Metro Jacksonville

This is listed in the 'politics' section, since the posts are all getting deleted in the national politics section
There is loose chatter that the Russian Expansion will include the Ukraine next.
Wonder what pretext will be used for it.

QuoteKremlin dusts off Cold War lexicon to make US villain in Georgia
Charles Bremner in Moscow

Russians were told over breakfast yesterday what really happened in Georgia: the conflict in South Ossetia was part of a plot by Dick Cheney, the Vice-President, to stop Barack Obama being elected president of the United States.

The line came on the main news of Vesti FM, a state radio station that â€" like the Government and much of Russia's media â€" has reverted to the old habits of Soviet years, in which a sinister American hand was held to lie behind every conflict, especially those embarrassing to Moscow. Modern Russia may be plugged into the internet and the global marketplace but in the battle for world opinion the Kremlin is replaying the old black-and-white movie.

The Obama angle is getting wide play. It was aired on Wednesday by Sergei Markov, a senior political scientist who is close to Vladimir Putin, the Prime Minister and power behind President Medvedev.
Times Archive, 1924: Stalin attacks failure to win Georgian peasantry

The "strong, silent man" of Soviet Russia denied that the uprising was merely a counter-revolutionary plot
Vladimir Putin's mastery checkmates the West

“George Bush's Administration is promoting interests of candidate John McCain,” said Dr Markov. “Defeated by Barak Obama on all fronts, McCain has one last card to play yet - the creation of a virtual Cold War with Russia . . . Bush himself did not want a war in South Ossetia but his Republican Party did not leave him any choice.” The Americans were now engineering an armed conflict between Ukraine and Russia, Dr Markov added.

The Establishment and its media supporters are dusting off favourites from the Cold War shelf. Sergei Lavrov, the Foreign Minister, accused Washington of playing dangerous games. The West was guilty of “adventurism”, supporting aggression against peace-loving Russian forces who are engaged on a humanitarian mission to protect human life. Yesterday's headline in Commersant, a generally admired newspaper, announced with old-style sarcasm the imminent American “Military Humanitarian Landing” in Georgia.

A classic of Soviet-speak also came from Vasili Lickhachev, a former Russian Ambassador to the EU. “The West has spent a lot of time, energy and money to teach Georgia the tricks of the trade . . . to make the country look like a democracy,” he said.

“We and many other nations see through this deceit. We understand that the seditious tactics of the so-called colour revolutions are a real threat to international law and the source of global legal nihilism.”

These grooves from the Cold War grave are shrugged off by many Russians but they strike a chord in a nation ready once again to see itself as the victim of outside conspiracy. Blogs everywhere attract conspiracy lovers but Russian blogs have been exceptionally rich this week in theories of Western skulduggery over Georgia.

The old thinking finds more fertile ground now because, in the view of disillusioned Russians, President Bush relaunched the ideological war through a compliant American media, especially at the time of the invasion of Iraq.

“In the old days under Soviet rule we didn't believe a word of our own propaganda but we thought that information was free in the West and we longed for it,” said Katya, a middle-aged Muscovite. “But we have learnt since that the West has its own propaganda and in some ways it is more powerful because people believe it.”

Moscow is using novel methods to spread a very unsubtle, Cold War version of the Caucasian conflict to the world. Chief among them is Russia Today, a state 24-hour news channel that is fronted much of the time by cheery British and other English-speaking television professionals.

The smiles and studio banter could come from BBC World or CNN but the story is unrelentingly the Kremlin version. Banners flash along at the bottom of the screen saying such things as “genocide” and “aggression” or “city turns into human hell, many people still trapped under rubble”. Recapping the conflict yesterday RT's presenter said that Georgia's “brutal assault” had killed 1,600 civilians in its breakaway province in a campaign that destroyed 70 per cent of the buildings in Tskhinvali, its capital. Russian forces had moved in only to bring peace as Georgian forces killed women and children who were trying to flee, it said. Throughout its rolling cover of alleged Georgian atrocities, there was no mention of the heavy Russian military offensive.

The coverage goes down well in developing countries that want an alternative to CNN and BBC World Service, a Russian official said. “We have learnt from Western TV how to simplify the narrative.”

The Russians have alway been our unwitting pawn.  Now they know but they still fell for our trick of telling the two sides not to fight so they would fight.

Perhaps my services will be needed again... ???

Stephen:  The only posts which have been deleted in the National Politics section are those containing personal insults.  Everything else remains.  Make your points without insults and no posts will be deleted.

Moderators:  This post belongs in the National Politics section.  The Politics is for local politics only.

It's now in the national politics thread, where it belongs. If there's a problem with posts, please report them to the mods and/or admins....and please, let's have civility in our discussions.

Example:

Riversidegator calls Senator Obama a dangerous socialist. That post stays. Mr. Obama is a United States Senator.

Riversidegator is called a dangerous facist. That post is deleted. Riversidegator claims to be an unremarkable junior attorney in an unremarkable law firm in an unremarkable southern city.

Perhaps riversidegator feels he is owed more respect and deference than the United States Senator representing one of the largest Cities in this country, and that the rules of civil discussion that he imposes upon all other participants in "his" thread don't apply to his own remarks?

Or, perhaps that because Senator Obama has entered the political arena, riversidegator feels that it is not inappropriate to ape the language and insults of  limbaugh and  hannity, being as they are on national media and that usage is found to be acceptable there, and further that their language tends to support his position.

Once again, it is with great pleasure that I spotlight riversidegator's innate hypocrisy and duplicitous instinct.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 16, 2008, 12:05:36 PM
Perhaps my services will be needed again... ???

Yes. Go forth with your truncheon and deal the Ruskies a fatal blow.

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 11:37:51 AM
Example:

Riversidegator calls Senator Obama a dangerous socialist. That post stays. Mr. Obama is a United States Senator.

Riversidegator is called a dangerous facist. That post is deleted. Riversidegator claims to be an unremarkable junior attorney in an unremarkable law firm in an unremarkable southern city.

Perhaps riversidegator feels he is owed more respect and deference than the United States Senator representing one of the largest Cities in this country, and that the rules of civil discussion that he imposes upon all other participants in "his" thread don't apply to his own remarks?

Or, perhaps that because Senator Obama has entered the political arena, riversidegator feels that it is not inappropriate to ape the language and insults of  limbaugh and  hannity, being as they are on national media and that usage is found to be acceptable there, and further that their language tends to support his position.

Once again, it is with great pleasure that I spotlight riversidegator's innate hypocrisy and duplicitous instinct.

1)  As we both know, you did not just call me a fascist.  It was worse than that;
2)  You have also personally criticized me in your very next post while hiding behind your own screen name.  How unremarkable.  And, how did someone as "remarkable" as you wind up in Jacksonville, "an unremarkable Southern city";
2)  We are discussing public figures so it is fair to criticize them;
3)  You have insulted me and others personally by calling names as if we were in a school yard.  Start acting mature and your posts will not be deleted.

Quote from: stephendare on August 17, 2008, 09:36:56 AM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 16, 2008, 03:45:09 PM
Stephen:  The only posts which have been deleted in the National Politics section are those containing personal insults.  Everything else remains.  Make your points without insults and no posts will be deleted.

Moderators:  This post belongs in the National Politics section.  The Politics is for local politics only.

None of my posts have been deleted.

Thank you for being a beacon of civility for the Politics section.   ;)

Stephen does at least usually make legitimate (although debatable) points rather than personal insults.  This distinguishes him from midway.

Quote
I have multiple emails complaining about the problem in my personal email box however.

Are you and midway Emailing each other again?

QuoteThe deletions need to stop, if you are going to also be a combatant in the argument.

There are just as many offensive things being said by yourself and the right wing side of the discussion and yet no deletions.

If we cannot have fairness or civility theres not much reason to continue this section.

Fairness and civility will be maintained.  If you have a problem with something I say, let me know or let some other moderator know.  I need to steer clear of personal insults too.  The rules should apply to everyone, I agree.

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 11:40:24 AM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 16, 2008, 12:05:36 PM
Perhaps my services will be needed again... ???

Yes. Go forth with your truncheon and deal the Ruskies a fatal blow.

True to form... personal attack is your only weapon...  Perhaps a tour in the military might teach you something...

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 17, 2008, 02:44:31 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 11:40:24 AM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 16, 2008, 12:05:36 PM
Perhaps my services will be needed again... ???

Yes. Go forth with your truncheon and deal the Ruskies a fatal blow.

True to form... personal attack is your only weapon...  Perhaps a tour in the military might teach you something...

