Metro Jacksonville

Back by popular demand, the FINISH THE SKYWAY MAP...

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/BayHogan.jpg)
Where do we go from here?

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/FINISHEDSKYWAYIDEA.png)
Skyway lines in Blue, extensions shown in RED. Major bus/rail/streetcar interchanges in black.

Question, should the line go on to Jackson Square?
Question, the original plan called for a line to Shands, in light of the new Courthouse, would a new branch up through that area, LaVilla, and up Davis to Shands work? Commuter Rail West of I-95 and Skyway east, meeting behind Shands with bus and Streetcar?

What say you?

OCKLAWAHA

any way to get an enlarged image of that map?

Skyway should go no where further, its big, ugly, and too expensive.  Time to cut the citys losses.  Investigate trolleys please.  No more 12foot diameter pillars dominating the streets and the elevated trains th sightlines.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/JAXMAP-1.png)

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: civil42806 on August 26, 2008, 03:23:50 PM
Skyway should go no where further, its big, ugly, and too expensive.  Time to cut the citys losses.  Investigate trolleys please.  No more 12foot diameter pillars dominating the streets and the elevated trains th sightlines.

Yea keep transportation on the ground where it doesn't flood!

Extend all 3 legs and build a 4th leg to the sports complex!!

Uh people will wanting to be riding  trolleys or ground transportation during floors and tropical storms?  Was the people mover running during the storm?

It didnt run Sunday.

The criticism of the Skyway is the oft-repeated - goes nowhere. Implied in that is "it goes nowhere that is new".

Since Jackson Square would be a new, retail/housing mix, I could see a use for connecting it to the existing Skyway, thus linking it to the Library, Bay Street Station, Brooklyn Park.

But going east to the stadium? People seem content to take the trolley bus or walk.

Actually thats not my complaint, my complaint is 2.5 miles cost 184, 000, 000 dollars. Lets look at how the expansion will Go.

City will establish two departments initially, 1st the department of cost overun, 2nd the department of excuses and distraction.  These departments need to get started early to ensure they compliment each other. 

Then of course the department of planning is created they will design the actual course of the new lines.  This department consists of many subdepartments

  1.  subdepartment of screwing poor folks.  They will try to ensure that the route hits as many clusters of low income folks property.  After all these folks don't understand emminent domain and can't afford a lawyer.  The peasants.

  2.  Subdepartment of City fathers and high rollers.  there job is to examine the route and determine if it approaches any property that the city fathers and high rollers or there relatives own.  If so ensure that the route passes close enough so they can get a premium on there property.  After all they deserve it. Obviously this department and subdeparment of screwing poor folks have to interact to maximize their return

   3.  Subdepartment of Homeless needs and requirements.  They are there to ensure that there are enough nooks and cranies in the design for adequate sleeping urinating and crapping to support our community.
i
    4.  Subdepartment of pillar support location.  You job is to locate all pillars and support to ensure maximum inconvience with existing businesses and residents.  Just ask Friedmans jewlers downtown,  or wait you cant The pillar immediately in front of his entrance put the downtown store our of business.

    5.  Subdepartment of Station location.  Since this is going to be fixed elevated system, particularly important for those once every 40 year floods,  the placement of the fixed stations is critical, since once they are built you stuck with them.   Now you might think that it would be simple to see where people live and might want to go and build the station there.  If so you have no vision whatsoever.  First this department needs to work closely with Subdepartment of City fathers and high rollers.  These people may own land they want to develop, so you may have to relocate a station near them.  Now of course your an Urban Planner, people may think they know where the want to live shop and eat, but thats only because they don't have your degree and urbane sense, I bet most of them shop at wal-mart for gods sake.  So you need to ensure that the stations are located in a proper urban development setting, unless otherwise dictated by the subdepartment of city fathers and high rollers.  Heavy interaction with the department of excuses and distraction is highly recommended.

So now your system is built at a cost of probably 100,000,000 a mile or more.  You can now disband all your departments except for department of excuses and distraction, in fact a signifcant expansion of this department is recommended, a mayoral aide my be needed.

Now the subdepartment of thank you notes they are to send out picture postcard of the system to everyone in the US thanking them for there contribution, because the only way this is going to happen is with federal funds.

The department of excuses and distractions will have to kick in to explain why the ridership is 10% of the expected  and why in the world did you put a  station there?

The department of scheduling, ensure that the route is never running for special events on weekends and nights, if the event is not in the normal operating hours of the system.  What do people expect a system working when they want to use it.  Obviously none of them are operating the system so what would they know.

The department of future apologies, when our grandkids are blowing the damn thing up, this department will send them a note  "we thought it was a good idea at the time"

lol extend it to Riverside, Springfield & San Marco.

Quote from: rjp2008 on August 26, 2008, 06:47:45 PM

But going east to the stadium? People seem content to take the trolley bus or walk.

But ofcourse, given no other options.  I think should the skyway be extended to the stadium area it would fast become the busiest leg.  Not only would it be the favorite mode for Jag fans, but for other events held in the area throughout the year.  Also downtown workers would use it to get to parking during the week.  This would also provide major connectivity.  

QuoteI think should the skyway be extended to the stadium area it would fast become the busiest leg.

I also think this would probably be the case.  I think it would have a number of benefits, and may actually lead people to consider taking the Skyway to other places downtown or using JTA to get around Jacksonville.  I would love to see the Skyway expanded, but certainly understand why people have reservations due to its history and cost.

Does anyone else think the small cars would be a problem if the line were expanded to the stadium?  I realize they would only be packed for a hour or so before and after the game, but the capacity seems like it wouldn't meet the demand.

a single line from the convention center to the stadium would not be very effective in getting jaguar fans downtown to the stadium.  Investing that kind of money for 10 weekends doesn't seem that smart.  If you've watched the shuttle service at the convention center they move an amazing number of people very quickly.  Having basically an unlimited number of buses can move many more people than what a fixed tracked system could do.  Imagine getting out of a game and waiting for the people mover, speed is limited, number of cars are limited.  The only limiting factor for the buses is how fast they can load.  Atlantas Marta system has feeder lines from all over the city heading to the stadium not just one.

Quote from: Seraphs on August 26, 2008, 08:42:43 PM

Quote from: rjp2008 on August 26, 2008, 06:47:45 PM

But going east to the stadium? People seem content to take the trolley bus or walk.

But ofcourse, given no other options.  I think should the skyway be extended to the stadium area it would fast become the busiest leg.  Not only would it be the favorite mode for Jag fans, but for other events held in the area throughout the year.  Also downtown workers would use it to get to parking during the week.  This would also provide major connectivity. 

