thursday. It was my first Jaguars away game. Even though it was a preseason game, the impact was not lost on me. Pro Football is the most desired entertainment option a city could have. Washington DC, New York, Chicago, these are places you expect to have the distinction of a local NFL franchise. Jacksonville? It's not a given. There are several cities of similar populations and economic circumstances to Jacksonville. We have the Jaguars. They don't. It is huge. Even if you don't like football but you love Jacksonville, it is a matter of absolute civic pride. Forget about the NBA, MLS and all that... we MUST continue to support the Jaguars. I think we only need a few years. I am 28. I was 13 when we got the team, I'm the biggest Jaguars fan there is, but I remember liking another team. Some my age and older still have old loyalties. Kids who are 21.. they only know the Jaguars. Wait until they have the means to afford season tickets. We will be OK.
Though the Jaguars are my favorite sports franchise, the NBA is easily my favorite professional sports league on a whole. Even though I think it'd be the greatest thing in the world to see Jax get an NBA team, I question if it would be a good fit. I've been here in Jacksonville for several years now, and from what I've seen, it doesn't really seem like a basketball city. Cities like Detroit, New York, Boston, Indianapolis, and Charlotte eat, sleep and breathe basketball. You see packed public courts on every block, tons of basketball jersies being worn around town, and big interest in the high school and college level. I don't see that in Jax. Maybe I'm not looking in the right place, but even when I go to Sneakers to watch the NBA playoffs or Finals, there really isn't anybody there.
Love to see a team here for selfish reasons, but I'd rather have no team than a team rushed in prematurely only to flounder for five years and move.
I was surprised they were so few outdoor basketball courts here when I arrived (and the few there are not in great shape). With Donovan completely transforming UF basketball into a powerhouse, why it hasn't taken root here yet?
QuoteThe Richmond Braves are moving to Gwinett County. New stadium is already being built
I assume the Richmond Braves are the Atlanta Braves affiliate - why would they move within the same market so close to Atlanta?
Quote from: adamh0903 on September 03, 2008, 12:23:46 PM
Avg attendance of all MiLB and Independent Teams over the past 2 years
2007 avg attendance
43. Jacksonville Suns (SL) 5,739
2006 avg attendance
35. Jacksonville Suns (SL) 5,869
I am hardly an expert, but the few game that I've been to did not have 5k people there, maybe they sold 5k tickets but their rear ends were not in the seats. Ticket sales are a part of a team's income but they'd rather have bodies in the stands than people just buying seats. empty seats do not buy beer and hot dogs and whatever, and that's the profit center
Quote from: Tripoli1711 on September 03, 2008, 01:41:57 PM
The Suns are all for becoming a AAA team, and Jacksonville specifically built a stadium big enough to meet AAA specifications.
Again, I am hardly an expert but the stadium here is like every other newer minor league A and AA park I've been to,
a AAA park is like what they have in richmond va, and our park is nothing like that
Quotea AAA park is like what they have in richmond va, and our park is nothing like that
You're right. The Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville is much nicer.
Quote from: apvbguy on September 03, 2008, 04:17:47 PM
Quote from: adamh0903 on September 03, 2008, 12:23:46 PM
Avg attendance of all MiLB and Independent Teams over the past 2 years
2007 avg attendance
43. Jacksonville Suns (SL) 5,739
2006 avg attendance
35. Jacksonville Suns (SL) 5,869
I am hardly an expert, but the few game that I've been to did not have 5k people there, maybe they sold 5k tickets but their rear ends were not in the seats. Ticket sales are a part of a team's income but they'd rather have bodies in the stands than people just buying seats. empty seats do not buy beer and hot dogs and whatever, and that's the profit center
The suns still count actual attendance. So this figure is actual butts in seats. The NFL has gone to "tickets distributed" but MiLB still counts actual bodies
The suns would draw 7-8k on thursday nights for "Thursday Throwdown-Buds for a Buck"
Quote from: cline on September 03, 2008, 04:31:16 PM
Quotea AAA park is like what they have in richmond va, and our park is nothing like that
You're right. The Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville is much nicer.
that could be, but I thought we were discussing seating capacity.
Quotethat could be, but I thought we were discussing seating capacity.