Bridgetroll has a plan!

http://www.youtube.com/v/wxrWz9XVvls&hl=en&fs=1

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 17, 2008, 02:34:24 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 11:37:51 AM
Example:

Riversidegator calls Senator Obama a dangerous socialist. That post stays. Mr. Obama is a United States Senator.

Riversidegator is called a dangerous facist. That post is deleted. Riversidegator claims to be an unremarkable junior attorney in an unremarkable law firm in an unremarkable southern city.

Perhaps riversidegator feels he is owed more respect and deference than the United States Senator representing one of the largest Cities in this country, and that the rules of civil discussion that he imposes upon all other participants in "his" thread don't apply to his own remarks?

Or, perhaps that because Senator Obama has entered the political arena, riversidegator feels that it is not inappropriate to ape the language and insults of  limbaugh and  hannity, being as they are on national media and that usage is found to be acceptable there, and further that their language tends to support his position.

Once again, it is with great pleasure that I spotlight riversidegator's innate hypocrisy and duplicitous instinct.

1)  As we both know, you did not just call me a fascist.  It was worse than that;
2)  You have also personally criticized me in your very next post while hiding behind your own screen name.  How unremarkable.  And, how did someone as "remarkable" as you wind up in Jacksonville, "an unremarkable Southern city";
2)  We are discussing public figures so it is fair to criticize them;
3)  You have insulted me and others personally by calling names as if we were in a school yard.  Start acting mature and your posts will not be deleted.

so, what is a "criticism"  in the case of a "public figure" is an "insult" in the case of a riversidegator?

You never give up. 

I think that by putting forth all the details of your life here, that also makes you a public figure. You show no restraint in the language and form in your criticisms of anyone who disagrees with your views, you conduct yourself in a flippant manner, they cry foul when the same tactics are applied to you.

You are an unintentional comic genius. Both funny and sad.

Everybody's going bankrupt, you need to find some bankruptcies to do, instead of "blogging" all day.

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 04:06:30 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 17, 2008, 02:34:24 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 11:37:51 AM
Example:

Riversidegator calls Senator Obama a dangerous socialist. That post stays. Mr. Obama is a United States Senator.

Riversidegator is called a dangerous facist. That post is deleted. Riversidegator claims to be an unremarkable junior attorney in an unremarkable law firm in an unremarkable southern city.

Perhaps riversidegator feels he is owed more respect and deference than the United States Senator representing one of the largest Cities in this country, and that the rules of civil discussion that he imposes upon all other participants in "his" thread don't apply to his own remarks?

Or, perhaps that because Senator Obama has entered the political arena, riversidegator feels that it is not inappropriate to ape the language and insults of  limbaugh and  hannity, being as they are on national media and that usage is found to be acceptable there, and further that their language tends to support his position.

Once again, it is with great pleasure that I spotlight riversidegator's innate hypocrisy and duplicitous instinct.

1)  As we both know, you did not just call me a fascist.  It was worse than that;
2)  You have also personally criticized me in your very next post while hiding behind your own screen name.  How unremarkable.  And, how did someone as "remarkable" as you wind up in Jacksonville, "an unremarkable Southern city";
2)  We are discussing public figures so it is fair to criticize them;
3)  You have insulted me and others personally by calling names as if we were in a school yard.  Start acting mature and your posts will not be deleted.

so, what is a "criticism"  in the case of a "public figure" is an "insult" in the case of a riversidegator?

You never give up. 

I think that by putting forth all the details of your life here, that also makes you a public figure. You show no restraint in the language and form in your criticisms of anyone who disagrees with your views, you conduct yourself in a flippant manner, they cry foul when the same tactics are applied to you.

You are an unintentional comic genius. Both funny and sad.

Everybody's going bankrupt, you need to find some bankruptcies to do, instead of "blogging" all day.

Perfect example....yet again

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 17, 2008, 02:44:31 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 11:40:24 AM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 16, 2008, 12:05:36 PM
Perhaps my services will be needed again... ???

Yes. Go forth with your truncheon and deal the Ruskies a fatal blow.

True to form... personal attack is your only weapon...  Perhaps a tour in the military might teach you something...

Perhaps....but with you, not so much.

Quote from: uptowngirl on August 17, 2008, 05:16:18 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 04:06:30 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 17, 2008, 02:34:24 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 11:37:51 AM
Example:

Riversidegator calls Senator Obama a dangerous socialist. That post stays. Mr. Obama is a United States Senator.

Riversidegator is called a dangerous facist. That post is deleted. Riversidegator claims to be an unremarkable junior attorney in an unremarkable law firm in an unremarkable southern city.

Perhaps riversidegator feels he is owed more respect and deference than the United States Senator representing one of the largest Cities in this country, and that the rules of civil discussion that he imposes upon all other participants in "his" thread don't apply to his own remarks?

Or, perhaps that because Senator Obama has entered the political arena, riversidegator feels that it is not inappropriate to ape the language and insults of  limbaugh and  hannity, being as they are on national media and that usage is found to be acceptable there, and further that their language tends to support his position.

Once again, it is with great pleasure that I spotlight riversidegator's innate hypocrisy and duplicitous instinct.

1)  As we both know, you did not just call me a fascist.  It was worse than that;
2)  You have also personally criticized me in your very next post while hiding behind your own screen name.  How unremarkable.  And, how did someone as "remarkable" as you wind up in Jacksonville, "an unremarkable Southern city";
2)  We are discussing public figures so it is fair to criticize them;
3)  You have insulted me and others personally by calling names as if we were in a school yard.  Start acting mature and your posts will not be deleted.

so, what is a "criticism"  in the case of a "public figure" is an "insult" in the case of a riversidegator?

You never give up. 

I think that by putting forth all the details of your life here, that also makes you a public figure. You show no restraint in the language and form in your criticisms of anyone who disagrees with your views, you conduct yourself in a flippant manner, they cry foul when the same tactics are applied to you.

You are an unintentional comic genius. Both funny and sad.

Everybody's going bankrupt, you need to find some bankruptcies to do, instead of "blogging" all day.

Perfect example....yet again

Perfect example of what, exactly, uptowngirl?

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 04:06:30 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 17, 2008, 02:34:24 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 11:37:51 AM
Example:

Riversidegator calls Senator Obama a dangerous socialist. That post stays. Mr. Obama is a United States Senator.

Riversidegator is called a dangerous facist. That post is deleted. Riversidegator claims to be an unremarkable junior attorney in an unremarkable law firm in an unremarkable southern city.

Perhaps riversidegator feels he is owed more respect and deference than the United States Senator representing one of the largest Cities in this country, and that the rules of civil discussion that he imposes upon all other participants in "his" thread don't apply to his own remarks?

Or, perhaps that because Senator Obama has entered the political arena, riversidegator feels that it is not inappropriate to ape the language and insults of  limbaugh and  hannity, being as they are on national media and that usage is found to be acceptable there, and further that their language tends to support his position.

Once again, it is with great pleasure that I spotlight riversidegator's innate hypocrisy and duplicitous instinct.

1)  As we both know, you did not just call me a fascist.  It was worse than that;
2)  You have also personally criticized me in your very next post while hiding behind your own screen name.  How unremarkable.  And, how did someone as "remarkable" as you wind up in Jacksonville, "an unremarkable Southern city";
2)  We are discussing public figures so it is fair to criticize them;
3)  You have insulted me and others personally by calling names as if we were in a school yard.  Start acting mature and your posts will not be deleted.

so, what is a "criticism"  in the case of a "public figure" is an "insult" in the case of a riversidegator?

You never give up. 

I think that by putting forth all the details of your life here, that also makes you a public figure. You show no restraint in the language and form in your criticisms of anyone who disagrees with your views, you conduct yourself in a flippant manner, they cry foul when the same tactics are applied to you.

You are an unintentional comic genius. Both funny and sad.

Everybody's going bankrupt, you need to find some bankruptcies to do, instead of "blogging" all day.

Let's see.  Let me make this real clear for you midway:  Calling someone's ideas or beliefs wrongheaded and explaining why is ok.  Calling someone an idiot for disagreeing with you not ok.  Personally attacking a public figure (e.g. an elected figure or someone running for office) is ok (although not usually terribly persuasive) within the bounds of decency.  Personally attacking a fellow poster is not allowed.

And, I am not a public figure and have not chosen to reveal my identity.  But whether or not someone chooses to remain anonymous on here is not relevant to whether or not you may issue personal attacks against them.  Learn this or take your song and dance elsewhere.

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 04:06:30 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 17, 2008, 02:34:24 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 17, 2008, 11:37:51 AM
Example:

Riversidegator calls Senator Obama a dangerous socialist. That post stays. Mr. Obama is a United States Senator.

