Commuter Rail Study Update
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4718-mountainmama0108-flickr.jpg)
As a part of the First Coast Commuter Rail Feasibility Study, Gannett Fleming releases their final station recommendations. These locations will be used to determine potential ridership numbers for commuter rail corridors in Jacksonville
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/870
sweet..cant wait for this to begin implementation. It should be a no brainer when you compare the range of commuter rail to the proposed BRT system!
The study did not mention any cost per mile numbers though. That would be interesting to see.
I'm flabbergasted. I want to jump up and down and yell Hurrah. But of course, in true Jacksonville fashion, I'm sure they will come out against such an idea in favor of something much more ridiculous and expensive.
I don't necessarily buy the argument to not recommend a station at Atlantic Blvd (San Marco Square). Especially when current BRT route maps also don't show a stop there. Wasted opportunity, imo.
Other than that, I'll be interested to learn more about how will they determine ridership numbers. If the rail corridors are considered transit spines, with bus lines feeding riders into it, they'll be decent.
If they don't and assume we'll still have busways running parallel to them, they probably won't, making the entire project unfeasible in JTA's eyes.
As for costs, there's also a lot of room to wiggle there as well. For example, do you start off with a double track system or a single track line with a few passing sidings? This decision alone could add or save hundreds of millions.
Very cool. What about an east/west rail section connecting downtown with the beaches?
Quote from: willydenn on August 15, 2008, 08:30:29 AM
Very cool. What about an east/west rail section connecting downtown with the beaches?
I don't know that there's any track existing to connect the two.
Obviously, there *could* be. These are just the prelims based on existing trackage, right?
How great are those St. Augustine Stops.
QuoteVery cool. What about an east/west rail section connecting downtown with the beaches?
As Doctor K points out, there are no tracks to the east currently in existence. However, someone on this site (Ock maybe?) recently mapped out a potential route from the proposed JTB rail station to the intracoastal using existing power line right-of-ways. The problem is what happens once the route crosses San Pablo Road. The track would have to be built through environmentally sensitive wetlands on either side of the intracoastal, and there is no existing right-of-way through Neptune Beach.
There IS space for a station at JTB and Phillips Hwy. Currently there is some sort of bus station area right ther that could be retro-fit into a bus/train combo complex.
Quote from: rjp2008 on August 15, 2008, 11:54:33 AM
There IS space for a station at JTB and Phillips Hwy. Currently there is some sort of bus station area right ther that could be retro-fit into a bus/train combo complex.
Are you talking about the Park & Ride lot, RJP? In theory, that'd be a great place for just such a thing. However, I think thelakelander pointed out in another related thread that the location of an existing, active railyard right in that vicinity might complicate things relating to the proposed train station in general, let alone a combo-facility.
It would, however, be awesome: Just think: I could drive over to that former park-n-ride lot-turned-transit station, catch the train to the Transportation Center, then hop on a downtown PCT trolley to the stadium. Or better yet, the finally-extended Skyway!
Baby steps. That would be awesome.
Quote from: Traveller on August 15, 2008, 10:49:50 AM
QuoteVery cool. What about an east/west rail section connecting downtown with the beaches?
As Doctor K points out, there are no tracks to the east currently in existence. However, someone on this site (Ock maybe?) recently mapped out a potential route from the proposed JTB rail station to the intracoastal using existing power line right-of-ways. The problem is what happens once the route crosses San Pablo Road. The track would have to be built through environmentally sensitive wetlands on either side of the intracoastal, and there is no existing right-of-way through Neptune Beach.
There's a larger, more expensive problem. All of that land is private property and would have to be purchased. Rail to the Beaches would easily cost a couple of billion. We need to focus on getting a cheaper starter line up first and expand out from there.
I am excited about being able to go to the airport and to St. Augustine without getting into my car.
That would be nice. Such a service would definately begin to change the traditional growth patterns of our region.
Charlotte's new rail system is transforming a place more spread out than Jax, into a walkable community overnight. Here's an image snapped in South End (a booming TOD area south of Uptown) a week ago.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/lakelander/P1130877.jpg)
If we can properly integrate transit with existing neighborhoods and revised zoning ordinances, the same can happen here. All we need is a little coordinated vision.