Richmond: 12,000
Jacksonville: 11,000
Jacksonville's park is large enough to support a AAA team.
Quote from: adamh0903 on September 03, 2008, 04:39:34 PM
Quote from: apvbguy on September 03, 2008, 04:17:47 PM
Quote from: adamh0903 on September 03, 2008, 12:23:46 PM
Avg attendance of all MiLB and Independent Teams over the past 2 years
2007 avg attendance
43. Jacksonville Suns (SL) 5,739
2006 avg attendance
35. Jacksonville Suns (SL) 5,869
I am hardly an expert, but the few game that I've been to did not have 5k people there, maybe they sold 5k tickets but their rear ends were not in the seats. Ticket sales are a part of a team's income but they'd rather have bodies in the stands than people just buying seats. empty seats do not buy beer and hot dogs and whatever, and that's the profit center
The suns still count actual attendance. So this figure is actual butts in seats. The NFL has gone to "tickets distributed" but MiLB still counts actual bodies
The suns would draw 7-8k on thursday nights for "Thursday Throwdown-Buds for a Buck"
wouldn't that be a full house? Like I've noted, very unscientifically I might add, I've never seen a crowd that even came close to 5k people there, but that really doesn't mean anything.
The real point is that JAX doesn't seem to be a real hot bed for sports unless UF or GA are playing football, regardless of the level of baseball team we have here, there isn't too much upside potential for more fans to attend games.
I do agree that JAX should have a AAA team but what we want isn't always realistic.
I think Jacksonville is clearly not a basketball town. We are football and baseball oriented like the rest of the South (excluding North Carolina and Kentucky of course). So, I agree we need to focus on retaining the Jags first. Keep buying tickets and attending the games.
Secondly, we should focus on improving the Gator Bowl and making it into one of the top tier bowls (i.e. BCS).
Thirdly, we should focus on organic growth with out baseball team. I think the move to AAA is fine but ultimately I think the next step would be MLB within the next 20 years. Once we hit 1.6 to 1.8 million, this should start being our next goal IMO. There is also no reason we could not leapfrog from AA to MLB given the proper size. I think Phoenix did that.
The current configuration for the Jacksonville Suns will seat 11k
6k in stadium chairs the rest in Outfield bleachers, the burm and 12 skyboxes and 2 party decks
QuoteI've never seen a crowd that even came close to 5k people there, but that really doesn't mean anything.
The real point is that JAX doesn't seem to be a real hot bed for sports unless UF or GA are playing football, regardless of the level of baseball team we have here, there isn't too much upside potential for more fans to attend games.
I do agree that JAX should have a AAA team but what we want isn't always realistic.
I'm not sure what days you've been to games but like adamh0903 said, the Thursday night games regularly draw a large crowd as do the weekend homestands.
As for a AAA team not being realistic, I disagree. There are currently AAA teams that draw less than the Suns do (such as the Las Vegas 51s and the New Orleans Zephyrs).
QuoteSo, I agree we need to focus on retaining the Jags first. Keep buying tickets and attending the games.
Agreed RG, can't wait for the first home game!
We lost the ACC championship Baseball Games, so I think exhibition games or other special games are a good move for the city. Games like the Orlando v Miami game and It would be nice to get some Rays games here...The Baseball Grounds would still draw more fans then Tropicana field in Tampa does.
Quote from: adamh0903 on September 03, 2008, 05:23:04 PM
We lost the ACC championship Baseball Games, so I think exhibition games or other special games are a good move for the city. Games like the Orlando v Miami game and It would be nice to get some Rays games here...The Baseball Grounds would still draw more fans then Tropicana field in Tampa does.
they would draw very well here for a few games but an 81 game season is another thing. hey, I hate to sound so negative, but from what I've seen of the sports scene here, it isn't too impressive
Quote from: adamh0903 on September 03, 2008, 05:23:04 PM
We lost the ACC championship Baseball Games, so I think exhibition games or other special games are a good move for the city. Games like the Orlando v Miami game and It would be nice to get some Rays games here...The Baseball Grounds would still draw more fans then Tropicana field in Tampa does.
