Suburban Infill: Atlantic Crossings
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5882-p1130469.JPG)
Atlantic Crossings represents a style of suburban infill development that should be encouraged in Jacksonville.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/859
How is this development different from any other apartment complex or condo development anywhere in jacksonville? This is not a walkable community. it is a collection of medium density residences located in close proximity to each other. Where is the grocery, the retail center, the movie theatre, the hospital, the dentist, the mechanic? Where are any of the things necessary to sustain a community?
I get a little tired of everyone constantly looking for the singular shreds of decent design in this city and forgetting that good design, good urban design, needs to take into consideration the WHOLE PICTURE, not just one or two elements that could one day many years from now be included in a walkable community, if one is ever actually planned and implemented in this city (doubtful). Let's be real here. These new developments are nothing more than the same old s*%t being passed off as something new for the media.
If this project was designed properly, there would be proper site lighting to be able to safely walk around at night time. Take another look at the application photos and try to spot the lighting - it's like finding Waldo. This developer went cheap and "value engineered" the lighting right out of the project - typical of a developer only looking at how to lower the cost of installation without the typical person noticing the corners that were cut. Lighting is crutial to a residential development that sits right in the middle of a business park. Let's check back in a year and see how many vehicles were broken into and number of 911 calls made... Great job looking out for the occupant's safety.
This property is actiually walkable distance from Tinseltown and a few car dealerships. So if you like to eat, watch movies and buy Buicks and Hyundais, there are a lot of things you can do. Grocery store is a distance away, easy on a bicycle though. I would live there if they didnt have those faux balconys. Also those floorplans are not clever at all, very generic! I am not a big fan of kitchens with no windows.
All they have is a slightly different parking space layout. Everything is the same old s*%t...
Great observations that point to a larger problem, one that is outside of the individual developer's control. We, as a city have to get to the point where certain things should be a standard with all developments. Proper site lighting, inter-connectivity (as opposed to forcing drivers to one access/exit point), limited building setbacks and rear parking should all be requirements. As for forcing every little development to have a mix of retail/residential uses, that may be impractical. Are there any cities out there that even require this? If so, they would make for a great case study. Atlantic Crossings should be recognized for its site layout. Its a start in an area of town where most similar developments do much worse.
The only "walkability requirement" I have for condo/apartment communities is a big circular lake in the center with a path around it. "Montreaux" for example - not completely, but an attempt at it. Nothing enhances property value more, and nothing invites people to live there more, especially with a sunset exposure! You have to sacrifice space for the lake, but the return is a superior quality product.
The second thing I like to see is a big private patio on units. None of these skimpy little patches of concrete - make a real patio - this is Florida after all and we do get a lot of sunshine!
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The second thing I like to see is a big private patio on units. None of these skimpy little patches of concrete - make a real patio - this is Florida after all and we do get a lot of sunshine!
And these don't even have patios, per se. Just a wannabe Juliet Balcony.
What Archiphreak and I mean by a walkable community is where one can do more than walk around in circles. It would help if the neighbourhood had a good stretch to walk on to unwind and relax, but in the true sense it would be better if you could do more activities without requiring to use your car. That would make you more independent and increase human interraction leading to a better quality of life.
I think the most opposition to this post is towards the glorification of a different layout and calling it something it is not. It is also hard to expect a very walkable community in an Edge City. Walkscore.com came up with a score of 40 out of 100 for this neighbourhood making it Car-dependent.
QuoteWhat Archiphreak and I mean by a walkable community is where one can do more than walk around in circles. It would help if the neighbourhood had a good stretch to walk on to unwind and relax, but in the true sense it would be better if you could do more activities without requiring to use your car. That would make you more independent and increase human interraction leading to a better quality of life.
