Sounds like someone we know...
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/082008/opi_320575638.shtml
Streetcars: A lot of potential
By The Times-Union
Retired transportation consultant Bob Mann is either a visionary or hopelessly stuck in the past, depending on your view of his proposal that would return streetcars to downtown Jacksonville.
But on one thing, everybody agrees: He's tenacious.
Mann has been advocating streetcars - light trains on tracks, powered by overhead electricity and sharing the road with cars - for about three decades.
And, amid increased traffic congestion and spiraling gasoline prices, he's making some headway. In fact, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority is doing a study on the feasibility of making Mann's proposed track part of the city's transit system.
There is much to like about Mann's proposal:
Cost. Because it would use existing tracks, the system presumably would be relatively inexpensive.
Potential ridership. Not only would the uniqueness attract some riders, it would serve a heavily traveled route that includes Five Points, the convention center, the Landing, football stadium and library.
Tourism. Vacationers might pull off Interstate 95 for a ride. While here, maybe they would patronize some local businesses.
Economic development. In other cities, housing and businesses tend to spring up along streetcar lines.
For example, USA Today reports, Portland's streetcar system "attracted about 100 projects with $2.3 billion in less than five years, all within two blocks of the line. They include 7,248 housing units and 4.6 million square feet of office and retail."
The proposed line here would go through some areas, near downtown, that clearly need an infusion of economic development.
And, if they are made aware of the Portland experience, maybe developers would help pay the costs.
What does the future hold? Something. Mann just isn't sure quite what.
He sees three options:
- A museum. Put the streetcars in a building and invite people to look at them. That could increase public support for funding.
- For a little more money, a short track might be built to carry people to and from the museum. This might spur more donations.
- With sufficient funds, build the system and use it.
There may be a trend to streetcars. Dozens of cities either have or are planning them, Mann says.
What about Jacksonville?
Proceed with caution. Every dollar spent on streetcars is a dollar less for buses or other forms of transit.
But this seems to have potential.
Good article, but the streetcar system will not run on existing tracks. That would be commuter rail. Nevertheless, for $15 million a mile (just assuming based off the price of other streetcar systems), a line between Five Points and the Sports District has a lot of potential to immediately enhance the urban core.
Anyway, before anything is done, JTA and this city need to complete both the commuter rail and streetcar studies and combine them with the BRT plans. Lets create the overall master transit plan, price it out and then move forward with the implementation of the individual segments (streetcar, commuter rail, skyway expansion, BRT, etc.). This way everything we do, will fit in with the long term transit goal for the entire region.
I agree that the most important thing is to actually come up with a coherent plan that implements all forms of transit, and put it in place in a thoughtful way. While I wish this proposed streetcar line was built yesterday, it will be well worth the wait if it all, in the end, makes sense. It seems far too often the city gets excited about an idea and then throws it together in a vacuum without thought to overall impact. I am a bit troubled by the statement that every dollar spent is one less for buses. It overlooks the fact that the city would ultimately reap millions of dollars in revenue from the street car line. In fact, I believe every dollar spent would be two dollars more for buses and other transit. Overall a good editorial, and it is great to see these ideas creeping into the mainstream more and more frequently.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2008, 08:15:22 AM
Nevertheless, for $15 million a mile (just assuming based off the price of other streetcar systems)
Newer streetcar systems are being proposed at about $20-25 million
per LANE-mile - look at Cincinnati's planned system. It's a 4 mile one-way loop proposed for about $100 million.
I questioned some Cincinnati streetcar boosters about the high price tag, and they were quite defensive. Apparently prices have skyrocketed since Portland built their system, and anything under $20 million per single-tracked mile is unrealistic. According to Cincinnati anyway ...
I don't think the streetcar line itself will produce millions in revenue, however, the development along the line will most certainly bring millions into the city's coffers.
Quote from: Joe on August 20, 2008, 11:12:57 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2008, 08:15:22 AM
Nevertheless, for $15 million a mile (just assuming based off the price of other streetcar systems)
Newer streetcar systems are being proposed at about $20-25 million per LANE-mile - look at Cincinnati's planned system. It's a 4 mile one-way loop proposed for about $100 million.
I questioned some Cincinnati streetcar boosters about the high price tag, and they were quite defensive. Apparently prices have skyrocketed since Portland built their system, and anything under $20 million per single-tracked mile is unrealistic. According to Cincinnati anyway ...
Is it being built to light rail standards? This could account for the significant price increase along with Cincinnati's topography.
QuoteI questioned some Cincinnati streetcar boosters about the high price tag, and they were quite defensive. Apparently prices have skyrocketed since Portland built their system, and anything under $20 million per single-tracked mile is unrealistic. According to Cincinnati anyway ...
You are correct, unless one is willing to think outside of the box. One of the things completely cashiered in EVERY study is the weight of the retired railroader and railfan community. Some 5 Million World-Wide, maybe more. Incomes well above average. Education above average. Volunteerism, at the top of the crop. Memphis, Dallas, Ft. Smith, Ft. Collins all used this approach. Memphis and Dallas spent about 3 to 5 million per mile, to put in track and wire.
