http://jacksonville.com/news/2017-01-04/2-shot-near-n-laura-street-during-first-wednesday-art-walk#
An abstract argument gone wrong?
A simple wine and cheese disagreement?
Doesn't Art Walk officially end at 8 or 9? When I go, i'm usually long gone by 9:30.
The comments on the News4Jax facebook post are pretty terrible.
Sally, this is going to set the art walk back years... I'm already seeing posts all over social media from friends/family saying they're probably not going back. The perception of downtown is still very dangerous to those who aren't there frequently. This just confirms their fears.
Downtown's first PR crisis of 2017?
JSO: 2 minors injured in downtown shooting during Art Walk
Chaotic scene 'like something out of a Godzilla movie,' witness says
http://www.news4jax.com/news/local/jacksonville/jso-investigates-reports-of-shots-fired-at-art-walk
Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 05, 2017, 09:35:06 AM
Doesn't Art Walk officially end at 8 or 9? When I go, i'm usually long gone by 9:30.
The comments on the News4Jax facebook post are pretty terrible.
A wonderful night for racial relations in general last night, between this and the Facebook Live incident.
People should play a fun new game where they stop generalizing entire swaths of the population (minorities, whites/Trump supporters, whatever) by their lowest common denominators.
Such a shame because we've made such great strides as a society this decade in terms of embracing the LGBT community, yet we're coming apart at the seams racially.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 05, 2017, 09:35:06 AM
Doesn't Art Walk officially end at 8 or 9? When I go, i'm usually long gone by 9:30.
The comments on the News4Jax facebook post are pretty terrible.
the majority of the comments left on the news sites sound like a predisposition fear of downtown (and of anything that isn't their gated suburban neighborhood) just looking for a reason to justify their hatred of downtown (even though they don't frequent the area, or haven't even attended a single art walk night, or any other event downtown for that matter). not to mention how racist half the remarks sound as well...
9:30 late for teenagers to be out?!?! really. gangstas being gangstas. what planet do they live on?
What was the Facebook live incident?
Quote from: jaxjaguar on January 05, 2017, 11:15:14 AM
What was the Facebook live incident?
Quote4 held after Facebook video shows torture of disabled man by group railing against Trump, whites
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/01/05/4-in-custody-after-group-beats-disabled-man-on-facebook-live-while-shouting-anti-trump-profanities-chicago-police-say/?utm_term=.e70ca9249d72
The shaky video shows a terrified young man in a gray hooded sweatshirt and dark pants crouching in a corner, his wrists and neck bound with orange bands, his mouth taped shut.
A young woman films as two young men slash the sleeves of his shirt with knives, then take turns punching him, slapping him and stomping on his head. At one point, one of the men can be seen cutting the victim's hair and scalp with a knife, and the victim is later shown bleeding from his injuries.
As the victim cowers with his back to the wall, someone can be heard repeatedly shouting, "F‑‑‑ Donald Trump" and "F‑‑‑ white people."
ArtWalk has definitely moved to being where there are lots of teenagers roaming rather than those that are of age. The problem is the neighborhood and gang rivalries that exist. They all end up at ArtWalk or the Jax Fair and sh*t pops off. I bet this is also a big problem for vendors since most 16 year olds I know aren't buying food and drinks.
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 05, 2017, 11:46:13 AM
ArtWalk has definitely moved to being where there are lots of teenagers roaming rather than those that are of age. The problem is the neighborhood and gang rivalries that exist. They all end up at ArtWalk or the Jax Fair and sh*t pops off. I bet this is also a big problem for vendors since most 16 year olds I know aren't buying food and drinks.
I was there last night and didn't notice any such thing. Were you?
Quote from: jlmann on January 05, 2017, 12:31:49 PM
the difference in crowd isn't entirely all teenagers, but way more than early on. anybody who's been regularly without a dog in this fight knows this to be true. But by all means you and tach trot out some anecdotes from one night to dispel obvious longer-term trends in art walk.
white fantasizing? lol. I didn't say anything about gang violence or race just that the crowd was different. I happen to agree there are more teenasgers and imo there's a bunch more white kids from mandarin included in that too.
I know your auto response is hard to stop though - your fingers just seem to start typing once anyone criticizes the actions of someone non white and/or not cis/straight.
Why don't you go down to the hospital and tell the victims they got shot with fantasy bullets shot with a gun concocted from baseless white fear? that should be helpful
Do you think if there were more kids at Art Walk last night it was because school is still out, and not because dangerous teens are taking over as part of an "obvious longer-term trend"? Or is it absolutely certain that we're facing a Wild in the Streets situation?