Riversidegator is called a dangerous facist. That post is deleted. Riversidegator claims to be an unremarkable junior attorney in an unremarkable law firm in an unremarkable southern city.

Perhaps riversidegator feels he is owed more respect and deference than the United States Senator representing one of the largest Cities in this country, and that the rules of civil discussion that he imposes upon all other participants in "his" thread don't apply to his own remarks?

Or, perhaps that because Senator Obama has entered the political arena, riversidegator feels that it is not inappropriate to ape the language and insults of  limbaugh and  hannity, being as they are on national media and that usage is found to be acceptable there, and further that their language tends to support his position.

Once again, it is with great pleasure that I spotlight riversidegator's innate hypocrisy and duplicitous instinct.

1)  As we both know, you did not just call me a fascist.  It was worse than that;
2)  You have also personally criticized me in your very next post while hiding behind your own screen name.  How unremarkable.  And, how did someone as "remarkable" as you wind up in Jacksonville, "an unremarkable Southern city";
2)  We are discussing public figures so it is fair to criticize them;
3)  You have insulted me and others personally by calling names as if we were in a school yard.  Start acting mature and your posts will not be deleted.

so, what is a "criticism"  in the case of a "public figure" is an "insult" in the case of a riversidegator?

You never give up. 

I think that by putting forth all the details of your life here, that also makes you a public figure. You show no restraint in the language and form in your criticisms of anyone who disagrees with your views, you conduct yourself in a flippant manner, they cry foul when the same tactics are applied to you.

You are an unintentional comic genius. Both funny and sad.

Everybody's going bankrupt, you need to find some bankruptcies to do, instead of "blogging" all day.

I suggest you take a closer look at yourself...

QuoteYou show no restraint in the language and form in your criticisms of anyone who disagrees with your views, you conduct yourself in a flippant manner, they cry foul when the same tactics are applied to you.

You are an unintentional comic genius. Both funny and sad.

Moral equivalence by Midway.

How convenient.

And typical.

Stephen: "However, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

The only insulting posts that get deleted from this thread are those made by non right wing commentors."



RSG:
"Fairness and civility will be maintained.  If you have a problem with something I say, let me know or let some other moderator know.  I need to steer clear of personal insults too.  The rules should apply to everyone, I agree."

I would take him up on it if you feel the need. After all many, many posts ago this is what RSG stated. This should have settled the issue  ;)

Uptowngirl, I think you are a little late to this dance.

I will ignore your invitation to leave, however, you may feel free to do so at any time. That is unless you are assuming management of this site, in which case I will go.

And by the way, please find one single instance where i called anyone an idiot. You will not, because i have not done that. Thank you for shooting from the hip and putting words into my mouth. And don't come back and say that those posts were deleted, because there were zero instances of the use of that word.

If you want to crusade for decency and justice, I suggest that you at least get your facts straight before you  launch upon your mission.

And, actually, the only single instance that I can recall of the use of the word idiot was in a post FROM Riversidegator referring to me as such, which in fairness to him, he subsequently deleted after my complaint to him via email.

So, there is more complexity to this than your superficial parsing reveals, and once again, the answers are not as simple as they first appear.

And, Riverside, I will be sure to clear any communication I might be contemplating with you, prior to my contacting anyone.

Just one question, though, would it be alright to send emails to people NOT associated with Metrojacksionville without your approval, or should I clear ALL of my emails through you? What about phone calls?

Thanks.

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 04:21:42 PM
Uptowngirl, I think you are a little late to this dance.

I will ignore your invitation to leave, however, you may feel free to do so at any time. That is unless you are assuming management of this site, in which case I will go.

And by the way, please find one single instance where i called anyone an idiot. You will not, because i have not done that. Thank you for shooting from the hip and putting words into my mouth. And don't come back and say that those posts were deleted, because there were zero instances of the use of that word.

If you want to crusade for decency and justice, I suggest that you at least get your facts straight before you  launch upon your mission.

And, actually, the only single instance that I can recall of the use of the word idiot was in a post FROM Riversidegator referring to me as such, which in fairness to him, he subsequently deleted after my complaint to him via email.

So, there is more complexity to this than your superficial parsing reveals, and once again, the answers are not as simple as they first appear.

As usual I have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 04:25:29 PM
And, Riverside, I will be sure to clear any communication I might be contemplating with you, prior to my contacting anyone.

Just one question, though, would it be alright to send emails to people NOT associated with Metrojacksionville without your approval, or should I clear ALL of my emails through you? What about phone calls?

Thanks.

Just go ahead and run any major decision by me first before you do anything.  Thanks.   ;)

Now, back to the topic at hand, namely Russia and Georgia.

Do you wonder where the president of Georgia got the strange idea that the USA would stand behind him when he essentially declared war on Russia by attacking Ossetia?

QuoteSince Karl Rove skipped out on his subpoena to appear before the House Judiciary Committee last month, the whereabouts of Bush’s longtime political strategist have emergedâ€"Rove was in Crimea, Ukraine, for the fifth annual Yalta European Strategy summit. Also in attendance: former British Prime Minister Tony Blair and Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili. Here’s an excerpt from his panel discussion about how U.S. policy toward Ukraine would change, if at all, after November’s American presidential elections.

http://justiceleague00.blogspot.com/2008/08/roves-yalta-european-strategy-summit.html

Rove was whispering into Saakashvili's ear, hoping to precipitate a full blown war between Georgia and Russia, which would divert voter's attention from the economy, and social woes, to reinvigorate the "cold war". If the election can be reframed so that the specter of communism and the USSR can dominate the election, McCain wins. Rove played Saakashvili like an English concertina. that's why he looked like all of his blood had been drained from him when he was standing next to Condi and signing the treaty, because he knew he had been double crossed. So now Rove is formulating US foreign policy as well, which would be a violation of federal law.

Quote from: stephendare on August 18, 2008, 04:29:30 PM
lol.

Midway, thats pretty hilarious.

You can also always come to our Tuesday Night public meetings at Hola in springfield.

River isnt nervy enough to come to them.

Actually, I am too busy with work and family obligations and therefore do not have time to join another organization.  I certainly support the goals of MetroJacksonville locally however and am making my own contributions to urban core living in my own way.

Quote from: uptowngirl on August 18, 2008, 04:59:10 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 04:21:42 PM
Uptowngirl, I think you are a little late to this dance.

I will ignore your invitation to leave, however, you may feel free to do so at any time. That is unless you are assuming management of this site, in which case I will go.

And by the way, please find one single instance where i called anyone an idiot. You will not, because i have not done that. Thank you for shooting from the hip and putting words into my mouth. And don't come back and say that those posts were deleted, because there were zero instances of the use of that word.

If you want to crusade for decency and justice, I suggest that you at least get your facts straight before you  launch upon your mission.

And, actually, the only single instance that I can recall of the use of the word idiot was in a post FROM Riversidegator referring to me as such, which in fairness to him, he subsequently deleted after my complaint to him via email.

So, there is more complexity to this than your superficial parsing reveals, and once again, the answers are not as simple as they first appear.

As usual I have no idea what you are talking about.

A. Which does not surprise me.
B. So you should stay out of this.

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 18, 2008, 05:02:33 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 04:25:29 PM
And, Riverside, I will be sure to clear any communication I might be contemplating with you, prior to my contacting anyone.

Just one question, though, would it be alright to send emails to people NOT associated with Metrojacksionville without your approval, or should I clear ALL of my emails through you? What about phone calls?

Thanks.

Just go ahead and run any major decision by me first before you do anything.  Thanks.   ;)

Please define what you mean by "major".  Would ordering pizza be considered major, or just the decision regarding toppings?

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 05:04:15 PM
http://justiceleague00.blogspot.com/2008/08/roves-yalta-european-strategy-summit.html

Rove was whispering into Saakashvili's ear, hoping to precipitate a full blown war between Georgia and Russia, which would divert voter's attention from the economy, and social woes, to reinvigorate the "cold war". If the election can be reframed so that the specter of communism and the USSR can dominate the election, McCain wins. Rove played Saakashvili like an English concertina. that's why he looked like all of his blood had been drained from him when he was standing next to Condi and signing the treaty, because he knew he had been double crossed. So now Rove is formulating US foreign policy as well, which would be a violation of federal law.

Is your source for this really a blog which cartoon characters as its masthead??   :D

You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel in an attempt to find "crimes" which the evil puppet-master, Rove, supposedly committed. 

As I said, if you can reframe the election into a cold war type situation, which is essentially to roll back the clock 30 years, mcCain is in his prime.

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 05:07:26 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 18, 2008, 05:02:33 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 04:25:29 PM
And, Riverside, I will be sure to clear any communication I might be contemplating with you, prior to my contacting anyone.