Agreed. However, it takes time to develop areas like this. The most walkable neighborhoods in Jacksonville are also some of the oldest, most well established. Archiphreak made reference to such services as a grocery, retail center, movie theatre, hospital, dentist, and mechanic. A developer can't build all of these services. I feel that a development like this at least has the opportunity of becoming a true "walkable community" sometime in the near future, unlike many suburban subdivisions located on the fringe in which residents will be relegated to using an automobile for decades to come which has seemed to be the trend in Jacksonville.
I understand where Abhishek and Archiphreak are coming from. However, I also believe it takes more than one individual development to turn a sprawling hell hole into a true walkable community. Imo, you have to start somewhere. Tapestry Park and Atlantic Crossings are stabs at it, but both also prove a larger plan is needed to convert what is already there. For example, you could stick Atlantic Crossings next to the Parks @ Cathedral and it would fit like a glove within that landscape. Stick it on Gate Parkway and the impact is not as strong because the other developments aren't required to follow suit.
On the city's part, we have to stop allowing developments that place a higher priority on automobile than the pedestrian. Jacksonville has to develop a plan and stick to its guns. Will things change overnight? Most likely not. But if you start now, perhaps in a decade or so, its possible to change the atmosphere.
As for Walkscore, it rated Timberlin Park (off Southside Blvd) as 51 or "somewhat walkable". I disagree 100% with the "somewhat walkable" score, but figure they rated that high because its behind a Target and Home Depot.
Lake, you and I are mostly of the same mind. I agree that we, as a city and a community at large, need to start somewhere. But there is a difference between an honest start at more serious urban design and putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig no matter how much lipstick you put on her.
To the comment about the walkable communities in Jax all being old: it's because they were designed that way from the start. Riverside had it's own grocers, butchers, tailors, mechanics, hospital, dentist, eye doctor, you name it it was all right there for you. Mind you this was in an age before the automobile blew up and became the only "sensible mode of transport". Springfield used to stretch all the way to what we call "the north side". there was a street car that ran the whole length into downtown. These are old neighborhoods simply because no one has left them for the "convenience" of the suburbs. Trying to take a development in the middle of no where on Atlantic Blvd and trying to make it "walkable" is just silly. Someone said it was easy enough to get to a grocery by bike. Who in their right mind would ever try to cross any street at any intersection on a bicycle east of arlington!!?? that's suicide, man! Has no one heard about the guy that just died on a bike crossing an average intersection?!
Until the city takes a real look at the infrastructure of our communities and pushes for real urban development we should not be praising the "attempts" of developers to make more "walkable" communities. We should be denouncing them for what they are: very pretty, very done up, very large pigs. It's the same s*%t on a different day. No real change is being made in this city. Even BRT looks like it's going to go through. And then we'll have the same downtown we had 10 years ago. A ghost town.
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Even BRT looks like it's going to go through.
SUCKAGE! I thought MetroJax and community had made a big enough stink to make JTA pause and rethink BRT!?
@ cline
I agree this is not an overnight change. There is also not much effort seen towards this change.
@ thelakelander
I think a better walkable neighbourhood in the same vicinity are the complexes on touchton (between southside and belfort). There are restaurants, mechanics and a Publix within walkable distance but there are barely any sidewalks to walk on. That road has a ditch on either side for a shoulder, so good luck riding your bicycle on it. Walkscore.com gave it a 58 which is somewhat walkable.
We do need to be much more considerate towards pedestrians and bicycle traffic in building roads and communities. Not just safe walking and bicycling paths but also proximity to businesses.
@archiphreak
I wouldnt go grocery shopping on a bicycle in Arlington too, but that particular neighbourhood isint bad for bicycle travel. I know because I live 3 miles from it and I ride to the movie theather on some weekends. I disagree with the glorification of Atlantic Crossing as a walkable neighbourhood and I am with you on that. These so called attempts should get no praises.
Quote from: Doctor_K on August 05, 2008, 11:27:39 AM
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Even BRT looks like it's going to go through.
SUCKAGE! I thought MetroJax and community had made a big enough stink to make JTA pause and rethink BRT!?
