Financial Priorities: Spending on Stadiums vs. Schools
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Economics/Sports-Stadiums/i-85Hf4bL/0/L/Stadium-Cowboys-L.jpg)
Is it time to re-evaluate the amount of public money utilized to subsidize sports stadiums at the expense of other community needs? The editorial team at FormSwift believes so. With that in mind, FormSwift shares an easy-to-digest, user-friendly resource to begin learning about the misplaced spending priorities of many state governments regarding sports stadiums.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2017-feb-financial-priorities-spending-on-stadiums-vs-schools
Bread and Circuses ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses)
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 08:01:10 AM
BUH BUH...MY FOOTBAW! TEH JAGZ R SO IMPORTANT! DON'T U KNO HOW MANY FORTUNE 1 MILLION BUSINESSES COME HERE JUST CUZ WE GOT TEH JAGZ?!!? STICK 2 SPORTS
YEAH TEH GATAS ARE THE ONLY FOOTBAW WORTHY OF SHOUTED CAPS AND SWITCHING NUMBERS 4 WORDS BEC4USE NO SCAMS IN COLLE6E FOOTBAW AND ONLY SOPHISTICATED SMART F4NS. TEBOOOOOOOOOOW
Haha. No one on here likes to talk about all the public money the Jaguars have taken and continue to take. Has it been worth it? Has the city seen a return or are we still paying it off and will we continue to pay it off decades into the future? I love the NFL but history will show it was the biggest public monies rip-off in history. Jacksonville is not alone.
I am happy that several cities, mostly in California since they have to vote on all stadium monies now, have said enough is enough. Let the teams walk. They will eventually run out of cities willing to finance these billion dollar stadiums. I do like the fact that the Jaguars are continuously upgrading their existing stadium. That does tend to be cheaper than building a new 2 billion dollar joint. I am looking at you Atlanta and your new Mercedz Benz Stadium. The Georgia Dome is barely older than Everbank Field yet its public financed replacement opens next year. Their new stadium by the way eclipses our LED boards as largest LED boards in a stadium. That didn't last long..lol.
For some cities like LA, New York, Dallas, Las Vegas, Miami, Seattle, or even St. Louis, is is a complete rip off. But those cities are well known centers that don't need a professional franchise to put them on a map. Dallas, LA, and NY saw completely privately funded stadiums. The Dolphins ended up privately financing their upgrades to their stadium after the Richard Corcoran told the Miami owner to screw himself basically. Atlanta certainly has gotten screwed with their over $3 billion in investments from Fulton and Cobb County with two viable stadiums already there.
Whether for little Jacksonville in 1993, as like the 50th largest metro at the time, to have an NFL franchise, was and still is a big deal that got the city on the map. Literally, I had no idea about Jacksonville other than the Jags and FL-GA for years. Even today, as a resident, when I travel to other cities and say where I live, the first thing that they say is, "I don't know much about Jacksonville other than your bad football team." For this city, the publicity may be worth it for our one team in by far the most popular league in America.
I also believe that the NFL will want teams in Mexico City and London by 2022 (maybe not playing yet but expansion on the way or relocation) due to the new television rights coming up so we better be on our toes. They need to expand the pool of money and they may have already maxed out the US.
I don't know how "on the map" Jacksonville is. Whenever I tell anyone I'm from Jacksonville, they say, "Like the song?" No... that's Jackson.
Quote from: Adam White on February 15, 2017, 10:45:25 AM
I don't know how "on the map" Jacksonville is. Whenever I tell anyone I'm from Jacksonville, they say, "Like the song?" No... that's Jackson.
Maybe we deal with different constituencies ;D
Quote from: FlaBoy on February 15, 2017, 10:53:39 AM
Quote from: Adam White on February 15, 2017, 10:45:25 AM
I don't know how "on the map" Jacksonville is. Whenever I tell anyone I'm from Jacksonville, they say, "Like the song?" No... that's Jackson.
Maybe we deal with different constituencies ;D
True. But in all fairness, the Jaguars are my 'home' NFL team ;)
Every city and town in the nation has schools... some are funded better than others with or without a stadium or football team. There are only 32 cities with teams...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 15, 2017, 11:46:50 AM
Every city and town in the nation has schools... some are funded better than others with or without a stadium or football team. There are only 32 cities with teams...
32 Teams, not cities as NY and LA have 2 teams. While I agree with your basic premise and the editorial is poorly written in so much as it really fails to establish a link between school funding and stadium construction, the bigger issue is the use of Tax Payer money where the tax payer does not have a voice in it's use to go to stadium construction/improvements which benefits the few where a solid and comprehensive local public education system benefits the many.