WOW!! Hey man there was this one guy named Coolyfett that said the exact same thing man. I don't know what ever happened to that dude. He was fucking genius. He used to say stuff like "Man the Skyway should extend to the East" This old school guy named Ock was the only dude that used to agree with poor Coolyfett. Man I miss that guy. I DISAGREE with you the Skyway SHOULDNT be built down Bay Street and end at the Sport Complex errr Stadium, Arena, Ballpark, Fairgrounds & Metro Park...not much going on there folks!!! DONT BUILD IT!!

I'll elaborate more on this tomorrow, since I have to go to bed, but after going on Ock's blog earlier this summer, I'm convinced that the Skyway should be extended to all of the destinations on the map...as long as the current monorail is upgraded to a larger set of cars to carry more people. In addition, extensions should be made to the airport and the convention center; unless another convention center closer to the core location is built.

Again, I'll elaborate more on this subject tomorrow, but if you have doubts, go to Ock's blog and watch the video that shows a typical ride on the train. That video convinced me...Skyway can be an awesome bridge to the future for mass transit in Jax.

Quote from: civil42806 on August 26, 2008, 08:52:18 PM
a single line from the convention center to the stadium would not be very effective in getting jaguar fans downtown to the stadium.  Investing that kind of money for 10 weekends doesn't seem that smart.  If you've watched the shuttle service at the convention center they move an amazing number of people very quickly.  Having basically an unlimited number of buses can move many more people than what a fixed tracked system could do.  Imagine getting out of a game and waiting for the people mover, speed is limited, number of cars are limited.  The only limiting factor for the buses is how fast they can load.  Atlantas Marta system has feeder lines from all over the city heading to the stadium not just one.

Im gonna take a swing at this.....

10 weekends? Why do some citizens(not just civil42806) act like the Jaguars is the ONLY thing that ever goes on in the Sports Complex?

Atlanta's Marta system is a great example man, since Im very familiar with the Atl Events Station. Ill break it down. If Jacksonville had a Sports Complex Station it would only have 2 feeders vs Atls 4 feeders. ATL just has the Georgia Dome, Phillips Arena, a Covention Center & Olympic Park at that stop. Where as Jacksonville has 5 major destinations. Atl would get more biz only because of the amount of train stations on the line, not because of the stop itself.

Back to Jax. The Shuttle bus cost 5 dollars to an from. Skyway is a dollar to an from, lets say they change the fare to 1 dollar 1 way... then its 2 dollars to & from Saves the fans 3 bux. All those Drivers Im sure would like to have their sunday off, You can tell by the way JTA does biz on sundays, plus Stephan Dares bus topic lol. If they had a choice theyd want to be off, let the robot (Skyway) do the work. Southsiders would go to Kings Ave/Jackson Square and Westsiders would go to the convention center. After the game guess what?? Big money for Marks, Dive Bar, TSI, Ivy Club and whatever else ends up there on Bay. Maybe even the Hemmng Plaza places may see the easy dollar signs with a direct connect. The Skyway would be a reason to hang downtown instead of going home. And this is just adding a east line NO Riverside or Springfield Station.

You say 10 weeks, I say 8 Jag games (i dont count preseason), plus the Suns weekend games (Suns draw well for AA, out of 30 AA teams Suns usually rank in the top 8), plus the concerts, plus the Fair, plus FL-GA weekend, plus the Metro Park events, plus all the people that work on Bay Street & around other Skyway Stations on the line, ...do you still see 10 weeks of service? Honestly Civil do you still see 10 weeks?

And the Brooklyn platform.

QuoteActually thats not my complaint, my complaint is 2.5 miles cost 184, 000, 000 dollars. Lets look at how the expansion will Go.

City will establish two departments initially, 1st the department of cost overun, 2nd the department of excuses and distraction.  These departments need to get started early to ensure they compliment each other. 

Then of course the department of planning is created they will design the actual course of the new lines.  This department consists of many subdepartments

  1.  subdepartment of screwing poor folks.  They will try to ensure that the route hits as many clusters of low income folks property.  After all these folks don't understand emminent domain and can't afford a lawyer.  The peasants.

Ooh, being a former long haired anti-establishment leaping gnome, do I detect a hint of class hate here? Or are you just pissed off because it's cheaper to build projects through rotting shotgun houses rather then Modis type buildings? I don't like building anything through anybodys home, but if it can't be helped and must be done for the greater good of the whole community. That sounds rough and hateful, but it a matter of fact that people have to go somewhere and the auto era seems to be crashing around us.  

Quote2.  Subdepartment of City fathers and high rollers.  there job is to examine the route and determine if it approaches any property that the city fathers and high rollers or there relatives own.  If so ensure that the route passes close enough so they can get a premium on there property.  After all they deserve it. Obviously this department and subdeparment of screwing poor folks have to interact to maximize their return

So is it the Skyway you hate, or is it anyone successful in their field? Could it be someone with education, degree, experience, long-term job security, someone that creates hundreds maybe thousands of jobs that others depend on is really who you are attacking? Why wouldn't you plan a transit system like the Skyway to pass the front door of something like Berkman or the Shipyards or St. James projects, of course you would. Not to do so would be irresponsible in the extreme. Would such a failure be cheered by you? Only you!

Quote3.  Subdepartment of Homeless needs and requirements.  They are there to ensure that there are enough nooks and cranies in the design for adequate sleeping urinating and crapping to support our community.

Frankly homeless parks are an idea that isn't untried. With some success on the west coast, a park design with restrooms, showers and "climbing culverts" functioned as a fun place by day, and a guarded sleeping quarters by night. There were rules, no booze, clean up after yourself, use the restroom, etc... And it worked like a charm, very few were ever expelled long term. They were thankful that someone at City Hall thought of them. I felt the same way.  

Quote4.  Subdepartment of pillar support location.  You job is to locate all pillars and support to ensure maximum inconvience with existing businesses and residents.  Just ask Friedmans jewlers downtown,  or wait you cant The pillar immediately in front of his entrance put the downtown store our of business.

Me thinks this a slight stretch, certainly the pillar could play into it, but downtown retail is too dead to bury with our cheap fill in the AM and empty in the early PM parking garages, and the punishing meters. We killed it, the Skyway certainly didn't, if anything, it might be a part of the reason for the Landing, Convention Center and the Omni. Track comes in pre-determined sections for economy, now we could spend another 30,000 or so for a few custom pieces to cover the entry to a downtown coffee shop, but wouldn't that come under department of spending like fools?  

Quote5.  Subdepartment of Station location.  Since this is going to be fixed elevated system, particularly important for those once every 40 year floods,  the placement of the fixed stations is critical, since once they are built you stuck with them.   Now you might think that it would be simple to see where people live and might want to go and build the station there.  If so you have no vision whatsoever.  First this department needs to work closely with Subdepartment of City fathers and high rollers.  These people may own land they want to develop, so you may have to relocate a station near them.  Now of course your an Urban Planner, people may think they know where the want to live shop and eat, but thats only because they don't have your degree and urbane sense, I bet most of them shop at wal-mart for gods sake.  So you need to ensure that the stations are located in a proper urban development setting, unless otherwise dictated by the subdepartment of city fathers and high rollers.  Heavy interaction with the department of excuses and distraction is highly recommended.

