Salvaging The Big Idea I: Kids Kampus & Flex Space
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/great_fire/DCP_8765.jpg)
A year ago, the Big Idea was publicly announced and went down with a big thud in the eyes of most urban oriented downtown advocates. Although the plan presented was pretty horrible in terms of urban integration and unrealistic implementation, many of the basic concepts, such as creating flex-space and revitalizing Friendship Fountain area, are actually valid concerns. In this installment, Metro Jacksonville will attempt to show how we can incorporate flex greenspace within the existing urban landscape.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/379
I don't know what stadium complex is featured in the aerial photos posted above, but it is certainly not Jacksonville.
How are the baseball ground on the opposite side of the arena? Where is the retention pond and the news station building?
Where is the attention to detail?
It's definately ours. The arena, baseball grounds, retention ponds and all are present. In fact, the aerial was taken from www.COJ.net.
I apologize - I know see what happened. Veterans Memorial Arena is mis-labeled and threw off my whole compass. It's actually the building the the left of the baseball grounds, partially cropped off the page.
That IS the Veteran's Memorial. When the coliseum was demolished, they left the wall and turned it into a park.
Yes, that's the isolated Veteran's Memorial....Wall. The arena was never labled.
This link to DVI's site, will take you to a labled map showing the existing amenities in the Sport's District.
http://www.downtownjacksonville.org/content/?page_id=42#
Despite the comments of the geographically challenged above, this was a great look at what the sports complex could be, with some vision.
Excellent article. The simplicity of it is astonishing. Stack the parking and use the leftovers for "flex space". Let's hope the Mayor will take some of the ideas to the drawing board and see how they can be implemented.
You'd meet a lot of resistance from fans with this plan. A parking garage would destroy the tailgating culture at football games.
Unfortunately, even with this plan, there would still be massive parking lots left all over the area for tailgaters. Also, the actual flex "green" space itself could be designed to be a tailgator's paradise on Sundays and a vibrant park, the rest of the year. Nevertheless, there's a strong argument to be made that downtown (including the Sport's District) should be designed for everyday use and not only for special events that happen a few times a year, while the tumbleweed blows around for the remaining months.
The reason people "tailgate" is because of the simple fact that there is absolutely nothing else to do around the stadium while you are waiting for the game to start. I think the experience would be improved by replacing the tailgates with restaurants, bars, and other attractions. Hanging out in a parking lot really isn't all that great. It's just a makeshift substitute for real entertainment.
You are probably right though Fred. People that don't fully understand the vision would oppose it.
The Arena District in Columbus, OH is an incredibly efficient and well-designed area. The only downside to the area is the weather.
The proposed parking garage sits right on top of where the Jaguars players, coaches and execs park. It is a gated lot not available to the public.
This must be new, because it wasn't gated when the pictures were taken a few weeks ago. Nevertheless, that area is surface parking lot galore. There's multiple options available for going vertical with a parking garage in the sports district. Don't get caught up in the graphic, look at the concept.
The most important aspect of this entire article is using the massive lot, just north of Kids Kampus for flex green space. Now that's just as realistic as picking up Kids Kampus, floating it downriver and jamming it into Friendship Fountain, which is the plan currently on the table.
I can't imagine it would be very difficult to relocate where the Jaguars players park. That's not a deal breaker in the least. It's not even worth mentioning actually.
It is actually in the aerial - it is just VERY hard to see.
This lot is used everyday - the players are at the stadium even in the offseason at least a couple times a week for most of the year. Most teams have a practice facility away from their stadium, but the Jaguars have their entire operation in the stadium, which is rare. In addition, more than half of that lot is Jaguars employees (not players), that work a regular business week.
Nevertheless, this can be solved very easily - give them a private portion of the garage. Now, they have prime COVERED parking, and their cars won't be as hot when they leave practive.
This is an example of why most football stadiums are built in the suburbs. Washington, New York, Dallas, Miami, Arizona. Rarely is a football stadium built right in the core. If it is, it is normally a dome. You need acres of surface parking for an NFL football stadium. People want to tailgate. A few bars and restaurants won't change that. There are a lot of people who won't park in the garage if it were built that close. And how would this plan affect the Ga-Fla game or potential Super Bowls?
The existing garages hold about 1500 people. A new garage on that site would hold maybe 4000 cars. Out of a stadium that holds 70,000 people, I'm sure we can find 6,000 that don't want to tailgate.
By the way many new stadiums ARE being built in the core. Yes, they are domes, but what does that matter. It's still a building that holds 70,000 people. Detroit has managed to do it, and so has Cleveland, and the Jets new stadium was to be built in Manhattan (that proposal fell through, but it falling through had nothing to do with parking issues).
Universal Studios in Orlando replaced all of their surface parking with garage parking. Although a new garage at the stadium wouldn't need to be as large unless you were trying to eliminate surface parking completely, it is a good example of a large scale, high volume garage. The entrance to it is at least 4 lanes wide.
There are plenty of creative solutions to these kinds of problems, as shown above. People need to stop viewing these small issues as roadblocks. These are the kinds of ideas that make cities better.
They turned it into Universal CityWalk. All of that land was previously surface parking lots, including the hotels and waterway.
What's wrong with firing up a grill in a park with open green space on game day? Some would venture to say, a nice urban park next in the stadium district would enhance the tailgating atmosphere. With the land saved, it could be used for the development of complementing things like sports bars and watering holes that cater to the events taking place in the area. Then it would be possible for spectors to stay around and enjoy the immediate environment instead of being forced back to I-95 by the JSO.
For the rest of the year, that very same space could be used for a host of events like family reunions, outdoor concerts, movies, festivals, picnics and a central gathering spot for school field trips for children visiting Kids Kampus and other amenities in the area. It doesn't get any more "family friendly" than that.