I LOVE this, I hope it really happens.
HOWEVER, i don't understand is why UNF is not a stop?? There are tons of college kids that live on campus without cars that would use this system! They could even make the ticket machines accept OspreyCards! Gah!!! Come on JTA!!!
p.s. OspreyCards are UNF IDs which students (or parents) can upload money onto.
Quote from: happical on August 15, 2008, 03:05:27 PM
I LOVE this, I hope it really happens.
HOWEVER, i don't understand is why UNF is not a stop?? There are tons of college kids that live on campus without cars that would use this system! They could even make the ticket machines accept OspreyCards! Gah!!! Come on JTA!!!
The major fault of this would most likely have to fall on the shoulders of those who decided to relocate UNF's campus from the downtown core to its current location, a few decades ago. Now the campus is located in a remote spot and surrounded by wetlands that can only be reached by car.
The JTA commuter rail study only focuses on taking advantage of existing rail corridors. In the short term, if Jax ever wants rail, we're going to have to pick a spot to get started, start small and agressively expand as the system grows in popularity. The most affordable options will be in areas where existing tracks already exists and in spots where there's decent population density and walkable destinations. Unfortunately for UNF, unless the city is willing to fund a multi-billion dollar system (highly doubtful) its location puts it in a position of where it will have to be a part of some long range new alignment or BRT/express bus connection via JTB.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2008, 03:15:06 PM
The major fault of this would most likely have to fall on the shoulders of those who decided to relocate UNF's campus from the downtown core to its current location, a few decades ago. Now the campus is located in a remote spot and surrounded by wetlands that can only be reached by car.
It's also worth noting that UNF's current "master plan" specifically promotes the fact that the campus is auto-dependent, and cut off from all other development. They strongly wish to maintain the ring of woods surrounding campus, and not directly connect themselves with other Southside developments. So don't expect UNF to change anytime soon.
Anyway, back on topic, I'm glad to see that the commuter rail study is still moving forward. I still hope that economic realities will eventually force the city to abandon BRT in favor of commuter rail.
Honestly, I can't think of a single sane reason why anyone would attempt the current BRT plan instead of this commuter rail route. (Except for the painfully obvious subtext that a BRT line could be cannibalized into highway HOV lanes - which is probably the only real reason that BRT ever gained traction in the first place)
My ultimate fear is that JTA would consider attempting to do both, side by side, thus ruining the ridership potential for BRT and rail. These things have to complement each other. Imo, this means BRT lanes should provide direct access to areas where tracks don't exist. Currently, only the Arlington/Regency BRT route does this. The others all parallel the rail lines shown in this study.
Best case scenerio: Scrap 3 of 4 BRT routes, implement the three rail corridors and use BRT/Express bus routes on streets like Arlington Expressway (service drives), 103rd, JTB, Busch, Airport Center, etc.
^
8 Shades of Brilliance, sir. Since they already have "Air JTA," they could simply run regular buses from the proposed Duval Rd/Airport/(whatever the heck the name of that outdoor mall is) Station up to the Airport and still use the monicker.
BRT Stops along JTB near each arterial interchange (San Pablo, Kernan, Gate, Southpoint) feeding into the aforementioned stop at JTB/Philips. Brilliant.
Since we're dreaming/envisioning, would the 'Arlington Expressway' BRT route stop at Regency, or run the length of Atlantic out towards the Beaches? I mean for a 'starter' route?
And would it be feasible to run one down the length of Beach as well? Or would the parallel so close to Atlantic and JTB prove to be overkill?
Quote from: Joe on August 15, 2008, 03:39:50 PM
It's also worth noting that UNF's current "master plan" specifically promotes the fact that the campus is auto-dependent, and cut off from all other development. They strongly wish to maintain the ring of woods surrounding campus, and not directly connect themselves with other Southside developments. So don't expect UNF to change anytime soon.