I think the ACC is only temporarily leaving Jax for their baseball tournament. In 2006. Boston was selected to host it in 2009 but just recently said they couldn't due to a "scheduling conflict". The Bragans and the city of Jacksonville would gladly have hosted it again but the Red Sox waited so long to tell the ACC about the conflict that it may nearly be impossible for logistical reasons. It will likely be played somewhere in North Carolina now. Jacksonville has bent over backwards to host and has done a good job. I suspect if Boston actually hosts in 2010, it will be back in Jacksonville in 2011 and beyond.
Regarding the ACC baseball tournament.
"Jacksonville has the four highest attended tournaments in league history, capped by the 2006 record mark of 73,251."
Where we are missing the boat, is an idea out in left field. Phil Fretz of the TU and I have worked on this angle for some time, and I'm hoping he's going to do a piece on it soon.
We were the HOME, the originator, the base, the conception of the NEGRO LEAGUES. Fine baseball in anyones book, including perhaps one of the greatest players of all time, right here in Jacksonville. The cool thing is that it's all mixed up with names and faces of our past. Philip Randolph was a local attorney that organized the Pullman Car Porters into the first African-American labor Union. After years and years of the porters having an informal society of which both Randolph and the King of England were members: "The International Society For the Prevention of Calling Pullman Car Porters George". (uh, to the non-history types, that would be as in KING GEORGE of ENGLAND, or like slaves of GEORGE PULLMAN, that bought the sleeping car designs and operations from my family). Meanwhile down at the Union Station the forerunner of todays "SKY CAPS" were called "RED CAPS." Enter the TIMES-UNION that thought it would be cool to host major league baseball with a twist, so they bankrolled the first Negro League. THE SOUTHERN LEAGUE OF PROFESSIONAL BASEBALLERS. So anyway we have thus a complex tapestry of names, businesses and faces, woven around local baseball. Far more then our football heritage.
Taken to the next level, WHAT-IF (and Phil, this is where you and the TU come in again), we bankrolled a REAL and world class museum and hall of fame for the League? What if that same museum and hall were next to our baseball grounds? What if, we put out a call for "NEGRO LEAGUE PRIDE" for pre/post or mid season professional African-American ALL-STARS to play an AL or NL team in our park.
They take the field... basic black and proud.... Uniforms in cream with red trim, on every head both on the field and the stands a Jacksonville RED CAP! Bases loaded score 1-0 Yankees, Jacksonville's Alonzo Mitchell is up to bat... batter...batter... CRACK, and it's a long fly over the center field wall... Fireworks light the night sky and Jacksonville, Black and White are on their feet cheering and singing "Take Me Out To The Ball Game"...
Alonzo, this one is for you, SIR!
OCKLAWAHA
actually a negro league hall of fame make good sense and should be pursued. Would be much more interesting than the world golf hall of fame.
Quote from: civil42806 on September 03, 2008, 10:42:22 PM
actually a negro league hall of fame make good sense and should be pursued. Would be much more interesting than the world golf hall of fame.
maybe golf isn't your cup of tea, but why put down something other people find very interesting to bolster an idea you like?
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on September 03, 2008, 04:28:42 AM
the Suns games look like there pretty empty as well. Jax has a long way to go.
Wanna see empty? Try Turner Field
Quote from: copperfiend on September 03, 2008, 11:55:48 AM
Quote from: apvbguy on September 03, 2008, 11:15:29 AM
Quote from: copperfiend on September 03, 2008, 11:06:12 AM
Jacksonville could support a AAA team. But there are only 30 AAA franchises in the country to go around. And I remember reading quotes from the Bragans that didn't make it seem like they were very interested in owning a AAA team.
the ownership of the Suns don't want a AAA team because the costs of a AAA team are higher and JAX cannot sustain the level of support necessary to attract and keep a AAA viable here.
How do you figure they couldn't?
The Suns outsell some of the AAA teams and the Bragan Grounds is the same size as a lot of AAA ballparks. If you ask me AA players are better than AAA players. AA is were all the prospects are. So both have their pros and cons. I do agree They should get on TV and it would be easy...There are like 5 or 6 local/comcast channels they could put their product on. I know channel 7 (i think is not PBS) used to have local shows all the time on it.
QuoteWanna see empty? Try Turner Field
Wanna see really empty? Try any Marlins home game.
Quote from: cline on September 04, 2008, 08:33:10 AM
QuoteWanna see empty? Try Turner Field
Wanna see really empty? Try any Marlins home game.