We successfully kept BRT off Forsyth, Adams and Bay Streets. There will still be bus rapid transit lanes down Jefferson and Broad, but BRT in general isn't a bad thing. It gets bad when we attempt to use it as a replacement for rail, instead of being a complement to rail and we're willing to spend millions more for it than going with rail in the first place. So for this angle, we saved the core from this boondoggle, but we still have our work cut out for us to stop/alter the legs stretching out of downtown.
QuoteLake, you and I are mostly of the same mind. I agree that we, as a city and a community at large, need to start somewhere. But there is a difference between an honest start at more serious urban design and putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig no matter how much lipstick you put on her.
It is only lipstick because of its proximity to Southside Boulevard. Like Lake said, if you put this next to the Parks at the Cathedral or 1661 then people would love it. BUT, what if the city decided that they wanted to take drastic measures in the Tinseltown area and reduce Southside Blvd to two lanes with large medians and sidewalks on both sides and ample crosswalks. I know it is a long shot but these sort of changes could make the Tinseltown area into the type of walkable community you are referring to. There are shops, jobs, housing etc. all within walking/biking distance. It would take vision but could be done. It less about what the residence looks like and more about placemaking.
You guys are killing me...funny posts. This living looks like the Back Bay in Boston. Sure, there are cars. Not everybody wants to live, or can afford to live, at a TOD mixed use new development. Would retail work on the bottom floor there? Nope. Nice parking however. If I was transient and wanted to be centrally located, I'd consider this place.
Quote@archiphreak
I wouldnt go grocery shopping on a bicycle in Arlington too, but that particular neighbourhood isint bad for bicycle travel. I know because I live 3 miles from it and I ride to the movie theather on some weekends. I disagree with the glorification of Atlantic Crossing as a walkable neighbourhood and I am with you on that. These so called attempts should get no praises.
So would you rather see the typical apartment complex layout in that location?
I agree that this development is not the perfect example of smart walkable growth but it is most definitely a refreshing step in the right direction.
@ Jason
What direction is that? Atlantic Crossing does not resemble a 'walkable' neighbourhood as it has wide sidewalks and a different style of parking. The parking is at the back to cater to foot traffic but there isint a lot of locations for the foot traffic to go to.
A regular old condo complex would be just as good.
The opposition is not towards the building of the neighbourhood but towards the claim that it is a walkable neighbourhood. The claim has been made in the post. The website of Atlantic Crossing portrays this idea as well as you can walk to the town center etc. Here is a good website to see what makes a neighbourhood walkable: http://www.walkscore.com/walkable-neighborhoods.shtml
I think we should stop trying to simulate urban-downtown-like environments in an Edge City. To truly create an urban environment, developers and the city need to come together towards one common vision, not an individual effort like that of Atlantic Crossing's.
Quote from: Abhishek on August 05, 2008, 02:17:36 PM
@ Jason
What direction is that? Atlantic Crossing does not resemble a 'walkable' neighbourhood as it has wide sidewalks and a different style of parking. The parking is at the back to cater to foot traffic but there isint a lot of locations for the foot traffic to go to.
A regular old condo complex would be just as good.
The opposition is not towards the building of the neighbourhood but towards the claim that it is a walkable neighbourhood. The claim has been made in the post. The website of Atlantic Crossing portrays this idea as well as you can walk to the town center etc. Here is a good website to see what makes a neighbourhood walkable: http://www.walkscore.com/walkable-neighborhoods.shtml
I think we should stop trying to simulate urban-downtown-like environments in an Edge City. To truly create an urban environment, developers and the city need to come together towards one common vision, not an individual effort like that of Atlantic Crossing's.
While I do believe that Atlantic Crossing's layout alone makes it better than the typical gated automobile oriented apartment complex in suburban Jacksonville, I agree 100% with the rest of this post. As evidenced by Tapestry Park's mostly empty retail center, its going to take more than an individual effort to turn things around for the better.
i'll ride down there this evening and see how it feels.