Its kind of hard to connect to other development when the "ring of woods" is comprised of wetlands and environmentally preserved land.
It is a great plan, I agree. I am a little disappointed that they chose the FCCJ Kent Campus as a stop (which is sort of isolated on the edge of Avondale next to Roosevelt) rather than Edgewood Avenue site as a stop (which would tie Avondale and Murray Hill into the system. Otherwise, I am very pleased with it and hope this moves forward as soon as possible.
On the topic of the eventual line to the Beaches, maybe the electrical right of ways are wide enough to add transit too. Is this possible, Ock? I agree with Lake though that we need to focus on getting the initial lines built first and worry about that later.
Quote from: RiversideGator on August 15, 2008, 05:00:11 PM
It is a great plan, I agree. I am a little disappointed that they chose the FCCJ Kent Campus as a stop (which is sort of isolated on the edge of Avondale next to Roosevelt) rather than Edgewood Avenue site as a stop (which would tie Avondale and Murray Hill into the system. Otherwise, I am very pleased with it and hope this moves forward as soon as possible.
I missed this one. I'm disappointed with this as well. Imo, Edgewood is ideal for an urban rail stop. On the other hand, its understandable that FCCJ Kent would become a popular stop during school hours. This may be a situation where two nearby stations make sense.
QuoteOn the topic of the eventual line to the Beaches, maybe the electrical right of ways are wide enough to add transit too. Is this possible, Ock? I agree with Lake though that we need to focus on getting the initial lines built first and worry about that later.
From my analysis, the electrical right of ways aren't right-of-ways. A significant portion are easements over private property. Near Baymeadows this private property serves as parking for office complexes. There's also no direct connection between the FEC tracks and the nearest electrical substation, unless we blaze a path through an industrial plant. Once you get near the beaches, the JEA easements travel into upscale single family homes and environmentally sensitive areas. Could it be done? Sure, but it will cost a pretty penny. With that said, at least in the short term, there are more feasible options out there.
Quote from: Doctor_K on August 15, 2008, 04:28:02 PM
Since we're dreaming/envisioning, would the 'Arlington Expressway' BRT route stop at Regency, or run the length of Atlantic out towards the Beaches? I mean for a 'starter' route?
An initial line to Regency, as JTA suggests, would be fine. However, it makes little economic sense to build it elevated in the center of the Arlington Expressway, when there are service roads already in place. A cheaper way to get BRT to Regency would be to convert both service roads to one-way streets and use the right lanes for BRT. The major expense here would be repainting lines and changing signs and traffic signals. With the money saved, we could then use a portion to build an additional overpass or two between Arlington Road and Southside Blvd. This would allow auto and foot traffic to cross Arlington Expressway without driving a mile or two in the wrong direction to do so. This would also solve the issue of people crossing the Arlington Expressway on foot.
QuoteAnd would it be feasible to run one down the length of Beach as well? Or would the parallel so close to Atlantic and JTB prove to be overkill?
It would have been nice if the new lanes on Beach were built as BRT. Now dedicated lanes on Beach would mean road expansion, so that may not be feasible. However, there's no reason Beach can't be used for express bus service. If the rail corridors are used as mass transit spines, it would then allow us to take all of our existing bus service and reduce headways to areas like the beach and UNF, since those lines would not have to travel to the downtown hub. Instead they would feed their riders into the nearest rail station.
So many brilliant comments, I don't know where to start! I agree that JTA needs to think of mass transit as a whole. All different modes of transportation must compliment each other, not duplicate service. I guess that seems like economic common sense to me. BRT should be reserved for areas heading east and west where building rail lines is not financially feasible at this time (Arlington, Beach, JTB etc).
I'm not sure how they will get statistics for potential ridership, but I believe that most people with a choice would rather ride rail instead of bus. The ultimate potential for commuter rail will only be reached if JTA works out the rail station connections to surrounding neighborhoods. Will they rework bus lines to create more access? Initially most people won't be able to walk to the train station, although as we see in Charlotte, Denver and many other cities around the US, rail stations create a lot of residential development within walking distance. Parking lots are helpful but there must be many other options. An example would be covered bike racks so you could ride your bike to and from the station. Downtown should have it's streetcar line from the station to the stadium etc.