Quote from: Snufflee on February 15, 2017, 11:54:55 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 15, 2017, 11:46:50 AM
Every city and town in the nation has schools... some are funded better than others with or without a stadium or football team. There are only 32 cities with teams...
32 Teams, not cities as NY and LA have 2 teams. While I agree with your basic premise and the editorial is poorly written in so much as it really fails to establish a link between school funding and stadium construction, the bigger issue is the use of Tax Payer money where the tax payer does not have a voice in it's use to go to stadium construction/improvements which benefits the few where a solid and comprehensive local public education system benefits the many.
Well that makes it even more exclusive... 30 cities have NFL teams and facilities. I think we all understand tax payer money is used for the construction and upkeep of these facilities. San Diego said no more and perhaps their schools will now be better for it. Perhaps someone will do a study outlining where the money that would have been spent replacing the crappy old stadium is now being spent...
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 03:07:35 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 15, 2017, 08:17:19 AM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 08:01:10 AM
BUH BUH...MY FOOTBAW! TEH JAGZ R SO IMPORTANT! DON'T U KNO HOW MANY FORTUNE 1 MILLION BUSINESSES COME HERE JUST CUZ WE GOT TEH JAGZ?!!? STICK 2 SPORTS
YEAH TEH GATAS ARE THE ONLY FOOTBAW WORTHY OF SHOUTED CAPS AND SWITCHING NUMBERS 4 WORDS BEC4USE NO SCAMS IN COLLE6E FOOTBAW AND ONLY SOPHISTICATED SMART F4NS. TEBOOOOOOOOOOW
Pretttttty sure my tax dollars aren't making the billionaire owners of the Gators (or the Dawgs, or the Noles) more rich.
The NFL is kleptocracy. Pure and simple. Tax dollars enriching billionaires at the expense of the poor. And then they gauge you on tickets, food, drink etc. It's why I dont really give a shit about the Jags and laugh when they lose. They're a drain on us. All academic studies prove this. But, as I have said ad nauseum on this website, no one fucking cares because football.
College football certainly
is just as bad as you're claiming about the NFL. There's the fact that most don't make enough to support themselves and rely on subsidies from the schools, meaning public schools
do take money from students and other taxpayers. Your Gators are one of the few that don't, but the patsies they pad their record with multiple times a year sure do, so they benefit from it. Then there's the fact that
all teams, including Florida, make their budgets through boosters. Boosters' donations qualify as tax-deductible "charitable donations" to the schools, meaning a loss of tax revenue. And then are the truly egregious problems, like the fact that college football is a billion dollar industry that
doesn't pay the players even though the coaches routinely make several times the salary of their college's president and highest paid faculty.
Your posts imply that all Jaguars or NFL fans are totally blind to the various problems of the NFL model BECAUSE FOOTBAW. This is false on its face, as many of us Jags fans on this very forum talk about these problems pretty regularly. But what's irritating is that you make these statements despite being one of the biggest Gators fanboys on Metro Jacksonville. This suggests that either (1) you're blind to the problems of college footbaw, which would make you just as bad as your straw NFL fans, or (2) that you understand the problems but like the game in spite of them, which would make you pretty equivalent to most of the Jags fans who actually post on this site. Neither option justifies a sense of superiority.
Sometimes stadiums have little to do with school funding and quality.......
Several Years and $1 Billion Later, San Diego Schools Are Actually in Worse Shape
Per the Voice of San Diego;
http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/topics/education/several-years-and-1-billion-later-san-diego-schools-are-actually-in-worse-shape/ (http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/topics/education/several-years-and-1-billion-later-san-diego-schools-are-actually-in-worse-shape/)
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 03:07:35 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 15, 2017, 08:17:19 AM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 08:01:10 AM
BUH BUH...MY FOOTBAW! TEH JAGZ R SO IMPORTANT! DON'T U KNO HOW MANY FORTUNE 1 MILLION BUSINESSES COME HERE JUST CUZ WE GOT TEH JAGZ?!!? STICK 2 SPORTS
YEAH TEH GATAS ARE THE ONLY FOOTBAW WORTHY OF SHOUTED CAPS AND SWITCHING NUMBERS 4 WORDS BEC4USE NO SCAMS IN COLLE6E FOOTBAW AND ONLY SOPHISTICATED SMART F4NS. TEBOOOOOOOOOOW
Pretttttty sure my tax dollars aren't making the billionaire owners of the Gators (or the Dawgs, or the Noles) more rich.
The NFL is kleptocracy. Pure and simple. Tax dollars enriching billionaires at the expense of the poor. And then they gauge you on tickets, food, drink etc. It's why I dont really give a shit about the Jags and laugh when they lose. They're a drain on us. All academic studies prove this. But, as I have said ad nauseum on this website, no one fucking cares because football.
Ad nauseum, you got that right.