Amazing insight, you are exactly right, you build where the big developments and big crowds go. If we get a downtown highrise mall with a Saks 5Th or Nordstroms, then you build to it or through it. Just follow the crowds. Anything within 2-3 blocks is Skyway influenced development. Fixed systems more then double ridership over other systems, often with increases of 150% or more, so yes, you WANT a fixed system. Next, your occasional flood is not why it is elevated. Monorails by their nature cannot be crossed by streets at grade, keeping them in the air also works to keep them above the traffic and out of trouble. Their safety record world wide (and they've been around as long as railroads) is incredible.  

QuoteSo now your system is built at a cost of probably 100,000,000 a mile or more.  You can now disband all your departments except for department of excuses and distraction, in fact a signifcant expansion of this department is recommended, a mayoral aide my be needed.

The original system was a misguided "gift" from the government to 3 cities, Detroit, Jacksonville and Miami. Both of the other cities went on to finish their crippled systems, we reinvested to convert ours to monorail, to make it a bit more regional if the need ever came up. Translation: We planned ahead, amazing as that sounds. Miami went on to feed their system with metro-rail and tri-rail, Detroit built streetcars and corridor trains... we frankly dropped the ball as our politicians ran and hid from folks like yourself that refuse to think this process through.

QuoteNow the subdepartment of thank you notes they are to send out picture postcard of the system to everyone in the US thanking them for there contribution, because the only way this is going to happen is with federal funds.

The department of excuses and distractions will have to kick in to explain why the ridership is 10% of the expected  and why in the world did you put a  station there?

The department of scheduling, ensure that the route is never running for special events on weekends and nights, if the event is not in the normal operating hours of the system.  What do people expect a system working when they want to use it.  Obviously none of them are operating the system so what would they know.

The department of future apologies, when our grandkids are blowing the damn thing up, this department will send them a note  "we thought it was a good idea at the time"

These last three are "classic Jacksonville", but it has to stop. We can't get lower ridership out of expansion, modest as it would be on my map. Not running the system for special events, not buying the center cars (which we own the rights to - with stations built for 4-6 car sets). JTA employees need to be using the system, in fact system passes for every employee and family should be a perk. As for blowing it up, not a chance. I'll agree with you that it should have NEVER BEEN BUILT, we should have gone with Light Rail in 1980. But we have it, and better to make Lemonaide out of our Lemon. Therte was a button going around the USDOT in the 1970's that said simply "MIX YOUR MODES", since that time, this is a sure formula for success. Currently we have buses and buses, and 1/4 of a Skyway. Toss in non-competetive streetcars, LRT, Commuter Rail, BRT, Quality Bus and watch us join the world rank of transit savvy cities. Frankly the old Skyway, a system built over my loud protests, one that we backed into... might turn out to be a golden gift.

OCKLAWAHA
BTW, the "Brainless robot" trains, are operated by humans from a large railroad traffic control room just like CSX or FEC, it's located in the Skyway building across from the TU. So believe it or not, if it's running...JTA is at work and big brother is watching!

your kidding right

The skyway is the exact example of why government not motivated by profit can't do anything correct

There is no single aspect of the skyway that any entity motivated by profit or customer satisfaction would have implemented, size of cars, number of cars, number of rails, selection of places to originate trip, selection of places to stop, whether or not there is a market for anyone to go anyplace the skyway goes.

25 some years after maybe you can make an argument how no longer how some aspect of this is no longer an absolute total failure 

but until you can find someone/anyone who would buy it for a dime operate it and expect it to make a profit it spits in the face of the principles out capitalist society is founded on.

I would be less harsh if there wasn't 5000 other things that Jacksonville needed to spend money on. 




quote author=Charleston native link=topic=3063.msg37383#msg37383 date=1219806811]
I'll elaborate more on this tomorrow, since I have to go to bed, but after going on Ock's blog earlier this summer, I'm convinced that the Skyway should be extended to all of the destinations on the map...as long as the current monorail is upgraded to a larger set of cars to carry more people. In addition, extensions should be made to the airport and the convention center; unless another convention center closer to the core location is built.

Again, I'll elaborate more on this subject tomorrow, but if you have doubts, go to Ock's blog and watch the video that shows a typical ride on the train. That video convinced me...Skyway can be an awesome bridge to the future for mass transit in Jax.
[/quote]

"Ooh, being a former long haired anti-establishment leaping gnome, do I detect a hint of class hate here? Or are you just pissed off because it's cheaper to build projects through rotting shotgun houses rather then Modis type buildings? I don't like building anything through anybodys home, but if it can't be helped and must be done for the greater good of the whole community. That sounds rough and hateful, but it a matter of fact that people have to go somewhere and the auto era seems to be crashing around us."

LOL me an anti establishment types, yep tell that to the marines ;)  Give up your house to the Greater Good you peasant!!   Always remember capitalize Greater Good.

"So is it the Skyway you hate, or is it anyone successful in their field? Could it be someone with education, degree, experience, long-term job security, someone that creates hundreds maybe thousands of jobs that others depend on is really who you are attacking? Why wouldn't you plan a transit system like the Skyway to pass the front door of something like Berkman or the Shipyards or St. James projects, of course you would. Not to do so would be irresponsible in the extreme. Would such a failure be cheered by you? Only you!"

Yep I'm the only one that thinks the skyway was an enormous waste of money, after all the only reason the berkman plaza was built was because of th skyway, and lord knows the shipyards project was an enormouts success because of it and look at how cheap the stations were.  Oh wait.........

'Frankly homeless parks are an idea that isn't untried. With some success on the west coast, a park design with restrooms, showers and "climbing culverts" functioned as a fun place by day, and a guarded sleeping quarters by night. There were rules, no booze, clean up after yourself, use the restroom, etc... And it worked like a charm, very few were ever expelled long term. They were thankful that someone at City Hall thought of them. I felt the same way. "

OOOOOKKKKAAAYYYYYY

"Me thinks this a slight stretch, certainly the pillar could play into it, but downtown retail is too dead to bury with our cheap fill in the AM and empty in the early PM parking garages, and the punishing meters. We killed it, the Skyway certainly didn't, if anything, it might be a part of the reason for the Landing, Convention Center and the Omni. Track comes in pre-determined sections for economy, now we could spend another 30,000 or so for a few custom pieces to cover the entry to a downtown coffee shop, but wouldn't that come under department of spending like fools? "

The idea that the Landing, convention center or the Omni are in any way shape or form a result of the skyway is delusional thinking at best  And we aren't talking about downtown anymore you want to extend this to san marco, brooklyn and god knows where else, I think a pillar immediately in front of deus aix and european street is just what the doctor ordered.  Hey how about in front of the bc bs buildeing.  And to answer your last question, YES.  Special design always increases the cost on anything.

