Durbin Park: NE Florida's Next Retail Mecca Takes Shape
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Durbin-Park/i-KGmVDch/0/XL/Durbin_Park%20Title-XL.jpg)
The Pavilion, the $125 million first phase of the much anticipated Durbin Park development by Gate Petroleum and Gatlin Development, is now underway.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2017-feb-durbin-park-ne-floridas-next-retail-mecca-takes-shape
I wonder when the Racetrack Road/95 overpass will be widened.
Quote from: pierre on February 23, 2017, 08:10:10 AM
I wonder when the Racetrack Road/95 overpass will be widened.
I think its on the books for a few years down the road.
I sure hope they make ingress and egress hellish. It just won't seem like Jacksonville if it doesn't copy that design concept from the Town Center.
RIP Fruit Cove
As I've said before; St Johns Town Center 2: Bigger, Badder, and Closer to Home
That park in the cover photo would look great if it didn't have roads between the shops, sidewalks, and park. Why can't this just be a safe walkable area with roads on the other side of the buildings?
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on February 23, 2017, 04:29:17 PM
RIP Fruit Cove
As I've said before; St Johns Town Center 2: Bigger, Badder, and Closer to Home
Unsure how much Fruit Cove will be effected by this. I think of Fruit Cove of the homes along 13. This is mainly over by 95 and Race Track.
Quote from: remc86007 on February 23, 2017, 04:29:48 PM
That park in the cover photo would look great if it didn't have roads between the shops, sidewalks, and park. Why can't this just be a safe walkable area with roads on the other side of the buildings?
It's essentially a better version of a traditional public square like Hemming Park. The roads appear to be single lane with parallel parking and bulb outs for traffic calming.
Quote from: fsquid on February 23, 2017, 04:53:33 PM
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on February 23, 2017, 04:29:17 PM
RIP Fruit Cove
As I've said before; St Johns Town Center 2: Bigger, Badder, and Closer to Home
Unsure how much Fruit Cove will be effected by this. I think of Fruit Cove of the homes along 13. This is mainly over by 95 and Race Track.
I think of "downtown Fruit Cove" (it's funny to me even typing that) as where racetrack meets 13 (not further south; that area, at least past Roberts road, becomes Switzerland). It's interesting to note that the only major commercial development in that area in the past 15 years is also a Gate project.
As far as the RIP comment; the traffic in that area has been awful for the past five years during peak times. I don't think this new project will affect that area as much as it will potentially lighten the load on San Jose Blvd. on weekend afternoons and heavily increase the traffic along Bartram Park and Old St. Augustine.
Quote from: fsquid on February 23, 2017, 04:53:33 PM
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on February 23, 2017, 04:29:17 PM
RIP Fruit Cove
As I've said before; St Johns Town Center 2: Bigger, Badder, and Closer to Home
Unsure how much Fruit Cove will be effected by this. I think of Fruit Cove of the homes along 13. This is mainly over by 95 and Race Track.
Well the boundaries are sort of blurred since the county renamed the general area St Johns. I would still think of Racetrack west of 95 as Fruit Cove. Along 13 south of Roberts road is actually Switzerland. (Probably soon to be renamed something like Bartram Oaks) Regardless of any specific delineation the whole of extreme Northwest SJC will always be Fruit Cove to me.
Quote from: remc86007 on February 23, 2017, 08:15:34 PM
I think of "downtown Fruit Cove" (it's funny to me even typing that) as where racetrack meets 13 (not further south; that area, at least past Roberts road, becomes Switzerland). It's interesting to note that the only major commercial development in that area in the past 15 years is also a Gate project.
As far as the RIP comment; the traffic in that area has been awful for the past five years during peak times. I don't think this new project will affect that area as much as it will potentially lighten the load on San Jose Blvd. on weekend afternoons and heavily increase the traffic along Bartram Park and Old St. Augustine.
I was speaking more to the progressive degradation of the rural character of the area from explosive development. I fondly remember the Fruit Cove of 1999 I thought I was living in the sticks and you saw more trees than houses along Racetrack. But It think you maybe underestimating the draw to SJTC2:BBCTH(Durbin Park) from other areas like Mandarin and even further. Given the choice of fighting JTB traffic or zipping down to Racetrack, I think many along San Jose would rather go south. I don't think SJC realizes the substantial amount of out-of-county patrons this place will attract.
I think they realize it and are actively wishing for as much traffic as possible. It would mean the development is a success, creating more jobs and generating more property taxe revenue for them.
Switzerland, that's right. My bad.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 23, 2017, 09:52:57 PM
I think they realize it and are actively wishing for as much traffic as possible. It would mean the development is a success, creating more jobs and generating more property taxe revenue for them.
Sure, that's what the Commission wants. Is that what the citizenry wants?
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on February 24, 2017, 01:02:21 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 23, 2017, 09:52:57 PM
I think they realize it and are actively wishing for as much traffic as possible. It would mean the development is a success, creating more jobs and generating more property taxe revenue for them.
Sure, that's what the Commission wants. Is that what the citizenry wants?
Unfortunately, I think it is.
Not me personally. But I have countless number of friends, family, co-workers, etc. that get excited by this stuff. They accept the traffic if it means more Targets, Paneras and Home Depots.
Quote from: fsquid on February 24, 2017, 10:13:24 AM
Switzerland, that's right. My bad.
oh wait never mind. I forgot that they renamed Switzerland and Orangedale to Rivertown.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/new-development-will-bring-close-to-five-thousand-homes-to-st-johns-county/414494173 (http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/new-development-will-bring-close-to-five-thousand-homes-to-st-johns-county/414494173)
"What people want" at the moment is at times a contradiction.
They want low density, lots of parks, wide expansive roads, great schools.....
They want big retail, easy access, no traffic, lots of choices......
With low property taxes, no industry, no loud trucks or trains passing by.....
People moved to North St Johns because they liked the low density, but the belly ache for lack of retail is silly because retail won't come until there is an adequate amount of density or volume.
A few things this development will impact.
