For those that are interested in Transit Oriented Development happening locally, the American Planning Association and COJ will be hosting a workshop.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/FCAPA_CoJ_Workshop_Aug081_Page_1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/FCAPA_CoJ_Workshop_Aug081_Page_2.jpg)
I'm impressed. Looks like the $10 fee will be worth it.
I saw some old car lots that were being demolished in that area. I guess they have started.
There are historical local success stories, but the streetcar lines that created Jacksonville's original TODs were pulled up or paved over in the 1930s.
Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2008, 11:40:37 AM
Bay Street Station?
Kings Avenue Station?
Jackson Square in San Marco?
Carlton Jones is the speaker??
Arent there any local TOD success stories?
The purpose of the workshop is to talk about what's going on nationally....primarily new developments...as such, the City asked that some local developers be included.
they do have a speaking slot...as does JTA and FDOT...but the featured speaker is a national expert from D.C.
QuoteMaybe a discussion of those would be in order.
I suppose that, as usual, you have some of those in mind?
I bet ock is probably cholic with examples, just waiting to sneeze them out.
LMAO
I took a trip on the Ortega car line as well as what is left of Murray Hill and Edison-Lackawanna before I get the new digital camera. But needless to say, they are all lined with cool neighboorhood friendly developments from back in the day. Even more interesting, with a couple of exceptions nothing but decay has taken place since the streetcars went down. This would make an interesting article in light of this up coming meeting. OCKLAWAHA
Sounds cool, got the camera, you game for going along, someone taking notes (we can pull dates later) and one catching photos? I know the car lines.
Ocklawaha
QuoteCertainly thats got to be more relevant than the most visible example of failure and boondogglery in the sad history of transit, the Kings Avenue station.
Although to be fair to Carlton, it does seem as though the JTA went out of their way to sabotage any hope of success by simply not supervising the Skyway, allowing it to be locked at 6 pm and on the weekends, thereby turning the parking garage into an elaborate trap.
Well said, but the single most stunning thing about that project is stopping the Skyway short of the Garage, and putting the garage in a roadway no-mans land, without access or exit from 95, Beach/Atlantic. If and when they re-re-re-do the interchanges, lets hope they build NB/SB ramps to and from 95. A remake of Kings Avenue with easy access would do wonders for the whole area and jump start mass transit. I'd bet money that park and ride would soar![/color][/b]
Ocklawaha
QuoteI wonder if you could put together a retro TOD list Ock?
Ortega Village
Fairfax
Fishweir
park on Herschel
Avondale (note the divided road west of the "village" ends at Herschel, the car line and the GATE.)
King Street
Oak
5-Points
(new buildings across line where it went from Oak to May)
May st. all along
May and Forest (blue building with odd angle in it (duh, trolley line)
Then through the dead meadows of Brooklyn *car barn where the skyway facility is today
Edgewood at the Railroad? Ditto,
Railroad to College
College
jog to Dellwood
to Forest
to Myrtle (subway)
to Bay
to Riverside
Raiload shops to McDuff
Mc Duff to Edison
Edison to Forest
Forest to May
May to car barn
Hundreds of period building clusters along these routes, sadly many on Forest and Dellwood are under the freeway today. Brooklyn is gone, and May cut up.
BTW: JEA told me the high power 13,000 KV transmission lines were/are in pipe along the streetcar routes, except where they went overhead out of town. Streetcars typically run on 600 volt DC. but can be AC powered. AC traction is much newer and requires more volts, DC ramps up the amps for Air Conditioning systems... but all in all, I'm of the opinion if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Do the DC, any kid that EVER had a battery powered toy could work on it!Ocklawaha
Quote from: stephendare on July 28, 2008, 01:05:34 PM
Although to be fair to Carlton, it does seem as though the JTA went out of their way to sabotage any hope of success by simply not supervising the Skyway, allowing it to be locked at 6 pm and on the weekends, thereby turning the parking garage into an elaborate trap.
To be fair to Carlton, Kings Avenue Station is not a real TOD. No matter what wolf tickets, some local are calling it, its really a TAD (Transit Adjacent Development), which is a huge difference in the urban planning world. Its a project that would have been feasible for the location, regardless of whether the skyway is a block away or not. Real TODs have mass transit as a central focal point, not a side act. The Bay Street Station and Jackson Square projects better fit the definition of Transit Oriented Development.