"mazing insight, you are exactly right, you build where the big developments and big crowds go. If we get a downtown highrise mall with a Saks 5Th or Nordstroms, then you build to it or through it. Just follow the crowds. Anything within 2-3 blocks is Skyway influenced development. Fixed systems more then double ridership over other systems, often with increases of 150% or more, so yes, you WANT a fixed system. Next, your occasional flood is not why it is elevated. Monorails by their nature cannot be crossed by streets at grade, keeping them in the air also works to keep them above the traffic and out of trouble. Their safety record world wide (and they've been around as long as railroads) is incredible. "

Good lord man are you smoking?   Saks, Nordstroms downtown?  were grateful we just got a dollar store downtown.  and I don't mean that as a slam.  Any stores downtown should be welcome.   Anything within 2-3 blocks is influenced development?  Where is the development downtown now, I know it just needs to be expanded.  Apparently you don't share my skeptisism of urban planners, you missed the whole point.  No you don't want a fixed system you have no flexibility.  If your planners are wrong you have huge fixed location that are piss pots for the homeless.  In fact what would happen if a saks or nordstroms located downtown away from the beautiful 12 foot pillars and elevated train?  All of a sudden you have a fixed track that cost 100,000,000 a mile that doesn't run where you want it.  No if your the city you can insist that they accomodate the track but they might not like that.  That might just irritate the saks or nordstroms.  Even if they located where you want how do you convince the citizens of jax, that its a good idea to run an elevated track to this beautiful highrise mall with a rail system that starts at the convention center and might stop in san marco at the most optimistic. I know lets expand it more.

"The original system was a misguided "gift" from the government to 3 cities, Detroit, Jacksonville and Miami. Both of the other cities went on to finish their crippled systems, we reinvested to convert ours to monorail, to make it a bit more regional if the need ever came up. Translation: We planned ahead, amazing as that sounds. Miami went on to feed their system with metro-rail and tri-rail, Detroit built streetcars and corridor trains... we frankly dropped the ball as our politicians ran and hid from folks like yourself that refuse to think this process through. "

I wouldn't exactly use Detroit as a model for anything, the miami metro area may justify a metro, due to population density,  though thats doubtful.  Nothing in the Jacksonville area justifies the cost or expense of expanding this system.  There is only just so much money available to do so many things.  To divert hundreds of millions of dollars for this makes no sense to me.  If it was seriously proposed by the city, deconsolidation would have to be considered.  If downtown wanted it let them pay for it.

"hese last three are "classic Jacksonville", but it has to stop. We can't get lower ridership out of expansion, modest as it would be on my map. Not running the system for special events, not buying the center cars (which we own the rights to - with stations built for 4-6 car sets). JTA employees need to be using the system, in fact system passes for every employee and family should be a perk. As for blowing it up, not a chance. I'll agree with you that it should have NEVER BEEN BUILT, we should have gone with Light Rail in 1980. But we have it, and better to make Lemonaide out of our Lemon. Therte was a button going around the USDOT in the 1970's that said simply "MIX YOUR MODES", since that time, this is a sure formula for success. Currently we have buses and buses, and 1/4 of a Skyway. Toss in non-competetive streetcars, LRT, Commuter Rail, BRT, Quality Bus and watch us join the world rank of transit savvy cities. Frankly the old Skyway, a system built over my loud protests, one that we backed into... might turn out to be a golden gift."

Please those classic jacksonville won't stop.  Human nature is much more powerful than the sociology classes.  And to say since we built part we have to build more is nuts.  You have to justify dumping huge amounts  money because
"might turn out to be a golden gift" is not  a risk myself or just about anyone is willing to take.

You say 10 weeks, I say 8 Jag games (i dont count preseason), plus the Suns weekend games (Suns draw well for AA, out of 30 AA teams Suns usually rank in the top Cool, plus the concerts, plus the Fair, plus FL-GA weekend, plus the Metro Park events, plus all the people that work on Bay Street & around other Skyway Stations on the line, ...do you still see 10 weeks of service? Honestly Civil do you still see 10 weeks?

Yes I do, simply because there is more than enough parking at the suns and the colosium for the other events to accomodate those people.   People aren't going to park downtown if they know that they can pay 5 bucks in the city parking lot and then walk to the stadium.

Back to Jax. The Shuttle bus cost 5 dollars to an from. Skyway is a dollar to an from, lets say they change the fare to 1 dollar 1 way... then its 2 dollars to & from Saves the fans 3 bux. All those Drivers Im sure would like to have their sunday off, You can tell by the way JTA does biz on sundays, plus Stephan Dares bus topic lol. If they had a choice theyd want to be off, let the robot (Skyway) do the work. Southsiders would go to Kings Ave/Jackson Square and Westsiders would go to the convention center. After the game guess what?? Big money for Marks, Dive Bar, TSI, Ivy Club and whatever else ends up there on Bay. Maybe even the Hemmng Plaza places may see the easy dollar signs with a direct connect. The Skyway would be a reason to hang downtown instead of going home. And this is just adding a east line NO Riverside or Springfield Station.

Actually the shuttle cost 7 dollars now from the convention center.   If you think that after 5 hours "in most cases" that all the fans are going to stand in line waiting for the people mover, then rush in and spend hit the clubs afterwards, I don't think you've been to many jaguar or sporting events.  maybe after concerts you'd be right or your a lot younger than I am.

Civil, go to :

http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/

Check out the first article, Jacksonville Transit Truth...

Then you'll hear an honest opinion of the whole plan.

OCKLAWAHA

Here is a direct link to the article:
http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/2008/08/jacksonville-regional-rapid-transit.html

Quoteyour kidding right

The skyway is the exact example of why government not motivated by profit can't do anything correct

There is no single aspect of the skyway that any entity motivated by profit or customer satisfaction would have implemented, size of cars, number of cars, number of rails, selection of places to originate trip, selection of places to stop, whether or not there is a market for anyone to go anyplace the skyway goes.

25 some years after maybe you can make an argument how no longer how some aspect of this is no longer an absolute total failure 

but until you can find someone/anyone who would buy it for a dime operate it and expect it to make a profit it spits in the face of the principles out capitalist society is founded on.

I would be less harsh if there wasn't 5000 other things that Jacksonville needed to spend money on. 

Sorry but the question on the thread is

"WHERE DOES THE SKYWAY GO FROM HERE?"