Just because you don't care for professional football does not make the NFL a kleptocracy. The market dictates that if Jacksonville taxpayers do not subsidize the Jaguars, the Jaguars will no longer exist in Jacksonville. If the people of Jacksonville want the Jaguars, they aren't stupid for supporting public financing of stadium improvements. They are allocating their tax dollars toward something they value. So cut the HURR DURR FOOTBAW shit.
And it's gouge. They GOUGE you on concessions because you are a captive audience inside the stadium, but they GAUGE demand and set ticket prices based on that. Of course, they also allow you to bring in outside food, so they aren't even very good at gouging you. HURR DURR.
Quote from: JBTripper on February 15, 2017, 04:43:48 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 03:07:35 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 15, 2017, 08:17:19 AM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 08:01:10 AM
BUH BUH...MY FOOTBAW! TEH JAGZ R SO IMPORTANT! DON'T U KNO HOW MANY FORTUNE 1 MILLION BUSINESSES COME HERE JUST CUZ WE GOT TEH JAGZ?!!? STICK 2 SPORTS
YEAH TEH GATAS ARE THE ONLY FOOTBAW WORTHY OF SHOUTED CAPS AND SWITCHING NUMBERS 4 WORDS BEC4USE NO SCAMS IN COLLE6E FOOTBAW AND ONLY SOPHISTICATED SMART F4NS. TEBOOOOOOOOOOW
Pretttttty sure my tax dollars aren't making the billionaire owners of the Gators (or the Dawgs, or the Noles) more rich.
The NFL is kleptocracy. Pure and simple. Tax dollars enriching billionaires at the expense of the poor. And then they gauge you on tickets, food, drink etc. It's why I dont really give a shit about the Jags and laugh when they lose. They're a drain on us. All academic studies prove this. But, as I have said ad nauseum on this website, no one fucking cares because football.
Ad nauseum, you got that right.
Just because you don't care for professional football does not make the NFL a kleptocracy. The market dictates that if Jacksonville taxpayers do not subsidize the Jaguars, the Jaguars will no longer exist in Jacksonville. If the people of Jacksonville want the Jaguars, they aren't stupid for supporting public financing of stadium improvements. They are allocating their tax dollars toward something they value. So cut the HURR DURR FOOTBAW shit.
And it's gouge. They GOUGE you on concessions because you are a captive audience inside the stadium, but they GAUGE demand and set ticket prices based on that. Of course, they also allow you to bring in outside food, so they aren't even very good at gouging you. HURR DURR.
I like professional football, but I agree with MMR that it is a kleptocracy (well, I agree with what he meant by saying that - I think the NFL is more like a cartel or a cabal - or any other number of words starting with "c").
Quote from: Snufflee on February 15, 2017, 11:54:55 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 15, 2017, 11:46:50 AM
Every city and town in the nation has schools... some are funded better than others with or without a stadium or football team. There are only 32 cities with teams...
32 Teams, not cities as NY and LA have 2 teams. While I agree with your basic premise and the editorial is poorly written in so much as it really fails to establish a link between school funding and stadium construction, the bigger issue is the use of Tax Payer money where the tax payer does not have a voice in it's use to go to stadium construction/improvements which benefits the few where a solid and comprehensive local public education system benefits the many.
I agree. Show me an actual link between stadium spending and school spending.
I've mentioned this on past threads before and it still rings just as true as ever, but 2 of the states that I bid jobs in: Texas and South Carolina are building and renovating schools at a mad pace. I'm currently working on/just shipped 5 different schools in the Katy TX ISD right now each with an overall projected valuation between $30-50M.
And after a quick search, there are 40 projects bidding right now across the USA within those parameters - none of them are in Florida.
Quote from: JBTripper on February 15, 2017, 04:43:48 PM
The market dictates that if Jacksonville taxpayers do not subsidize the Jaguars, the Jaguars will no longer exist in Jacksonville.
And shouldn't a conservative, Republican dominated city like Jacksonville heed what the market says? ;)
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 17, 2017, 12:16:28 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on February 15, 2017, 04:43:48 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 03:07:35 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 15, 2017, 08:17:19 AM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 08:01:10 AM
BUH BUH...MY FOOTBAW! TEH JAGZ R SO IMPORTANT! DON'T U KNO HOW MANY FORTUNE 1 MILLION BUSINESSES COME HERE JUST CUZ WE GOT TEH JAGZ?!!? STICK 2 SPORTS
YEAH TEH GATAS ARE THE ONLY FOOTBAW WORTHY OF SHOUTED CAPS AND SWITCHING NUMBERS 4 WORDS BEC4USE NO SCAMS IN COLLE6E FOOTBAW AND ONLY SOPHISTICATED SMART F4NS. TEBOOOOOOOOOOW
Pretttttty sure my tax dollars aren't making the billionaire owners of the Gators (or the Dawgs, or the Noles) more rich.