Just one question, though, would it be alright to send emails to people NOT associated with Metrojacksionville without your approval, or should I clear ALL of my emails through you? What about phone calls?

Thanks.

Just go ahead and run any major decision by me first before you do anything.  Thanks.   ;)

Please define what you mean by "major".  Would ordering pizza be considered major, or just the decision regarding toppings?

Both.  I think you need a little micromanaging right now.

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 18, 2008, 05:09:29 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 05:04:15 PM
http://justiceleague00.blogspot.com/2008/08/roves-yalta-european-strategy-summit.html

Rove was whispering into Saakashvili's ear, hoping to precipitate a full blown war between Georgia and Russia, which would divert voter's attention from the economy, and social woes, to reinvigorate the "cold war". If the election can be reframed so that the specter of communism and the USSR can dominate the election, McCain wins. Rove played Saakashvili like an English concertina. that's why he looked like all of his blood had been drained from him when he was standing next to Condi and signing the treaty, because he knew he had been double crossed. So now Rove is formulating US foreign policy as well, which would be a violation of federal law.

Is your source for this really a blog which cartoon characters as its masthead??   :D

You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel in an attempt to find "crimes" which the evil puppet-master, Rove, supposedly committed. 

Ok Rove was not there??

Why dont you dispute the facts? As you are fond of saying.

Where do you think that idea came from, anyway. Who in their right mind would go up against Russia without any backing?

Come on.

What exactly was rove doing there anyway? He shows up and boom! next thing you know theres a war.

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 18, 2008, 05:10:20 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 05:07:26 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 18, 2008, 05:02:33 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 04:25:29 PM
And, Riverside, I will be sure to clear any communication I might be contemplating with you, prior to my contacting anyone.

Just one question, though, would it be alright to send emails to people NOT associated with Metrojacksionville without your approval, or should I clear ALL of my emails through you? What about phone calls?

Thanks.

Just go ahead and run any major decision by me first before you do anything.  Thanks.   ;)

Please define what you mean by "major".  Would ordering pizza be considered major, or just the decision regarding toppings?

Both.  I think you need a little micromanaging right now.

And I'm sure that you are just the person to do that.

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 05:10:25 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 18, 2008, 05:09:29 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 05:04:15 PM
http://justiceleague00.blogspot.com/2008/08/roves-yalta-european-strategy-summit.html

Rove was whispering into Saakashvili's ear, hoping to precipitate a full blown war between Georgia and Russia, which would divert voter's attention from the economy, and social woes, to reinvigorate the "cold war". If the election can be reframed so that the specter of communism and the USSR can dominate the election, McCain wins. Rove played Saakashvili like an English concertina. that's why he looked like all of his blood had been drained from him when he was standing next to Condi and signing the treaty, because he knew he had been double crossed. So now Rove is formulating US foreign policy as well, which would be a violation of federal law.

Is your source for this really a blog which cartoon characters as its masthead??   :D

You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel in an attempt to find "crimes" which the evil puppet-master, Rove, supposedly committed. 

Ok Rove was not there??

I need to see an independent media confirmation that he was there.  In any event however his presence does not prove that he orchestrated the Russian invasion of Georgia.  Sorry but that is a bit too far fetched for me.  Perhaps some evidence would be useful for you to post at this time.  You know like eyewitness witness testimony or documents or such.

Ok.  We have confirmation that he was at the event.  This is not exactly the same thing as proving that he encouraged the Georgians to precipitate a Russian invasion of their country.  Keep blaming America first though.

BTW, wouldnt it be just as logical to assume that the Democrats are behind all of this?

Quotekey strategists of the leading U.S. political parties - Republican Mr Karl Rove and Democrat Mr Bob Shrum.

:o

I will ignore your invitation to leave, however, you may feel free to do so at any time. That is unless you are assuming management of this site, in which case I will go.

What amazes me about this argument, is that some people beleive  its all about us (the us).  Other nations have there own motive and reasons for acting, its not necessarily because of what we did.  Looking at the russian invasion/response whatever you want to call it.  This was not a spur of the moment act.  You gather that many forces, have a plan and execute it within a couple of days. 

Quote from: civil42806 on August 18, 2008, 07:47:21 PM
What amazes me about this argument, is that some people beleive  its all about us (the us).  Other nations have there own motive and reasons for acting, its not necessarily because of what we did.  Looking at the russian invasion/response whatever you want to call it.  This was not a spur of the moment act.  You gather that many forces, have a plan and execute it within a couple of days. 

There were not that many forces. The Georgians began an air assault on South Osettia, thinking (incredibly) that their good buddy Uncle Sam would be standing right behind them. Because this is what was being whispered to them by McCain's campaign adviser (Scheunemann, who is a lobbyist for Georgia) and Rove. Well, as he found out, uncle was standing behind him, way behind him.

You also have to understand that South Osettia considered itself to be part of Russia. so much so that Russia even issued all passports for South Osettia, so you would either have to be crazy to launch an attack against them, or be sure that the big dog is right behind you.

And by the way, true to form, McCain raised the issue of the Georgia-Russia conflict in his VFW speech today, right on schedule.  the only loser in this is poor Mikhail Shakashvili who learned an expensive lesson indeed.

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 18, 2008, 05:35:15 PM
Ok.  We have confirmation that he was at the event.  This is not exactly the same thing as proving that he encouraged the Georgians to precipitate a Russian invasion of their country.  Keep blaming America first though.

BTW, wouldnt it be just as logical to assume that the Democrats are behind all of this?

Quotekey strategists of the leading U.S. political parties - Republican Mr Karl Rove and Democrat Mr Bob Shrum.

:o

Interesting how you twist things around.  They encouraged him to go on a land grab expedition, hinting that they were right behind him. It just turned out that he was played for a fool By Rove and Scheunemann and managed to precipitate a Russian invasion of his country, much to his surprise and chagrin. And as to your allegation that I am blaming America, last i heard neither Rove nor Scheunemann hold elective or appointed positions in the government of the United States of America, so, on the contrary, i blame them as rogue agents, not the USA, so lets not have you speak for me, ok?

And no, it would not be just as logical to assume that the democrats are behind all of this, because there is no motive, and they have nothing to gain from it, so sorry, that's a non-starter as well.

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 09:30:39 PM

Quote from: civil42806 on August 18, 2008, 07:47:21 PM
What amazes me about this argument, is that some people beleive  its all about us (the us).  Other nations have there own motive and reasons for acting, its not necessarily because of what we did.  Looking at the russian invasion/response whatever you want to call it.  This was not a spur of the moment act.  You gather that many forces, have a plan and execute it within a couple of days. 

There were not that many forces. The Georgians began an air assault on South Osettia, thinking (incredibly) that their good buddy Uncle Sam would be standing right behind them. Because this is what was being whispered to them by McCain's campaign adviser (Scheunemann, who is a lobbyist for Georgia) and Rove. Well, as he found out, uncle was standing behind him, way behind him.

You also have to understand that South Osettia considered itself to be part of Russia. so much so that Russia even issued all passports for South Osettia, so you would either have to be crazy to launch an attack against them, or be sure that the big dog is right behind you.

And by the way, true to form, McCain raised the issue of the Georgia-Russia conflict in his VFW speech today, right on schedule.  the only loser in this is poor Mikhail Shakashvili who learned an expensive lesson indeed.

Interesting theory, midway.  Any evidence or sources other than fevered left wing blogs?

Quote from: stephendare on August 18, 2008, 10:47:29 PM
Ya know, Midway, your grasp of detail astounds me sometimes.

His grasp of fiction is even better.   ;)

If you make the argument, you better be prepared to back it up with proof.  Otherwise, it will be considered the work of fiction which midway's theory is.

Here is why I discount the "Rove started the war" theory...  Using the Wikipedia Stephen provided here are some facts...

QuoteThe Georgian government said the troops had been sent to end the shelling of Georgian civilians by South Ossetian secessionists.

QuoteRussia responded the next day by large scale bombardment of Georgian military and civilian targets by sending troops and armor into South Ossetia

QuoteIn the opinion of the independent Russian military analyst Pavel Felgenhauer, "Russia's invasion of Georgia had been planned in advance, with the final political decision to complete the preparations and start war in August apparently having been made back in April."

The Russians have clearly been planning this for a long time.  This invasion and decimation of the Georgian military has served as a warning to both Georgia and Ukraine to reconsider entry into NATO.  It also serves as warning to other former Soviet republics and Warsaw pact nations that Russia will not stand idly by while they consider entry into NATO.

Had Russian troops stopped at the Ossetia-Georgia border a case could have been made for a simple defense of Russian citizens in Ossetia.  In my view the Georgians were goaded into attack to give Russia the excuse they needed...