I'm not in here to debate a terrible waste back in the 1980's. What I see is a change in Transit and a change in Jacksonville. At least finished to some degree such as a stadium area parking lot, would allow commuters to flow over the bridges and PARK IT. Then the city could sell off some of the downtown properties and get them on the tax rolls. Anyone as important as a radio talk show host, should realize that Mass Transit anywhere is a service, not a "for profit" enterprise. It goes with city parks, librarys and public works, you don't have much quality of life without it because you ground the very people that provide the services that make a great city great. You simply must have transit. Jacksonville has out grown it's bus system, and is finally caught up to and passed the Skyway.

Todays transit is a lot more about attracting big ticket venues, blue chip corporate HQ and lot's of TOD developments "live-work-play", type places. Sure you don't make anything on the transit, but a great Skyway built on the bones of what we already have, mixed with commuter rail/streetcar would be a combination that a large company would have to go to New York, or San Francisco to match.

So the question remains...

Where does the Skyway go from here?

Kings Avenue Station?
Brooklyn Park?
Blue Cross-DuPont-Everbank?
Atlantic at the FEC in San Marco?
Courthouse?
Ritz?
Shands via Davis?
Stadium? (which one or district wide)?
How about a larger garage at Phillip Randolph and Arlington Expressway as a mini-transit-center?

WHERE? Let's get this thread back on the mono-RAIL.

OCKLAWAHA  

http://www.youtube.com/v/EMmSJraA6qM

(http://content.ytmnd.com/content/0/f/2/0f25b49ce61bf6efbafccb417728bf0d.jpg)

So Charleston Native? Where did you go? Don't tell me you got lost on the Skyway!

I can't believe we don't all have some opinion on how to constructively FIX THE DAMN THING! Keeping in mind no one will seriously take "blow it up" as an answer, likewise, none should take "leave it alone" as an answer either, in fact "leave it alone," is a NON-ANSWER!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 28, 2008, 11:52:50 AM
(http://content.ytmnd.com/content/0/f/2/0f25b49ce61bf6efbafccb417728bf0d.jpg)

So Charleston Native? Where did you go? Don't tell me you got lost on the Skyway!

I can't believe we don't all have some opinion on how to constructively FIX THE DAMN THING! Keeping in mind no one will seriously take "blow it up" as an answer, likewise, none should take "leave it alone" as an answer either, in fact "leave it alone," is a NON-ANSWER!

OCKLAWAHA

My bad! Sorry about that Ock. I've been tied up with some other threads, interviews for jobs, and work, so I've been busy. I want to give a substantial analysis and opinion on Skyway, even a rebuttal to Talk Show Host's response. I'll try to get it done later today or tonight.

Quote from: Charleston native on August 28, 2008, 01:44:35 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 28, 2008, 11:52:50 AM
(http://content.ytmnd.com/content/0/f/2/0f25b49ce61bf6efbafccb417728bf0d.jpg)

So Charleston Native? Where did you go? Don't tell me you got lost on the Skyway!

I can't believe we don't all have some opinion on how to constructively FIX THE DAMN THING! Keeping in mind no one will seriously take "blow it up" as an answer, likewise, none should take "leave it alone" as an answer either, in fact "leave it alone," is a NON-ANSWER!

OCKLAWAHA

My bad! Sorry about that Ock. I've been tied up with some other threads, interviews for jobs, and work, so I've been busy. I want to give a substantial analysis and opinion on Skyway, even a rebuttal to Talk Show Host's response. I'll try to get it done later today or tonight.

Let me suggest that you stop worrying so much about the polical forums...al least until you get a job  :)

Dadgummit, I know I'm a political junkie. Argh! Back to work...

BTW, this should be a testament to your city and your hospitals: I've been sending my resume like crazy to different organizations around Jax, only to find out there are usually 100-300 applications for ONE job. :o  Everybody wants to live and work there, you guys. You must be doing something right!

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 26, 2008, 02:34:09 PM
Back by popular demand, the FINISH THE SKYWAY MAP...

Where do we go from here?

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/FINISHEDSKYWAYIDEA.png)
Skyway lines in Blue, extensions shown in RED. Major bus/rail/streetcar interchanges in black.

Question, should the line go on to Jackson Square?
Question, the original plan called for a line to Shands, in light of the new Courthouse, would a new branch up through that area, LaVilla, and up Davis to Shands work? Commuter Rail West of I-95 and Skyway east, meeting behind Shands with bus and Streetcar?

What say you?

OCKLAWAHA

Here's my two cents....

Question, should the line go on to Jackson Square?

No.  Because of costs, if the goal is to have commuter rail running down the FEC line, its cheaper to just have Jackson Square's developers pay for an extra commuter rail stop (aka Caltrain style).  From that point, Jackson Square residents can take the commuter rail train to the Southbank or Prime Osborn to transfer to the Skyway.  Since Jackson Square foots the bill for their stop, service to that destination is not on the backs of the taxpayer.

Question, the original plan called for a line to Shands, in light of the new Courthouse, would a new branch up through that area, LaVilla, and up Davis to Shands work?

No.  If track is relayed on the S-Line for commuter rail, there would be a stop at Shands.  Its hard to make an argument of extending an elevated horizontal elevator, with rubber wheels to Shands, at the expense of transit improvements in other areas of the region.  However, I could see possibly a short extension north to First Street (roughly 3 or 4 blocks), assuming Hogan's Creek once again becomes Jacksonville's Central Park.

Commuter Rail West of I-95 and Skyway east, meeting behind Shands with bus and Streetcar?

Considering we have limited financial resources, I'd favor spending money to stretch improvements to several areas of town, as opposed to providing a single destination in Springfield with multiple layers fixed rail-based transit.

In the short term (10 to 15 years), I'd focus on getting commuter rail and a public/private streetcar starter line off the ground.  I would not even consider a funding a major skyway expansion before we have cheaper rail lines that stretch from the burbs to the downtown core to feed the thing with riders.  Now if we found a pot at the end of the rainbow, then expand it.  But if the cost to expand is at the expense of other transit priorities, I'd favor spending the money elsewhere.

Lakelander, would you favor taking it to Francis Lytle, Blue Cross, Atlantic at the FEC or Stadium area? I even got a PM suggesting we take it a block EAST of the Stadium (commuters and eastside residents).  

OCKLAWAHA

Your maps show streetcar and skyway lines paralleling each other in these areas.  Long term, its ideal, but for a city just getting started, with limited resources, I'd prefer the idea of a single starter streetcar line connecting Five Points to the Sports District.  The same areas are still served and it would be cheaper, more visually appealing and stimulate infill development in multiple urban core neighborhoods.

As for Riverside Avenue, a skyway stop at Brooklyn Park is a no brainer.  If it extended further, I'd like to see some of those companies/developers along Riverside Avenue contribute to the expense of extending it.