JTA should be putting all it's resources into getting our rail starter line. It would be a HUGE deal and jump start our city.
if we get this commuter rail and nothing else I will be satified for a long time. However as mass transit build on itself the more you do the better the return.
(http://www.hopetunnel.org/subway/sea/010901/87-pw100.jpg)
A retired "Brill Bullet" car in NJ, these once ran to the Beach in Ohio at 100 MPH plus and had room for beach balls, and a lounge!!
While I am collecting confidential information and interviews at a dizy rate, all I can say is hold on to your seats and get excited... IN FACT... GET VERY EXCITED!
I might be making a major move myself here in the next few and I'll let you know when we go public with it, meanwhile, watch for streetcars to get the fast-track treatment and bump BRT to feeder status.
They told me to think big... So I mentioned San Marco streetcars... bigger... so we covered Riverside and the Stadium... not even warm yet? Your kidding? REALLY? This thing is moving faster then a Cincinnati and Lake Erie Electric Railway RED DEVIL, racing an airplane... We're winning this one y'all. Keep watching for the latest news, but I'm here to tell you this is HUGE and very serious.
My promise? Well should I end up as part of the planning/management team, you can bet we plan to hit the ground RUNNING! (I refuse to oppose common sense) Just take heart, and raise the battle emblem, it's time to slay the dragons.
OCKLAWAHA
How am I supposed to sleep now?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 16, 2008, 11:35:29 PM
While I am collecting confidential information and interviews at a dizy rate, all I can say is hold on to your seats and get excited... IN FACT... GET VERY EXCITED!
I might be making a major move myself here in the next few and I'll let you know when we go public with it, meanwhile, watch for streetcars to get the fast-track treatment and bump BRT to feeder status.
They told me to think big... So I mentioned San Marco streetcars... bigger... so we covered Riverside and the Stadium... not even warm yet? Your kidding? REALLY? This thing is moving faster then a Cincinnati and Lake Erie Electric Railway RED DEVIL, racing an airplane... We're winning this one y'all. Keep watching for the latest news, but I'm here to tell you this is HUGE and very serious.
My promise? Well should I end up as part of the planning/management team, you can bet we plan to hit the ground RUNNING! (I refuse to oppose common sense) Just take heart, and raise the battle emblem, it's time to slay the dragons.
OCKLAWAHA
Wow! Very exciting news. I hope you are not just messing with us about this. ;D
If Peyton is smart, he could latch onto rail transit (commuter rail and streetcars) and make implementing this the signature accomplishment for which he is known. Every Mayor has had a signature project and this would be a great one for Peyton. In fact, if he can get what Ock suggests done (or even just stay out of the way), all would be forgiven. ;D
Quote from: RiversideGator on August 16, 2008, 11:48:38 PM
If Peyton is smart, he could latch onto rail transit (commuter rail and streetcars) and make implementing this the signature accomplishment for which he is known. Every Mayor has had a signature project and this would be a great one for Peyton. In fact, if he can get what Ock suggests done (or even just stay out of the way), all would be forgiven. ;D
You are so right. History would be so kind to him if he could glom onto this.
Wow - this is about as good as I could hope for. The two biggest things left off (at least that I can see), UNF and the beaches, are cost-prohibitive as others have already addressed. However, I think both UNF and the beaches are both perfect to be served by BRT/express bus. I think people would prefer to take a train to the beaches, however a clean and efficient BRT would suffice, IMO.
Let's hope JTA continues to move toward these ideas.
Your news Ock is very refreshing. I can't wait for the "big" announcement! The news will be positive, uplifting and bring a sense of hope back to our city. Perhaps in the next year or two we will stop hearing awful phrases like "project delayed" and "indefinitely delayed." I love that you've been instructed to think big.
Hey Ock...when you're "thinking big," will you be sure that the "little people" who have done so much to keep the urban core alive today are looked out for?