Quote from: Tacachale on January 05, 2017, 12:00:59 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 05, 2017, 11:46:13 AM
ArtWalk has definitely moved to being where there are lots of teenagers roaming rather than those that are of age. The problem is the neighborhood and gang rivalries that exist. They all end up at ArtWalk or the Jax Fair and sh*t pops off. I bet this is also a big problem for vendors since most 16 year olds I know aren't buying food and drinks.
I was there last night and didn't notice any such thing. Were you?
I'm surprised you didn't. A friend and I walked down Laura towards our cars shortly before the shooting and my friend remarked about how many unsupervised kids were out with school starting back up today.
Quote from: Spitfire on January 05, 2017, 12:42:45 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on January 05, 2017, 12:00:59 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 05, 2017, 11:46:13 AM
ArtWalk has definitely moved to being where there are lots of teenagers roaming rather than those that are of age. The problem is the neighborhood and gang rivalries that exist. They all end up at ArtWalk or the Jax Fair and sh*t pops off. I bet this is also a big problem for vendors since most 16 year olds I know aren't buying food and drinks.
I was there last night and didn't notice any such thing. Were you?
I'm surprised you didn't. A friend and I walked down Laura towards our cars shortly before the shooting and my friend remarked about how many unsupervised kids were out with school starting back up today.
There were a lot of teenagers there last night. I didn't notice that it was a huge number of teenagers compared to other times when school's out, let alone that they were from "the neighborhood", wherever that is, or that they appeared to be participating in "gang rivalries". The vendors I spoke to considered it was a normal Art Walk night. The complaints I heard from brick and mortar places were about the vagrants, the fall of FOHP, and typical talk about how slow things are Downtown. We headed to Intuition around 8, but from what I saw I wouldn't have predicted a correlation between the crowd and the shootings, any more than any other Art Walk. I doubt anyone else here did either, except in hindsight.
Quote from: Tacachale on January 05, 2017, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: Spitfire on January 05, 2017, 12:42:45 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on January 05, 2017, 12:00:59 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on January 05, 2017, 11:46:13 AM
ArtWalk has definitely moved to being where there are lots of teenagers roaming rather than those that are of age. The problem is the neighborhood and gang rivalries that exist. They all end up at ArtWalk or the Jax Fair and sh*t pops off. I bet this is also a big problem for vendors since most 16 year olds I know aren't buying food and drinks.
I was there last night and didn't notice any such thing. Were you?
I'm surprised you didn't. A friend and I walked down Laura towards our cars shortly before the shooting and my friend remarked about how many unsupervised kids were out with school starting back up today.
There were a lot of teenagers there last night. I didn't notice that it was a huge number of teenagers compared to other times when school's out, let alone that they were from "the neighborhood", wherever that is, or that they appeared to be participating in "gang rivalries". The vendors I spoke to considered it was a normal Art Walk night. The complaints I heard from brick and mortar places were about the vagrants, the fall of FOHP, and typical talk about how slow things are Downtown. We headed to Intuition around 8, but from what I saw I wouldn't have predicted a correlation between the crowd and the shootings, any more than any other Art Walk. I doubt anyone else here did either, except in hindsight.
Maybe it was just on that southern end of Laura because there was a crazy amount of kids still hanging about around 9-9:15 on the way to our cars. Given that this was the night before Duval went back to school and not a random night in the middle of a vacation week, it seemed like there were way more kids out than what I would have expected. I, also, wasn't making assumptions that they were all from a particular neighborhood or were directly involved with gang violence (those are the statements of the poster before me).
I do agree with you, though. It didn't feel like that the rest of the night. Just typical, albeit larger than I expected, Artwalk crowd for the beginning of the year.
Does anybody have any suggestions for dealing with this? Is the sheriff right and we need more police? Would a municipal gun ordinance help? Or do we just need higher levels of employment among youth?
Quote from: stephendare on January 05, 2017, 01:24:45 PM
Most likely just bad blood between an irresponsible gun owner and whoever he was shooting at.
One of the victims may have also been armed (he was wearing a gun holster when police found him).
Is there a city owned closed circuit camera system downtown or are they going to rely on businesses' security cameras? If there isn't one, I'm all for installing a CCTV setup like London downtown. I'd rather live with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.