- Nocatee Town Center (two retail hubs in close proximity to each other)
- Help promote a toll bridge replacement for the Shands (people won't have to cross the bridge for retail anymore)
- Drain off around 5-10% of St Johns Town Center over the next few years until a major anchor (like a Bass Pro) appears
- Over the next 30 years the 2 sites will be competing for the same regional retail anchors
One thing that is suppressed on the map is that the county plans to connect Durbin Parkway (Peyton Drive) east of 9B/I-795, cross over I-95 and US1 to connect with Nocatee Parkway.
And don't forget that the Davis Family is planning yet more retail at the intersection of 9B and E-Town Parkway.
My biggest concern is that the major job growth in greater Jacksonville is actually on the other side of the river (Amazon/GE). This will draw yet more demand for commuter traffic over a Shands replacement to reach jobs at Cecil Commerce.
I don't know who is doing the economics on these developments, but I still don't see where the people are coming from. While Jacksonville job growth and unemployment has been steady, the boom in housing inventory seems to be outstripping our ability to provide jobs to pay for them. To my eyes, that is the sign of a bubble in the works. Just my 4 cents.
Dude, the Sim City suburban expansion pack looks great! Especially with the Game Of Thrones-ish soundtrack.
Quote from: spuwho on February 24, 2017, 09:46:29 PM
"What people want" at the moment is at times a contradiction.
I can't disagree with any of that. What road is Peyton Parkway? Is that the 9B/Racetrack connector? I can't keep up these days.
I'll admit I approach this with emotion and not logic. I hate to see my hometown be developed at such a feverish pace. I fear for the day all of St. Johns County looks like The Villages.
Quote from: spuwho on February 24, 2017, 09:46:29 PM
I don't know who is doing the economics on these developments, but I still don't see where the people are coming from. While Jacksonville job growth and unemployment has been steady, the boom in housing inventory seems to be outstripping our ability to provide jobs to pay for them. To my eyes, that is the sign of a bubble in the works. Just my 4 cents.
I know what you mean (it seems like way too many homes are being built), but most of these people are moving into mortgaged homes, which require demonstrable income prior to closing (jobs already lined up). I don't think this scenario can create a bubble; the home prices will just fall until demand meets supply again.
I agree with you about the location of the housing boom and the job growth. I wish Gate (and others) would focus more on the north side of town. There looks like there is plenty of land around the top portion of the 295.
The north side of town around 295 is Duval County. The draw is young couples to SJC due to the school system. The large expansion in SJC is totally about schools in my opinion.
I don't think that's totally it at all. That is a good bit, for sure, but isn't that area of Southeastern Duval / Northern St. Johns the combination of affordable Florida + respectable Florida with great access to the beach, St. Augustine and Jacksonville.
And, oh by the way, an easy day trip to the vacation capital of the world.
That's a heck of a lot more of a draw that many presume.
I don't know so much about the supply and demand economics of these developments. I do know that Rivertown sat empty for nearly ten years, save approximately a dozen houses, and has become the development du jour all of sudden. The demand must be there again. I keep seeing puff pieces about Rivertown and being slightly sick to my stomach. Though as long as they aren't allowed to build more roundabouts on SR13 or their marina in a protected cove, I guess I might be able to live with it.
There is a new shopping center going right next to another shopping center that has never been at full occupancy in the ten years since it was built on 13 just south of McDonald's in Fruit Cove. Explain the supply and demand on that one.
Quote from: RattlerGator on February 28, 2017, 09:40:44 AM
I don't think that's totally it at all. That is a good bit, for sure, but isn't that area of Southeastern Duval / Northern St. Johns the combination of affordable Florida + respectable Florida with great access to the beach, St. Augustine and Jacksonville.
And, oh by the way, an easy day trip to the vacation capital of the world.
That's a heck of a lot more of a draw that many presume.
Perhaps, but I happen to live in North County only about 4-5 miles north of 295, and we have good and quick access to some of the best state ocean parks in FL ( Big and Little Talbot Island), Resorts at Amelia Island and Fernandina Beach. Easy access to SJTC, Downtown and the Airport. But the area is not booming as SJC. For young families schools can be an over riding factor.
I haven't met one family that lives in St John's that doesn't say it was the schools.
Of course the families are going to say that -- all the families said the same thing in the great rush to Orange Park in the 1970s, too. But there are snowbirds and retirees in the bunches moving in there as well.
Three things that immediately come to mind about North County, jaxjags:
(1) it's the Northside -- you've been here, you know how irrationally freaked out people get by names and stigmas [not to mention you're closer to the Georgia line -- don't get me started on how irrationally prejudicial Floridians can be about places closer to the state line but . . . think or conjure up blacker & more Southern and there's an explanation, albeit overly broad];
(2) conversely, northern St. Johns County has the magic of the Southside working for it, plus Ponte Vedra and St. Augustine [and the "stigma" is reversed . . . whiter, less Southern];
(3) think about it, the bend in the river, I think, acts as a huge barrier and all of the Lowcountry-like terrain north of the bend adds to that barrier. This is probably the most objective take on why the development is lagging on the northeastern end of the area.
But it is coming, my friend, you can bet your bottom dollar on that.
The main attraction of St. Johns County is the school system, full stop. After that, the attraction is that it checks off a lot of boxes pretty well that people who prefer living in bedroom suburbs like, and you have access to Jacksonville without living in Jacksonville (and thereby contributing taxes toward the assets you benefit from). It has cachet as the go-to spot for suburbanite families, but this is of course subjective.
Many other points are just confirmation bias for people who are already attracted based on those things. It's got low taxes (well, sort of, but you're paying a lot on impact fees); it's convenient to Jacksonville and it's employment centers, shopping, and things that can't be found in generic bedroom suburbs (it's much farther than comparable areas like Mandarin and Southside, let alone closer neighborhoods); it's "safe" (the crime rate is no different than that in similar areas across the metro area and country, and it's less safe if you're trying to use the roads, especially for walking or biking) it's close to the beach (most of the county is not, and even Ponte Vedra has among the worst beach access in Florida); you get a lot of land for your money (you don't, looking at comparable areas); it's close to St. Augustine (most of the developments are literally as far as you can get from St. Augustine and still be in the same county); it's good for investment (maybe in the short term, definitely not in the long term).
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 06, 2017, 10:00:09 AM
Of course the families are going to say that -- all the families said the same thing in the great rush to Orange Park in the 1970s, too. But there are snowbirds and retirees in the bunches moving in there as well.