The folks whose homes are in the area of proposed stations in San Marco -- the Emerson/Philips station vs. one at the, not-yet-PUD-approved site of the massive Jackson Sq. apartment/retail complex -- implore those who are considering the station locations to look VERY thoughtfully at the neighborhood impact of a station at River Oaks Road.
This little barely two-lane street with cars parked along it making it a one-lane street, 1) can't handle the cut-through traffic that cripples it today, 2) is already nervous about the doubling of traffic on the street if the PUD for this massive 900+ unit apartment/retail complex is approved as submitted with no restrictions for their traffic and safety impact by the city council in the coming weeks.
The best solution is to close the railroad crossing at River Oaks -- it's dangerous and overcrowded today, and closing it will certainly help maintain the safety of the single-family homes on the west side of those tracks. The neighbors overwhelmingly support the closure, as do FEC Railroad and FDOT.
Also, putting a commuter rail station in at Emerson will significantly reduce the cut through traffic that other small neighborhood roads in San Marco -- Lorimier, Dunsford, etc. -- would have to deal with if a station went in at Jackson Square. An Emerson station makes infinitely more sense from a neighborhood impact perspective.
And, after all, what good will the commuter rail/TOD effort be if the result is to force those who already live in the single family homes in the urban core to move OUT of these neighborhoods because of traffic and safety concerns? The small streets in San Marco simply can't handle the traffic increases. They were never designed to, and any improvements to those streets will include widening, which will put homes mere feet from active arteries, where there used to be yards for kids to play in, there'll be parking pads for cars and utility vehicles.
Sure, build the commuter rail system...but build it smartly, please.
When and if Jackson Sq. is built commuter rail would alleviate traffic not add to it. I agree we do not want to see residential roads widened. Keep traffic slow in residential areas to add to the quality of life and limit "cut through routes".
I do wish the developers would offer some assurances to the current residents about their concerns.
Number one item, "I'm NOT Kidding!!"
Number two item, This is going to stun even the movers and shakers of this board, in fact, rather like grabbing hold of a 600 volt dc wire! What is in the tubes is stunning, even for a city like ______________ (fill in the blank) it is STUNNING! QuoteThe two biggest things left off (at least that I can see), UNF and the beaches, are cost-prohibitive as others have already addressed
As I said, STUNNING, so don't bet the farm on ANYTHING yet. OCKLAWAHA
dammit, Ock!! You made me change my underwear twice already...
can't wait to hear what your news is once it's finalized.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 17, 2008, 06:50:38 PM
Number one item, "I'm NOT Kidding!!"
Number two item, This is going to stun even the movers and shakers of this board, in fact, rather like grabbing hold of a 600 volt dc wire! What is in the tubes is stunning, even for a city like ______________ (fill in the blank) it is STUNNING!
QuoteThe two biggest things left off (at least that I can see), UNF and the beaches, are cost-prohibitive as others have already addressed
As I said, STUNNING, so don't bet the farm on ANYTHING yet.
OCKLAWAHA
(http://www.tramvia.org/tranvias-spain/alacant04.jpg)
Now here is an interesting, thinking mans image of the Tram Alicante Metropolitano in Spain. If thinking like this doesn't light your fire, your wood's wet.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 17, 2008, 05:40:15 PM
When and if Jackson Sq. is built commuter rail would alleviate traffic not add to it. I agree we do not want to see residential roads widened. Keep traffic slow in residential areas to add to the quality of life and limit "cut through routes".
I do wish the developers would offer some assurances to the current residents about their concerns.
I wish someone could explain the "commuter rail will alleviate traffic" statement as it relates to the neighborhoods surrounding rail/bus stations.
I GET that it will hopefully take cars off the major roads, but people who live more than a few blocks' walk away (1/2 mile or more) from a station WILL take their car to the station to hop the ride - to St. Augustine, to Riverside, to wherever the line goes.
For instance, for a San Marco station -- think about how people in San Marco (near the Square), St. Nicholas, Miramar, and Grenada would get to the station. They would drive there, park their cars, ride the rail/bus, then get back in their cars and go the few miles home.