^ Much better analysis, BridgeTroll, and far less biased. I think that is what happened as well; Russia is merely flexing its muscles to intimidate smaller countries like Georgia and the Ukraine. The strategy makes sense as well...intimidation is the SOP for Russia, and has been for years. It still cannot shake the culture of communism that has poisoned the government there.

Putin was prior KGB. Talk about power-hungry...

Quote from: stephendare on August 19, 2008, 01:01:52 AM
It is a theory.  River.  Certainly more researched than any of the crackpot nonsense others have posted.

At least Midway took the time and bother to know what the hell he was talking about.

You simply make yourself foolish by demanding that other people look up easily verified facts for you, only to find out that they were the top search return for google.

Even if you had a point, which you usually don't  (Merely to regurgitate whatever sounded 'conservative' on Drudge Report that day seems to be your only aim insofar as i can tell)  wouldnt your questions be better spent on things that actually challenge the opposing viewpoint?

Now you have committed to calling Midway's theory a 'work of fiction' not based on ANY objective evidence, but solely on your own prejudices.

Prove that Midways theory is fiction River.  I want to see links and quotes.

Prove it.

1)  I cant prove a negative.
2)  It is the job of the person propounding the theory to prove it.  It is not the job of the person who doubts it to disprove it.

Europe has a stake in this also... Where are they?  As usual they sit on their collective hands waiting for the U.S. to do "something".

Quote from: stephendare on August 19, 2008, 01:53:29 PM
you positively called midways theory a work of fiction.

Now positively prove your argument.

This is positively nonsense.

Quote from: stephendare on August 19, 2008, 02:41:43 PM
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-easteurope19-2008aug19,0,6812498.story

Its too bad that we are completely bogged down in the middle east with an exhausted army and untold billions of dollars missing in the Halliburton accounting machine.

We might have provided a counterbalance.

QuoteEastern Europe gets jittery over Russia
Alik Keplicz / Associated Press
By Tracy Wilkinson, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
August 19, 2008

WARSAW -- Signing a missile-defense deal with its good friend the United States has earned Poland nothing less than the threat of nuclear attack from Russia -- a threat that might not sound so empty these days, given Moscow's bloody battle with Georgia.

That conflict has plunged Europe into crisis, sending waves of jitters through Poland and other eastern nations, once-occupied parts of a Soviet empire that some fear Russia may want to reconstruct. Moscow's actions have also succeeded in driving deeper the wedge between Europe's East and West.
"Slowly, the Iron Curtain is being rebuilt," said Jacek Palasinski, veteran foreign affairs commentator for the Polish television network TVN24. "Europe will be divided again -- the lines are different, pushed farther east, but the division is the same. And dangerous."

Ukraine and Moldova are worried that they could be Russia's next targets. The Czech Republic, on the eve of the 40th anniversary of a Soviet invasion that crushed the Prague Spring reform movement, is fretting about history repeating itself. Many Eastern European nations, Poland chief among them, are eager to find safe haven, and have turned to Washington for guidance and reassurance and partnership.

But the fact that the distracted and overly stretched Bush administration took little concrete action to protect Georgia from Russia's wrath must also give pause to nations that would throw their lot completely with the U.S. Is the strategic alliance that many Eastern European countries have been building with the U.S. since the fall of communism nearly two decades ago still worth the risks?

What sort of counterbalance should we provide that is not already provided?  Are you advocating a war with Russia? 

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 19, 2008, 04:07:47 PM

What sort of counterbalance should we provide that is not already provided?  Are you advocating a war with Russia? 

I'm pretty sure that's what Bush (Rove) and McCain are saying!

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 19, 2008, 04:27:28 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 19, 2008, 04:07:47 PM

What sort of counterbalance should we provide that is not already provided?  Are you advocating a war with Russia? 

I'm pretty sure that's what Bush (Rove) and McCain are saying!

Can you please provide some quotes for that.  Pardon me if I dont take your word for that.   ;)

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 19, 2008, 04:06:28 PM

Quote from: stephendare on August 19, 2008, 01:53:29 PM
you positively called midways theory a work of fiction.

Now positively prove your argument.

This is positively nonsense.

Go ahead. Prove it, instead of name calling, Mr. Moderator. I'd love to hear your theory. And no Wikipedia reprints, please. Try putting the pieces together yourself, instead of endlessly reprinting other's work. Let's see some of your original thought.

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 09:37:21 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 18, 2008, 05:35:15 PM
Ok.  We have confirmation that he was at the event.  This is not exactly the same thing as proving that he encouraged the Georgians to precipitate a Russian invasion of their country.  Keep blaming America first though.

BTW, wouldnt it be just as logical to assume that the Democrats are behind all of this?

Quotekey strategists of the leading U.S. political parties - Republican Mr Karl Rove and Democrat Mr Bob Shrum.

:o

Interesting how you twist things around.  They encouraged him to go on a land grab expedition, hinting that they were right behind him. It just turned out that he was played for a fool By Rove and Scheunemann and managed to precipitate a Russian invasion of his country, much to his surprise and chagrin. And as to your allegation that I am blaming America, last i heard neither Rove nor Scheunemann hold elective or appointed positions in the government of the United States of America, so, on the contrary, i blame them as rogue agents, not the USA, so lets not have you speak for me, ok?

And no, it would not be just as logical to assume that the democrats are behind all of this, because there is no motive, and they have nothing to gain from it, so sorry, that's a non-starter as well.

Let me start with"This is a serious question", what would Rove have to gain from this? This hurtds Georgia, Russia, the USA, and Europe. What personal gain would Rove get out of these actions? Seriously I can't figure that part out....

Quote from: Midway on August 19, 2008, 05:15:05 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 19, 2008, 04:06:28 PM

Quote from: stephendare on August 19, 2008, 01:53:29 PM
you positively called midways theory a work of fiction.

Now positively prove your argument.

This is positively nonsense.

Go ahead. Prove it, instead of name calling, Mr. Moderator. I'd love to hear your theory. And no Wikipedia reprints, please. Try putting the pieces together yourself, instead of endlessly reprinting other's work. Let's see some of your original thought.

Let's recap what happened.  You posted this half-baked grand conspiracy theory which posited that Rove was behind the Russia-Georgia conflict because he thought this would aid the Republicans in November.  I said that I would like to see some evidence or proof of this.  Now, you are demanding that I prove that your theory is untrue.  That is truly the most absurd request I have heard lately, midway.   :D

The burden of proof is on those who make wild claims, not on those who ask them to provide evidence for their wild claims.   ;)

Don't waste my time with your nonsense. I have things to do. You should have things to do.

Quote from: uptowngirl on August 19, 2008, 05:37:01 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 09:37:21 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 18, 2008, 05:35:15 PM
Ok.  We have confirmation that he was at the event.  This is not exactly the same thing as proving that he encouraged the Georgians to precipitate a Russian invasion of their country.  Keep blaming America first though.

BTW, wouldnt it be just as logical to assume that the Democrats are behind all of this?

Quotekey strategists of the leading U.S. political parties - Republican Mr Karl Rove and Democrat Mr Bob Shrum.

:o

Interesting how you twist things around.  They encouraged him to go on a land grab expedition, hinting that they were right behind him. It just turned out that he was played for a fool By Rove and Scheunemann and managed to precipitate a Russian invasion of his country, much to his surprise and chagrin. And as to your allegation that I am blaming America, last i heard neither Rove nor Scheunemann hold elective or appointed positions in the government of the United States of America, so, on the contrary, i blame them as rogue agents, not the USA, so lets not have you speak for me, ok?

And no, it would not be just as logical to assume that the democrats are behind all of this, because there is no motive, and they have nothing to gain from it, so sorry, that's a non-starter as well.

Let me start with"This is a serious question", what would Rove have to gain from this? This hurtds Georgia, Russia, the USA, and Europe. What personal gain would Rove get out of these actions? Seriously I can't figure that part out....

Ha Ha Ha.... keep thinking!

Quote from: Midway on August 19, 2008, 07:04:59 PM

Quote from: uptowngirl on August 19, 2008, 05:37:01 PM

Quote from: Midway on August 18, 2008, 09:37:21 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 18, 2008, 05:35:15 PM
Ok.  We have confirmation that he was at the event.  This is not exactly the same thing as proving that he encouraged the Georgians to precipitate a Russian invasion of their country.  Keep blaming America first though.

BTW, wouldnt it be just as logical to assume that the Democrats are behind all of this?

Quotekey strategists of the leading U.S. political parties - Republican Mr Karl Rove and Democrat Mr Bob Shrum.