Three things that immediately come to mind about North County, jaxjags:
(1) it's the Northside -- you've been here, you know how irrationally freaked out people get by names and stigmas [not to mention you're closer to the Georgia line -- don't get me started on how irrationally prejudicial Floridians can be about places closer to the state line but . . . think or conjure up blacker & more Southern and there's an explanation, albeit overly broad];
(2) conversely, northern St. Johns County has the magic of the Southside working for it, plus Ponte Vedra and St. Augustine [and the "stigma" is reversed . . . whiter, less Southern];
(3) think about it, the bend in the river, I think, acts as a huge barrier and all of the Lowcountry-like terrain north of the bend adds to that barrier. This is probably the most objective take on why the development is lagging on the northeastern end of the area.
But it is coming, my friend, you can bet your bottom dollar on that.
As Tacachale says "it is the school system, full stop". My neighbors are a perfect example. Older couple with their children living beside them, UNTIL their children were school age and they moved to SJC for "better schools".
As to your other points, having lived in "North County" north of 295 for 11 years I would say:
1. Yes their is a north side stigma, but it is not much different than JAX as a whole. My favorite FL joke - What is the second biggest city in GA - Jacksonville. SJC does get labeled more as FL.
2. The demographics of North County are actually not the perception - Crime is low, racial balance is not as perceived, etc.
3. There is some truth to the "big bend on the river". Until the Dames Point Bridge and River City Marketplace, North County was predominately North Side people who were born and grew up there.
You are correct as Jacksonville grows it will be growing north.
BUT, SJC is about schools.
Quote from: jaxjags on March 06, 2017, 10:29:15 PM
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 06, 2017, 10:00:09 AM
Of course the families are going to say that -- all the families said the same thing in the great rush to Orange Park in the 1970s, too. But there are snowbirds and retirees in the bunches moving in there as well.
Three things that immediately come to mind about North County, jaxjags:
(1) it's the Northside -- you've been here, you know how irrationally freaked out people get by names and stigmas [not to mention you're closer to the Georgia line -- don't get me started on how irrationally prejudicial Floridians can be about places closer to the state line but . . . think or conjure up blacker & more Southern and there's an explanation, albeit overly broad];
(2) conversely, northern St. Johns County has the magic of the Southside working for it, plus Ponte Vedra and St. Augustine [and the "stigma" is reversed . . . whiter, less Southern];
(3) think about it, the bend in the river, I think, acts as a huge barrier and all of the Lowcountry-like terrain north of the bend adds to that barrier. This is probably the most objective take on why the development is lagging on the northeastern end of the area.
But it is coming, my friend, you can bet your bottom dollar on that.
As Tacachale says "it is the school system, full stop". My neighbors are a perfect example. Older couple with their children living beside them, UNTIL their children were school age and they moved to SJC for "better schools".
As to your other points, having lived in "North County" north of 295 for 11 years I would say:
1. Yes their is a north side stigma, but it is not much different than JAX as a whole. My favorite FL joke - What is the second biggest city in GA - Jacksonville. SJC does get labeled more as FL.
2. The demographics of North County are actually not the perception - Crime is low, racial balance is not as perceived, etc.
3. There is some truth to the "big bend on the river". Until the Dames Point Bridge and River City Marketplace, North County was predominately North Side people who were born and grew up there.
You are correct as Jacksonville grows it will be growing north.
BUT, SJC is about schools.
It is amazing how perception can change on places. Orange Park had "Westside" stigma until it became popular with white suburbanites and it came to be seen as safe and up-and-coming. Now that it's aged, some of that stigma is coming back. North St. Johns will face the same problem as it ages and the target demographic moves on to greener (whiter) pastures. Riverside went from being a pleasant inner suburb, to a declining urban neighborhood, to a bohemian mecca, and now increasingly back to a pleasant inner ring suburb.
The suburban Northside is already starting to shake off the "Northside" stigma as it's becoming a major growth area. As new schools are built, they will be similar to those in demographically similar areas like the Southside, and that cachet will grow even more. I can definitely see Nassau County becoming the next St. Johns in the future (and St. Johns becoming like Orange Park).
Quote from: Tacachale on March 07, 2017, 11:13:26 AM
I can definitely see Nassau County becoming the next St. Johns in the future (and St. Johns becoming like Orange Park).
I think this has already begun. As someone who grew up in NW St. Johns it's strange to go to the few restaurants and stores in Fruit Cove and see them filled with old people. I think JCP specifically is going to slowly turn into a retirement community. The young families filling the homes of the older couples that move out will eventually not keep up with the sheer number of aging households. It seems in the short run, the development has simply moved east. Hopefully it will move north next.
Although I'd prefer the new massive neighborhood developments to be built in Duval(or not at all), but at least people commuting from Nassau will balance out the traffic a bit. Has the huge Rayonier backed development begun?
Quote from: Tacachale on March 07, 2017, 11:13:26 AM
Quote from: jaxjags on March 06, 2017, 10:29:15 PM
Quote from: RattlerGator on March 06, 2017, 10:00:09 AM
Of course the families are going to say that -- all the families said the same thing in the great rush to Orange Park in the 1970s, too. But there are snowbirds and retirees in the bunches moving in there as well.
Three things that immediately come to mind about North County, jaxjags:
(1) it's the Northside -- you've been here, you know how irrationally freaked out people get by names and stigmas [not to mention you're closer to the Georgia line -- don't get me started on how irrationally prejudicial Floridians can be about places closer to the state line but . . . think or conjure up blacker & more Southern and there's an explanation, albeit overly broad];
(2) conversely, northern St. Johns County has the magic of the Southside working for it, plus Ponte Vedra and St. Augustine [and the "stigma" is reversed . . . whiter, less Southern];
(3) think about it, the bend in the river, I think, acts as a huge barrier and all of the Lowcountry-like terrain north of the bend adds to that barrier. This is probably the most objective take on why the development is lagging on the northeastern end of the area.
But it is coming, my friend, you can bet your bottom dollar on that.
As Tacachale says "it is the school system, full stop". My neighbors are a perfect example. Older couple with their children living beside them, UNTIL their children were school age and they moved to SJC for "better schools".