Quote from: stephendare on January 05, 2017, 01:48:32 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on January 05, 2017, 01:47:24 PM
Is there a city owned closed circuit camera system downtown or are they going to rely on businesses' security cameras? If there isn't one, I'm all for installing a CCTV setup like London downtown. I'd rather live with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.
You should talk to Adam. Im sure he could refer you to some decent leasing agents in London.
Let me rephrase the last sentence of my recent post to clear up any confusion:
I'd rather live [in Jacksonville] with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.
Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown? Do you have a 4th amendment objection or some other reason for opposing it? I'm trying to think of solutions, not argue.
Quote from: stephendare on January 05, 2017, 02:48:55 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on January 05, 2017, 02:43:25 PM
Quote from: stephendare on January 05, 2017, 01:48:32 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on January 05, 2017, 01:47:24 PM
Is there a city owned closed circuit camera system downtown or are they going to rely on businesses' security cameras? If there isn't one, I'm all for installing a CCTV setup like London downtown. I'd rather live with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.
You should talk to Adam. Im sure he could refer you to some decent leasing agents in London.
Let me rephrase the last sentence of my recent post to clear up any confusion:
I'd rather live [in Jacksonville] with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.
Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown? Do you have a 4th amendment objection or some other reason for opposing it? I'm trying to think of solutions, not argue.
Long long years of debate on this issue, remc. I don't like surveillance by the government obviously.
But one shooting isn't a trend.
I have come to this conclusion also... however... I do encourage private property owners to mount cameras to monitor the immediate areas around their businesses...
Quote from: remc86007 on January 05, 2017, 02:43:25 PM
Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown?
To quote Mr. Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
I feel like we've seen this event dozens of times, but this time it involved guns. What immediately came to my mind was the festival at the beach that erupted into a huge brawl where a kid's head got stomped on. As our events get more successful over time, eventually people will show up just to see the other people and they don't actually care about the event. Those people then get in to mischief because they're essentially there for no good reason and then it gets out of hand and causes problems.
As our events scale up, our security needs to also.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 05, 2017, 03:05:16 PM
I feel like we've seen this event dozens of times, but this time it involved guns. What immediately came to my mind was the festival at the beach that erupted into a huge brawl where a kid's head got stomped on. As our events get more successful over time, eventually people will show up just to see the other people and they don't actually care about the event. Those people then get in to mischief because they're essentially there for no good reason and then it gets out of hand and causes problems.
As our events scale up, our security needs to also.
The viral Christmas Night brawl at the River City Marketplace is what I thought of.
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-12-26/story/movie-theater-brawl-latest-mob-frenzy-go-viral-jacksonville
This is exactly what everybody from the beaches and suburbs thought was going on downtown when I moved to The Carling in 2007. But it wasn't at all. Downtown Jacksonville was amazing back then. Jaguars players were living at The Carling; JSO cops were patrolling day and night...in cars and on bicycles; Art Walk had real art...and kids like last night's shooter and his buddies...they weren't even interested in coming anywhere near the place.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 05, 2017, 03:00:23 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on January 05, 2017, 02:43:25 PM
Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown?
To quote Mr. Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Surveillance of a public place is not taking anyone's Liberty. A cop watching a camera in a remote location is no different than the same cop being there in person and observing what he sees.
Quote from: stephendare on January 05, 2017, 02:48:55 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on January 05, 2017, 02:43:25 PM
Quote from: stephendare on January 05, 2017, 01:48:32 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on January 05, 2017, 01:47:24 PM
Is there a city owned closed circuit camera system downtown or are they going to rely on businesses' security cameras? If there isn't one, I'm all for installing a CCTV setup like London downtown. I'd rather live with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.
You should talk to Adam. Im sure he could refer you to some decent leasing agents in London.
Let me rephrase the last sentence of my recent post to clear up any confusion:
I'd rather live [in Jacksonville] with big brother than have the people responsible for shootings be free.
Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown? Do you have a 4th amendment objection or some other reason for opposing it? I'm trying to think of solutions, not argue.
Long long years of debate on this issue, remc. I don't like surveillance by the government obviously.
But one shooting isn't a trend.
Fair enough.
KenFSU: (sorry I can't figure out how to quote two people)
"To quote Mr. Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.""
I fail to see how one's actions on a public street constitute essential liberty, but I understand the sentiment.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 05, 2017, 03:00:23 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on January 05, 2017, 02:43:25 PM
Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown?
To quote Mr. Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
As someone who is always concerned with civil liberties, the surveillance state, etc, there's no issue here. There is NO expectation of privacy in public. Just as we're 100% allowed to film the police in public, they can also film us. Completely legal/acceptable.