Quote from: stephendare on July 28, 2008, 03:41:08 PM
Ock, I would love to go along with you and catalog.
Anyone good with photos?
Oretga Village
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3587-p1050624.JPG)
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/713/117/
Fairfax (the street is this wide, because streetcar tracks once ran in this area)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3824-p1080772.JPG)
Park & King
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5018-p1100400.JPG)
Five Points
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2970-p1050890.JPG)
Edgewood Avenue
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5611-p1110828.JPG)
Main Street
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4290-p1090058.JPG)
Hendricks Avenue
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2269-p1030329.JPG)
The list goes on. Just about any commercial district in town, where a decent number of brick buildings line the street, the date back to pre-1930's, were most likely along old streetcar routes.
These areas also happen to rate the highest in www.walkscore.com's recent rankings. If we what Jacksonville to become walkable again. The answer is simple and clear.....build rail.
The pattern of old streetcar tracks in Aberdeen Street, in Avondale. A nice image for those urbanites that don't believe streetcar routes are compatible for residential dominated streets in our historic districts.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3715-p1080645.JPG)
While the focus of this upcoming TOD workshop deals with new construction TODs. We can learn alot about how to best develop today's TOD by taking a serious look into how they were developed around the turn of the century.
Sure thing y'all ASAP. We'll have to beat this $&#& RAIN... But most of the work needs to be shot along Oak and May, Snips of Dellwood, College and Edison. Another area is San Marco. In distant areas of the Northside there are still a few visible. Buffalo and Talleyrand (the ties were tracks were visible in recent sewer repairs).
Anyone still doubt that Main can't do the job for streetcars? That new median is up to 36 feet wide, most being 24'. 8Th is 8-9 feet in width. All fits just replace black with green grass.
OCKLAWAHA
The new Main median is not 36' wide. Its going to be the same narrow thing they currently have in place between 1st and 4th. By my count, it can't be anymore than 10' to 12' wide. Imo, as long as Main remains an FDOT funded highway, you won't see streetcars on it any time soon. Its difficult enough just getting pedestrian curb cuts there. Ripping up what they are spending millions to do now to put down track in existing road lanes would be WWIII.
Yeah, I was talking to the crew chief with measure in hand, he went over the widest points and the narrows with me. With parking gone, at it's widest it reaches 36'. At least the job did, which to them constitutes the "median". The center lanes are a good 12' on Main, 8' - 9' on 8Th depending if you count the concrete you might get to 10'. A railroad tie is 8', cars range from 8-11 feet depending on the type and conditions. I'm not worried about re-re-re-re doing Main, it's done all the time, look at Hendricks, and THAT for a stupid overshight! There are a zillion funding sources under IceTea or Streetscape, Main Street and other urban programs to underwite this, and hey, we're only talking maybe 10 blocks of Main, and 6 of 8Th to Shands.
The important thing in this thread is we won't go out and buy up 1/2 of Springfield, to build laundry mats and c-stores and call them TODS.
OCKLAWAHA
If anyone is interested in attending this workshop, they should RSVP ASAP...we alkready have 65 people attending and the room only holds 90.
Are you sure rail/streetcars ran down Herschel in the Fairfax area? I understood that rail ran down St. Johns Avenue from town, then looped back using Aberdeen, as shown in the photos - rather than extending further.
Do you have photographic evidence or maps of these routes?
Ock has a map somewhere. I believe the streetcars ran all the way down to NAS Jax. Some of the old track is still visible from aerials of the base.
Here's Ock's map of the old streetcar routes
(http://static.flickr.com/1141/1117635078_27274256ea.jpg)
Is it safe to assume this workshop is canceled?
Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2008, 09:03:25 AM
Is it safe to assume this workshop is canceled?
yes....the workshop has been postponed.....looking to reschedule possibly on September 4th (same time, same place).
Once the date has been locked down (should be sometime today), info. will be sent out
Here's the revised information:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/FCAPA_CoJ_Workshop_Sep08-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/FCAPA_CoJ_Workshop_Sep08-2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/FCAPA_CoJ_Workshop_Sep08-3.jpg)
Since they feature the 2 TODs in the flier, chances are they will both be built??