As to your other points, having lived in "North County" north of 295 for 11 years I would say:
1. Yes their is a north side stigma, but it is not much different than JAX as a whole. My favorite FL joke - What is the second biggest city in GA - Jacksonville. SJC does get labeled more as FL.
2. The demographics of North County are actually not the perception - Crime is low, racial balance is not as perceived, etc.
3. There is some truth to the "big bend on the river". Until the Dames Point Bridge and River City Marketplace, North County was predominately North Side people who were born and grew up there.
You are correct as Jacksonville grows it will be growing north.
BUT, SJC is about schools.
It is amazing how perception can change on places. Orange Park had "Westside" stigma until it became popular with white suburbanites and it came to be seen as safe and up-and-coming. Now that it's aged, some of that stigma is coming back. North St. Johns will face the same problem as it ages and the target demographic moves on to greener (whiter) pastures. Riverside went from being a pleasant inner suburb, to a declining urban neighborhood, to a bohemian mecca, and now increasingly back to a pleasant inner ring suburb.
The suburban Northside is already starting to shake off the "Northside" stigma as it's becoming a major growth area. As new schools are built, they will be similar to those in demographically similar areas like the Southside, and that cachet will grow even more. I can definitely see Nassau County becoming the next St. Johns in the future (and St. Johns becoming like Orange Park).
I think Yulee is already planning a massive development off 95 which has easy access to Fernandina and down to Jax. Nassau will explode at some point with easy access to the airport and the desirability of Amelia/Fernandina along with potential ocean access throughout the area. I think North of the Airport will continue to grow in Duval, but the school situation remains a dicey situation for many.
The SJC for Schools argument seems to be a bit of a strange thing to me. The school system can barely keep up with the growth. Any sizable development must include plans for at least an elementary school. At one point or another the system has to lose quality. Shoot, when I went to high school at Bartram I spent the first few semesters in trailers as they built an addition to a school built five years before.
Quote from: lastdaysoffla on March 07, 2017, 01:19:18 PM
The SJC for Schools argument seems to be a bit of a strange thing to me. The school system can barely keep up with the growth. Any sizable development must include plans for at least an elementary school. At one point or another the system has to lose quality. Shoot, when I went to high school at Bartram I spent the first few semesters in trailers as they built an addition to a school built five years before.
Yeah, and to make it worse, they pay for new schools out of impact fees rather than taxes. When the growth slows, there's no way the county will be able to fund all those schools at the current levels. They will either need to raise taxes substantially, or lose quality.
Perception is everything. It also has very little to do with quality of education received in comparison to socio-economic levels of students and the outputs that come from that. Parents is higher socio-economic areas will also make sure the necessary resources are there for schools to function and for the students to succeed.
The perception is largely incorrect. I went to Bartram and I'd describe my education as passable. Friends of mine that went to Creekside had a similar or worse experience. Drugs run rampant through the suburbs despite what the realtors tell you. Suffice it to say that I was somewhat behind the curve when I got to College despite taking numerous AP courses in high school.
The word "overrated" comes to mind.
Quote from: remc86007 on March 07, 2017, 09:52:32 PM
The perception is largely incorrect. I went to Bartram and I'd describe my education as passable. Friends of mine that went to Creekside had a similar or worse experience. Drugs run rampant through the suburbs despite what the realtors tell you. Suffice it to say that I was somewhat behind the curve when I got to College despite taking numerous AP courses in high school.
The word "overrated" comes to mind.
After I moved to NE Florida, the common refrain from all the parents I talked to was that the "AP" classes had little value in the college setting. Even in some of the private settings.
And for those who did jump between the AP and standard offerings found the difference to be in the amount of homework one was asked to complete.
Some parents even thought "AP" was an education racket to have parents believe their kids were getting a great value in public education. Then when they took entrance exams or proficiency tests to get placed at their respective colleges, they found themselves lumped into the same group as everyone else. Everyone's experience varies by the ability of ones child, but as a whole AP does not get you any advanced placement by default. The kid has to be able to translate what they supposedly learned in AP into real terms on a proficiency exam.
I have seen some kids ace high school chem, just to struggle in 1st year chem in college. On the flip side, I have seen non-AP students exam out of first year college chem because their high school program was so much better, they were completely prepared.
With the retail market crashing and burning right now, can our local market support another huge shopping center?
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/retail-meltdown-of-2017/522384/
^ I like the part about moving into a post-materialism America. I think that is evidence of our society achieving a new level of prosperity.
Quote from: FlaBoy on April 11, 2017, 01:21:37 PM
With the retail market crashing and burning right now, can our local market support another huge shopping center?
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/retail-meltdown-of-2017/522384/
Yes because that article is describing more the over-abundance of existing retail whereas the area serving Durbin Park is a virtual durable goods retail dessert. And since it's not even broken ground yet Durbin Park would have no problem adjusting its size and tenant mix unlike a fixed-size anchor tenant driven shopping mall like the Avenues.
Plus it's not all doom/gloom for all retailers: Home improvement stores and low-cost retailers aren't suffering the news-grabbing bankruptcy headlines that draw all the attention. Also you're seeing more gyms, eateries, and niche grocery stores capitalizing on the new availability of retail space. While the revamping and repurposing may eat into shopping center owners pockets, it certainly isn't a death knell for most of them.
Quote from: remc86007 on April 11, 2017, 02:37:47 PM
^ I like the part about moving into a post-materialism America. I think that is evidence of our society achieving a new level of prosperity.
Agreed. What I think was instrumental in putting materialism into a new light for a post-recession generation was all those shows about hoarders and how we all can be easily swept away in the need for more and more stuff to the point that the reasons and benefits for it are forgotten or don't even matter.
Quote from: FlaBoy on April 11, 2017, 01:21:37 PM
With the retail market crashing and burning right now, can our local market support another huge shopping center?
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/retail-meltdown-of-2017/522384/
I was thinking the same thing.
Bloomberg had an article about the overbuilt nature of retail.
I wouldn't be surprised if Durbin Park's Phase 2 lifestyle center component fails to materialize as currently illustrated in the master plan. Phase 1 should be fine since it's a Walmart, Home Depot and a few other big box spots.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 11, 2017, 06:58:58 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if Durbin Park's Phase 2 lifestyle center component fails to materialize as currently illustrated in the master plan. Phase 1 should be fine since it's a Walmart, Home Depot and a few other big box spots.