Cant' we all just get along??? 8)
Yes - the architect made strides to make a better site plan. But, the simple fact is that in this contractor driven marketplace of Jacksonville, the "value engineered" design by the contractor almost always wins. If you can cut a corner without much notice and put more money in your pocket, that is the name of the game in JAX. More power needs to be given to the architect to look out of the owner's best interest.
To all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications. Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design. The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain. Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX.
The central park of Kendall Pointe in Arlington is a nice example of how to develop people-friendly open space.
QuoteYes - the architect made strides to make a better site plan. But, the simple fact is that in this contractor driven marketplace of Jacksonville, the "value engineered" design by the contractor almost always wins. If you can cut a corner without much notice and put more money in your pocket, that is the name of the game in JAX. More power needs to be given to the architect to look out of the owner's best interest.
To all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications. Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design. The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain. Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX.
You have to remember that the residences still need to be affordable. Perhaps that is part of the reason that these contractors "cut corners" as you call it. The architect could come up with a fantastic site plan, but if the site plan requires each to sell for $500,000, you will have a hard time finding buyers at that price point on the Southside of Jacksonville. There has to be a balance.
Quote from: Developing101 on August 05, 2008, 02:46:41 PM
Cant' we all just get along??? 8)
Yes - the architect made strides to make a better site plan. But, the simple fact is that in this contractor driven marketplace of Jacksonville, the "value engineered" design by the contractor almost always wins. If you can cut a corner without much notice and put more money in your pocket, that is the name of the game in JAX. More power needs to be given to the architect to look out of the owner's best interest.
To all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications. Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design. The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain. Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX.
All the value engineering in the world won't matter, as long as the minimum city requirements are met. Zoning and Land Use sit at the top of the food chain. Everything is down hill after that. Get the zoning and land use right and value engineering/cheap contractors/developers, etc. just ends up creating less attractive, but still walkable oriented projects.
Quote from: cline on August 05, 2008, 02:56:16 PM
QuoteYes - the architect made strides to make a better site plan. But, the simple fact is that in this contractor driven marketplace of Jacksonville, the "value engineered" design by the contractor almost always wins. If you can cut a corner without much notice and put more money in your pocket, that is the name of the game in JAX. More power needs to be given to the architect to look out of the owner's best interest.
To all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications. Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design. The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain. Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX.
You have to remember that the residences still need to be affordable. Perhaps that is part of the reason that these contractors "cut corners" as you call it. The architect could come up with a fantastic site plan, but if the site plan requires each to sell for $500,000, you will have a hard time finding buyers at that price point on the Southside of Jacksonville. There has to be a balance.
A "walkable" oriented site plan should not require a rise in contruction costs. Just a little foresight to make sure every little project is developed with a grander vision in mind can make a world of a difference.
Quote from: Abhishek on August 05, 2008, 02:17:36 PM
@ Jason
What direction is that? Atlantic Crossing does not resemble a 'walkable' neighbourhood as it has wide sidewalks and a different style of parking. The parking is at the back to cater to foot traffic but there isint a lot of locations for the foot traffic to go to.
A regular old condo complex would be just as good.
The opposition is not towards the building of the neighbourhood but towards the claim that it is a walkable neighbourhood. The claim has been made in the post. The website of Atlantic Crossing portrays this idea as well as you can walk to the town center etc. Here is a good website to see what makes a neighbourhood walkable: http://www.walkscore.com/walkable-neighborhoods.shtml
I think we should stop trying to simulate urban-downtown-like environments in an Edge City. To truly create an urban environment, developers and the city need to come together towards one common vision, not an individual effort like that of Atlantic Crossing's.
But if you don't start emulating those "urban-downtown-like" environments in the burbs, you will never reach a goal of creating a walkable edge city or suburb. Shoulder 4 or 5 of thises things together in an area like the Town Center and you're much closer to a walkable environment than if the current patterns of development continue, no matter what the density.
I agree that the location is pretty remote and not nearly as walkable as its website touts, however, it is much more appealing and effecient than the typical suburban apartment complex.
