KBJ Just Doesn't Get It!
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/kbj_demolition/DCP_4294.jpg)
In downtown areas, when a building is destroyed it is often referred to as a missing tooth . This is because in downtowns, the majority of buildings do not stand alone, but are generally part of a continuous wall of buildings fronting on the street. The missing tooth analogy is appropriate, given the unsightliness of a missing tooth and its overall impact on appearances. Such impacts are especially dramatic when the location of the missing building(s) is at a street corner, where the absence of the building is noticeable from four directions.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/430
>:( How could they need more parking?? The entire rear of that block is already surface lots!!!!
KBJ has done some great work and is full of bright individuals that could use their creativity to think up a better use for that property than a parking lot (oh but it will be landscaped). the saddest part is that they are requesting demolition of a building that is in the state it is because of their OWN NEGLEGENCE!!! They didn't recently buy the building, they've had it for years!! Come 'on guys, where's your creativity and devotion to the urban fabric your building is a part of??
I've lost a lot of respect for this firm.
if we can't rely on architects to do the right thing downtown, I'm afraid downtown is doomed! These are people that supposedly studied everything that was mentioned in the article. Architects should be the ones offering up the innovative, the creative solutions. After this article KBJ should strip architects off their name and just call themselves what they are....draftsmen. Hey KBJ... why don't you pick up a copy of The Fountainhead and read about a real architect.
An architect is someone who is required to see the 'end product' without it already being in existence. This is one of the foremost firms in the city, to have this request coming from them is very discouraging to anyone that wants to see DT reach it's true potential. What about corporate responsibility, or does that even exist anymore ?
The KBJ folks need to let Tony Allegretti and anyone else who is interested, take a walk through this building and let them bring alternatives to the table.
This building is directly across the street from the Ambassador Hotel, in which a major renovation is eventually planned. If someone can envision condos in that building, why is it so far-fetched to picture a restaurant or tavern or more condos in this building?????
Is DVI going to take a stand on this issue? Is the Historical Commission? This building was found to meet 4 of the 7 criterias to be considered historic. Will a building have to designed by Frank Lloyd Wright to be protected in this city?
What is wrong with this town? This must be a joke. Where is Boy Wonder?
info@kbj.com
...at the King St. station. Take the skyway!
Nice thinking KBJerks...
We consistently hear from you city leaders that when it comes to downtown parking, we actually have more than enough. And yet, LUZ, in all their God-given planning wisdom, (who knew that publicly elected officials immediately acquired land use & zoning education & skills upon election) have over-ruled the historic commission (who actually have degrees in their field and know what they are talking about) to recommend destroying an historic church for MORE PARKING.
Please don't let KBJ destroy another historic building downtown. Check out the current downtown aerial shot to see the "beauty" of surface parking lots in Jacksonville already.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/430/79/
Here is Charlie Patton's (T-U) story on the destruction of the church...
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/050707/met_168146403.shtml
To the overall council - I urge you to listen to the recommendation of people who know what they are doing & have education to back up their recommendations - the Historic Commission. Additionally, is this move part of the Downtown Overlay plan we always talk about sticking to? Is this part of our Downtown Master Plan?
Art - as my councilman - can you please tell me when the vote is on this?
One more thought: Why must someone always be keeping you guys in line? Why is it so rare that someone in your group will ever just stand up and do the right thing without be called out publicly by the media? The mental image that comes to mind in regards to how you vote on these issues is just a bunch of noisy cattle being herded along - no one ever stepping out of line. Now I know the Historic Commission doesn't donate to your campaigns, but COME ON - think about it - do we really NEED another surface parking lot? Who's herding the cattle on this vote?
Yours sincerely,
Zoo, they don't even have to go that far. The downtown trolley route takes the thing dead smack dab right in front of their building. We have mass transit and parking garages in downtown for a reason. If KBJ can't "lower" themselves to using these things, then maybe it's time for them to consider relocating. At least then, someone can eventually come in and rid downtown of the rest of the parking on that block.
You must be kidding, you expect KBJ staff or their clients to have to use the Skyway or Trolley.....come on now, what are we thinking. Our City Council needs to step up to the plate on this and put a stop to it. If KBJ doesnt like it, then head to the burbs and have all the parking you want at your front door.
Ok people, let's get real here. First, I had to laugh at the little blurb about the Ambassador Hotel. That place has been "under development" for years. It will never be converted to anything usefull, because IT WILL COST TOO MUCH MONEY! Developers (the ones who really drive the architecture of your city) call the shots. And the shots are called by the bottom line. You don't like it? Become a developer and change things.