I do think the bass pro shop section of phase 2 will occur. I could also see phase 2 scaled down to an upscale restaurant village type setting.
Yeah Bass pro is more of an isolated outparcel. The SJTC-like portion of phase 2 will need anchors like Dillards, Macy's and Belk. There's not much expansion taking place in the traditional department store world today.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Durbin-Park/i-Q2PgW9D/0/X3/Durbin_Brochure%2011x17_2017-0130_Page_02-X3.jpg)
It's only a matter of time before Sears goes completely under, which means the Avenues and Orange Park Mall will both have some extra space on their hands.
Quote from: FlaBoy on April 11, 2017, 01:21:37 PM
With the retail market crashing and burning right now, can our local market support another huge shopping center?
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/retail-meltdown-of-2017/522384/
TL;DR warning:
Not sure I buy the whole thing they wrote. Here are their three reasons:
Quote
1. People are simply buying more stuff online than they used to.
Completely agree, and undisputed.
Quote
2. America built way too many malls.
I do agree with this to a point, but mostly this statement is restating #1. People still are buying things; they just aren't buying them from malls. I do think that the move back to cities as compared to the 1970's and 1980's is contributing. Malls are suburban (mostly) and urban dwellers do tend to shop local. Local stores aren't usually the ones you find in malls, save for some instances in New York/LA.
Quote
3. Americans are shifting their spending from materialism to meals out with friends.
Don't agree with this argument. I'm not arguing the data they present, but I do argue the conclusions they draw from it. Obviously Food and Drink spending is up - that's clear. However, I think that it's a stretch to say people aren't spending money on non-food and drink. What I think may be in play is average retail prices - I don't believe they've risen across the board as quickly as total spend. Through the internet, I believe the shopper is more savvy than in any time in history. It's much easier today when you can comparison shop. Best Buy has recovered to a degree, but they were Amazon's showroom for a while - people could check prices online from their phone while shopping in a store - never in history has something like that happened.
I think retail is changed forever, but how? Not sure yet. This statement that they make - "One of the mistakes people make when thinking about the future is to think that they are watching the final act of the play." - couldn't be more true. Look at online startups like Warby Parker and Rent The Runway spinning up stores in major cities, and historic brick and mortar chains trying to monetize the whole omnichannel thing. It's as if they both believe the grass is greener on the other side. I think the conclusion is that is you want really green grass, you need a presence on both sides of the hill.
With all of that said, I wouldn't invest in Phase 2 of this (Save for maybe Bass Pro) if I had money to burn.
Quote from: Steve on April 12, 2017, 09:46:26 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on April 11, 2017, 01:21:37 PM
With the retail market crashing and burning right now, can our local market support another huge shopping center?
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/04/retail-meltdown-of-2017/522384/
TL;DR warning:
Not sure I buy the whole thing they wrote. Here are their three reasons:
Quote
1. People are simply buying more stuff online than they used to.
Completely agree, and undisputed.
Quote
2. America built way too many malls.
I do agree with this to a point, but mostly this statement is restating #1. People still are buying things; they just aren't buying them from malls. I do think that the move back to cities as compared to the 1970's and 1980's is contributing. Malls are suburban (mostly) and urban dwellers do tend to shop local. Local stores aren't usually the ones you find in malls, save for some instances in New York/LA.
Quote
3. Americans are shifting their spending from materialism to meals out with friends.
Don't agree with this argument. I'm not arguing the data they present, but I do argue the conclusions they draw from it. Obviously Food and Drink spending is up - that's clear. However, I think that it's a stretch to say people aren't spending money on non-food and drink. What I think may be in play is average retail prices - I don't believe they've risen across the board as quickly as total spend. Through the internet, I believe the shopper is more savvy than in any time in history. It's much easier today when you can comparison shop. Best Buy has recovered to a degree, but they were Amazon's showroom for a while - people could check prices online from their phone while shopping in a store - never in history has something like that happened.
I think retail is changed forever, but how? Not sure yet. This statement that they make - "One of the mistakes people make when thinking about the future is to think that they are watching the final act of the play." - couldn't be more true. Look at online startups like Warby Parker and Rent The Runway spinning up stores in major cities, and historic brick and mortar chains trying to monetize the whole omnichannel thing. It's as if they both believe the grass is greener on the other side. I think the conclusion is that is you want really green grass, you need a presence on both sides of the hill.
I do believe people are spending more on services - meals out, entertainment, vacations. I think this is being somewhat driven by aging baby boomers, of which I am one. There is only so much furniture, appliances, TVs, AV equipment, clothing, etc. that one can buy. Thus people my age do spend more on services such as dinning out. Also, I know many "older" people who do like to buy on line. No need to go out and it is delivered to your door. Not scientific, just an opinion.
^ Don't forget the millennials who tend to enjoy living in more urban, smaller places, with less room for crap. Even modern interior design is much less cluttered.
Durbin Park's first phase to open in early 2019
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=550033 (http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=550033)
by Karen Brune Mathis, Editor
Durbin Park in northern St. Johns County, which is set to rival St. Johns Town Center in retail size and scope, will start "going vertical" with its first phase early next year.
Developer Frank Gatlin III said Monday that site work is underway at the 80-acre Pavilion at Durbin Park. Stores should open starting in the first quarter of 2019.
Jacksonville-based Gate Petroleum Co. is developing the 1,600-acre Durbin Park west of Interstate 95 and south of Race Track Road.
Gatlin Development Co., also based in Jacksonville, is working with Gate in a joint venture to develop the commercial space.
The Pavilion is south of Race Track Road and west of Florida 9B.
Gate expects to open a convenience store and gas station, as well as a Gate Express Carwash, at the site in late 2018 or early 2019.
Wal-Mart Supercenter and The Home Depot are confirmed for the Pavilion, which is a 700,000-square-foot project with an estimated investment of $150 million.
Gatlin, CEO of Gatlin Development, said negotiations could be completed soon for other tenants, including several junior anchor stores.
Gatlin said his group was in active negotiations to bring the first phase of the development to 90 percent occupancy.
The second phase is where the previously announced Bass Pro Shops will locate, pending negotiations, he said.
Gatlin said he also was talking with movie theaters "and a whole entertainment cluster" and other tenants for that phase.