:o

Interesting how you twist things around.  They encouraged him to go on a land grab expedition, hinting that they were right behind him. It just turned out that he was played for a fool By Rove and Scheunemann and managed to precipitate a Russian invasion of his country, much to his surprise and chagrin. And as to your allegation that I am blaming America, last i heard neither Rove nor Scheunemann hold elective or appointed positions in the government of the United States of America, so, on the contrary, i blame them as rogue agents, not the USA, so lets not have you speak for me, ok?

And no, it would not be just as logical to assume that the democrats are behind all of this, because there is no motive, and they have nothing to gain from it, so sorry, that's a non-starter as well.

Let me start with"This is a serious question", what would Rove have to gain from this? This hurtds Georgia, Russia, the USA, and Europe. What personal gain would Rove get out of these actions? Seriously I can't figure that part out....

Ha Ha Ha.... keep thinking!

It is worthless to have any type of discourse with you,  I think I have better things to do that even consider one of your paranoid, conspiracy theory, no proof posts, ramblings.

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 19, 2008, 04:32:40 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 19, 2008, 04:27:28 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 19, 2008, 04:07:47 PM

What sort of counterbalance should we provide that is not already provided?  Are you advocating a war with Russia? 

I'm pretty sure that's what Bush (Rove) and McCain are saying!

Can you please provide some quotes for that.  Pardon me if I dont take your word for that.   ;)

From McCain's big speech the other day

"Russian President Medvedev and Prime Minister Putin must understand the severe, long-term negative consequences that their government’s actions will have for Russia’s relationship with the U.S. and Europe."

and just to add a bit more to the debate...check out this link...and keep in mind that McCain is "supposed to be" the foreign policy expert in the race.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/15/mccain-russia/ (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/15/mccain-russia/)

And fionally, there is McCain's staement about contries not invading other countries in the 21st century....uhh, Iraq?

Quote from: Midway on August 19, 2008, 07:03:21 PM
Don't waste my time with your nonsense. I have things to do. You should have things to do.

The nonsense was initially posted by you.  I am glad to see you are moving on though.

Quote from: Midway on August 19, 2008, 05:15:05 PM

Quote from: RiversideGator on August 19, 2008, 04:06:28 PM

Quote from: stephendare on August 19, 2008, 01:53:29 PM
you positively called midways theory a work of fiction.

Now positively prove your argument.

This is positively nonsense.

Go ahead. Prove it, instead of name calling, Mr. Moderator. I'd love to hear your theory. And no Wikipedia reprints, please. Try putting the pieces together yourself, instead of endlessly reprinting other's work. Let's see some of your original thought.

I have already provided a rational explanation which you have managed to ignore.  Just like our local weather forcasters you choose to believe hype and irrational fear over common sense.  Your hatred of all things "Bush" clouds your judgement.

Quote from: Midway on August 19, 2008, 07:03:21 PM
Don't waste my time with your nonsense. I have things to do. You should have things to do.

Like grilling more hamburgers...or playing with your X-Box in your Mommy's basement?

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2008, 12:07:41 PM
LOL.  Do you guys seriously believe the college student working at a burger grill story?  Thats um...in a word....amazing.  No wonder you guys don't actually read the links and posts that get posted before making these bizarrely decisive statements.

I do not believe this is midway's true occupation.  It doesnt really matter what he does though.  He is wrong on the issues in any case.

Quote
I see that Riverside hasnt even bothered explaining his thesis that Midway somehow created a work of fiction by posting the article from another website.

My guess is that River hasnt bothered reading the actual post, except to see the graphic at the top of the page, and since River doesnt get online humor, stopped reading.

Actually Stephen, I did read the entire post on the silly blog midway linked to.  And it did not even support midway's contentions.  For the record, midway posted this in his own words:

QuoteRove was whispering into Saakashvili's ear, hoping to precipitate a full blown war between Georgia and Russia, which would divert voter's attention from the economy, and social woes, to reinvigorate the "cold war". If the election can be reframed so that the specter of communism and the USSR can dominate the election, McCain wins. Rove played Saakashvili like an English concertina. that's why he looked like all of his blood had been drained from him when he was standing next to Condi and signing the treaty, because he knew he had been double crossed. So now Rove is formulating US foreign policy as well, which would be a violation of federal law.

I think it is reasonable to ask one who is making such extreme claims to back them up with some evidence.  The fact that midway is unable to do so indicates that the story is wholly false.

Quote
My second guess is that River then didnt even bother googling the subject to see how many other blogs and news sources also carried the story.

This isnt my job.  I am not making the accusation.  You prove your statements and I will prove mine.  This is the way it works.

Quote
My third guess is that River cannot accurately describe the nature of the connection between Rove and Georgia (and McCain's Staffer) as implied by any of the literature.

You describe it if you think it is relevant to the claim that Rove precipitated the Russia-Georgia conflict.  The burden is on you.

Quote
I would go so far as to say that the 1950s era geiger counter that functions as River's brain merely has to hear "Rove" and "Something negative sounding" in the same sentence in order to start making "Danger Will Robinson" signals and engaging the electronic typecaster sequencing.

Another ad hominem attack.

Quote
So River, since you have utterly failed to make or prove your point, I dare you.  No I double dog dare you,  nay----make that triple dog dare you to PROVE that you arent as shallowly knee jerk reacting as appearances would make you and actually DESCRIBE what you believe to be your 'opponent's' thesis and argument are.

Come on, surely on your way to Jacksonville lawyering you took a debate course or two.

You can do it.

My point was that I doubt that the statement above by midway is true.  I asked him to produce some, ANY, evidence that it was.  How do I prove the fact that I would like to see evidence to support his conspiracy theories?   ???

As is the case for most liberals, Rove is the "magnificent bastard" who is the puppetmaster for all things Republican. This is the premise for Midway's claims.

Thus, any sort of rumor that can be conjured which reinforces this illusion of Rove being a manipulative god will be believed wholeheartedly and repeated ad nauseum. Another SOP for liberals and socialists alike: repeat the lie often enough, and it will become truth. When asked for evidence, commence ad hominem attacks and repeat the lie.

Stephen, let me be clear.

I'm not a fan of Rove by any means. However, I think many liberals and media give him more credit (or in this case, more power) than he is due. The man seems to have the persona of the anti-Christ, according to liberal sources and the MSM...well, those are one in the same, but I digress.  ;)

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2008, 01:40:40 PM

QuoteI think it is reasonable to ask one who is making such extreme claims to back them up with some evidence.  The fact that midway is unable to do so indicates that the story is wholly false.

So the idea that I believe that Jesus was divine is wholly false?

I agree with you on this point.  This is a matter of faith.

Quote from: stephendare on August 20, 2008, 01:42:13 PM

Quote from: Charleston native on August 20, 2008, 01:38:52 PM
As is the case for most liberals, Rove is the "magnificent bastard" who is the puppetmaster for all things Republican. This is the premise for Midway's claims.

Thus, any sort of rumor that can be conjured which reinforces this illusion of Rove being a manipulative god will be believed wholeheartedly and repeated ad nauseum. Another SOP for liberals and socialists alike: repeat the lie often enough, and it will become truth. When asked for evidence, commence ad hominem attacks and repeat the lie.

Charleston, Karl Rove is a proven liar and powermonger who has broken more laws than you ever could and gotten away with it.

Do you have to be 'liberal to despise this man?

Do you have to be 'conservative' to despise the lies told by bill clinton?

He is a liar proven by whom?  I really find it amusing the anger that is directed at Rove.  He is just a political strategist and now a television personality.  Liberals love to imagine that there is some evil puppetmaster pulling the strings which results in Republican victory.  They believe that if only the people were not fooled by this trickster they would see the light and vote Democrat.  This is actually believed by many Dems.  It is both sad and funny that they dont realize that they lost the Presidential elections in question because people did not agree with the views of their candidates and/or disliked their candidates.  It is as simple as that.

So, let me see if I get this straight...the EEEVVILLL Bush, Cheney, Rove et al, in order to distract people from Great Depression II, decide to go all "Wag the Dog," and cause a war in a country that 75% of the US couldn't identify on a map, but not before manipulating the market to bring down commodity prices to give their nefarious acts cover?

How many far-left cliches can we pack into one summary? I'm just astounded than any normal thinking person could actually see this and say "hey...that makes sense." I mean...ok, this could be an advance plot summary of the next David Baldacci book. At least then we could treat it as it comes off...utter fiction.

Same question from the other thread...do you actually believe what you post, or do you just like to stir the pot?

Quote from: stephendare on August 22, 2008, 05:23:09 PM
Clem.  Heres a better question.  Do you actually read the goddammed posts or do you share a geiger counter brain with river?