QuoteTo all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications. Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design. The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain. Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX.
The same holds true for us engineers. I'm sure the firm that designed the electrical portion of the project had a much grander vision for the site and street lighting, but the VE process likely cut it in half. I too see this play out day-in and day-out.
Quote from: rjp2008 on August 05, 2008, 09:20:19 AM
this is Florida after all and we do get a lot of sunshine!
and a lot of thunderstorms, lightning and mosquitos. ;)
"Yes - the architect made strides to make a better site plan. But, the simple fact is that in this contractor driven marketplace of Jacksonville, the "value engineered" design by the contractor almost always wins. If you can cut a corner without much notice and put more money in your pocket, that is the name of the game in JAX. More power needs to be given to the architect to look out of the owner's best interest.
To all architects out there - please, let's put much more emphasis on holding to your guns and stand up for your specifications. Don't let these contractors go behind your back and convince the owner into a "savings" and alter your design. The architect is supposed to be the top of the food chain. Let's step up on that darn ladder here in JAX."
The architect at the top of the food chain? Odd I thought it was supposed to be the buyer, everyone else underneath him to provide him with a product he wants and can afford.
"BUT, what if the city decided that they wanted to take drastic measures in the Tinseltown area and reduce Southside Blvd to two lanes with large medians and sidewalks on both sides and ample crosswalks. I know it is a long shot but these sort of changes could make the Tinseltown area into the type of walkable community you are referring to."
Long shot, thats being polite, I think the term your looking for is a snowballs chance in hell.
The architect works for the client right? So, the client decides probably based on market studies or known trends what goes up. I know sometimes the architect can call the shots, but let's face it, somebody is paying the bills personally, I think they did the right thing here. So, what's the square foot cost, how long has it been open and what's % is rented already. Did they raise the bar?
@ Jason
I rode over to Atlantic Crossing this evening. I do get what you mean by a start. I even spoke to two women who lived there. They mentioned seeing people walking to work from that community. Of course that is only a small percentage of people that can do that.
The city roadway planning, if we can call it 'planning', is to blame for the most part for the failure of a walkable community. Once we start moving away from strip-mall happy construction, we can think about a closer knit neighbourhood where walking to a store or a public space is an ease and a pleasure. But it is so expensive to build up than build out, and we have all this land available. That makes it hard to break the habit of spread out construction. The more spread out the construction is, the harder it is to walk around and the more car-dependent we are.
Some of the cities that rank high in walkability are parched for space and they have been for quite a while. Atlantic Crossing being in the Edge City inherits the demerits of car-dependent neighbourhoods.
There are also a number of apartment homes (Portofino Apartments,Colony at Deerwood, Wimberly, Fifty-Four Magnolia) around Atlantic Crossing. Some are closer to the Town Center Mall than the others. They obviously share the same benefit of walkability that Atlantic Crossing claims. So, the only thing that makes Atlantic Crossing different is the parking-in-the-back style of layout.
I personally could live without it.
Quote from: Abhishek on August 05, 2008, 11:01:58 PM
@ Jason
I rode over to Atlantic Crossing this evening. I do get what you mean by a start. I even spoke to two women who lived there. They mentioned seeing people walking to work from that community. Of course that is only a small percentage of people that can do that.
The city roadway planning, if we can call it 'planning', is to blame for the most part for the failure of a walkable community. Once we start moving away from strip-mall happy construction, we can think about a closer knit neighbourhood where walking to a store or a public space is an ease and a pleasure. But it is so expensive to build up than build out, and we have all this land available. That makes it hard to break the habit of spread out construction. The more spread out the construction is, the harder it is to walk around and the more car-dependent we are.
Some of the cities that rank high in walkability are parched for space and they have been for quite a while. Atlantic Crossing being in the Edge City inherits the demerits of car-dependent neighbourhoods.