Next question, barring Jackson Square, should a mini-center be built on the west side of Atlantic at San Marco and the Skyway end there? Commuter rail - Skyway - Bus - ???  Certainly the right of way is there, and the Hilton has an interest. San Marco has an interest in getting over the FEC without a wait, looks like another short no-brainer to me. For connectivity it just beats the hell out of this idea of a commuter rail station on Prudential Drive, right in front of the San Marco Skyway Station. Why would anyone do that if they come in by train from the north or west/sw, they'll just hop the Skyway to cross the river and end up in the same place... headways 5 minutes for Skyway - 30 minutes for Commuter Rail... Skyway wins every time. Make the interchange at San Marco, just west of the tracks. Something I wish an artist/engineer/planner type (HINT HINT) would draw up.  

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteYour maps show streetcar and skyway lines paralleling each other in these areas.  Long term, its ideal, but for a city just getting started, with limited resources, I'd prefer the idea of a single starter streetcar line connecting Five Points to the Sports District.

Yes but only from Union Station to Newnan, and really the Skyway has only one downtown station on Bay. My thinking is take it down to Newnan and build a streetcar/skyway interchange, with a bus lane. This would be right next to Hyatt, and whatever comes up at the Court House site.

BTW, yet another vendor called me and said 10-20 million a mile for the Skyway extension, MAX, turnkey. Of course they built for Disney and theme parks and JTA deals with transit firms... sad to say but Disney as a transit company trumps them all in ridership, so why not look at those vendors?  

OCKLAWAHA

A starter line from Sprinfield would be a great start to light rail transit in Jacksonville.  In these tight budget years a dense neighborhood a mile from downtown would be an easy sell for transit.  The urban renewal that is currently under construction there would only be further developed.  The main street corridor is under major redevolopment.  Third and Main is rising vetical with retail and apartment and loft rentals.  7th and Main is being developed in to retail space.  Main St from 4th to 12th st is gettting a $25m redevolpment that is putting the power lines underground, landscaping the medians, adding archtectural lighting and adding brick crosswalks.  Are you listening JTA?  We already a heavy traveled corridor that would only increase in ridership.   

There is a CSX (I think) spur that terminates at Commodore Point near the Hart Bridge.
If the Skyway continued past the Stadium area, couldn't it tie in to that Right of Way,
and continue to the Matthews Bridge?
All of the land along there could be high density, high profile use sites.
Build a new,large convention center on the river at Commodore Point, and hotels between the center and the stadium.

Then, Prime Osborne could become the multimodal Temple O' Rail that it should be. 

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 29, 2008, 12:45:21 AM

QuoteYour maps show streetcar and skyway lines paralleling each other in these areas.  Long term, its ideal, but for a city just getting started, with limited resources, I'd prefer the idea of a single starter streetcar line connecting Five Points to the Sports District.

Yes but only from Union Station to Newnan, and really the Skyway has only one downtown station on Bay. My thinking is take it down to Newnan and build a streetcar/skyway interchange, with a bus lane. This would be right next to Hyatt, and whatever comes up at the Court House site.

Do we really want the skyway's elevated concrete beams running directly in front of the historic buildings on Bay, between Main & Liberty?  If we can get a way with an at-grade streetcar line serving the area, it seems like that option should be explored more.

QuoteBTW, yet another vendor called me and said 10-20 million a mile for the Skyway extension, MAX, turnkey.[/b]

OCKLAWAHA

With limited funds for transit, we have to pick the best spots to move forward initially.  At this point, its difficult to justify spending $20 million/mile on the skyway, if spending $5-$10 million/mile, gets me from downtown to Orange Park, the airport or Avenues Mall.  Its hard to bypass a 2 or 3 miles for 1 mile deal.  So ranking them by priorities, I'd get at least one or two regional lines (downtown to the I-295 beltway), up and running first.  With that said, looping the skyway around the west end of the old terminal to FEC's tracks makes sense.  A multiple block walk to transfer to different modes is bad planning.

Quote from: alta on August 29, 2008, 01:13:19 AM
A starter line from Sprinfield would be a great start to light rail transit in Jacksonville.  In these tight budget years a dense neighborhood a mile from downtown would be an easy sell for transit.  The urban renewal that is currently under construction there would only be further developed.  The main street corridor is under major redevolopment.  Third and Main is rising vetical with retail and apartment and loft rentals.  7th and Main is being developed in to retail space.  Main St from 4th to 12th st is gettting a $25m redevolpment that is putting the power lines underground, landscaping the medians, adding archtectural lighting and adding brick crosswalks.  Are you listening JTA?  We already a heavy traveled corridor that would only increase in ridership.   

I'd favor running that starter as commuter rail, using Budd RDCs (Trinity-Dallas/Ft. Worth) or Siemans DMUs (Austin/Ottawa/Oceanside), for monetary purposes.  Right now, it looks like the north line may have the lowest ridership among the three lines being studied so far.  I would also end it well before Yulee (Yulee/Fernandina would be a phase II extension).

However, I must admit, I'm thinking primarily in short term years (5-10).  Start on the no-frills cheap end of things (yet still make it efficient/attractive) and upgrade over time as the city catches rail fever.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 29, 2008, 12:39:58 AMNext question, barring Jackson Square, should a mini-center be built on the west side of Atlantic at San Marco and the Skyway end there? Commuter rail - Skyway - Bus - ???  Certainly the right of way is there, and the Hilton has an interest. San Marco has an interest in getting over the FEC without a wait, looks like another short no-brainer to me.

It makes sense to extend the skyway to just north of Atlantic Blvd.  However, the price just went up a bit with JEA costructing that new electrical substation in the middle of where it would have to run.

QuoteFor connectivity it just beats the hell out of this idea of a commuter rail station on Prudential Drive, right in front of the San Marco Skyway Station. Why would anyone do that if they come in by train from the north or west/sw, they'll just hop the Skyway to cross the river and end up in the same place... headways 5 minutes for Skyway - 30 minutes for Commuter Rail... Skyway wins every time.

Unless you caught the train outside of downtown, which is what most commuter rail riders would be doing.  If I jumped on at Baymeadows and my destination is Baptist Medical, Prudential or Aetna, I'd stay on the commuter rail train until the Southbank stop instead of transferring to the skyway at Atlantic Blvd. 

QuoteMake the interchange at San Marco, just west of the tracks. Something I wish an artist/engineer/planner type (HINT HINT) would draw up. [/color] [/b]

OCKLAWAHA

Explain in more detail and I'll see what we can work up.

QuoteDo we really want the skyway's elevated concrete beams running directly in front of the historic buildings on Bay, between Main & Liberty?  If we can get a way with an at-grade streetcar line serving the area, it seems like that option should be explored more.

As you've said in the past, a mix of old and new is an enhancement of the pedestrian experience.  I don't think the line looks bad along Hogan.  IMO, its a great way to see the architecture up close.

I personally don't think the final legs of a completed skyway system should be replaced with streetcars because of the additional headache of extra transfers.  If I'm leaving a suns game and want to get back to my condo at the Peninsula I don't want to have to transfer from trolly to skyway to do so.  Multiple fares and additional time would almost make it easier to just drive.