Normally I agree with most things posted on this site. I just don't see how this one is realistic. And I still wonder what affect this would have on the Ga-Fla game and future Super Bowls.
Actually, this would benefit future super bowls. One of the things that the Mayor has always emphasized was the need for "flex-space". This accomplishes that. In addition, this benefits Florida-Georgia, since it adds parking to the area.
It was mentioned above that this area could be parking on gamedays. The point is that other days it could be used for other things instead of an empty parking lot.
Doesn't Metro Park itself classify as Flex Space already. Other than the Super Bowl, when was a large amount of "Flex Space' required? I think the need for a massive flex space is non-existant, just like closing off the Main Street Bridge for pedestrians only. It was a one time situation being extropolated to a permanet situation.
Also, we need to concentrate on getting nightlife and such in the core of DT first, before we worry about the Sports district. If we had it to do all over , the entire Sports District would be completely different, but un-muddling it will be far more expensive than creating the same thing (nightlife/entertainment district) in the core proper.
Good argument. Metropolitan Park is definately something that's not fully ultilized and could be retrofitted to possibly fulfill the Mayor's flex space demands. With that being said, it still wouldn't hurt to eventually rid ourselves of a few of the stadium district's surface lots by issuing RFPs for their development. Right now, it's just wasteland which affects the ultimate potential of what's already there.
Anyway, going back to Michael-Lee's quote about most NFL stadiums being located in the far out suburbs, the list of urban stadiums is rapidly growing. Cities with NFL stadiums already located close to downtown or in it, include the following:
Cleveland
Detroit
Seattle
Indianapolis
Minneapolis
New Orleans
Atlanta
St. Louis
Pittsburgh
Charlotte
Jacksonville
Chicago
Baltimore
Also a good portion of those stadiums are outdoor and don't have an abundance of surface lots surrounding them. How do their fans tailgate?
Seattle has an awesome train that picks people up in the suburbs and drops them off a block from the stadium.
The hidden agenda has not yet come out. The Mayor wants the 10 acres at Kids Kampus for development by one of his campain contributers. The only way to passify the public was to say he was moving it over to Friendship Fountain. In reality there would be no movement, the park would be demolished and sold off to a developer friend.
If you wait to see the Friendship Fountain article you'll see he wants to demolish it as well. The fountain is maintained like every other park we have, so it get no maintenance. Two of the three pumps are broken and what was estimated as a repair cost of $80,000 has given our Mayor the excuse to remove it and replace it for his book club members.....what a city, what a Mayor....Four more years of mismanagement!
Provocative concept and interesting dialogue. it might be worth considering a couple of additional thoughts - to strengthen the public riverfront open space connection, and appropriate management of garages to accomodate game day traffic.
The flex-space in the concept would be stronger if a more acute connection from the flex-space to the Riverfront Metropolitan Park & Kids Kampus properties were made. The elevated roadway acts as a barrier, and is counter-productive to such a connection - and currently limits the potential of these sites as distinguished, meaningful and accessible public open spaces. Removing this barrier would enhance this link between stadium activity/flex space and riverfront public open space, and place more (positive) traffic, energy, and life into the streets of the urban grid rather than seeing it pass by overhead.
Positive development potential within this general concept has the potential to be greatly enhanced.
Incidentally, dedicated parking garages for football stadiums aren't ideal in that unlike at theme parks or other urban destinations, they don't accommodate the same-time mass-exodus characteristics of a football crowd. It's a consideration which can be reasonably mitigated if properly managed.
Good discussion.
If Told You So is correct and there is a hidden agenda that dictates that Kids Kampus be moved, there may be a hitch. In Delaney's first term, he proposed putting an amplitheater in Metro Park. Because federal funds had been used to build the park there was some problem with doing that. Seems like the Feds either had to be reimbursed or the park space had to be replaced. Anyway, it contributed to the death of that idea (though primarily it was due to the opposition from St. Nicholas). Kids Kampus may be a separate parcel (ie developed later) that is not restricted in that way, but it might be worth looking into.
Sorry to bring this up again, but to go back to what michael lee said, that parking lot is hardly the tailgate center of downtown. that particular lot doesnt hold a candle to the fairgrounds and all the grass/dirt lots surrounding the stadium. i frequent jags game and rarely do i see many people tailgating in that lot...besides, maybe they could tailgate on the roof of the parking garage :). as dumb as that sounds it would take up the exact amount of space as normal...who knows, maybe could be for tailgaters only...:)
I like the concept and simply taking away 1 lot for a parking ramp is not going to ruin tailgating in the least. In fact, it may improve it. Not everyone wants to tailgate and those who do would still have plenty of room.
Discussing bars/restaurants, Denver has an excellent area where they revitalized a very bad part of town and turned it into a crown jewel. The only problem I see with Jax duplicating that is that I am not sure that on any given night the bars/restaurants would draw a large enough crowd to be sustainable long term. I think there is potential for a very vibrant night life/sports district in Jax but I think we are looking further down the road, maybe 5-10 years, when all the condo's etc. get built. I certainly hope something can be done to improve down town, as it stands know, you will not catch me down there after dark.
Just my thoughts, please comment, I am new to Jax and maybe do not see everything everyone else does.
First, Welcome to Jacksonville
Second, despite the perception, there are things to do in downtown at night, particulary Friday and Saturday. On East Bay St. Mark's, Dive Bar (which it isn't) and TSI all draw large crowds. You also have London Bridge, Burrito Gallery, and Boomtown open at night as well. These are all outside the landing.
And finally, I agree that it will take years just to get back to where downtown was in 1970, which is awful