Read my post above and see what I actually think, then perhaps rephrase your silly little screed.

I love it...I post a satirical take on a an insane article, and how do you reply? Personal attack. I think I've figured out your MO on this board...post something either way outside normal thought processes, or over-hyped beyond belief, wait for someone to disagree with it, and the insult them personally without actually considering the argumentation. It may be fun, but it's weak debate.

So first off, my original question still stands - do you actually BELIEVE this stuff? It's a valid question for the debate...if you're just posting to post and stir stuff up, then I know not to waste my time. If you actually believe it, it tells me how seriously I need to dismantle it, as well as the intellectual capacity of the person I'm debating.

More importantly, let me post my "screed" a little less satirical, and see if we can keep up, and tell me how I'm missing the intent of the article.

"With commodity prices exploding, the dollar collapsing, the US leaders are tanking it's economy, bankrupting the economy and dragging the rest of the world down with it. This is obviously bad news in an election year. So in order to distract the country from economic calamity, US leaders needed to come up with a war to focus their energies on. However, a big war, with the economic issues wouldn't mix right, so to provide cover for their war, US leaders manipulated the commodity markets to provide a temporary reprieve, then gave the OK to Georgia to do whatever they wanted."

Did I miss anything here? Any part of the thesis left out?

And more importantly, assuming I'm at least in the ballpark, any attempt at a logical defense of it?

Quote from: stephendare on August 22, 2008, 05:24:08 PM
here to make it easier for you is the post that expresses my own opinion.

OK, awesome...you don't actually believe the article you posted, you just put it out there to stir stuff up. Got it.

Quote from: stephendare on August 22, 2008, 06:07:28 PM
Well I suppose it depends on what you mean by 'stir stuff up'.

I really do approach most of the topics here with an open mind.  I know that I am uninformed about a great many things and that I do not have all or even part of the answers.   By posting things on here, I hope to discuss them intelligently, parse the different ideas, learn new facts and hopefully come to a closer approximation of the truth.

Most of the time, this is the opposite of what actually happens, as there are a few posters on this board who are absolutely not interested in honest debate, but merely in regurgitating talking points which I have already gleaned from the various pundit shows.

On a few occasions I have been greatly informed by the discussion on this board, and have adjusted my own opinions accordingly.

Nuclear Power and the apparently effect of solar activity in our climate change discussions to name a few.

Why do you post?

Is it to hear your own opinions validated and unchallenged?

Ah, one of your closing moves...the "honest open-minded inquirer" approach. With the stridency you approach things, combined with your standard habit of just throwing out article after article after article with no commentary, it's not open-mindedness, it's kicking a hornet's nest.

Also, don't you think it's a little bit of "pot-calling-the-kettle-black" when you claim others just regurgitate talking points? You may want to take a glace at the Eisenhower thread if you need a refresher.

Finally, I resent the implication that that I'm just here to have everyone tell me how smart I am. In other threads, I've certainly made it known that I know what I don't know. But I do know when ideas are stupid, or, if that's too harsh, at least wrong. And all claims to open-mindedness as a virtue to the contrary, when your mind is so open that your brain falls out, that's a problem. Case in point, the article you posted. It is simply a stupid idea that's so far out of the realm of reality to be a joke. But to use it as a source to "support" an extremist point isn't debate, isn't an open-minded search for the truth. It's deliberately provocative at best, intellectually dishonest at worst.

It shouldn't be beyond the realm of fair debate to hear an idea and be able to say "that's just wrong."

I started by Googleing Mike Whitney... try it... nuff said.  Stephen I assume you bolded this portion of the article posted because you find it particularly compelling... you should know better.

QuoteMike Whitney, a popular Internet commentator, observed on August 11:

"Washington’s bloody fingerprints are all over the invasion of South Ossetia. Georgia President Mikhail Saakashvili would never dream of launching a massive military attack unless he got explicit orders from his bosses at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. After all, Saakashvili owes his entire political career to American power-brokers and US intelligence agencies. If he disobeyed them, he’d be gone in a fortnight. Besides an operation like this takes months of planning and logistical support; especially if it’s perfectly timed to coincide with the beginning of the Olympic games. (another petty neocon touch) That means Pentagon planners must have been working hand in hand with Georgian generals for months in advance. Nothing was left to chance."8

It is this "Blame Bush / America first crowd that truly angers me.  The statement above is so full of holes it barely is worth a passing glance.  Mike Whitney is a bomb thrower of the same ilk as those on the right who are so frequently derided here.

QuoteThe bolded portion was actually a carryover from the cut and paste.  I didnt even notice that it was bolded until you pointed it out.

Point taken... my apologies...

QuoteAre "America" and "George Bush" the same thing?

Absolutely not... However you must admit that there are plenty out there who quickly point the finger at Bush or America first before looking at other scenarios...

QuoteIt would be nice to cut out the personal invective and simply debate ideas.  Let the ideas be dumb or smart, not the person.

Most definately on the same page here...

QuoteThis type of discussion is the best part of public debate.  Im sorry that the process has been demeaned and falsified and vulgarized by the terrible partisan hackery that has come to define these threads.

Me too...

Quote from: stephendare on August 22, 2008, 11:19:31 AM

QuoteHe is a liar proven by whom?  I really find it amusing the anger that is directed at Rove.  He is just a political strategist and now a television personality.  Liberals love to imagine that there is some evil puppetmaster pulling the strings which results in Republican victory.  They believe that if only the people were not fooled by this trickster they would see the light and vote Democrat.  This is actually believed by many Dems.  It is both sad and funny that they dont realize that they lost the Presidential elections in question because people did not agree with the views of their candidates and/or disliked their candidates.  It is as simple as that.

Sorry, charlie, but no cigar.

John McCain is neither a democrat nor a liberal, nor was his primary election a 'democratic victory'.

Rove push polled in south carolina deliberately leaving the impression that John McCain had fathered a 'black baby' out of wedlock in the racially infamous state.

This was a lie, it was a deliberate lie, and it is the sleazy kind of politics which apparently you not only approve of, but also practice.

Any proof of Rove's direct involvement?  And, even if true this is a far cry from precipitating a war to aid McCain (his previous nemesis by your own admission).

Quote from: stephendare on August 22, 2008, 05:23:09 PM
Clem.  Heres a better question.  Do you actually read the goddammed posts or do you share a geiger counter brain with river?

Read my post above and see what I actually think, then perhaps rephrase your silly little screed.

Stephen:  Are you capable of having a debate without getting angry and cursing at your opponents?

BTW, I read the post above.  Brzezinski's theory is just that - a theory.  Add to that the fact that he is a HUGE Democrat partisan and it is worthless.  Give me evidence, not theories.

Oh and Brzezinski's advice is horrible.  Under his boss Carter, America saw foreign policy debacle after debacle.  Look for more of the same if your messiah, Obama, is elected.  He even has some of Carter's same guys advising him!

Quote from: stephendare on August 22, 2008, 05:24:08 PM
Its a well known fact that George Sr. handicapped that deal for Reagan during the election campaign.

This is mere speculation that has never been proven.  The truth probably is the Iranians feared Reagan and thought Carter was a joke.

BTW, the article you posted is way out of date.  Commodities are now in a huge sell off and the dollar is strengthening.  You should know this as I posted about it before in another thread.

If by debate you mean agree with you then I do not debate.  If by debate you mean present an alternative set of ideas bolstered by facts, then I debate you quite well thank you.

BTW, I did not correct your language.  I corrected your misstatements of fact.  There is a big difference between the two.

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2008, 01:58:26 PM
You have not presented a single verifiable fact on this thread or many others in weeks.

Just your endless personal attacks and evasions.

When you can come to a debate prepared to learn from others and to be wrong, it will be worth debating you.  In the meantime its just an exercise of you posting nonsense and trying to semanticize your way into sounding like youve made a point.

I am not the one making wild accusations without a shred of evidence.  Bring some proof next time.

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2008, 02:08:00 PM
River, READ THE POSTS and inform yourself.

I did read the posts in question several times.  They contained utter nonsense.  Repeatedly telling me to read to the posts is not the same thing as actually posting evidence of what you claim.

Quote
Be able to tell the difference between a reposting, an original posting, news, opinion and fact.

Check.  I am able to do this.

Quote
Don't bore everyone with your endless explosions of gas.

Who is a "bore" is a matter of subjective opinion.  In any case, I doubt I "bore everyone".

Quote
If you disagree with someone, post why and give reasons.

Check.  I have done this.  Please follow this rule also instead of cursing and calling names when you get challenged on a point.

Quote
Allow room for others to make their points and present additional facts, argument or data.

I have been begging you to post facts and date but all I get is argument.  Why is this?