The skyway system should be extended to the sports district, Brooklyn, and Atlantic Blvd because the infrastructure had already been built we need to fully utilize it be completing it.  Street car routes should then extend into the historic districts and pick up the rest of the CBD that the skyway doesn't cover.

QuoteWith limited funds for transit, we have to pick the best spots to move forward initially.  At this point, its difficult to justify spending $20 million/mile on the skyway, if spending $5-$10 million/mile, gets me from downtown to Orange Park, the airport or Avenues Mall.  Its hard to bypass a 2 or 3 miles for 1 mile deal.  So ranking them by priorities, I'd get at least one or two regional lines (downtown to the I-295 beltway), up and running first.  With that said, looping the skyway around the west end of the old terminal to FEC's tracks makes sense.  A multiple block walk to transfer to different modes is bad planning.

I agree.  Streetcar routes, commuter rail, etc are all priority over government funded skyway expansions (save a new station in Brooklyn) but should not replace intended skyway expansions.

Quote from: Jason on August 29, 2008, 08:59:47 AMI personally don't think the final legs of a completed skyway system should be replaced with streetcars because of the additional headache of extra transfers.  If I'm leaving a suns game and want to get back to my condo at the Peninsula I don't want to have to transfer from trolly to skyway to do so.  Multiple fares and additional time would almost make it easier to just drive.

What about if you left a Suns game headed for anywhere outside of downtown?  I would assume most people attending events in the Sports District don't live downtown.  With most rail systems, eventually you'll have to transfer to get to certain spots.  Transfers aren't bad, if they are properly coordinated.  Plus free transfers, which I endorse, would eliminate stopping to pay multiple fares.

QuoteThe skyway system should be extended to the sports district, Brooklyn, and Atlantic Blvd because the infrastructure had already been built we need to fully utilize it be completing it.  Street car routes should then extend into the historic districts and pick up the rest of the CBD that the skyway doesn't cover.

I would not object to this.  As long as we had regional lines feeding riders into the skyway first.  As far as I'm concerned, its going to struggle to attract riders, until we have regional rail and bus lines feeding it, regardless of where the short extensions are located.

QuoteWhat about if you left a Suns game headed for anywhere outside of downtown?  I would assume most people attending events in the Sports District don't live downtown.  With most rail systems, eventually you'll have to transfer to get to certain spots.  Transfers aren't bad, if they are properly coordinated.  Plus free transfers, which I endorse, would eliminate stopping to pay multiple fares.

True, transfers are not an end all and free transfers would be a necessity.  But for those urban pioneers that make a point to invest in the core and shun the burbs, they should be rewarded.  Bringing more density to the core should be the ultimate goal of the skyway and complementing systems downtown.  Seamless transportation options are a great positive and another step towards that goal.

I would just hate to see the skyway and its massive investment further ignored by not completing it or by replacing its future extension routes before its finished.  I would rather see a much less permanent solution to extending its reaches in the form of the "JTA Trolly" or busses.

QuoteI would not object to this.  As long as we had regional lines feeding riders into the skyway first.  As far as I'm concerned, its going to struggle to attract riders, until we have regional rail and bus lines feeding it, regardless of where the short extensions are located.

Most definitely.  The single greatest limitation of the Skyway it the lack of a feeder system from the burbs.  Commuter rail should take priority.

BRT seems to have died a quick death!!!!  I wonder if they would have gone ahead with their plan without the resistance from Metro Jacksonville and the downtown community.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 28, 2008, 06:24:52 PM
Your maps show streetcar and skyway lines paralleling each other in these areas.  Long term, its ideal, but for a city just getting started, with limited resources, I'd prefer the idea of a single starter streetcar line connecting Five Points to the Sports District.  The same areas are still served and it would be cheaper, more visually appealing and stimulate infill development in multiple urban core neighborhoods.

As for Riverside Avenue, a skyway stop at Brooklyn Park is a no brainer.  If it extended further, I'd like to see some of those companies/developers along Riverside Avenue contribute to the expense of extending it.

I love this as a starting point.  All of the residences along the Skyway and new streetcar line would then be connected to the five points Publix.

Quote from: alta on August 29, 2008, 10:18:43 AM
BRT seems to have died a quick death!!!!  I wonder if they would have gone ahead with their plan without the resistance from Metro Jacksonville and the downtown community.

If not for the opposition, it would be running down the heart of downtown.  BRT is still around, but JTA is making an attempt to make sure all the mass transit components fit together.

Numerous thoughts to consider.

The first priority should be the extension to the sports/entertainment district.  This seems to be the most talked about skyway need.  It will do great things for connectivity.

It does parallel a streetcar line, so I would suggest only a few stops from BofA to the arena.  Perhaps a Hyatt/Landing stop, a shipyards area stop, entrance to the baseball field and then the final parking garage stop by the expressway.  If people want shorter distances inbetween, they should use the streetcar line.

Now picture this.  Tear down the old courthouse and insert a huge convention center with a glass indoor skyway stop and a cafe and coffee shop sticking out over the street.  The picture in my mind is pretty cool...and not easy to put into words.  I'd be happy to share with any developers out there  ;D

For now I'd not continue the skyway to Jackson Square.  See what actually happens there first.

There was also an idea of extending to Shands through Springfield.  I agree that this would duplicate rail.  However I think connecting Springfield with skyway is important.  I would suggest extending the skyway north from its current end at FCCJ up and along main street.  Even adding a mile along main would help connect Springfield to the core.  1 or 2 stops at most.  I can picture some dense developments along main street as the area continues its revitalization.  I think living in a traditional neighborhood like Springfield but enjoying a 5-10 minute skyway trip into downtown would be a huge draw for business and residential growth.

Finally, as far as skyway and Riverside.  I think right now, two stops.  Brooklyn Park, if it ever happens and then the Financial towers.  There is a huge proposed project (can't remember the name) across from St. Joe Co.  This project along with BCBS, Fidelity, EverBank, Dupont, St.Joe and others will employ hundreds of potential skyway riders.  Imagine being able to live in a beautiful Springfield home or a southbank condo and take the skyway to work at BCBS or Dupont every day.  This in itself might help get all of the companies over there to chip in some cash to get their skyway stop.  If the skyway connects to more residential it would be a huge recruitment draw for them in my opinion.

I think these are enough ideas for now.  Hope this helps, Ock.

Interesting PM came in from one of the contractors on this little monorail system. Seems we have a "time capsule" within the Skyway, and they DON'T want it opened too soon. So the gist was, PLEASE - PLEASE - finish the job.

