Metro Jacksonville

Considering the Skyway, is not now, or ever will be a "go everywhere" system, it will always have to be helped along in the downtown or near downtown core of the city by other transit vehicles. From the following list, please choose the option you are more likely to ride:

Option ONE: The Famous Diesel powered, "JTA TROLLEY"
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/BusJTAuglyFiingTrolley.jpg)



Option Two: The "VINTAGE BUS" (cng, lng or Induction battery electric)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/Berlin_vintage_bus.jpg)


Option Three: The diesel powered, JTA "POTATO CHIP TRUCK" in the buff.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/FORSALE003.jpg)


Option Four: The Chattanooga Style battery electric shuttle, induction charged at each stop for continious running.
(http://www.hiddencity.org/div/ws/images/AVS22.02.jpg)


Option Five: The classic double overhead wire - electric "TROLLEY BUS" with fixed routes, can be powered from garbage, wind, solar etc..
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/12/17957771_1e73810ea5.jpg)

Any comments? Quesitons? Suggestions?  

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, could you include the environmental impact of each one?  It would help me make a more informed decision.  Thanks.

What? No Streetcar?

Quote from: brainstormer on August 29, 2008, 06:13:10 AM
Ock, could you include the environmental impact of each one?  It would help me make a more informed decision.  Thanks.

more importantly what are the costs of each type of service

Where's the streetcar???

I don't want any of them, I want streetcars!

Allow me to explain a bit:

I strongly suspect (due to recently meeting with the JTA director and staff) that they'll be interested in this.

This poll is intended to reflect the current "so-called-Trolleys" downtown. Even with a Streetcar, Commuter Rail and an expanded Skyway, ANY metro as large as Jacksonville is going to still have plenty of smaller market corridors where those more expensive models don't fit in. Also consider a criss-crossing link system that connects stadium-streetcar/5-points-skyway/Commuter Rail-San Marco etc... They'll always be room for a rather fixed route shuttle system.

Enviromental impacts, even the JTA-TROLLEY can be ordered with CNG or LNG engines, other options on ALL OF THE ABOVE are clean, electric, battery or overhead wire. So consider the enviromental impact nearly nil.
I say this because except for battery electric/induction charged (meaning no wires), the vehicles whatever we chose can run off of waste gas from garbage and thus burn off Methane, a dangerous greenhouse gas that is rendered impotent in damage when burned. Thus we earn carbon credits, we don't use them and they can be sold for cash.

For the purpose of this poll:

All vehicles cost about the same in real dollars.

O&M costs on the electric versions are cheaper, and they have longer service life.
Only option one and three would NOT have an electric power option.
Only option five requires any investment in plant, but again, it is long lived and fixed which often attracts development.

VEHICLES - ABOUT EQUAL IN COST
ENVIROMENTAL - ABOUT EQUAL, except for diesel versions which produce carbon and sulfur.

COME ON GUYS AND VOTE! WE'LL WORK ON STREETCARS LATER!

OCKLAWAHA  

I just voted Ock, and I chose the electric induction shuttle.  If we want this mode of downtown transportation to be more flexible I feel we should refrain from something that needs overhead wires.  Overhead wires make it seem less flexible and more stationary, am I correct?  For example, I'm thinking of our existing trolley routes.  Adjustments have to be made for things like road construction and new development that might require a new stop/destination.  I like the idea of electric because anything that doesn't blow exhaust will only help the core's goal of more pedestrian friendly streets.

OK, thanks for the explanation.  (Or is that: Ock, thanks for ...)
Question - do the rubber-tire trolley-buses (#5) have the ability to go "off the wire" and operate just like a regular bus?  And if so, what do they run on when not taking power from the overhead wires?  Also, could the same overhead wires power a streetcar?

You are susposed to be allowed to change your votes too, don't know how it works though!

Quote

QuoteI just voted Ock, and I chose the electric induction shuttle.  If we want this mode of downtown transportation to be more flexible I feel we should refrain from something that needs overhead wires.  Overhead wires make it seem less flexible and more stationary, am I correct?  For example, I'm thinking of our existing trolley routes.  Adjustments have to be made for things like road construction and new development that might require a new stop/destination.  I like the idea of electric because anything that doesn't blow exhaust will only help the core's goal of more pedestrian friendly streets.

OK, thanks for the explanation.  (Or is that: Ock, thanks for ...)
Question - do the rubber-tire trolley-buses (#5) have the ability to go "off the wire" and operate just like a regular bus?  And if so, what do they run on when not taking power from the overhead wires?  Also, could the same overhead wires power a streetcar?

The electric shuttles are new on the scene but have ran many thousands of miles in theme parks without major trouble. The downside to non-fixed transit, is that it does NOT attract the big money corporate, hotel, retail, restaurant locations that fixed routes do.