He said he would be speaking with the iFLY indoor parachuting center for the second phase. The entertainment venue also is considering a site near Topgolf at St. Johns Town Center, but has not confirmed a Northeast Florida location.
A 150,000-square-foot Bass Pro Shops is planned for the second phase. It announced in 2012 it would open a Bass Pro Shop Outdoor World there by mid-2014, but that was delayed.
The Shopping Center Group will be the leasing agent for the retail space.
Durbin Park is designed for about 2.4 million square feet of retail space, 2.8 million square feet of office space, 999 multifamily housing units and about 350 hotel rooms.
The total retail space is almost twice the size of St. Johns Town Center.
Of the 1,600 acres, about 600 could be developed for building sites. The remainder is lake, wetlands, road right-of-way and green space.
Pet Supermarket, restaurants coming to Collins Plaza
Gatlin Development Co. is completing 40,000 square feet of retail space among four buildings at southwest Interstate 295 and Collins Road.
Pet Supermarket, with six Northeast Florida locations, is among the signed tenants. It has three more stores planned around Jacksonville.
Collins Plaza is anchored by Wal-Mart Supercenter, which is open.
A Gate Petroleum Co. gas station and convenience store opened there and a Gate Express Carwash should break ground soon next to it.
CEO Frank Gatlin III said Monday that the retail buildings are filling up.
Along with Pet Supermarket, confirmed tenants include Jersey Mike's Subs, Salsas Mexican Restaurant, Pet Angels Animal Hospital, AT&T, China Kitchen, Coco's Beauty Supply, Great Clips, Fancy Sushi, MetroPCS and Lee Nails & Spa.
The retail space is 75 percent leased.
Gatlin said his group is negotiating with retailers for the remaining 10,000 square feet and he hopes to be 100 percent signed in 90 days.
Two of the buildings are completed and tenants are moving in. Gatlin expects to break ground on the other two buildings within two weeks and be completed by year-end.
Gatlin Development bought the nearly 44-acre Collins Plaza in December 2014 and sold about 16 acres for development of the Wal-Mart Supercenter.
WOOOOOOO!!
/s
QuoteDurbin Park is designed for about 2.4 million square feet of retail space, 2.8 million square feet of office space, 999 multifamily housing units and about 350 hotel rooms.
The total retail space is almost twice the size of St. Johns Town Center.
999 multifamily housing units and 350 hotel rooms would match or exceed SJTC, twice as much retail space as SJTC and the 2.8 million sq feet of office space almost 100% more than SJTC....it's going to be a lot bigger than I was expecting.
Perhaps this is a bit of funny math. Durbin Park is an entire development. It's sort of like adding the numbers up of several development projects like SJCT, IKEA, Florida Blue, Tinseltown, etc. and calling them a single development known as Gate Parkway. On the other hand, SJTC is a single shopping center. The shopping centers immediately across the street would not be included in SJTC's retail square footage. My guess is if you took Durbin Park's land area and placed it over SJTC and added up the numbers with every development within that equal amount of land area, SJTC's numbers would be much larger than Durbin Park's.
Look out!
Durbin Park signed Walmart, Home Depot, Verizon, Chase, AND a Gate gas station.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/stores-restaurants-lined-up-for-durbin-park-in-st-johns
Town Center's days are numbered.
The first phase is a strip mall. It would be comparable to the shopping centers surrounding SJTC. Their comparable SJTC phase is supposed to be developed on the other side of 9B at a later date. With that said, I think their Keke's will be that chain's first location in NE Florida. Keke's is pretty popular in and around Orlando.
I live not too far from where this is going, and I see post after post on Nextdoor of people complaining about the tenants, and yet that's all they do. Wring their hands and say this is terrible, but refuse to do anything else about it. And now it turns out the permit was awarded last week. They had until last week to do something, but decided to complain until it was too late.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of Walmart, but it beats having to drive to Avenues Walk or San Jose. There's plenty of room in Phases 2 and 3 for the high-end center. Maybe have Simon handle that instead of Gatlin or TSCG or whoever else.
Most of this seems like old news. It was announced a year ago that Walmart and Home Depot were going to anchors in Durbin Park's strip mall.
https://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-feb-durbin-park-ne-floridas-next-retail-mecca-takes-shape
They'll pack those places out when they open. Seriously, what else were people expecting? They are Walmart and Home Depot's demographic.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 02, 2018, 06:27:52 AM
Most of this seems like old news. It was announced a year ago that Walmart and Home Depot were going to anchors in Durbin Park's strip mall.
https://www.moderncities.com/article/2017-feb-durbin-park-ne-floridas-next-retail-mecca-takes-shape
They'll pack those places out when they open. Seriously, what else were people expecting? They are Walmart and Home Depot's demographic.
And a year ago was when they started complaining, and nothing else.
The thing is, none of us want to admit we're that demographic. We all know that we go to Walmart for the rock-bottom prices, but rather than accept it we act like we're too good for it and treat it as a bane on our society.
Update from the St. Augustine Record:
http://www.staugustine.com/news/20180210/this-is-another-city
^Interesting comment posted under that article questioning where the workforce for such a huge development is going to come from, when there's virtually no rental property or sub $250k housing within 20 minutes of the development.
That's not true. There's thousands of rental units in Bartram Park and Flagler Center. A couple of hundred units are under construction currently. Although on the Jax side of the county line, these developments are closer to Durbin Park than most of the CR 210 developments.
Agreed. You might want to look at what has been built on Bartram Park Blvd. between Old St. Augustine Rd. and Race Track Rd. over the last 10 years.... Plenty of housing in the range you described as non-existent, within 5 minutes, let alone 20.
The intersection of I-95 and the future I-795 is setting itself up to be one giant traffic clusterfuck in 5 to 10 years given the fact that Durbin Center will be this exclusive magnet for big box retailers with little competition in the county. If that development alone doesn't cause enough traffic headaches, just wait until St. Johns Parkway is finally connected it to all those Rivertown and World Golf Village developments. It would be akin to a mosquito feeding off an artery.