Quote from: coredumped on January 05, 2017, 03:35:13 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 05, 2017, 03:00:23 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on January 05, 2017, 02:43:25 PM
Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown?
To quote Mr. Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
As someone who is always concerned with civil liberties, the surveillance state, etc, there's no issue here. There is NO expectation of privacy in public. Just as we're 100% allowed to film the police in public, they can also film us. Completely legal/acceptable.
I definitely get the other side of the argument.
It's just a matter of what kind of society we want to live in.
A few strategically placed surveillance cameras that police can review in the event that something happens like what happened last night at Art Walk? Sure.
A real-time, continuously monitored, London-style CCTV system, which sweeps and databases license plates, harnesses facial recognition software, and has used hidden microphones to listen in on conversations on the street? No way.
It's gotcha policing, just like red light cameras, and fundamentally changes the human experience for the worst.
Quote from: jlmann on January 05, 2017, 01:58:15 PMseems like the views climb when we get to bickering.
Truth is, they actually don't. With that said, there were a lot of teenagers out last night. As other's have mentioned, it's probably related to school being out. Overall, I wouldn't get to worried. Shootings can happen anywhere and the majority of the time, those involved know each other.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2017, 04:20:54 PM
Shootings can happen anywhere and the majority of the time, those involved know each other.
Certainly seems to be the case here.
The victims are refusing to cooperate with the police in the investigation.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2017, 04:20:54 PM
Quote from: jlmann on January 05, 2017, 01:58:15 PMseems like the views climb when we get to bickering.
Truth is, they actually don't. With that said, there were a lot of teenagers out last night. As other's have mentioned, it's probably related to school being out. Overall, I wouldn't get to worried. Shootings can happen anywhere and the majority of the time, those involved know each other.
For sure. I know some of the kids involved. They knew each other.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 05, 2017, 03:53:51 PM
Quote from: coredumped on January 05, 2017, 03:35:13 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on January 05, 2017, 03:00:23 PM
Quote from: remc86007 on January 05, 2017, 02:43:25 PM
Are you (or anyone else in this thread) opposed to putting a CCTV system downtown?
To quote Mr. Ben Franklin, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
As someone who is always concerned with civil liberties, the surveillance state, etc, there's no issue here. There is NO expectation of privacy in public. Just as we're 100% allowed to film the police in public, they can also film us. Completely legal/acceptable.
I definitely get the other side of the argument.
It's just a matter of what kind of society we want to live in.
A few strategically placed surveillance cameras that police can review in the event that something happens like what happened last night at Art Walk? Sure.
A real-time, continuously monitored, London-style CCTV system, which sweeps and databases license plates, harnesses facial recognition software, and has used hidden microphones to listen in on conversations on the street? No way.
It's gotcha policing, just like red light cameras, and fundamentally changes the human experience for the worst.
The vast majority of CCTV cameras in London (and throught Britain) are owned and operated by private individuals and companies. As far as the microphones are concerned, I believe those were tested but I've not seen anything to indicate they were ever deployed.
I don't really know how I feel about CCTV, etc in London. On the one hand, I find the idea of it intrusive and anathema to my libertarian instincts. On the other hand, London has had a long and bad history of terrorism and if these things help, then maybe it's not such a bad idea.
To be fair, I never notice it anymore.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 05, 2017, 03:09:54 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 05, 2017, 03:05:16 PM
I feel like we've seen this event dozens of times, but this time it involved guns. What immediately came to my mind was the festival at the beach that erupted into a huge brawl where a kid's head got stomped on. As our events get more successful over time, eventually people will show up just to see the other people and they don't actually care about the event. Those people then get in to mischief because they're essentially there for no good reason and then it gets out of hand and causes problems.
As our events scale up, our security needs to also.
The viral Christmas Night brawl at the River City Marketplace is what I thought of.
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2013-12-26/story/movie-theater-brawl-latest-mob-frenzy-go-viral-jacksonville
I actually inadvertently attended both the 2013 brawl and this 2017 shooting. The 2013 brawl had definite gang overtones since it's located on the northside and there were large groups of people blocking multiple stores (not shopping) this shooting happened really quickly, by the time I walked back to my car on ocean street, and drove back to Adams to leave on i-10 the intersection on Laura was stopped with police in the intersection. I heard an ambulance and sirens when I was walking back to my car but I thought nothing of it. I didn't even hear gun shots. This artwalk had noticeably larger groups of black youths that attended, some people mentioned that there were more people in general last night. I honestly think these are growing pains of a successful event. It's a public event, it should be fair to expect to see a cross section of Jacksonville's population, good or bad at such an event. This won't deter me from attending the next artwalk. I don't think they could have done more with more police. They had police at every intersection, and patrolling. Only way it could have been prevented by police would have been through precognition (like minority report) police can only enforce laws.