600 fans for yesterdays marlins home game against the braves...600
Quote600 fans for yesterdays marlins home game against the braves...600
The Marlins should just go ahead and move up here to Jacksonville. Its not like anyone would miss them down there and I'm pretty confident we can get more than 600 people in the stands.
If they can't make it in South Florida, they'll fail in a region 1/5 the size that already struggles to support the one team it does have. 600 is insane, but things should improve when the new park is built just outside of downtown Miami. Imagine driving from Downtown Jax to Hastings to attend a mid day ballgame in the middle of a work week? That's basically whats happening at Dolphin Stadium.
Quotebut things should improve when the new park is built just outside of downtown Miami
That's not a done deal yet. It is still going through the courts.
Much like selfish ownership nearly killed support for Hornets basketball in Charlotte, the Marlins ownership deserve a fair amount of blame for driving fans away from the team. Fans were rewarded for their incredible support in 1997 by dismantling the team immediately after they won the World Series. That was just a knife in the heart.
Further, the Marlins and Devil Rays easily have the two worst baseball stadiums in the entire league. Attending a baseball game isn't just about the actual play on the field, but the overall experience of going "out to the ball game." I'm actually shocked that even 600 people would make that commute out to the Marlins stadium. It doesn't feel like a true baseball park at all. The Rays stadium is actually even worse. I'd go as far as to call it the worst stadium in MLB history. I have a hard time even watching games there on TV. It's not like support isn't there for the Rays in Tampa. Television ratings for their games are the highest in team history. It's a sorry excuse for a ballpark that's actually holding them back.
I guarantee that if you built beautiful, true baseball parks for each team, attendance numbers would absolutely skyrocket, especially in Tampa/St. Pete.
Quote from: cline on September 04, 2008, 08:33:10 AM
QuoteWanna see empty? Try Turner Field
Wanna see really empty? Try any Marlins home game.
I can't argue with that one! Miami sports fans are the worst! The Heat, Dolphins, Marlins & Hurricanes don't have real fans.
Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2008, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: cline on September 04, 2008, 08:33:10 AM
QuoteWanna see empty? Try Turner Field
Wanna see really empty? Try any Marlins home game.
I can't argue with that one! Miami sports fans are the worst! The Heat, Dolphins, Marlins & Hurricanes don't have real fans.
what are the demographics of the region?
I haven't been down there in 30 years but my view of the Miami area is that there are many new immigrants from the islands and S america and a lot of retired NE xplants, not exactly a good fan base for expensive pro teams. Maybe a MLS team would do well with that demographic.
The Dolphs seem to draw fairly well but they only play about 10 games a season and people will travel further for an NFL game.
I agree a team like the Marlins could generate some interest in other parts of FLA. Maybe they should consider something unique, they could play 1/3 of their schedule in Miami 1/3 in or near Olrlando and 1/3 uo here in NE FLA. the Marlins couldn't do worse drawing fans with a schedule like that than they are now.
600 total for yesterday's early game featuring the Marlins & Braves in Miami.......................
So....does someone want to start a baseball thread? ;)
Quote from: apvbguy on September 04, 2008, 01:02:02 PM
Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2008, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: cline on September 04, 2008, 08:33:10 AM
QuoteWanna see empty? Try Turner Field
Wanna see really empty? Try any Marlins home game.
I can't argue with that one! Miami sports fans are the worst! The Heat, Dolphins, Marlins & Hurricanes don't have real fans.
what are the demographics of the region?
I haven't been down there in 30 years but my view of the Miami area is that there are many new immigrants from the islands and S america and a lot of retired NE xplants, not exactly a good fan base for expensive pro teams. Maybe a MLS team would do well with that demographic.
The Dolphs seem to draw fairly well but they only play about 10 games a season and people will travel further for an NFL game.
I agree a team like the Marlins could generate some interest in other parts of FLA. Maybe they should consider something unique, they could play 1/3 of their schedule in Miami 1/3 in or near Olrlando and 1/3 uo here in NE FLA. the Marlins couldn't do worse drawing fans with a schedule like that than they are now.
Careful, a certain angry poster may become upset if you question the pro sport loyalty of hispanics despite all the evidence.