FYI....in order to accomodate more people (over 100 have registered) the TOD workshop scheduled for tomorrow has been moved to City Hall...First Floor...Lynwood Roberts Room
WHY OH WHY didn't I see this before?? It would have been nice to have someone from the Jackson Square neighborhood be there in order to hear more about the city's plans and perhaps be able to ask questions of someone other than Steve Cissel (developer).
Grrrrrrr.
Will someone please help us and post details about what was said? Esp. about Jackson Square?
Quote from: southerngirl on September 04, 2008, 02:11:44 PM
WHY OH WHY didn't I see this before?? It would have been nice to have someone from the Jackson Square neighborhood be there in order to hear more about the city's plans and perhaps be able to ask questions of someone other than Steve Cissel (developer).
Grrrrrrr.
Will someone please help us and post details about what was said? Esp. about Jackson Square?
We need to find a way to make better use of the Calender. When use post a new topic you can do so from the calender or when you post a new topic you can link to calender but not when you reply. No one uses the calender and maybe we never will.
Is this different than the Urban Core Planning District Community Visioning? They are meeting tonihgt at 6-9PM and the topic is Transportation and Connectivity @Brentwood Community Center.
Lets us know how things went!!!
The meeting was a good one for understanding the what a TOD really is. The first speaker represented Reconnecting America (http://www.reconnectingamerica.org/). I felt pretty good inside to see them answer questions about TOD and mass transit that validates the things we've been saying on this site. These include:
1. BRT has not had as much success as rail in attracting quality TODs because of flexibility issues.
2. The best reason to go with BRT over rail revolves around cheaper implementation costs. However, cheap BRT systems struggle to attract TODs.
3. Dedicated Busways can attract TODs to a degree, but its better to go ahead and go with rail because dedicated busways cost just as much to build. Plus their O&M costs are higher.
4. He also mentioned that TODs should be integrated with the surrounding communities (connectivity). Instead of being isolated TODs, they should become a place that better connects the surrounding area to mass transit and a mix of uses.
The outlook of the speaker from DC definately backed sentiment on this site. Hopefully, JTA does a good job of making sure BRT and Commuter rail lines complement each other instead of competing head-to-head with one another.
As for the developers, Carlton Jones spoke briefly about Bay Street Station, Kings Avenue Station and the Laura Street Station. They plan to sell off individual components of the Bay Street Plan to hotel, retail and theater operators. It sounded like it would be a while before this one got off the ground. However, one of the partners in his group has connections to a streetcar supplier and they are pushing to get a line running between the Prime Osborn and Hyatt. Hopefully JTA can take advantage to get a starter line up and running soon.
Steve Cissel represented the Jackson Square group. He mentioned he represented a development group that was doing some work out of Orlando. This is something I'll have to look up to see how their past projects have turned out. He said that they were working with the community to make sure it fit into the surrounding area. Ock mentioned that the railroad would favor closing the River Oaks crossing, but there was no discussion that followed after his comment.
During my presentation (Integrating TODs into existing neighborhoods), I used the Jackson Square plan to illustrate how bringing the buildings up to Philips Highway would create strong pedestrian connectivity along the entire Philips Highway corridor. The graphic (which has been shown on this site) really applied to the conceptual strip shopping center sketched across the street from the development and not the Jackson Square apartment layout.
Not realizing I was talking about building setbacks in the city as a whole, he attempted to explain that what was shown was the best plan possible and that in theory I was right, but in reality it was not possible because of utility easements, etc. However, he did state that the plan was not finalized. He also had some great graphics showing what could be built under the existing zoning and how the Jackson Square project was a reduction in development density that better fit with the surrounding community. If we had time to sit down in private, I'm sure I could change his mind on the front setback issue.
It sounds like a great deal of positive discussion took place. The reconnecting website is really interesting...although a lot of information to process! I can't wait for things to start happening around here. Keep up the good work guys.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2008, 05:36:39 PM
Steve Cissel represented the Jackson Square group. He mentioned he represented a development group that was doing some work out of Orlando. This is something I'll have to look up to see how their past projects have turned out. He said that they were working with the community to make sure it fit into the surrounding area. Ock mentioned that the railroad would favor closing the River Oaks crossing, but there was no discussion that followed after his comment.