To get to a Jackson Sq. station, their cars would go have to go down small streets - River Oaks mainly, but also Lorimier and Dunsford - to get to the station. And they'd be doing that while all of the other cut-through commuters are doing the same thing. On River Oaks, with a traffic light on one end and a railroad crossing on the other -- the likelihood of gridlock is high. Again, there are cars parked along this little road and it's a maze today. Put 100+ more cars on it and the nightmare scenario becomes real...every day. Twice a day. And that's NOT COUNTING the 900+ apartment dwellers and retail shoppers going to/from the development.
On the other hand, if there was a station at Emerson, the commuter traffic would be traveling down the appropriately-sized streets -- Emerson, Philips, St. Augustine -- to get to that station.
The developer would do well to be honest and forthright about the impact their behemoth of a development is going to have on small neighborhoods nearby and do all in their power to take concrete steps to lessen the negative impact.
I don't see why there is an assumption that traffic from Jackson Square will go through the neighborhoods...
If coming from/to downtown, I would use 95 to US 1....if coming from the northern part of San Marco, I would use Atlantic to US 1....and if coming from the south, I would use Emerson to US 1.
It seems to me that the main people who would use River Oaks are those who live on it!
As for driving to commuter rail stations, this won't be an option at some of the stations because they will have limited (if any) parking....what likely happens is JTA redesigns the bus system to serve as feeder routes to the commuter rail system.
Simple solution here. Just close the River Oaks crossing. If this is done, traffic would then use Old St. Augustine Road, Atlantic Blvd and Philips Highway to access Jackson Square and whatever else would be going there.
Also, from the commuter rail station list, stops at Jackson Square and San Marco were not recommended. The closest conceptual potential rail stop would be Emerson and one near Aetna on the Southbank. I guess this means they hope Jackson Square will become a BTOD (BRT TOD).
Last but not least, all rail stations don't have to come with park and ride lots. An urban station relying on walk up traffic (generally those within 1/4 mile walk of a station) would not increase automobile traffic on any side streets.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 17, 2008, 09:09:33 PM
I don't see why there is an assumption that traffic from Jackson Square will go through the neighborhoods...
If coming from/to downtown, I would use 95 to US 1....if coming from the northern part of San Marco, I would use Atlantic to US 1....and if coming from the south, I would use Emerson to US 1.
It seems to me that the main people who would use River Oaks are those who live on it!
Here's hoping that in the near future - once that dangerous, overcrowded crossing is closed -- the people who live on River Oaks will become the only ones who need to use it.
In the meantime, you're invited to come on over some weekday between 7-9 a.m. and 4-6 p.m. and watch the "real" traffic for yourself. Even without the "attraction" of Jackson Sq, we've got traffic coming from Mandarin, San Jose and all points across San Marco using River Oaks b/c it's a "convenient" cut-through to Philips/95.
Quote from: southerngirl on August 17, 2008, 08:41:00 PM
I wish someone could explain the "commuter rail will alleviate traffic" statement as it relates to the neighborhoods surrounding rail/bus stations.
If the 900 apartment dwellers use the train instead of cars you won't have as much traffic as without the rail. If the single family homes use the rail the commutes will only be a few minutes in the car. If the shopping at Jackson sq. is a destination people can reach by rail less will use cars. No development would have the least traffic but in this growing city that is not an option.
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 17, 2008, 10:05:03 PM
Quote from: southerngirl on August 17, 2008, 08:41:00 PM
I wish someone could explain the "commuter rail will alleviate traffic" statement as it relates to the neighborhoods surrounding rail/bus stations.
If the 900 apartment dwellers use the train instead of cars you won't have as much traffic as without the rail. If the single family homes use the rail the commutes will only be a few minutes in the car. If the shopping at Jackson sq. is a destination people can reach by rail less will use cars. No development would have the least traffic but in this growing city that is not an option.
Sorry, but that logic just doesn't work.
1. Be honest: do you think all 900+ apartment dwellers are going to use the train/bus? The proposed commuer rail designs I've seen are extremely exciting, but they do not and cannot reach all corners of this city/area where people work, or shop, or go to the doctor. There will not be a mass conversion to rail only.