I think it's important to note the shootings time it was 930 pm when everyone was leaving and packing up. Not while police were at their posts on guard. (when did the police leave?) Everyone's busy cleaning, and distracted, also the assailant could run away quickly because the dense crowds have dispersed, and he could easily blend in with others leaving to get away.
Also important to note that a large group of black youths were on Adams Street because of the rap/dance group on the corner of Adams and Laura, and De Real Ting cafe down Adams street.
Also important to note the assailant shot the one guy in the foot, and another guy in the leg (was aiming down, concealed, shooting not to kill and not in self defense), and the one guy actually ran from Adams Street down to the landing with the gunshot wound before running into an off duty police officer.
This was probably a drug deal gone bad. They met in public for safety, dude had his buddy as backup, assailant took the drugs and ran after shooting them both. The easiest way of stopping that is just legalizing the drugs and stopping the drug trade, and if you expect a cross section of jax at events like this then you need to fix the community as a whole and ease tensions, and finish disputes in urban neighborhoods. If your only goal is to address "how do we stop this from happening at artwalk" then you're only mitigating the symptoms and you're not curing what ails Jacksonville.
Also important to note that no would-be second amendment vigilante arose from crowds to swiftly issue justice. (as I have been promised time and time again)
^No worries. I co-founded what has become MetroJacksonville and I review the analytics on both daily.
Well then,why not a (seriously vast) "NEW" 'story' :
I am reminded of a chance relaxed social meeting a year and a half or so ago,cigar shop at the edge of Ortega,audience included retired Judge and a Florida Times Union reporter. Per usual,conversation swerved to local crime and Jacksonville's murder "Capital" status.
A comment was made that Jacksonville's black population is it's biggest liability, the popularity and competition of surrounding counties and the forecast that Jacksonville was destined to become predominantly "Black". I so wish that I had conducted cell phone video of the discourse 8) maybe I Got It 8) ,but Art Walk (and what the heck,Confederate Point store shooting in same FTU news column) are the latest examples of "conversation" that proves so obtuse.
Quote from: jlmann on January 05, 2017, 01:58:15 PM
seems like the views climb when we get to bickering.
and your education is now complete young padawan
Quote from: wyttsndrs on January 05, 2017, 04:51:35 PM
The easiest way of stopping that is just legalizing the drugs and stopping the drug trade, and if you expect a cross section of jax at events like this then you need to fix the community as a whole and ease tensions, and finish disputes in urban neighborhoods. If your only goal is to address "how do we stop this from happening at artwalk" then you're only mitigating the symptoms and you're not curing what ails Jacksonville.
Also important to note that no would-be second amendment vigilante arose from crowds to swiftly issue justice. (as I have been promised time and time again)
I completely agree.
After all,so many "Crowds" (second amendment vigilante etc. to name but one or a hundred) stay far from the area. "Discernment"
No wonder I can not entice friends from adjoining county to even come to Downtown for New Years.
For some,the similarly timed Confederate Point store shooting was even more gut wrenching.
Sorry Ron Littlepage,your recent upbeat piece dashed.Hopefully Ron you have alternative place well away from this place.
On the other hand.....................
For better or worse, I expect that the Great Foot Shooting of 2017 will be washed away by the churn of the news cycle and all but forgotten in a couple of months time. If the DJ who got his eyes gouged out didn't scare people away from Riverside, or the guy who got his throat slashed didn't close down the Landing, I doubt this story will do much long term harm to Art Walk.
Quote from: KenFSU on January 05, 2017, 10:58:20 PM
For better or worse, I expect that the Great Foot Shooting of 2017 will be washed away by the churn of the news cycle and all but forgotten in a couple of months time. If the DJ who got his eyes gouged out didn't scare people away from Riverside, or the guy who got his throat slashed didn't close down the Landing, I doubt this story will do much long term harm to Art Walk.
Good point. Man, those were both awful stories.
JSO reporting today's shooting at Landing has possible link to the Art Walk shooting. Saying those involved in Art Walk shooting were also present today. Not good for next Art Walk if there are no arrests made soon.