Now, let me say that, NO, I do not agree that this structure should be torn down for another surface parking lot, nor a multi-storied parking lot for that matter. But to say that this building is historically significant is a bit much. The Hayden-Burns Library, that is significant. The Florida Life Building (Trio) is significant. A ratty old church building that was sitting vacant and unused for over a decade BEFORE KBJ bought the structure is not significant. Where were your bleeding hearts for this building 30 years ago when the pastor abandoned it? Where were your words of recrimination for him?
I think that, perhaps, this building would be worth saving....20 YEARS AGO. Also, no one has bothered to mention the vast undertaking of Asbestos abatement that KBJ already went through in an attempt to begin the process of restoring the building. But upon inspection, the roof is entirely unsound. The walls have become so termite infested that the only thing holding the building up is the black mold found high is the eaves. While I more than welcome anyone to come up with a viable solution in the hopes of saving any building, you still have to be realistic. And realistically speaking, this building is simply not worth saving in hopes of renovation and adding 3 or 4 more condo units to the cityscape. And anyone who has actually been inside this little building on the corner would be able to immediately see that it is not spacious and would be suited for nothing better than storage, a few offices, a few condos/apartments (which would require on site parking by the way), or perhaps an assembly hall of some kind. All of these things make it completely undesirable to any reputable businessman with half the sense of my 8 year old daughter.
So, to make a short story long...you all want to throw accusations at those who would do "something" with the site. Why not instead use that fervor to enact some real change in our city which we all love.
QUOTE: Why not instead use that fervor to enact some real change in our city which we all love.
You mean...something like destroy the building turn it into a surface parking lot. I agree that would enact massive change in the downtown core.
That is what you are forgetting my KBJ-loving friend. They want to tear it down and put in surface parking. Have you seen the aerial shots? There is parking all around there.
http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=p1npz085vd2n&style=o&lvl=2&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=1269462&encType=1
QuoteOk people, let's get real here. First, I had to laugh at the little blurb about the Ambassador Hotel. That place has been "under development" for years. It will never be converted to anything usefull, because IT WILL COST TOO MUCH MONEY!
For the Ambassador to be renovated, its going to need incentives from the historic fund. That's very possible considering several other buildings in far worse shape are currently in the process of being renovated. Nevertheless, I'll agree that you won't see anything happen until the courthouse situation is resolved. Hopefully, we won't get someone with the grand idea of converting that site into a surface lot, before then.
QuoteNow, let me say that, NO, I do not agree that this structure should be torn down for another surface parking lot, nor a multi-storied parking lot for that matter. But to say that this building is historically significant is a bit much. The Hayden-Burns Library, that is significant. The Florida Life Building (Trio) is significant. A ratty old church building that was sitting vacant and unused for over a decade BEFORE KBJ bought the structure is not significant. Where were your bleeding hearts for this building 30 years ago when the pastor abandoned it? Where were your words of recrimination for him?
The historic debate is mute, imo. This situation is more about not allowing a piece of blight (yes I'm saying surface parking lots in downtown environments equate to blight) in the heart of the core. There probably wouldn't even be a debate if KBJ was proposing something that benefitted the core, instead of taking away from it. Also, the church moved out in 1981, the same year KBJ purchased it. Its only in it's condition today, because of 26 years of questionable maintainance by it's owner.
QuoteAnd realistically speaking, this building is simply not worth saving in hopes of renovation and adding 3 or 4 more condo units to the cityscape. And anyone who has actually been inside this little building on the corner would be able to immediately see that it is not spacious and would be suited for nothing better than storage, a few offices, a few condos/apartments (which would require on site parking by the way), or perhaps an assembly hall of some kind. All of these things make it completely undesirable to any reputable businessman with half the sense of my 8 year old daughter.
Seriously, as an graduate architect and urban planner with experience in development, this statement is a bit...."visionless". However, the only true way to judge would be for KBJ to put the site on the market and see who bites. You'd be amazed with what creative types could do, with a +7,000sf brick structure on a 62'x105' lot in the heart of downtown. However, I'd also put money that KBJ has no desire to do such a thing, for fear someone would just make an offer, or else they would have did it decades ago, instead of letting it deteriorate into the condition it is in today. Btw, you can get around the off-street parking requirements in the urban core. We have zoning overlays and depending on the use, you can always pay $1,500 for a PUD.