The man was very strong on the idea of going to the stadium and one station EAST of it. Like myself, he thinks the combination of SKYWAY, 2 ARTERIAL BRIDGES, and UNLIMITED PARKING would equal heavy ridership. It could release all of the downtown garages to private sector development. It would also bracket downtown with Union Station on one side and a multi-modal connection station down by the Stadium/Randolph district. Consider too that this area is the only one that would allow for a design that includes, WATER TAXI - SKYWAY - STREETCAR - BRT - CITY BUS/SHUTTLES.

Wouldn't that blow away the TV commentators next time we host "the big game".  

OCKLAWAHA

Rather than derail (heh) the TOD thread, I'll put this here, in response to Ock's comment the Skyway should go OVER I-95.

Ock, if the Skyway were to go over I-95 from the existing Kings Ave. station, what would the slope be? could the skyway cars climb that grade? and would the passengers be able to stand up? (remember, most of the skyway passengers stand - only a couple seats per car.)

Or, alternatively, how far away from I-95 would the track have to start going up, to maintain a reasonable slope?

On the other side, I don't think there is any way (without a spiral ramp) it could get back down to ground level by the parking garage / hotel site.

On this link, the existing Kings Ave. station is near the street name label "Onyx", the garage/hotel is just below the US 1 sign, south of I-95

http://local.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=30.314321,-81.652772&spn=0.008614,0.014849&t=h&z=16

Charles, this is a spot that I think we all find ourselves in...boxed by previous bad decisions? I havent a cut-away or elevations of both the Skyway and Station sites, distances etc. It could probably handle 12% or so, I'm not sure what the Acosta is...Do You? LRT can handle 12% + (+ IN SOME CASES). Don't know if the state plans to lower the freeway there but one doubts it with Hendricks and Kings under it. Even if it went to grade East of King, we probably couldn't gain 5 feet for the Skyway.

It's frustrating, because I REALLY think this is one of the best ways to put our City in the front of the minds of visitors pouring through every hour.  

OCKLAWAHA

It may not be feasible to get the skyway up and over I-95.  Its much easier to take it under.

True, that's why I'd like to see a study, before the roads are lifted for the newest round of expansion and repair. I just want the point made that if it EVER gets near 95 or 10 it should go over where possible.

There is perhaps no better transit/garage advertising then to be stuck creeping along over the Southbank overpasses one car length at a time, then see this flying train sail effortlessly over the roadway!  

OCKLAWAHA

I can not tell you how it warms my heart to hear that there are people in the community who recognize that this city is in dire need of transportation that does not add traffic to the roads.

I do some travel and have used the systems in Washington D.C., Atlanta, New York City, London, Las Vegas and Bangkok and in very case I was impressed with how much it added to quality of life in those places.

Las Vegas has a short rail line that is far from perfect and not the cheapest thing but it once made my trip to a convention much easier.  The rail system run along the "strip" and has a stop at the front doorstep of the convention center.

The subway in New York City and the "tube" in London worked great on trips once, helping avoid hefty cab costs. 

Washington D.C., and Atlanta had it where I was able to avoid horrible traffic making for much better visits.

In Bangkok, for about equal to $14.50 US, I got a pass for the rail and it allowed me to cover a good bit of distance in a very short amount of time.  It was good for 20 uses which I used on about 7 to 9 different days and still had a few uses left on the card and gave it to someone on the way out of hotel as I headed to the airport to start my journey back home.

I just hope this city will start to make its way toward the beaches and mandarin.

My 2 cents.

Jaxphotocat

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 29, 2008, 12:45:21 AM


BTW, yet another vendor called me and said 10-20 million a mile for the Skyway extension, MAX, turnkey. Of course they built for Disney and theme parks and JTA deals with transit firms... sad to say but Disney as a transit company trumps them all in ridership, so why not look at those vendors?
OCKLAWAHA

You mean have Disney extend the Skyway??  I guess that would be ok, they are right down the street from Jax. Is that the vendor you speak of?

Quote from: alta on August 29, 2008, 01:13:19 AM
In these tight budget years a dense neighborhood a mile from downtown would be an easy sell for transit.

Yep neighborhoods like Riverside, Springfield & San Marco! The skyways needs to got those neighborhoods. I could understand contesting it if I said Dunn Ave, 103rd & Baymeadows...but Riverside, San Marco & Springfield seem so easy to do. People forget how BIG Jacksonville actually is and how close those neighborhood are to the existing line.

He's talking about the vendors who built for Disney and other theme parks. And these vendors are unfortunately not actual transit companies like the JTA would naturally prefer.

Quote from: Coolyfett on September 07, 2008, 04:52:54 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 29, 2008, 12:45:21 AM


BTW, yet another vendor called me and said 10-20 million a mile for the Skyway extension, MAX, turnkey. Of course they built for Disney and theme parks and JTA deals with transit firms... sad to say but Disney as a transit company trumps them all in ridership, so why not look at those vendors?
OCKLAWAHA

You mean have Disney extend the Skyway??  I guess that would be ok, they are right down the street from Jax. Is that the vendor you speak of?

Quote from: thelakelander on August 29, 2008, 08:14:01 AM
Do we really want the skyway's elevated concrete beams running directly in front of the historic buildings on Bay, between Main & Liberty?  If we can get a way with an at-grade streetcar line serving the area, it seems like that option should be explored more.

Man Hell yea!! I don't care if its historic...isn't the Convention Center historic? What about the St James Building? Or Hemming Plaza. From the Central Station to Hemming Plaza it passes right by historic buildings when it makes that bend. Why must streetcars be only in so called historic sections? So the Florida Theater shouldn't get a station near it because it is old? I love historic places as much as the next guy just me, I use to check out books and go find these place at night, but to say the Skyway Train shouldn't go near them lake I don't agree with. Now I not saying go down Walnut or Hubbard or Post or College....but at least go to 8th & Main and the corner of Post & Park next to that pond. That is a perfect location IMO...they can either end it there.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 29, 2008, 09:30:04 AM

I would not object to this.  As long as we had regional lines feeding riders into the skyway first.  As far as I'm concerned, its going to struggle to attract riders, until we have regional rail and bus lines feeding it, regardless of where the short extensions are located.

I agree with feeding the system with regional tracks...but struggling to attract riders? 5 Points to Springfield & 5 Points to San Marco Square would have no trouble...especially on the weekends! Now I don't know about Springfield to San Marco Square what the interest level there is, but the first 2 connectors would find riders quick.

QuoteHe's talking about the vendors who built for Disney and other theme parks. And these vendors are unfortunately not actual transit companies like the JTA would naturally prefer.

This is correct, however these companies are involved in much more then Disney, they also are currently building a mini-metro in Mexico. They certainly have the ability and track record, if the $$ and product is right, we should invite them to bid.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on September 06, 2008, 11:32:27 PM
It may not be feasible to get the skyway up and over I-95.  Its much easier to take it under.

I agree...Ock I see what you saying, but I had the same questions Charles had about the slope the train would climb. But I understand wanting the train to be seen by cars from the expressway.