The NFL is kleptocracy. Pure and simple. Tax dollars enriching billionaires at the expense of the poor. And then they gauge you on tickets, food, drink etc. It's why I dont really give a shit about the Jags and laugh when they lose. They're a drain on us. All academic studies prove this. But, as I have said ad nauseum on this website, no one fucking cares because football.
Ad nauseum, you got that right.
Just because you don't care for professional football does not make the NFL a kleptocracy. The market dictates that if Jacksonville taxpayers do not subsidize the Jaguars, the Jaguars will no longer exist in Jacksonville. If the people of Jacksonville want the Jaguars, they aren't stupid for supporting public financing of stadium improvements. They are allocating their tax dollars toward something they value. So cut the HURR DURR FOOTBAW shit.
And it's gouge. They GOUGE you on concessions because you are a captive audience inside the stadium, but they GAUGE demand and set ticket prices based on that. Of course, they also allow you to bring in outside food, so they aren't even very good at gouging you. HURR DURR.
Ummmm, pretty sure actual Jaguars fans make up a minority of the population and, given an actual choice, they would vote for things that benefit them, not a billionaire. But, they aren't given that choice-- probably because power brokers know they'd lose.
And, man, way to sock it to me over-- in a rush-- riting gauge instead of gouge. Really nailed me their.
If you think spending on the Jaguars would fail if put up to the voters, you're naive. The fact that you complain about football despite being a class-1 Gators fanboy shows just how deeply the game runs in this town. Not that any of the expenses we've handled so far are the kind of things that need to go to a referendum.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 17, 2017, 12:32:23 PM
Further, just because some fans wants the Jags doesnt mean my tax dollars should go to corporate welfare for a billionaire whose yacht is nicer than 90% of the homes in the quad-county area. If those fans want to subsidize the stadium, then so be it. Don't short change my roads, schools, etc* for a building to be used 10 times a year to showcase shitty football.
* insert meaningless argument about "but but but, the hotel tax pays for it!" nonsense.
I've said it before, but this exact same argument is made about literally any form of quality of life spending. In fact, I've heard parents with kids in private school bitch about their tax dollars going to public schools - "why don't the people who use the service pay for it? Don't short change my [whatever it is those people spend their money on] for a building I'll never use".
Quote from: Tacachale on February 17, 2017, 12:48:56 PM
I've heard parents with kids in private school bitch about their tax dollars going to public schools - "why don't the people who use the service pay for it?
Betsy DeVos plans to fix that.
Quote from: Adam White on February 15, 2017, 04:56:59 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on February 15, 2017, 04:43:48 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 03:07:35 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 15, 2017, 08:17:19 AM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 08:01:10 AM
BUH BUH...MY FOOTBAW! TEH JAGZ R SO IMPORTANT! DON'T U KNO HOW MANY FORTUNE 1 MILLION BUSINESSES COME HERE JUST CUZ WE GOT TEH JAGZ?!!? STICK 2 SPORTS
YEAH TEH GATAS ARE THE ONLY FOOTBAW WORTHY OF SHOUTED CAPS AND SWITCHING NUMBERS 4 WORDS BEC4USE NO SCAMS IN COLLE6E FOOTBAW AND ONLY SOPHISTICATED SMART F4NS. TEBOOOOOOOOOOW
Pretttttty sure my tax dollars aren't making the billionaire owners of the Gators (or the Dawgs, or the Noles) more rich.
The NFL is kleptocracy. Pure and simple. Tax dollars enriching billionaires at the expense of the poor. And then they gauge you on tickets, food, drink etc. It's why I dont really give a shit about the Jags and laugh when they lose. They're a drain on us. All academic studies prove this. But, as I have said ad nauseum on this website, no one fucking cares because football.
Ad nauseum, you got that right.
Just because you don't care for professional football does not make the NFL a kleptocracy. The market dictates that if Jacksonville taxpayers do not subsidize the Jaguars, the Jaguars will no longer exist in Jacksonville. If the people of Jacksonville want the Jaguars, they aren't stupid for supporting public financing of stadium improvements. They are allocating their tax dollars toward something they value. So cut the HURR DURR FOOTBAW shit.
And it's gouge. They GOUGE you on concessions because you are a captive audience inside the stadium, but they GAUGE demand and set ticket prices based on that. Of course, they also allow you to bring in outside food, so they aren't even very good at gouging you. HURR DURR.
I like professional football, but I agree with MMR that it is a kleptocracy (well, I agree with what he meant by saying that - I think the NFL is more like a cartel or a cabal - or any other number of words starting with "c").