QuoteSo, to make a short story long...you all want to throw accusations at those who would do "something" with the site. Why not instead use that fervor to enact some real change in our city which we all love.
Sometimes you have to save your city from those you would think are educated enough to understand these issues. So, believe me, we're doing just that. Also, keep in mind, this is not about the building, as much as it is putting a surface parking lot on a prime development parcel in the heart of the Northbank, which is equivalent to putting a strip club, next to a school or liquor store next to a day care. Surface lots are a blight on the urban core, no matter which way you slice it or dress them up with plants. You and I know, KBJ has enough design professionals to come up with solutions to what ever issues they may have that benefits, not only them, but the core as well. Lets see them. ;)
And KBJ allowed this building to fall into disrepair....
As far as historic significance, we don't allow many buildings to stand long enough to reach that designation.
When you look back on what has been lost, it easy to understand how sensitve some of us have become about anything begin torn down downtown.
Just recently a very nice building, formerly Southern Bell, was demolished on Adams Street on a block that still stands empty waiting for the new court house. The city didn't really need that block for the project imo.
Just look from La Villa east and you will see why so many of us are opposed to this...
30 years ago Jax wasn't a sea of surface parking lots.
And although I' sure KBJ will nicely landscape their lot, just the thought of another one is vomit inducing.
BTW if people hadn't stood up against this kind of thing and been vocal The Jacksonville Terminal would be just another surface parking lot.
Granted this building is nowhere nearly as important as the Terminal but if we don't speak out nothing will be left....
QuoteA ratty old church building that was sitting vacant and unused for over a decade BEFORE KBJ bought the structure is not significant. Where were your bleeding hearts for this building 30 years ago when the pastor abandoned it? Where were your words of recrimination for him?
Personally, I could care less about the historic value, and let me say that if they were going to tear it down to build office space with some ground level retail, I don't know if I would care.
The fact here is two things:
1. They bought the building the same year the previous tenant vacated the building. After 26 years, the building required 400K to get it up to code. Tell me again how this isn't demolition by neglect?
2. The downtowen master plan says specifically, "Promote development of structured
parking, particularly within the Central Civic Core, and discourage surface parking throughout
downtown" It also says, "Large surface parking lots are considered a poor use of land and
should be minimized or eliminated where possible".
Finally, it goes on to say, "Prohibit new surface parking lots in the Central Civic Core District requiring all new parking to be provided in structures" and "Discourage the demolition of historic buildings for the construction of parking facilities, at a minimum require the retention and incorporation of the historic facade within the new building form"
What the hell is the point of a downtown master plan that we don't follow?
Again look at this image. This is what we call the downtown of the 12th largest city in the US. It didn't get this way overnight. All those surface lots and craters are the end results of plans, like KBJ's to replace building fabric with parking.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/kbj_demolition/face-jacksonville-aerial.jpg)
This just confirms in my mind that KBJ is a horrible firm. They have done far more harm than good downtown with their ugly buildings which do not address the street. And now, to add insult to injury, they wish to add another surface parking lot downtown, which is the last thing our city needs. Have these people ever visited other cities to see how things are done better in places much smaller than us?? Unbelievable. Sell the structures and more to the suburbs, or better yet Orlando. :(
There were published intentions to redevelop the Ambassador Hotel, as well construct a new buildings for that entire block just a few years ago. The Courthouse impasse put an end to that. Some incentives from the city probably would have been required, but that is no different from the Carling or 11E. Those buildings (esp. Carling) had severe damage, as well. The city is putting 2.5mm into the Historic Trust Fund at this very moment (proceeds from selling the old Library). That could help make the numbers work.
As for 3-4 condos, obviously, you don't get out of town much, because in Charlotte or a whole host of cities there are 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000 sq. ft condos in large numbers. Any architect worth his salt could get at LEAST 6 units from 7145 sq. feet. As for the parking, you might want to ask Mike Langton how he got 12 apartments (Knight Lofts) without any on-site parking approved. It can be done.
Why not give Bill Cesary, Tony Allegretti, Cameron Kuhn or anyone a chance to see what can be done with the site? Oh I forgot, this is Jacksonville, we can't dream big, we can't do difficult things, we can't do things that other cities do. It's just an oversized blue-collar town, we have to accept that. Well I for one, don't.