Now, for Charles, some of the trolley buses have been delivered with small shuttle engines as back up power. But most are pure electric. They need two wires where streetcars only need one, reason? You can't ground current through rubber tires, so they have +/- wires. The reach of the poles is flexible and they CAN bypass a stalled vehicle stuck at curbside etc.  Otherwise unless we get into some more expensive options I'd consider the electrics dead when off the wire. On the plus side there are about 500 less movings parts to breakdown in an electric motor so relibility is amazing.

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteWhere's the streetcar???

QuoteI don't want any of them, I want streetcars!

JUST rubber tires this time... consider "as-if" the transit streetcar, skyway or Commuter Rail were already running, of if they failed, which should we add?  Either way we are going to have to have downtown and neighborhood shuttles.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 31, 2008, 12:01:08 AM
You are susposed to be allowed to change your votes too, don't know how it works though! 

If you're on the same computer, just click "Remove Vote" and then vote again!

COME ON IN Y'ALL, only 5 days left to let your opinion be known. We have broken them down, explained them and nobody gets their name or position published (so even JTA guys can vote). Just pick a rubber tired vehicle and choose the one YOU would ride in.

Come to think of it, a trip around town in the back of the potato chip truck wouldn't be all bad...Wonder if it comes with dip??? munchies!

OCKLAWAHA

I want light rail (streetcar/tram) that can also use the skyway (a double system!)
I used to live in Rotterdam, The Netherlands. I never used the bussystem but I used the tram everyday. Ridership of the light rail exceeded that of the bussystem 10-fold !!

Why can't we ask a company like Siemens to do an assesment of the possibilities?

Given those choices, I'd like the Trolly Bus.  Fixed routes will do so much more to spawn economic growth.

Quote from: Beloki on September 02, 2008, 10:58:20 AM
I want light rail (streetcar/tram) that can also use the skyway (a double system!)
I used to live in Rotterdam, The Netherlands. I never used the bussystem but I used the tram everyday. Ridership of the light rail exceeded that of the bussystem 10-fold !!

Why can't we ask a company like Siemens to do an assesment of the possibilities?

ask? Siemens like all companies are in business to make money, you can go hire them a consultant, but I would think their conclusions would be self serving.
There are many consulting firms out there that could be used and they would bring less bias to their conclusions.

one thing all the proponents of these transit schemes need reconcile is cost vs. rewards. In other words is investing is building a transit system viable from an economic standpoint? how many would it serve? where it would serve? I think we all can agree that that the current state of transit here in JAX is deficient but some of the ideas floating about are unfeasible.
Somethings I think are needed are long distance lines like a line serving the NAS JAX/17 corridor, a line from the beaches, a line to the airport and a line along the US 1 corridor. expansion of the skyway to feed users of these lines into the core, and of course expansion of the skyway to the sports complex. These coupled with park and ride stations would go a long way to easing congestion.
Other smaller, localized lines need to be fixed also, but can be possibly done with a beefed up bus system, lines to the san marco, 5 pt, avanodale and springfield areas are all vital, and maybe a streetcar/tram system could be viable on runs like these.
dreaming is fun and exciting, reality isn't as much fun, there are limited resources out there and how and where we use the monies available is very important.
Innovation is good but can we (JAX) afford to be the test model some unproven concepts? Let's get the biggest bang for our bucks and look at the best systems in use elsewhere and use them here.
Lastly for a large system to be viable it needs to be regional, JTA cannot be expected to provide leadership for such a system, a new regional transit agency should be created to create a viable system for the whole area.

Electric Trolley Bus gets my vote.

Although I do like the flexibility of a non-fixed option, like mentioned, resources are harder to come by in order to fund and sustain the operation.

I would LOVE to see some sort of high speed (relative, of course) option to the beaches.  It would be SO nice to be able to drive to San Marco then catch a ride to Atlantic Beach.  I seldomly frequent the beaches due to the traffic getting out there.

Quotedreaming is fun and exciting, reality isn't as much fun, there are limited resources out there and how and where we use the monies available is very important.
Innovation is good but can we (JAX) afford to be the test model some unproven concepts? Let's get the biggest bang for our bucks and look at the best systems in use elsewhere and use them here.
Lastly for a large system to be viable it needs to be regional, JTA cannot be expected to provide leadership for such a system, a new regional transit agency should be created to create a viable system for the whole area.

Don't think this is a dream. It will be shared with JTA's Director who is already cheering for change.

REGIONAL yes, but for the purpose of this survey, we are talking ONLY about DOWNTOWN and the surrounding area shuttles, Maybe a Beach shuttle or Regency-Town Center etc... but ONLY SHUTTLE type high frequency road traffic. Not quite the traffic stuff of streetcars or Commuter Rail but fast and frequent little downtown scoot services that tie the knot with the other modes as the become reality.

Think of these as what you'll catch AFTER the Skyway, or streetcar.  

OCKLAWAHA

Come on EVERYONE has an opinion. We can vote this here and now and it will be passed on to JTA. Amazing stuff so far. Lot's of comments and information on each vehicle and lot's of opportunity to ask if your confused. JUST VOTE.

OCKLAWAHA