In any event, even little old Jacksonville could beat 600 people per game. That is an absolute joke!
I've heard that rotation idea for the Marlins before. After all, they are FLORIDA's team. I don't think it's feasible for a few reasons, though.
As for Jax outdoing yesterday's attendance in Miami...just remember there were officially about 11,200 tickets sold for the game. People just didn't show up. Would we sell 11 thousand tickets on a bad day?
Quote from: RiversideGator on September 04, 2008, 06:36:47 PM
Quote from: apvbguy on September 04, 2008, 01:02:02 PM
Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2008, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: cline on September 04, 2008, 08:33:10 AM
QuoteWanna see empty? Try Turner Field
Wanna see really empty? Try any Marlins home game.
I can't argue with that one! Miami sports fans are the worst! The Heat, Dolphins, Marlins & Hurricanes don't have real fans.
what are the demographics of the region?
I haven't been down there in 30 years but my view of the Miami area is that there are many new immigrants from the islands and S america and a lot of retired NE xplants, not exactly a good fan base for expensive pro teams. Maybe a MLS team would do well with that demographic.
The Dolphs seem to draw fairly well but they only play about 10 games a season and people will travel further for an NFL game.
I agree a team like the Marlins could generate some interest in other parts of FLA. Maybe they should consider something unique, they could play 1/3 of their schedule in Miami 1/3 in or near Olrlando and 1/3 uo here in NE FLA. the Marlins couldn't do worse drawing fans with a schedule like that than they are now.
Careful, a certain angry poster may become upset if you question the pro sport loyalty of hispanics despite all the evidence.
In any event, even little old Jacksonville could beat 600 people per game. That is an absolute joke!
Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2008, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: cline on September 04, 2008, 08:33:10 AM
QuoteWanna see empty? Try Turner Field
Wanna see really empty? Try any Marlins home game.
I can't argue with that one! Miami sports fans are the worst! The Heat, Dolphins, Marlins & Hurricanes don't have real fans.
I'm a real fan. I'm just on the wrong side of the state when it comes to sports.
QuoteCareful, a certain angry poster may become upset if you question the pro sport loyalty of hispanics despite all the evidence.
It is interesting to me Riverside as I think it's more economic then ethnic. Being dual nationals, I've seen Colombia fill stadium after stadium not unlike our own Metropolitan in size and pack in huge crowds for Futball.
Yet in the days of the NASL in the USA, Los Angeles, the largest TV market, and largest hispanic market in the nation, and 2nd largest market in the NASL only drew 2,000 for their games. Not enough to pay the light bill!
As a newbie back in my home country, we ate in a nice Colombian restaurant in Coral Springs. A 30 something waiter, VERY PROPER, kept looking at us. Finally my wife says don't I know you? In broken English he said something like "You Live Colombia?" Then it hit me! OH MY GOD! DIOS MIO! EL HEFE DE BANCO COLOMBIA IN MEDELLIN...was waiting our table. New imigrants must pay their dues, a blade that cuts both ways, I know doctors, lawyers and bankers doing BK type work just to get started here. Likewise I know a 100 gringos on the lamb because they couldn't work in Colombia if they wanted to...
Sometimes borders SUCK. And they can suck the life out of people of any culture... While I have my Medellin Futball house shoes, I never made it to a game either! Just too damn busy trying to be a 6' foot tall 280 pound, light haired friend and citizen in a land of 4.5 foot tall, 98 pound men and women. Certainly something to be said for the culture part too, but mostly its economics. OCKLAWAHA
DEO VINDICE!
Quote from: thelakelander on September 04, 2008, 10:26:03 PM
Quote from: Coolyfett on September 04, 2008, 12:10:34 PM
Quote from: cline on September 04, 2008, 08:33:10 AM
QuoteWanna see empty? Try Turner Field
Wanna see really empty? Try any Marlins home game.
I can't argue with that one! Miami sports fans are the worst! The Heat, Dolphins, Marlins & Hurricanes don't have real fans.
I'm a real fan. I'm just on the wrong side of the state when it comes to sports.
And when it comes to the Dolphins, you are not alone. They were the dominant team in the state until the late 90's when the Jags started playing and the Bucs became competitive. There are Dolphins fans all over the state. They just all can't drive to Miami for the games.