If by "working with the community to make sure it fits into the surrounding area" he means "host a meeting with neighbors, after which you don't work in a cooperative way to address any of their traffic and noise concerns," then sure, he's working with the neighborhood.
Don't believe a word out of this guy's mouth or his little buddy Paul Harden's either, about the "working with the neighborhood" bit. He's maneuvering to get every inch of his 18 acres packed with six-story buildings -- without providing the required parking (check the PUD -- they plan to provide 1/2 the parking req'd), setbacks, greenspace and without concern for all of the train noise and traffic, not to mention light, that will bounce right back into the small neighborhoods nearby.
He's a smooth talker -- I'll be interested to hear what you find out about his other development's success near Orlando.
And, many many thanks for the report on the meeting. The neighbors around the area around Jackson Square aren't trying to kill progress, we're just asking that everyone involved in decision making stop for a moment and consider the impact this massive development is going to have on the homes and families that already live in and have established that area as one of Jacksonville's truly great neighborhoods.
Good summaryu Lake...I did not have the time today
As for Jackson Square, Steve Cissel showed a visual of what the current zoning would allow on the site....and then what they were asking for in the PUD....the second one was much less intense.
I think the partners in the Orlando projects are Cypress Realty...maybe that's what CVRI is.
I'm going to have to see if I can get that visual from Steve. Its pretty powerful.
From my point of view, Lakelander is dead on in his comments on building and TOD. Of course I was there to pick up anything on Mass Transit that was available. I wasn't disappointed.
The comment on Train Noise and River Oaks closing was from my "railroaders point-of-view", while it didn't bring up discussion, it brought some number of nodding heads and notes. I explained that State-Federal $$ are an incentive to close crossings. I know a town in Oklahoma that closed 3 and built a new city park with the bucks. "If a commuter rail station is built there, train noise can be held down by rule of law, but that passes on some liability, the real solution is to be sure that the equipment on the commuter rail line uses the new LRT type "SOFT WHOO TYPE" horns in the dense urban areas, with a firetruck horn as an emergency backup."
During the JTA presentation, Scott mentioned the waste of Transportation dollars on projects that could have much more and longer lasting impact if we'd put them into Mass Transit. He went on to say $5 Million for an undeeded street or lane project, how much transit would THAT buy? We could build a simple overpass for $150 Million, but imagine what that would do for Jacksonville Mass Transit.
I questioned him and the pannel with a proposal:
"Imagine we didn't build just one overpass, and we got the $150 Million for mass transit, in your professional opinions could we or could we not build our starter streetcar line all the way from 5 Points to the Stadium with that money..."
EVERY ONE agreed and went on to add, comments such as, "and more..." "and O&M for XYZ years" etc...
SO, Let the record show that JACKSONVILLE and JTA are well aware that streetcar is a less expensive alternative then highways for whatever purpose.
The Washington DC planner made it clear that the LRT/STREETCAR idea is superor, as Lake pointed out, as the amount of improvements to BRT increase to where the capacitys approach Light Rail, you could pay for Light Rail, so why not build rail in the first place? Further he said, in 5-10 years you will be out there rebuilding that road and the railroads last forever!
Now don't go into a heart failure here, but "Ocklawaha" doesn't completey buy that last line. Railroad's last forever... In fact the government says 100 years for track. What they don't say is that what started as 80 mile per hour track isn't good for 5 miles per hour in 20 years if it isn't kept maintained. Still electric rail systems are much cheaper to maintain then bus systems and cheaper to operate. But for the reasons of maintaining the trackage, we shouldn't slap a cheap asphalt cover over it as Tampa did. Portland used a little more logic and used a paving cobblestone block. The block serves two purposes. 1. it allows for easy removal to get at any point on the track. 2. While it is in the street, and CAN be used as a traffic lane, nobody will drive in it except for getting around a stalled bus or double parked UPS truck because it jars your teeth out.
Jackson Square looked awesome in it's cut down form, it seems to have gone from 6-8 floors to about 3-4.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 05, 2008, 09:25:17 PM
From my point of view, Lakelander is dead on in his comments on building and TOD. Of course I was there to pick up anything on Mass Transit that was available. I wasn't disappointed.