What the NFL really is is a monopoly. They control the market on their product and ensure that the supply (the number of teams) is artificially lower than the demand (the number of cities that want/could support a team). That means that cities that want teams have to do a lot more to get and keep them. But we may be seeing the crest of the wave as to how much cities will put up with. Now several cities (including LA, the second biggest) have pushed back against what the NFL (and other sports leagues) are trying to make them do.
Quote from: jlmann on February 17, 2017, 12:53:20 PM
yeah seems like a great idea to let the people who elected trump vote on every major line item in the budget
very productive
I don't know how "Jags vote" would go but imo the people who actually pay taxes see benefits in having a NFL team here based on the costs. otherwise we wouldn't
I hear some people like parks more than others. Maybe we should vote on that too
MMR et al are correct that NFL stadiums don't generate a real net benefit above the costs, economically speaking. Most studies show this. But it's also a quality of life expense. People - a lot of people - get a lot of personal benefit from having a team that they can root for here. It's hard to think of another quality of life expense that would affect as many people locally as the Jaguars do.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 17, 2017, 12:48:56 PM
I've said it before, but this exact same argument is made about literally any form of quality of life spending. In fact, I've heard parents with kids in private school bitch about their tax dollars going to public schools - "why don't the people who use the service pay for it? Don't short change my [whatever it is those people spend their money on] for a building I'll never use".
And, yet, railroads are told that they must "make a profit and stand on their own", but billions of tax dollars go to build the airports and run the FAA to keep the fliers safe! I also don't have any of my family in jail, but I'm expected to pay for all those prisoners. If people can't figure out how society works, and how we make financial decisions on how to spend that money, that's really sad.
Newark, NJ has the highest per student cost average and yet still has some of the worst schools in the country. I'm not saying money spent on schools is a bad thing, but incompetent leadership is. There is so much more to having good schools than large spending, and making a red herring with this football stadium 'taking up all of the money' fallacy.
Quote from: I-10east on February 17, 2017, 02:55:38 PM
Newark, NJ has the highest per student cost average and yet still has some of the worst schools in the country. I'm not saying money spent on schools is a bad thing, but incompetent leadership is. There is so much more to having good schools than large spending, and making a red herring with this football stadium 'taking up all of the money' fallacy.
I don't disagree with you about that. I think this is more an issue of priorities than it is anything else. That said, the one link between football and education seemed to be that some communities fund education via property taxes and NFL teams don't pay those.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 17, 2017, 12:16:28 PM
Quote from: JBTripper on February 15, 2017, 04:43:48 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 03:07:35 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 15, 2017, 08:17:19 AM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 15, 2017, 08:01:10 AM
BUH BUH...MY FOOTBAW! TEH JAGZ R SO IMPORTANT! DON'T U KNO HOW MANY FORTUNE 1 MILLION BUSINESSES COME HERE JUST CUZ WE GOT TEH JAGZ?!!? STICK 2 SPORTS
YEAH TEH GATAS ARE THE ONLY FOOTBAW WORTHY OF SHOUTED CAPS AND SWITCHING NUMBERS 4 WORDS BEC4USE NO SCAMS IN COLLE6E FOOTBAW AND ONLY SOPHISTICATED SMART F4NS. TEBOOOOOOOOOOW
Pretttttty sure my tax dollars aren't making the billionaire owners of the Gators (or the Dawgs, or the Noles) more rich.
The NFL is kleptocracy. Pure and simple. Tax dollars enriching billionaires at the expense of the poor. And then they gauge you on tickets, food, drink etc. It's why I dont really give a shit about the Jags and laugh when they lose. They're a drain on us. All academic studies prove this. But, as I have said ad nauseum on this website, no one fucking cares because football.
Ad nauseum, you got that right.
Just because you don't care for professional football does not make the NFL a kleptocracy. The market dictates that if Jacksonville taxpayers do not subsidize the Jaguars, the Jaguars will no longer exist in Jacksonville. If the people of Jacksonville want the Jaguars, they aren't stupid for supporting public financing of stadium improvements. They are allocating their tax dollars toward something they value. So cut the HURR DURR FOOTBAW shit.
And it's gouge. They GOUGE you on concessions because you are a captive audience inside the stadium, but they GAUGE demand and set ticket prices based on that. Of course, they also allow you to bring in outside food, so they aren't even very good at gouging you. HURR DURR.
Ummmm, pretty sure actual Jaguars fans make up a minority of the population and, given an actual choice, they would vote for things that benefit them, not a billionaire. But, they aren't given that choice-- probably because power brokers know they'd lose.
And, man, way to sock it to me over-- in a rush-- riting gauge instead of gouge. Really nailed me their.