Also, I have JUST RECENTLY been over the route with railroad contractors, and have data that says the REAL construction costs are going to be about $5 million a mile. Add engineering, enviromental and we're up and running sometime by the end of 2010.
Jason, you are right, passenger transport doesn't make money (in general) anywhere. Airlines would falter without the huge support of the federal government. The highway carriers get a "free ride" on the national defense budget... "The Interstate Highway System". While I don't see much hope in paying off the bills, with 4 million dollar locomotives pulling 1/2 million dollar passenger cars, staffed with high paid professional crews. We then charge how much to St. Augustine? Daytona? Melbourne?
I also have some other methods that would indeed "make a profit". They are unused and untested as a whole, though each component is a well oiled part of many similar projects, no one has ever put the package together and made a tool with it. When I sign onto JTA, I'll bring that package to the City of Jacksonville. OCKLAWAHA
QuoteSounds like someone we know...
Who pray tell?OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 20, 2008, 12:00:03 PM
QuoteSounds like someone we know...
Who pray tell?
OCKLAWAHA
I prefer to think of him as a visionary... :)
ROFLMAO!
You gotta love this stuff. Thanks y'all
OCKLAWAHA
Regarding cost estimates, here's a look at Seattle's recently completed S.L.U.T.
QuoteThe length of the proposed streetcar line is approximately 1.3 miles in each direction (2.6 track miles total) and the tracks and stops would be constructed entirely within existing right-of-way. The streetcar would share the street with automobile traffic.
(http://ti.org/sluttest4.jpg)
QuoteConstruction costs with contingency added in
Construction Soft Costs* $3,830,000
Track Construction $6,577,000
Platforms & Urban Design $814,000
Maintenance Facility $3,594,000
Seattle Public Utilities: Water & Sewer $2,444,000
Seattle City Light: Ducts, Manholes, etc. $2,420,000
Stormwater Detention/Treatment $735,000
Roadway Restoration/Improvements $2,055,000
Traffic Signals and Striping $1,800,000
Traction Power Substations $1,967,000
Overhead Catenary System $3,125,000
Sub-Total Construction Costs $29,361,000
WA State Sales Tax $899,000
Total Anticipated Construction Cost $30,260,000
Streetcar Vehicles (3 vehicles incl WSST) $9,180,000
Preliminary Engineering & Environ. Documentation $1,554,000
Final Design, Construction & Engineering Administration $5,296,000
ESTIMATED PROJECT COST 1st Quarter 2005 Dollars $46,290,000
Inflation to early 2006 (start of construction) 4%per year x 1 $1,210,000
TOTAL ESTIMATED PROJECT COST- Early 2006 Dollars $47,500,000
http://www.seattle.gov/transportation/docs/slu18FINAL%20SLU%20PE%20Capital%20Cost%20Report.pdf
Quote from: Jason on August 20, 2008, 11:17:06 AM
I don't think the streetcar line itself will produce millions in revenue, however, the development along the line will most certainly bring millions into the city's coffers.
Just to be clear, this is what I meant, not that whatever (hopefully low) fare would be charged for the streetcar would bring in the revenue.
Ock... any hope you give us a sneak preview of your untested and, yes, Visionary profit making ideas are?
The closest I'll go is to say, it has to do with:
Alternate fuels
Alternate fuel storage and pumping facilities
green energy
carbon credits
no more diesel
place in a blender, within a certain order and blend on high until the mix is explosive.
BINGO!
OCKLAWAHA
You can also cut costs by employing the "no frills" strategy to get started quickly. For example, most of the higher priced systems are double tracked from the start with expensive state-of-the-art modern rail cars. You can nearly cut costs in half by going single track with limited passing sidings, along with used railcars. This way you get something up quick at a decent price that can be expanded in the future when ridership levels demand it.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2008, 12:17:58 PM
Regarding cost estimates, here's a look at Seattle's recently completed S.L.U.T.
stands for South Lake Union Trolley for anyone wondering :)
I have a suspicion that such an acronym would not pass in Jacksonville. If it did, I am sure people would be more hesitant to ride the SLUT.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 20, 2008, 02:30:43 PM
I have a suspicion that such an acronym would not pass in Jacksonville. If it did, I am sure people would be more hesitant to ride the SLUT.
As long as the SLUT is cheap and not too dirty...and tested regularly by professionals.
Yay for potty humor.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 20, 2008, 02:49:15 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 20, 2008, 02:30:43 PM
I have a suspicion that such an acronym would not pass in Jacksonville. If it did, I am sure people would be more hesitant to ride the SLUT.
As long as the SLUT is cheap and not too dirty...and tested regularly by professionals.
Yay for potty humor.
FYI - the name didn't stick in Seattle - it's preferred name is the Seattle Streetcar
Can I be the first to volunteer for Ock's army. I would love to say to my son I helped with it.