As for becoming a developer, that is precisely what I am trying to do and my first project is under construction now. Therefore, I understand the importance of the bottom line. I also know from experience that contractors/developers/property owners will make a lot of statements they can't back up, to get a demo permit. It's calling blow smoke up someone's ass.
As for where we all were 30 years ago, I was in 7th grade, I was mostly worried about Algebra and such things, what's was your point exactly??
So that I may affect some real change. So that I can add to the Urban Fabric rather than blight it with surface parking. The thing all of you are forgetting here is that I agree with you all. I do not agree, however, that simply bitching about the new parking lot that's going in over on Church and Julia is constructive. You want things to change, DO SOMETHING about it. Get together, as Toni did (everyone loves Toni, even me, he's doing amazing work for the Core), pool some money, buy some property and build the next hot development of mixed use residential/condo/grocery/shopping center/boutique. This is how we change our city, by being the ones to throw the dice and BUILD BUILD BUILD.
Oh, and for the random guy who mentioned the Ambassador...again, I know there was a proposal for that block. I helped design it 3 years ago (a KBJ project that died on the boards because the owner couldn't get enough money to renovate the thing, plus the courthouse didn't help you're right).
So, if everyone is done attacking me, perhaps you would like to retaliate by hiring me as your Architect and we'll get to building the most amazing Urban Core this side of the Pond. ;D
We are opposing the decision by the LUZ to ignore the Historic Commissions recommendation. .
Both Lakelander and I are BUILDING, and trying to do more, but we want this city to stop taking one step forward and one step back....
This city simply MUST start supporting it's own POLICIES (master plan) with it's own ACTIONS (stopping this KBJ nonsense and putting first floor retail in it's OWN [Haverty] building).
You obviously either work for or did work for KBJ. Can you DO SOMETHING and initiate a meeting on this topic?
QuoteYou want things to change, DO SOMETHING about it. Get together, as Toni did (everyone loves Toni, even me, he's doing amazing work for the Core), pool some money, buy some property and build the next hot development of mixed use residential/condo/grocery/shopping center/boutique. This is how we change our city, by being the ones to throw the dice and BUILD BUILD BUILD.
Apparently you're not aware of the Metro Jacksonville group (many of the members you've been debating with) are a VERY VERY VERY active group of individuals making changes in Jax. Come on down to Boomtown on a tuesday night and meet the group that's doing a lot more than "bitching".
Alright. I'll be at Boomtown after a meeting with John Allmand. By his suggestion. No guns or sharp objects allowed!
Actually Tonight, some of us will be at Boomtown AFTER the hearing on the bill for Demolition
yeah we should be there around 730 or so.
Sorry we missed you Jeremiah. We all were looking forward to getting to know each other better. I ended up leaving the rest of the guys and city hall at 8:30pm and they hadn't even reached the discussion on the KBJ demolition request. While we definately had someone there to represent our view on the topic at hand, according to Suzanne Jenkins, the only thing up for discussion right now is whether the building should be considered historic or not.
If landmark, then game over for the demoliton request. If not, then the request must then gain the approval of the DRC before the wrecking ball can come over to the site.
The city council passed the bill to demolish the church 13-1....
The Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission was trampled on again....
Now the whole block will be empty expect for their building...
Thanks KBJ?
And a special thanks to the city councilPAST AND PRESENT WHO spend tons of money on Master Plans and Overlays that are worth less than the paper their printed on....
La Villa has already been transformed into a Southside Office Park. Who even bothers to go there?
Now let's see if we can turn the whole city into a handful of buildings, some parking garages and a ton of surface parking lots....
Sorry for the sarcasm......
Well considering the LUZ committee is the council, it was pretty much a given which way that vote was going. Decisions are made up well before public hearings are held. However, this only means the building will not be recorded as a local historical landmark. According to Suzanne Jenkins, before any demolition can take place, it along with the design, must be approved by the DRC. So now's the time to start lobbying, because you can bet your bottom dollar, KBJ already has.
QuoteMembership
Roland Udenze, Chair
Downtown Development Committee Board Member Designee
James F. Bailey, Jr., Bailey Publishing and Communication, Inc., Property Owner Representative
Oliver J. Barakat, CB Richard Ellis, Inc., Property Owner Representative
Chris Flagg, Flagg Design Studio, LLC, Landscape Architect
Jonathon Garza, W.G. Mills, Inc., Contractor/Developer/ Realtor Representative
Eric Lindstrom, Downtown Development Committee Staff Designee
Andy Sikes, Baptist Health, Urban Planner
William A. Stanley, CSX Corporation, Property Owner Representative
Rose Zurawski, AIA, GS&P, Architect
Meeting Times and Staff Contact
The DRC meets at 2:00 P.M., on the last Thursday of each month in the Police & Fire Pension Building, 1 West Adams Street, Suite 200. Contact Jim Klement, Principal Planner at (904) 630-2679 or (904) 630-1212, ext. 1877 or e-mail at jklement@coj.net to confirm meeting dates and times, questions, or placement on the agenda.