I'll assume you were in a rush in 'riting' this as well, and move right past that. I was trying point out that ticket prices aren't gouged, they're set based on what people are willing to pay. Food prices can't actually be gouged, because fans are permitted to bring in outside food. Beer prices are gouged, granted, but it's still far cheaper to drink at a Jags game than at a Gator game, where you have to give $12,000/year for the privilege.
It would be interesting to see the Jaguars continued existence in Jacksonville put to a vote. Your argument of corporate welfare and spending money to benefit a billionaire would no doubt be the rally of Jagsxit campaign. I think the Remain campaign would likely center on civic pride, private investment in things like an amphitheater, a waterfront Four Seasons hotel, athletic trainers in Duval County Schools, the Barnett Building redevelopment, not to mention the very real economic impact of the singular entity in this city that is identifiable beyond Clay County. I think the people of Jacksonville will make the right choice.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 17, 2017, 12:32:23 PM
Further, just because some fans wants the Jags doesnt mean my tax dollars should go to corporate welfare for a billionaire whose yacht is nicer than 90% of the homes in the quad-county area. If those fans want to subsidize the stadium, then so be it. Don't short change my roads, schools, etc* for a building to be used 10 times a year to showcase shitty football.
* insert meaningless argument about "but but but, the hotel tax pays for it!" nonsense.
This is fine. You can vote for candidates who oppose public spending on stadium improvements, and feel really good about yourself when that big yacht docks someplace else and its owner can spend his money there instead of here. That's totally up to you.
In the meantime, I'm not going to lose any sleep over spending on the stadium somehow coming at a cost for bridge and road maintenance in this town. Do you even drive around here? Let's recap current projects, recently completed projects, or projects soon to begin: Overland Bridge, Fuller-Warren/shared-use path, 9-B, 295 express lanes, State/Union street resurfacing, San Marco streetscape, JTB/I-95 interchange, whatever they're doing out by Regency Square... the list goes on and on and on. There does not appear to be any shortage of funds for any of these.
As for education expenditures, Duval County spends about $9k/student, or roughly $2k more per student than the state's top district and Duval's immediate neighbor to the south: St. Johns County. So whatever problems plague DCPS can't be attributed to funds that got spent on scoreboards instead of whiteboards, I don't think.
So, again, if you don't want your tax dollars to subsidize the NFL then you can vote for representatives in city government who share that point of view. If those people don't get elected, and it's still really bothering you, then the list of cities where this sort of thing doesn't happen is more than 19,000 lines long.
Quote from: JBTripper on February 17, 2017, 04:16:47 PM
As for education expenditures, Duval County spends about $9k/student, or roughly $2k more per student than the state's top district and Duval's immediate neighbor to the south: St. Johns County. So whatever problems plague DCPS can't be attributed to funds that got spent on scoreboards instead of whiteboards, I don't think.
JB, I'm not coming down on one side or the other in this discussion, but as an educator, I feel the need to point out something. When "per pupil funding" is talked about, those are almost always the costs involved of running the system, not building the facilities. A huge percentage of that number is labor, often more than 80%. When they want new buildings, those funds don't come out of operating dollars. I've never seen a state that allowed that.
To further comment on JB's comment, remember the stadium is owned by the city. All money spent by Kahn, becomes a city asset. We benefit in getting a amphitheater and indoor facility for $45 million, not ninety million. This is no different than building the new Courthouse, removing the old courthouse parking lot or fire stations. Capital improvements for the improvement of quality of life. I don't plan to use the courthouse, jails, and money road improvements, but my tax dollars are still used for this. My children no longer attend schools, but I pay school taxes. Also, I always revert to my thought that JAX is one of the lowest taxed cities of it's population. I would pay more if it is used efficiently and productively.
I will be interested in attendance figures for the monster truck events this weekend... You going MMR? ;D
The economic impact of stadiums (and teams) is overstated, but the negatives suggested by the critics are also overstated. Stadiums cost a lot of money to build, but they do return quite a bit of money to the local economy. Much of the money to build them comes from things like hotel taxes, and the teams contribute to hotel tax revenues (especially in a smaller market like Jacksonville). Also, the trend to make them multi-use, or include secondary features that are multi-use like the amphitheater, enable them to be used more than the few times a year that there are NFL games. So even just looking at the economics, they are not (necessarily) a "drain on us all".
The most consistent thing I've read is that when looking at the economics is that stadiums have huge opportunity costs - ie, they take money that could be spent on something else that might have a greater economic impact. But if you're looking at that, you also have to look at the quality of life gains. That's always going to be subjective, but it's clear that in our city at least, huge numbers of people enjoy football and see the benefit in having a home team to root for. They also can see the benefit of stadiums helping spur development downtown, even if they don't have a huge overall impact on the wider metro area, and the benefit of a greater sense of regional identity.