The comment on Train Noise and River Oaks closing was from my "railroaders point-of-view", while it didn't bring up discussion, it brought some number of nodding heads and notes. I explained that State-Federal $$ are an incentive to close crossings. I know a town in Oklahoma that closed 3 and built a new city park with the bucks. "If a commuter rail station is built there, train noise can be held down by rule of law, but that passes on some liability, the real solution is to be sure that the equipment on the commuter rail line uses the new LRT type "SOFT WHOO TYPE" horns in the dense urban areas, with a firetruck horn as an emergency backup."
During the JTA presentation, Scott mentioned the waste of Transportation dollars on projects that could have much more and longer lasting impact if we'd put them into Mass Transit. He went on to say $5 Million for an undeeded street or lane project, how much transit would THAT buy? We could build a simple overpass for $150 Million, but imagine what that would do for Jacksonville Mass Transit.
I questioned him and the pannel with a proposal:
"Imagine we didn't build just one overpass, and we got the $150 Million for mass transit, in your professional opinions could we or could we not build our starter streetcar line all the way from 5 Points to the Stadium with that money..."
EVERY ONE agreed and went on to add, comments such as, "and more..." "and O&M for XYZ years" etc...
SO, Let the record show that JACKSONVILLE and JTA are well aware that streetcar is a less expensive alternative then highways for whatever purpose.
The Washington DC planner made it clear that the LRT/STREETCAR idea is superor, as Lake pointed out, as the amount of improvements to BRT increase to where the capacitys approach Light Rail, you could pay for Light Rail, so why not build rail in the first place? Further he said, in 5-10 years you will be out there rebuilding that road and the railroads last forever!
Now don't go into a heart failure here, but "Ocklawaha" doesn't completey buy that last line. Railroad's last forever... In fact the government says 100 years for track. What they don't say is that what started as 80 mile per hour track isn't good for 5 miles per hour in 20 years if it isn't kept maintained. Still electric rail systems are much cheaper to maintain then bus systems and cheaper to operate. But for the reasons of maintaining the trackage, we shouldn't slap a cheap asphalt cover over it as Tampa did. Portland used a little more logic and used a paving cobblestone block. The block serves two purposes. 1. it allows for easy removal to get at any point on the track. 2. While it is in the street, and CAN be used as a traffic lane, nobody will drive in it except for getting around a stalled bus or double parked UPS truck because it jars your teeth out.
Jackson Square looked awesome in it's cut down form, it seems to have gone from 6-8 floors to about 3-4.
OCKLAWAHA
But aren't we spending 100 million a mile to expand the skyway express?
Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2008, 08:50:20 PM
I'm going to have to see if I can get that visual from Steve. Its pretty powerful.
I have them....but am having trouble adding the pics into this post....I admit to not being all that computer savvy...how about a step-by-step for dummies
Assuming they are jpegs...
1. Upload the images from your hard drive to an online photo host. You can do this for free at www.photobucket.com (http://www.photobucket.com).
2. To add the images to your post, copy and paste the image's URL address into your post.
3. Then add [ img ]http://in front and[ /img ] behind the cut and pasted URL address. Make sure there are no blank spaces between any of the characters...(for example [ img ] should be [img )
4. Click "post" and the image should show up.
QuoteBut aren't we spending 100 million a mile to expand the skyway express?
Thanks for the comment/fear there Civil. (I'm not making light of the word FEAR, as the city has every right to be afraid of that project due to pa, st blunders).
The REAL story on the Skyway is that expansion shouldn't cost more then $15-30 Million a mile MAX. I have recent (last week) talks with builders that say 15 is more realistic. Except for the Hotel block, we can scrap the side walls and elevated tub that it runs in. We go with simple twin beams like Disney, with a center steel grid catwalk for emergencys and repair.
Most of the original expense was on the very fine state-of-the-art computer control system, "war room" or NASA style control system. Signaling, owning the rights to the center cars which were property of Bombarider, and lots of support systems built in just-in-case the thing ever became regional. None of this part should ever have to be built again, it's already in place and will last 50-100 years.
So for any expansion, we are talking simple twin concrete beams, and station costs only. The station costs could be split between projects or absorbed by Commuter Rail.