Design Review Process
DRC projects are classisfied as follows:
(1) Staff Review Only
(a) landscaping
(b) streetscape elements
(c) minor structural changes
(d) signage
(2) DRC Review
(a) new construction
(b) structural change to exterior facade of existing structure(s)
(c) other projects deemed appropriate by staff for review by the DRC
The process requiring Staff Review is a one-step procedure whereby DRC staff will review and approve, approve with conditions or deny based upon the development guidelines in the Downtown Zoning Overlay or Downtown Signage Overlay within 10 working days of submittal of a complete application. Staff will notify the applicant of an incomplete application within five working days.
The vote last night is unfortunate, but lets not kid ourselves. This thing was held under wraps for nearly a month and the decision had been made by the council long ago, before the story came out publicly yesterday. The idea of a parking lot at that site, goes against the development guidelines in the Zoning Overlay. If this is what the DRC will base their decision on, then this is where the fight now stands.
Who was the one vote against in the 13-1 vote, out of curiosity?
I worshipped at First Christian Church downtown in the 50's and 60's. I was baptized by immersion there. I sat in the pews and looked up to the vaulted ceiling which must be 3 or 4 stories high. The ceiling was painted to resemble sky. As a child I thought it must be like heaven.
Our Sunday School was in the Porter Mansion. I marvelled at the beauty and ornate style of a bygone era. Did you know there was a ballroom on the 3rd floor complete with a little orchestra platform? At one time there were porches sweeping around at least 3 sides of that beautiful building.
Then one evening in the 70's a woman was mugged and her purse stolen as we came out of choir practice. That was the beginning of the end of our determination to stay downtown.
The Cesery development at 3rd and Main will encompass property where I once lived at 33 East Third St. That beautiful house, built in 1892 with 7 bedrooms and 2-story porches on front and back, was torn down in the 60's for a used car lot. My grandfather's bank is the building with the Jaguars painted on it. The parking lot behind the Ambassador hotel used to hold a historic building almost as beautiful as the Porter Mansion. My father and I both worked at the City Hall Annex and I spent many happy hours in the Hayden Burns Library.
While I have not lived in Jacksonville since 1973, I read with interest of the revival of downtown and Springfield. There are a lot of emotions involved in this debate, but there is also the Master Plan to consider. Preservation and rebuilding is always a good thing. When First Christian sold their property to KBJ, we were assured they had plans to remodel the brick building into loft apartments. We know that didn't happen, but a parking lot is not the right solution.
I've said it before, I'll say it again and again. More groups need to form like MetroJax and like Toni's partnership to affect change in this city. It's not going to get done by the politicians. They don't care about the ultimate look of our city. What they care about is small enough to fit in a thimble. I am one of the volunteers for Emerging Architects in Jacksonville, and we, as a group, are trying to elevate the level of architectural style and education in Jacksonville. But we are just a bunch of soon-to-be Architects with lots of vision and too little press. Much like a lot of grass roots and not for profit groups in town. But, with developments like 122 Ocean and 15 West and even Churchwell, the message is getting out there and change is happening. If we want it to happen faster, we need to quite simply get together and BUILD! BUILD BUILD BUILD! Some of you are already doing this, and that is phenomenal! I applaud all of you. Now, how about the rest of us?
I agree, the best movements begin with solid and committed grass roots efforts. Nevertheless, for those who aren't able to build, but value our city's history and urban areas, there's still a huge need to get on board, working to save and preserve a majority of what's left of our urban landscape, as well as encourage quality infill development, in the process.
I hope everyone sees the correlation between the continued progression or potential "re-enforcement" of antiquated downtown parking ordinances and the potential financial gain of additional parking. The easiest way for KBJ to add an income stream for the property is to raze it and add a monthly fee parking spot.
The smile of Jacksonville didn't have to look like an old common bum with a lot of teeth missing. Maybe a plain ol' girl next door who wanted to come into the limelight but afraid to take the first step, but not that guy!