This comes from one of the various studies that speaks to something the critics (like those in this thread) almost always miss:
"Sport facilities and teams create a variety of benefits that are completely unrelated to their ability to generate jobs or income. The cultural importance and psychological benefits associated with professional sport teams likely outweigh their economic impacts, providing residents a common ground, a topic of conversation, and sometimes a source of pride. An entire region can benefit from an enhanced central city image, and many believe that professional sports teams simply improve quality of life. Residents never need purchase a ticket to derive utility from a sports team. These benefits exist regardless of any contribution of the team or facility to the local economy."
By Charles A. Santo, "Cities, Stadiums, and Subsidies: Why Cities Spend So Much on Sports" (https://books.google.com/books?id=aVp6dWPKRmEC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=%22outweigh+their+economic+impacts,+providing%22&source=bl&ots=AYGsL5gxqW&sig=Ez-xIcyLWesU9lMhwhrBRDLYD10&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtoMPnjZrSAhVnqVQKHQYwDkcQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=%22outweigh%20their%20economic%20impacts%2C%20providing%22&f=false), p. 87. In Sport and Public Policy: Social, Political, and Economic Perspectives, 2010.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 18, 2017, 12:00:21 PM
The most consistent thing I've read is that when looking at the economics is that stadiums have huge opportunity costs - ie, they take money that could be spent on something else that might have a greater economic impact.
If you laser focus in on this single concept, I'd ask anti-stadium crowd, "What should the money have been spent on?"
If you had $100M to spend over the past decade, where would you have spent it and in what way would the impact be better for Jacksonville overall?
My personal easy answer would be into a fixed transit system for downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods to have better access to downtown, the stadium district, and Riverside/San Marco/Springfield as a whole, but for the sake of argument let's assume that without the $100M going to the stadium, we also no longer have the Jags in town.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 19, 2017, 01:29:55 PM
If you had $100M to spend over the past decade, where would you have spent it and in what way would the impact be better for Jacksonville overall?
My personal easy answer would be into a fixed transit system for downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods to have better access to downtown, the stadium district, and Riverside/San Marco/Springfield as a whole, but for the sake of argument let's assume that without the $100M going to the stadium, we also no longer have the Jags in town.
I'd love it if we had a fixed transit system, but I doubt it would have been worth the money.
If I could allocate $100M over the past decade, I would have started (and created a plan to continue the expansion of) a managed city trust fund that would accumulate money for future use in capital improvements. I believe several resource rich governments have done similar things. The idea would be to allow the fund's investment returns to grow (and be added to from the city budget) over a decade or so until it reached $1 billion (or any other arbitrary goal) at which point 80% of the investment income derived from it each year would be used by the city for capital improvements. The remaining 20% would be reinvested. This would allow the fund to continue to grow and provide a steady stream of income for the city to use for major projects. It could eventually be used to offset the need to tax, but I believe the total elimination of taxes would have many negative consequences and therefore the money would be better spent on improving transit, funding revitalization efforts, incentive packages and loans for small businesses, tourism marketing efforts, education capital improvements, and arts and cultural programs.
Quote from: remc86007 on February 19, 2017, 02:00:02 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 19, 2017, 01:29:55 PM
If you had $100M to spend over the past decade, where would you have spent it and in what way would the impact be better for Jacksonville overall?
My personal easy answer would be into a fixed transit system for downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods to have better access to downtown, the stadium district, and Riverside/San Marco/Springfield as a whole, but for the sake of argument let's assume that without the $100M going to the stadium, we also no longer have the Jags in town.
I'd love it if we had a fixed transit system, but I doubt it would have been worth the money.
If I could allocate $100M over the past decade, I would have started (and created a plan to continue the expansion of) a managed city trust fund that would accumulate money for future use in capital improvements. I believe several resource rich governments have done similar things. The idea would be to allow the fund's investment returns to grow (and be added to from the city budget) over a decade or so until it reached $1 billion (or any other arbitrary goal) at which point 80% of the investment income derived from it each year would be used by the city for capital improvements. The remaining 20% would be reinvested. This would allow the fund to continue to grow and provide a steady stream of income for the city to use for major projects. It could eventually be used to offset the need to tax, but I believe the total elimination of taxes would have many negative consequences and therefore the money would be better spent on improving transit, funding revitalization efforts, incentive packages and loans for small businesses, tourism marketing efforts, education capital improvements, and arts and cultural programs.
That's a total non-answer, and forgive me for simplifying this to the N-th degree, but the money used to fund things like the stadium and other tourism based projects is already collected from taxes and (correct me if I'm wrong) should currently be invested until they're ready to fund projects.
What would you actually spend the money on? The question is based on the typical arguments given by the anti-stadium crowd: we should invest more in the arts, we should invest into the schools (not permitted BTW, separate pots of money), we should activate more parks (which I agree with BTW, the relative chump change used to fund Hemming was doing wonders, but apparently was in and of itself forcing the city into default), etc. etc. etc....