No doubt. The whole "southside" region of Duval county is poorly planned. Space is also a concern. Personally, I would love to see Miami's urban development boundary recreated here. There is still quite a bit of undeveloped land especially in the northernmost, western, and southeastern ends of the county. If boundaries were created to halt development in these areas, the leftover available land would be forced to support a higher mix of uses. Couple that with some revisions to the county's development guidelines and we could be on our way. Plus, we would save thousands of acres of forest and wetlands for future generations to enjoy.
I spent a few hours in Uptown Charlotte this morning. The First Ward (I think this is the correct name of the area) has gridded streets and is lined with several individual developments like Atlantic Crossing. Layout alone makes this area pretty walkable and gives it a neighborhood atmosphere, despite the housing stock being pretty cheap looking. Although all the individual projects don't have retail, there are a couple of spots that do. Its a great example, not only for the Tinseltown area, but also spots like LaVilla and Brooklyn. I'm sure I'll do a photo tour of some sort when I get back to town. On to Detroit, Grand Rapids and Pittsburgh.
.... while your in Pittsburgh make sure to rub in their hard fought losses to the Jags. ;)
I agree with Jason. In fact, I was thinking about that same thing a couple days ago. There is no incentive to add density when you can just build our. Developers will build strip malls all the way to Daytona if allowed. I think boundaries for at least a period of time would be a smart move. Development should be restricted until density reaches a certain level, and then maybe a portion to the north can be opened to development, or elsewhere on the edge of the city. This would help build a market for mass transit, possibly free up capital to improve infrastructure closer to the core (Riverside Ave...), and create a better environment for our fair citizens.
Quote from: Jason on August 06, 2008, 09:08:27 AM
No doubt. The whole "southside" region of Duval county is poorly planned. Space is also a concern. Personally, I would love to see Miami's urban development boundary recreated here. There is still quite a bit of undeveloped land especially in the northernmost, western, and southeastern ends of the county. If boundaries were created to halt development in these areas, the leftover available land would be forced to support a higher mix of uses. Couple that with some revisions to the county's development guidelines and we could be on our way. Plus, we would save thousands of acres of forest and wetlands for future generations to enjoy.
Development boundary seems like the logical constraint to create higher mix of businesses in smaller areas. Saving the planet in the process is definitely welcome. A city as big as Jacksonville should not be allowed to spread without some limits. Jacksonville has a unique layout though, where every edge city is fairly self sufficient. I live in the southside area and do not have to go to downtown ever. This has positive and negative points. If I drove a car, I'd love to not have to drive much to run errands and parking is plenty because the edge cities are very car friendly but very bicycle/pedestrian unfriendly. I spoke to a few friends that grew up in New Jersey/New York area. The spread out edge cities of Jacksonville attracted them. Of course they are chained to their cars.
The solution is to define what 'quality of life' is for Jacksonville's citizens. Is it more quality to have wide lanes, spread out businesses with humongous parking lots attached to them or is it more quality to bring people out of cars, open up the city to the public and increase human interaction? It is a folly to suggest solutions without an aim of quality in mind. All the solutions listed in the comments look very viable but do all of them have the same goal of quality? Does the city of Jacksonville have that goal of quality?
Cap Z I don't think restricting development would help anybody out. After all, this is america, we love to build. By the way, this is how it's done. Some maggot Sr. Banker gets a request accross his desk for a loan. After the banker sits on it for probably months, he may look at it. If the request is out of line, he's going to pass it up. If the request is in line, he might sign off on the project would would let the investors get on with the project. They've put up their money, I seriously doubt they want to go with something that is not know to work. This is what I've been told.
Gator, if that second part of your comment was directed towards me, you've gone way over my head.
I agree that Americans love to build, I hope to build someday too. I just don't think nail salons and gas stations are the optimum use for our thousands of developed acres in south and west Jacksonville. I'd rather see the sprawl contained and higher density than outward expansion. Thats all.
I'm all for higher density in town. In fact, I'm for any density in town. I think out there, that which is developed so far is perfect. In fact, I'd like to see maybe 6 floors or residences instead of what looks like 4.