Hope this helps. OCKLAWAHA
Another major cost was the segment crossing the river and the fact that the original peoplemover system was rebuilt. It also would not hurt to drop it down to grade in areas where this can be done (like in San Marco to Atlantic Blvd, after it crosses the tracks. Small extensions in certain areas would be significantly cheaper than the $84 million/mile number we typically run with.
And if we can work out some partnerships and be creative with the skyway stations, that would also help cut costs. Can any of them be worked into an existing building or new construction? We want to be creative and make every effort to make the system unique and usable for many people.
Sure. Both the Detroit Peoplemover and Miami Metromover go through buildings. Btw, the developers of the Bay Street Station project plan to directly connect their building to the Jefferson Street Station.
Detroit Peoplemover going into a Courtyard by Marriott hotel.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3519-p1060557.JPG)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 05, 2008, 09:25:17 PM
Jackson Square looked awesome in it's cut down form, it seems to have gone from 6-8 floors to about 3-4.
OCKLAWAHA
Hey Ock -- really? There are now detailed drawings that commit Jackson Square to 3-4 stories?
The drawings were massing models. Under the existing zoning they can build buildings as high as 60 feet. However, the massing models of Jackson Square had the buildings in the 4 story range.
Don't know how detailed the finished drawings are, but we did see a work up of an "original" conception then a much lower, reduced size village. These were renderings and not plans, but he did say that lenders were not hearing ANYTHING with the words residential in them, thus the size cut? Anyway, the impression I came away with is, if we were still in the housing boom, y'all would have 10 story neighbors, but current economics makes that impossible.
Lake was I reading into this more? OR, is this pretty much correct as you heard it from an Urban Designer standpoint?
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteAnd if we can work out some partnerships and be creative with the skyway stations, that would also help cut costs. Can any of them be worked into an existing building or new construction? We want to be creative and make every effort to make the system unique and usable for many people.
YOU are dead on target my friend! You and Carlton Jones, of Bay Street Station. His project INCLUDES the Skyway, not as a front yard feature, but as a CONNECTED PART of the buildings. I just home Kings Avenue Station, and perhaps Hyatt, is watching him, because this is golden.
FYI FOLKS, my opinion is that we should try and go OVER I-95 in the Southbank, with the Skyway. Yes it would cost a small amount more, but I'm telling you, when JOE EXECUTIVE and the family (who are sick of Jersey City) come flying through on the super-slab headed to Disney... PRICELESS! OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 06, 2008, 10:12:38 AM
Don't know how detailed the finished drawings are, but we did see a work up of an "original" conception then a much lower, reduced size village.
It appears that there aren't any detailed construction documents at this point. I can't imagine that they would spend money on detailed construction documents without having an approved PUD zoning first. It was a conceptual massing model to show what they could build under the existing zoning CCG-2. The second plan was what they were proposing to build.
QuoteThese were renderings and not plans, but he did say that lenders were not hearing ANYTHING with the words residential in them, thus the size cut?
Carlton Jones (Bay Street Station) mentioned that the lenders did not favor condos in their building. The Jackson Square project will be apartments/office space mixed with street level retail.
thanks for the help Lake...it was still a challenge to export them from the presentation (it was pps not ppt)...but here are the pics...
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp191/tufsu1/current.jpg)
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp191/tufsu1/proposed.jpg)
Thanks for the upload of those new Jackson Sq. renderings. The neighbors haven't seen anything that specific.
So, did Cissel seem to say they're now moving toward the 3-4 story one (the larger of the two you showed) or the taller version? The 3-4 story looks so much less imposing.
They are moving forward with the 4 story plan.
Quote from: tufsu1 on September 06, 2008, 11:10:18 AM
thanks for the help Lake...it was still a challenge to export them from the presentation (it was pps not ppt)...but here are the pics...
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp191/tufsu1/current.jpg)
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp191/tufsu1/proposed.jpg)
I apologize for the different sizes...this was not on purpose to sway people one way or the other...I just made a mistake in downsizing the one pic
First, I want to give a quick thanks to southerngirl for telling me to come over and check out this thread.
I agree that the 3 to 4 floors plan looks much nicer. It also appear that the residential building has a large center courtyard area for the residents. I think that should be good for those who live there and nearby neighbors.
Apartments can be ok if the ownership does some decent screening.
A few of the right retail stores could help some in the San Marco cut down driving when going to shop.