And I'm not saying that those are bad things, but how does that better Jacksonville as a whole?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 19, 2017, 02:49:09 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on February 19, 2017, 02:00:02 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 19, 2017, 01:29:55 PM
If you had $100M to spend over the past decade, where would you have spent it and in what way would the impact be better for Jacksonville overall?
My personal easy answer would be into a fixed transit system for downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods to have better access to downtown, the stadium district, and Riverside/San Marco/Springfield as a whole, but for the sake of argument let's assume that without the $100M going to the stadium, we also no longer have the Jags in town.
I'd love it if we had a fixed transit system, but I doubt it would have been worth the money.
If I could allocate $100M over the past decade, I would have started (and created a plan to continue the expansion of) a managed city trust fund that would accumulate money for future use in capital improvements. I believe several resource rich governments have done similar things. The idea would be to allow the fund's investment returns to grow (and be added to from the city budget) over a decade or so until it reached $1 billion (or any other arbitrary goal) at which point 80% of the investment income derived from it each year would be used by the city for capital improvements. The remaining 20% would be reinvested. This would allow the fund to continue to grow and provide a steady stream of income for the city to use for major projects. It could eventually be used to offset the need to tax, but I believe the total elimination of taxes would have many negative consequences and therefore the money would be better spent on improving transit, funding revitalization efforts, incentive packages and loans for small businesses, tourism marketing efforts, education capital improvements, and arts and cultural programs.
That's a total non-answer, and forgive me for simplifying this to the N-th degree, but the money used to fund things like the stadium and other tourism based projects is already collected from taxes and (correct me if I'm wrong) should currently be invested until they're ready to fund projects.
What would you actually spend the money on? The question is based on the typical arguments given by the anti-stadium crowd: we should invest more in the arts, we should invest into the schools (not permitted BTW, separate pots of money), we should activate more parks (which I agree with BTW, the relative chump change used to fund Hemming was doing wonders, but apparently was in and of itself forcing the city into default), etc. etc. etc....
And I'm not saying that those are bad things, but how does that better Jacksonville as a whole?
Playing devil's advocate, it would only take a rewriting of some laws to allow bed tax money to be spent on something else. Schools would be tricky, as they have their own property tax allocations, but it could be spent on infrastructure, parks, etc. However, without the Jaguars there would be a lot less bed tax money coming in.
At any rate, I doubt any one project would ever get the widespread public support a stadium and major league team get. Even the "anti-stadium crowd" would never agree on projects. For every 1 anti-stadium Metro Jaxson who would presumably like to see the money go toward something else, there are 20 Mike Hogans who oppose stadium improvements because they oppose nearly any public spending in general, and would rather just slash the city budget instead.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 19, 2017, 02:49:09 PM
That's a total non-answer, and forgive me for simplifying this to the N-th degree, but the money used to fund things like the stadium and other tourism based projects is already collected from taxes and (correct me if I'm wrong) should currently be invested until they're ready to fund projects.
What would you actually spend the money on? The question is based on the typical arguments given by the anti-stadium crowd: we should invest more in the arts, we should invest into the schools (not permitted BTW, separate pots of money), we should activate more parks (which I agree with BTW, the relative chump change used to fund Hemming was doing wonders, but apparently was in and of itself forcing the city into default), etc. etc. etc....
And I'm not saying that those are bad things, but how does that better Jacksonville as a whole?
I wouldn't say it's a non-answer; I don't personally believe that the city could (or would) have spent the money in a more productive way a decade ago, but if the Jags weren't an option, I would propose creating a substantial capital investment fund (much larger than the current bed tax fund etc.) so that as opportunities arise in the future there would be plenty of money to cover them. If you don't like that answer, see the end of my previous post: "improving transit, funding revitalization efforts, incentive packages and loans for small businesses, tourism marketing efforts, education capital improvements, and arts and cultural programs."
Here are some more (specific) ideas: lay a municipal owned fiber network (and provide gigabit speeds to everyone for a nominal rate), fund significant incentive programs for bringing jobs to the northwest side of town, create a city funded vocational training program, increase funding for programs to combat homelessness, rehab all downtown (city owned) abandoned buildings so that they become financially viable for private redevelopment, install and maintain public restrooms downtown, fund the shipyards environmental remediation, create a light rail system that connects the airport to downtown, build a convention center, create a downtown marina, invest in solar for municipal buildings (if it has a viable ROI), create a municipal owned Jacksonville history museum downtown, build a downtown aquarium, hire more police (and monitor if it helps), give significant incentives to bring JU, UNF, and Florida Coastal downtown, fix any food deserts that exist in the city...