Or a large amount of retail workers live with their parents, mates, have roommates, etc. instead of staying alone. There's nothing special or unique about Northern St. Johns or its demographics. There are comparable suburban areas near most major cities across the country. I doubt Walmart, Home Depot, etc. have problems finding employees.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 13, 2018, 05:21:30 PM
^Interesting comment posted under that article questioning where the workforce for such a huge development is going to come from, when there's virtually no rental property or sub $250k housing within 20 minutes of the development.
Ironically, some people here are terrified by the idea of putting affordable housing in the vicinity of where they live. Here's some quotes from them:
Quote
Waffle house, barf burger, McDonalds, Verizon, wal mart, 1 pawn shop...MORE townhomes.....and a campground for gypsies
Quote
Sal, I was talking about weighing in on the hotel (s) & multifamilty. Some are concerned that may be mass density apartments & cheapo townhomes ($100K number was used as an example).
I think people want to make sure that quality builders and developments are added when it gets to that point
Quote
Nicole, good point on the multi-family and hotels. Too bad SJC already approved the multi family zoning, actually required as part of fair housing, can't have too many single family homes in one concentrated area. Crime seems to be centralized to areas with the highest number of multifamily communities.
Quote
At the outlets the original Townhomes on the back side were nice 1600 to 1800 SF 9 ft ceilings nice stone outside etc.... they quickly found out they were struggling to sell them at 175 10 years ago so they dropped ceilings to 8' took away stone and dropped SF by 200+ SF which brought the price down. I am not sure how invested Gatlin is into the property value of the homes in the area around Durbin. Is main concern may be get the buildings built leased or sold so he can start collecting on his investment.
Quote
It's disconcerting that so far this development isn't what was planned. We can't let the Residential area go unchecked. This will affect our kids & our schools.
Of course thet don't want affordable housing. Give it time. There's a ton of cheaply constructed tract house and townhome developments out there, that won't age well. They'll end up being the "affordable" housing in another decade or so.
I guess we should begin preparing for more development in southern SJC too.
http://www.staugustine.com/news/20180214/40-million-worth-of-land-in-southern-st-johns-county-recently-acquired-from-rayonier (http://www.staugustine.com/news/20180214/40-million-worth-of-land-in-southern-st-johns-county-recently-acquired-from-rayonier)
QuoteMost of the parcels acquired are between Interstate 95 and U.S. 1, south of Watson Road. The property is mostly contiguous and extends down to the Flagler County border.
Quote from: Sonic101 on February 14, 2018, 09:57:49 AM
I guess we should begin preparing for more development in southern SJC too.
http://www.staugustine.com/news/20180214/40-million-worth-of-land-in-southern-st-johns-county-recently-acquired-from-rayonier (http://www.staugustine.com/news/20180214/40-million-worth-of-land-in-southern-st-johns-county-recently-acquired-from-rayonier)
QuoteMost of the parcels acquired are between Interstate 95 and U.S. 1, south of Watson Road. The property is mostly contiguous and extends down to the Flagler County border.
IMO we should prepare by adding toll roads to all entrances to Duval County from St. Johns.
FDOT is already on it. There's a plan to add toll lanes, similiar to the current project on I-295 through Mandarin and the Southside.
So for some reason, one of the moderators on Nextdoor keeps shutting down these Durbin Park threads, with responses like this:
Quote
A post about stores once again turns into a post about local government. Anybody ready to incorporate so we have our own local officials? Any who, I think it's time to shut this down so it can start back up in a few days.
And this:
Quote
Officially OFF.THE.RAILS.
Quote from: Sonic101 on February 14, 2018, 09:57:49 AM
I guess we should begin preparing for more development in southern SJC too.
That reminds me, a lot of these people have been railing against the county commissioners, specifically Jimmy Johns, for letting a lot of developments like these get approved. There are plenty of hilarious passive-aggressive responses:
Quote
Pointing out the way Jimmy votes as he's the District 1 Commissioner, where many of us call home. Important to remember that when voting whether you're for or against this kind of expansion. Didn't say anything for or against this.
Quote
It's been reported that Mr. Johns will be running for Congress to try and take over Ron DeSantis's seat since Mr. DeSantis is running for Governor. Anyone who votes for Jimmy " I can't say No" Johns is a fool. Unless you like this area becoming urban
Quote
Johns will approve anything if he thinks there is money in it. He has no concern for the quality of living we experience out here. I appeared before him and the other commissioners to fight against variances he wasn't to approve for the CR 210 Town Center! People better start paying attention or you'"" find youselves living loke folks out near Blanding Blvd soon!
I love living here.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 14, 2018, 06:39:52 AM
Of course thet don't want affordable housing. Give it time. There's a ton of cheaply constructed tract house and townhome developments out there, that won't age well. They'll end up being the "affordable" housing in another decade or so.
Spot on! Couldn't agree more.
Developers have a hard time making building any kind of apartments work in St. John's due to Impact Fees. Notice you don't see any apartments under construction in St. Johns. They all stop at the Duval line. I agree about affordable housing, they are really lacking that.
The county needs to think this one over, they need a better balance of housing, not just tract housing.
Quote from: Transman on February 17, 2018, 08:58:30 PM
Developers have a hard time making building any kind of apartments work in St. John's due to Impact Fees. Notice you don't see any apartments under construction in St. Johns. They all stop at the Duval line. I agree about affordable housing, they are really lacking that.
The county needs to think this one over, they need a better balance of housing, not just tract housing.
I don't disagree with you, but I will be upfront here and say that considering some of the comments I've copied and pasted in this thread, it's not clear that many residents here want any development at all.
Personally, I'm not opposed to new development provided it suits the community and doesn't demand numerous concessions from the county government, but a lot of people seem to constantly get up in arms about any attempts at new housing or shopping. It's a strange conundrum, considering our schools are so highly in demand and a lot of the people that come here then attempt to close the door on anyone behind them.
And now, Durbin Park especially has been a hotspot for debate over the future of our county, and I can't say for sure who's going to win.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 01, 2018, 10:04:03 AM
With that said, I think their Keke's will be that chain's first location in NE Florida. Keke's is pretty popular in and around Orlando.
Looks like Town Center is getting one too.
https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/02/21/kekes-breakfast-cafe-to-open-near-st-johns-town.html
Looks like neighbors are reaching their breaking point on development in St John's County. Residents demanding development to stop.
https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/st-johns-county/residents-demanding-commissioners-to-stop-northern-st-johns-county-development (https://www.news4jax.com/news/florida/st-johns-county/residents-demanding-commissioners-to-stop-northern-st-johns-county-development)
When you develop large shopping centers like this, multifamily housing is always going to follow.