QuoteYou will find more people willing to post on these threads if you do.

Check.  Lots of people participate now.

Sorry boys, you are both guilty....and BTW, I counted there are more posts bashing Bush, McCain, and Rove than Obama, so any partisan slamming is not coming from the few republicans on this forum.

I say open something up for us independents/libertarians.... we are much more even tempered and have not had anyone in office to tear up...  ;D ;D ;D

Quote from: Clem1029 on August 22, 2008, 02:51:59 PM
So, let me see if I get this straight...the EEEVVILLL Bush, Cheney, Rove et al, in order to distract people from Great Depression II, decide to go all "Wag the Dog," and cause a war in a country that 75% of the US couldn't identify on a map, but not before manipulating the market to bring down commodity prices to give their nefarious acts cover?

How many far-left cliches can we pack into one summary? I'm just astounded than any normal thinking person could actually see this and say "hey...that makes sense." I mean...ok, this could be an advance plot summary of the next David Baldacci book. At least then we could treat it as it comes off...utter fiction.

Same question from the other thread...do you actually believe what you post, or do you just like to stir the pot?

Please define a "normal thinking person". I don't know what that is, exactly. Do you mean a normal, thinking person, or a "normal-thinking" person?

Would you classify the president of Georgia as a "normal thinking person"? If so, why would he implicitly attack a country that could step on him like a cockroach? Just asking. Because if he's not a normal thinking person, that might explain everything. But I'd love to hear an explanation that makes sense, and you sound like the guy who can provide it, so, go forth, be fruitful and multiply.

"here were not that many forces. The Georgians began an air assault on South Osettia, thinking (incredibly) that their good buddy Uncle Sam would be standing right behind them. Because this is what was being whispered to them by McCain's campaign adviser (Scheunemann, who is a lobbyist for Georgia) and Rove. Well, as he found out, uncle was standing behind him, way behind him.

You also have to understand that South Osettia considered itself to be part of Russia. so much so that Russia even issued all passports for South Osettia, so you would either have to be crazy to launch an attack against them, or be sure that the big dog is right behind you.

And by the way, true to form, McCain raised the issue of the Georgia-Russia conflict in his VFW speech today, right on schedule.  the only loser in this is poor Mikhail Shakashvili who learned an expensive lesson indeed."


Actually no you don't have to think that theres a big dog behind you.  You could actually  think that as a soverign country you have the right to maintain your territorial integrity.  I don't care how many forces there were you have to have a plan and a standby order to accomplish this in short order.  A brigade or division or army simply does not move out on a whim.  As far as whether this fight is worth it to georgia, I think they should cut there losses and let the provinces go.  Then after the new russian empires complaints are settled apply for nato membership.  If I 'm the ukraine, my ambassador is immediatly asking for Nato membership.

QuoteEverything which transpired over the last week has been about one issue, and one issue only: the Ukraine. Russia will never let the Ukraine join NATO. Not now, especially as they have the power and the means and quite clearly the will to thwart its accession.

Why is Ukraine important? Other than the key points Ian makes there is one other key point that must be made. Had Charles XII, or Napoleon or Hitler had a Western friendly country with borders less than a few hundred kilometers from Moscow their invasions would have ended in a drastically different fashion. It's called 'strategic depth' and the Russians will never give up the Ukraine for that reason. If you think nations change, well they do, but not nearly as fast as you think. And for the Russians the Mongols, the Swedes, the French and the Germans are still very, very real in their collective memory.

We are at a very dangerous point right now. The US is over-extended and to some extent paralyzed by the election that is upcoming. The next 12 months are the perfect time frame, as Ian notes, for Russia to make it very clear that it will not tolerate a Ukraine in NATO.

It won't happen, and if the West persists, Europe will have some damn cold winters ahead and maybe even a fighting war on its hands.

Stay out of the Ukraine. America has its red-lines; the Israelis have theirs, and so do the Russians. We'd be wise to remember that in all our flag waving jingoistic glory.

http://agonist.org/sean_paul_kelley/20080813/its_all_about_the_ukraine

o you are proposing that the Georgians were acting on the principles of Soveriegnty when they launched measures against South Ossettia

South Ossettia was nominally part of georgia after the break up of the USSR.  However they have had almost no control over the area.  Russia was actually issuing passports for the citizens.  There is a great article on slate .com about South Ossteia, if you want to search for it.  Myself I think that the attempt by Georgia to reassert control was a mistake.  They should simply have let the provinces go, they are majority Russian with little Georgian sypmathies.  However the nasty habit of a greater power to accuse a minor adjoining power of abusing the greater powers ethnic minority has a long history.  Right now I'm sure the Ukraine has concerns about the crimea, 1.  its a major russian port, the only one with access to the Med.  2. The crimea has a majority russian population.  So I wouldn't be surprised to start hearing the same complaints from the russian government.

I hate to agree with you Stephen but I'm afraid you are. 

Quote from: civil42806 on August 24, 2008, 06:40:06 PM
o you are proposing that the Georgians were acting on the principles of Soveriegnty when they launched measures against South Ossettia

South Ossettia was nominally part of georgia after the break up of the USSR.  However they have had almost no control over the area.  Russia was actually issuing passports for the citizens.  There is a great article on slate .com about South Ossteia, if you want to search for it.  Myself I think that the attempt by Georgia to reassert control was a mistake.  They should simply have let the provinces go, they are majority Russian with little Georgian sypmathies.  However the nasty habit of a greater power to accuse a minor adjoining power of abusing the greater powers ethnic minority has a long history.  Right now I'm sure the Ukraine has concerns about the crimea, 1.  its a major russian port, the only one with access to the Med.  2. The crimea has a majority russian population.  So I wouldn't be surprised to start hearing the same complaints from the russian government.

Thanks for quoting me, but next time give attribution, ok?

Not a clue who you are sorry, but thats my opinion

Sorry Stephen, didn't quote him in my response.  I'm well aware of the quote option.  my response was all my own.  If Midway and I agree, well good for us

your correct there Stephen.  I was disturbed by the response by the action of Poland signing an agreement to position antiballistic system to there nation.  Don't have enough knowledge to say whether they will work or not.  But Poland is a member of NATO,  we have a mutual defense agreement, so this shouldn't be controversial.  Yet we have people saying publicly we may have to reconsider this agreement.  That has to shake the confidence of our new eastern europe allies

QuoteLoud Voice, Tiny StickTrying to make sense of Condoleezza Rice's latest statement.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Wednesday, Aug. 20, 2008, at 5:39 PM ET

Condoleezza Rice has said many strange things as secretary of state, but few stranger than this remark at an Aug. 18 press conference onboard her plane en route to Brussels, Belgium:

    Russia is a state that is unfortunately using the one tool that it has always used … when it wishes to deliver a message, and that's its military power. That's not the way to deal in the 21st century.

It would have been mere hypocrisy if Rice had said, as President Bush did in the wake of the assault on Georgia, that invading a sovereign country is "unacceptable in the 21st century." It would have been too clever by at least half had she repeated U.N. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad's protest that the "days of overthrowing leaders by military means in Europeâ€"those days are gone." (It took Jon Stewart to italicize the phrasing's loophole, which implies that coups in other regions may proceed as usual.)

But for America's top diplomat to say that "military power" is no way to deal or deliver messages in the 21st century is simply perplexing. Military power has always been used for these purposes and, alas, always will be. That is, in part, what military power is for. This is International Relations 101.

Rice, who has a Ph.D. in international relations, surely knows this. And the Russians, Georgians, Iraqis, Iranians, Afghans, Pakistanis, Israelis, Lebanese, Iranians, Syrians, North Koreansâ€"all the world leaders whose armed forces have (or have been) shot, strafed, or bombed (or have issued or received threats of such violence in recent years)â€"know that she knows this, too.

And that's the problem. Bush and most of his top officials have now reached the point, if they haven't raced past it long ago, where nobody can afford to believe a single thing they say.

Fro the rest of this article:
http://www.slate.com/id/2198216/

The Russians are definitely not in NATO and they are demonstrating now why we need a missile defense system.  The Democrats of course oppose this reasonable and necessary step to defend America's cities.  What does it matter if we have mass transit care of Obama if we are vaporized?

Stephen, so we should seize the petroleum that Russia lusts for? Or do we start drilling our own oil to make Russia's actions irrelevant?

Those are the only solutions we have at the present time, from what you're saying. Current alternative power sources are inadequate to match the versatile uses and catalytic power of oil.

Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2008, 10:52:58 AM
get off oil.

Invest in clean energy.

It really is that simple.

It is a simple thing to say.  The trouble is we dont have the ability to do this (get off oil) right now.  It should be our eventual goal though, I agree.