2. The people who live in San Jose, Miramar, etc. and want to visit the retail shops at Jackson Sq. will not HAVE rail/bus to use to get to it. They'll have to drive. AND THEY WILL USE RIVER OAKS to do so.
The solution: Just close the River Oaks crossing. If people want to get to Jackson Square by car, they'll use Philips and other major connectors to reach the destination. If River Oaks residents want to walk to Jackson Square, they still can.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 17, 2008, 06:50:38 PM
Number one item, "I'm NOT Kidding!!"
Number two item, This is going to stun even the movers and shakers of this board, in fact, rather like grabbing hold of a 600 volt dc wire! What is in the tubes is stunning, even for a city like ______________ (fill in the blank) it is STUNNING!
QuoteThe two biggest things left off (at least that I can see), UNF and the beaches, are cost-prohibitive as others have already addressed
As I said, STUNNING, so don't bet the farm on ANYTHING yet.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock: Any word on when the announcement will be made? PM me if necessary.
Quote from: southerngirl on August 17, 2008, 10:21:19 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on August 17, 2008, 10:05:03 PM
Quote from: southerngirl on August 17, 2008, 08:41:00 PM
I wish someone could explain the "commuter rail will alleviate traffic" statement as it relates to the neighborhoods surrounding rail/bus stations.
If the 900 apartment dwellers use the train instead of cars you won't have as much traffic as without the rail. If the single family homes use the rail the commutes will only be a few minutes in the car. If the shopping at Jackson sq. is a destination people can reach by rail less will use cars. No development would have the least traffic but in this growing city that is not an option.
Sorry, but that logic just doesn't work.
1. Be honest: do you think all 900+ apartment dwellers are going to use the train/bus? The proposed commuer rail designs I've seen are extremely exciting, but they do not and cannot reach all corners of this city/area where people work, or shop, or go to the doctor. There will not be a mass conversion to rail only.
2. The people who live in San Jose, Miramar, etc. and want to visit the retail shops at Jackson Sq. will not HAVE rail/bus to use to get to it. They'll have to drive. AND THEY WILL USE RIVER OAKS to do so.
The rail would only lessen the impact of this development (alleviate). I hope I do not sound insensitive to your traffic concerns because I think the development should be very concerned with it's impact on the people already near by. I like Lake's solution.
P.S. Commuter rail would also allow some who already drive in proximity to the neighborhood to fly right by.
Regarding the debate regarding Emerson vs. Jackson Square: Commuter rail traditionally relies on parking lots to collect passengers over a larger, broader service area---more so than any other transit mode. That can add to traffic on streets leading to stations. So the argument about putting stations on major roads that can more readily absorb traffic than neighborhood streets is a good one.
But Jackson Square is proposed as a "transit-oriented development" (TOD)---concentrating residential and commericial development in a pedestrian-friendly environment centered around transit. Bringing traffic into a neighborhood site does not sound pedestrian-friendly, any more than placing a big commuter parking lot in the middle of a TOD.
The better solution may be not "either/or" but "both." Put a commuter parking lot at Emerson to collect people driving from further out and put a platform with no parking at all at Jackson Square for people going to or coming from the TOD.
One size does not always fit all.
When can we expect to hear about the second phase of Gannett Fleming's rail study?
We'll have another Commuter Rail update article on the front page either tomorrow or on Tuesday. It will focus on ridership numbers, service frequencies and capital costs for each corridor.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 19, 2008, 05:53:30 AM
We'll have another Commuter Rail update article on the front page either tomorrow or on Tuesday. It will focus on ridership numbers, service frequencies and capital costs for each corridor.
COol! I'm lookin forward to that. But I was curious about the consulting firm itself...when will they be following up on their initial study findings?
The update we'll run will be a summary of the consultant's latest findings.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 19, 2008, 01:50:20 PM
The update we'll run will be a summary of the consultant's latest findings.
Oh, ok. thanks. Wonder why I didnt hear about this from any other outlets. I'll try to google for it now.