"I just moved here, and don't want anyone else to move here!"
Nextdoor here is on fire with everyone losing their minds about this development. I just said what Charles Hunter did, and that in the end, they have the right to someone they feel represents them. If I wasn't going to college I'd run for Jimmy Johns' seat and implode the economy by shutting down new development. Will of the people, right?
Quote from: marcuscnelson on July 17, 2019, 09:50:51 PM
Nextdoor here is on fire with everyone losing their minds about this development. I just said what Charles Hunter did, and that in the end, they have the right to someone they feel represents them. If I wasn't going to college I'd run for Jimmy Johns' seat and implode the economy by shutting down new development. Will of the people, right?
Anyone running for his seat would get a lot of backing at the moment.
Quote from: fsquid on July 19, 2019, 12:02:15 PM
Anyone running for his seat would get a lot of backing at the moment.
Please don't tempt me. Although I'm probably not Republican enough to win that election anyway.
Couldn't help but notice that Bass Pro has quietly disappeared from future Durbin Park plans:
2016:
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Durbin-Park/i-jDdV6DM/0/L/DURBIN-PARK-L.jpg)
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/durbin-park-jaxs-next-st-johns-town-center-page-2/
2020:
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/293362_standard.png?itok=Js0wfLLn)
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/flagler-health-campus-takes-step-in-durbin-park
It's not a big loss nor is it surprising. It seems like those types of stores aren't doing as well anymore and maybe their novelty has worn off.
I'm curious what the retail portion of Phase 2 will look like now.
That parcel has changed too. It now has the depth of a potential strip mall or power center with outparcels. The closest existing comparison would probably be Gate Parkway.
Quote from: RiversideRambler on April 23, 2020, 12:15:15 PM
It's not a big loss nor is it surprising. It seems like those types of stores aren't doing as well anymore and maybe their novelty has worn off.
I'm curious what the retail portion of Phase 2 will look like now.
I'm still surprised that Gainesville got one before all of NE Florida. That seems really odd to me.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2020, 12:37:30 PM
That parcel has changed too. It now has the depth of a potential strip mall or power center with outparcels. The closest existing comparison would probably be Gate Parkway.
Looking at the map in general, it's interesting to see a lot more multi-family and office space. I wasn't under the impression that there's a lot of demand for either of those, particularly the offices. Of course, the theater being built in Pavilion means it isn't needed in Phase 2, but losing so much of the rest of the commercial space makes me wonder how much sq ft there actually will be.
(https://media.firstcoastnews.com/assets/WTLV/images/02ba5956-f93d-44cc-b5a2-2bbc1c79c481/02ba5956-f93d-44cc-b5a2-2bbc1c79c481.jpg)
Here we can actually see the hospital layout a little better, and compare it to Baptist South.
Frankly, as long as they at least build a Costco and a Chick-fil-a here, they'll be printing money here until the end of time.
Quote from: marcuscnelson on April 24, 2020, 02:53:21 AM
Quote from: RiversideRambler on April 23, 2020, 12:15:15 PM
It's not a big loss nor is it surprising. It seems like those types of stores aren't doing as well anymore and maybe their novelty has worn off.
I'm curious what the retail portion of Phase 2 will look like now.
I'm still surprised that Gainesville got one before all of NE Florida. That seems really odd to me.
Sometimes it's all about the right opportunity. Jacksonville never had a Burdines either, which is a big part of the reason Jacksonville never had a Macy's. I think there's only 3-4 Macy's in Florida that were actually built as a Macy's.
Now it's likely too late unless something falls in their lap!
Gainesville likely gave them a massive incentive package. Jax didn't, which is why they proposed the St. Johns site. However, it was inaccessible (still is without the extention of Durbin Park's circulator road) to I-95 until the construction and completion of SR 9B.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 24, 2020, 10:21:31 AM
Gainesville likely gave them a massive incentive package. Jax didn't, which is why they proposed the St. Johns site. However, it was inaccessible (still is without the extention of Durbin Park's circulator road) to I-95 until the construction and completion of SR 9B.
^This.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 24, 2020, 10:21:31 AM
Gainesville likely gave them a massive incentive package. Jax didn't, which is why they proposed the St. Johns site. However, it was inaccessible (still is without the extention of Durbin Park's circulator road) to I-95 until the construction and completion of SR 9B.
The Gainesville site doesn't have the best interstate access either
You can logically get to it without going miles out of the way and working back through a series of goat's paths and cattle trails. Durbin Park has SR 9B now and you still can't get to the I-95 site they once looked at.
After COVID-19, it will be interesting to see if brick and mortar retail returns to these traditional models. Gate might be better building out an Amazon local delivery structure like what the Kmart on Blanding is becoming 8).
If they follow the plans, the contorted way this development will have to connect to I-95 and poor road grid in St. Johns also makes me wonder how far this development will go. I know there are lots of potential rooftops around there but if it has traffic gridlock, there may be a limit to the potential number of patrons in relationship to the planned square footage of retail. St. Johns Town Center already turns many off with its traffic issues. Maybe I don't understand the "shop til you drop" die hard shopper but this seems like a potential added motivator to shop on-line ;D.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2020, 09:10:55 AM
Couldn't help but notice that Bass Pro has quietly disappeared from future Durbin Park plans:
Update: It turns out the Bass Pro is actually still coming, they've just moved it from being in its own space to being within that big "Commercial" section in Phase II. Instead of fronting I-95, it will front SR-9B, which is why that big lake is next to the highway now.
There's also going to be a BJ's, more retail space, some restaurants, outparcels, and 4,000 parking spaces.
The document explaining all of this is here:
http://gatlindevelopmentcompany.propertycapsule.com/property/output/document/view/id:10527/?time=1589311082/
Interesting changes. So it looks like the SJTC component is definitely gone now.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 12, 2020, 05:07:08 PM
Interesting changes. So it looks like the SJTC component is definitely gone now.
come on Lake - the power center of SJTC can totally be replicated there ;)
Nothing there is worth driving across town for. I will continue to be a fan of SJTC.