Skyway Modernization and Expansion Presentation to JTA
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Skyway-Expansion-Board/i-gfc2BD6/0/L/jta_skyway-board-update-120816_final-40-L.jpg)
We publish the entire power point presentation made to the JTA Board for the modernization and expansion of the Skyway system, incorporating Autonomous Vehicles.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2016-dec-skyway-modernization-and-expansion-presentation-to-jta-
THANKS YOU STEPHEN.
After reading through every slide, I'm still not entirely sure what to think.
These types of vehicles, as they currently exist, seem better suited to solve the first-mile, last mile-challenge than to replace traditional fixed transportation. But, if nothing else, the plan is ambitious and forward-thinking. A lot of people actually believe that economies of scale on driverless vehicles will eventually become such that it will be cheaper and more convenient to get an on-demand ride via AV than it will be to use traditional fixed public transportation. In medium-sized, lower-density cities in particular. If that turns out to be true, I guess it's better to join 'em if you can't beat em.
Great presentation, thanks. A lot more renderings and information covered here, they still seemed to be unsure but if your using Miami's metro mover as an example then you fixed the beam to a system that will allow more cars. The rendering with the vehicles running down Baystreet with dedicated lanes will still be affected by traffic. I hope public input squashes this idea.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Skyway-Expansion-Board/i-RBNQ4zw/0/L/jta_skyway-board-update-120816_final-47-L.jpg)
What you see above is what you see below, without the tracks and more separation from regular traffic lanes. You should be able to handle the at-grade crossings the same.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Next-City-Houston-2016/i-P6B6V6d/0/L/20160513_160937-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Next-City-Houston-2016/i-cGwSkHM/0/L/20160513_101756-L.jpg%5Bimg%5D%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bimg%5Dhttps://photos.smugmug.com/Next-City-Houston-2016/i-CmbxBwP/0/L/20160512_112637-L.jpg)
Ultimately, your vehicle design, capacity and visual quality of the dedicated ROW design will basically make or break public acceptance.
I skimmed the article - so I might've missed this. But what is the commuter rail connection shown on the southside? Is there currently a train station there?
^That's the old Jackson Square project site: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-aug-jackson-square-controversy-brewing
Quote from: thelakelander on December 09, 2016, 05:33:03 AM
^That's the old Jackson Square project site: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-aug-jackson-square-controversy-brewing
Thanks, Lake. So it's possible that a commuter rail station might be built there? That's incredible!
Quote from: stephendare on December 09, 2016, 09:43:45 AM
Quote from: Adam White on December 09, 2016, 05:48:25 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on December 09, 2016, 05:33:03 AM
^That's the old Jackson Square project site: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-aug-jackson-square-controversy-brewing
Thanks, Lake. So it's possible that a commuter rail station might be built there? That's incredible!
Yes. And if you look at the stakeholders list on panel 9 of the presentation (its on the first page of the article) Its not hard to understand why.
This particular presentation was created with the buy-in of the real estate developers.
Khan, Rummel, a few others.
What services would use this station? Is this maybe an AAF thing? Are there other stations planned for Jax?
I really like the idea of the new river crossing having a pedestrian element as well. I'm glad that was included.
It'll be interesting to see what the final vehicles selected are like. The vehicles shown remind me a bit of what's in Masdar City or at Heathrow's Terminal 5 parking, which are more focused on personal transit rather than mass transit. I saw a tweet yesterday that they could "scale up" for large events, I wonder how far that goes.
Quote from: hiddentrack on December 09, 2016, 10:13:31 AM
I really like the idea of the new river crossing having a pedestrian element as well. I'm glad that was included.
It'll be interesting to see what the final vehicles selected are like. The vehicles shown remind me a bit of what's in Masdar City or at Heathrow's Terminal 5 parking, which are more focused on personal transit rather than mass transit. I saw a tweet yesterday that they could "scale up" for large events, I wonder how far that goes.
Based on the perspective/liberal scale from the render, I can't quite visualize where that river crossing would be. Slightly east of the condo towers on the Southbank north to the west edge of the Shipyards? Functionally, it makes sense, and completes the loop. Visually, I think it's awful. One of the biggest points of value for riverfront development at the District, Shipyards, and Metro Park are the sweeping views of the St. Johns River, the Main Street Bridge, and the Jacksonville skyline. Vice versa with the sight lines looking the other way from riverwalks, Main Street Bridge, etc. I know it's pie-in-the-sky at ths point, but unless the clearance is very low, I'm not sure I'm crazy about obstructing that incredible view with
another bridge:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Skyway-Expansion-Board/i-hX5qwZF/0/L/jta_skyway-board-update-120816_final-49-L.jpg)
The addition of a river crossing also makes our ferry largely redundant, further discouraging interaction with our most valuable resource, the St. Johns.
This all sound great but I am skeptical that the funding is going to come around for this. If I am correct we didn't make the cut for the previous TIGER grant and they're talking about state grants as well, and I really cant see big money coming from the state on any type of future transit options.
Of course I hope I'm wrong on this.
Quote from: KenFSU on December 09, 2016, 11:27:29 AM
Quote from: hiddentrack on December 09, 2016, 10:13:31 AM
I really like the idea of the new river crossing having a pedestrian element as well. I'm glad that was included.
It'll be interesting to see what the final vehicles selected are like. The vehicles shown remind me a bit of what's in Masdar City or at Heathrow's Terminal 5 parking, which are more focused on personal transit rather than mass transit. I saw a tweet yesterday that they could "scale up" for large events, I wonder how far that goes.
Based on the perspective/liberal scale from the render, I can't quite visualize where that river crossing would be. Slightly east of the condo towers on the Southbank north to the west edge of the Shipyards? Functionally, it makes sense, and completes the loop. Visually, I think it's awful. One of the biggest points of value for riverfront development at the District, Shipyards, and Metro Park are the sweeping views of the St. Johns River, the Main Street Bridge, and the Jacksonville skyline. Vice versa with the sight lines looking the other way from riverwalks, Main Street Bridge, etc. I know it's pie-in-the-sky at ths point, but unless the clearance is very low, I'm not sure I'm crazy about obstructing that incredible view with another bridge:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Transit/Skyway-Expansion-Board/i-hX5qwZF/0/L/jta_skyway-board-update-120816_final-49-L.jpg)
The addition of a river crossing also makes our ferry largely redundant, further discouraging interaction with our most valuable resource, the St. Johns.
Looks like it is landing dead center of The District, I would seriously doubt this routing would even be vetted. It would make more sense (to me) to utilize the Acosta. Adding a pedestrian element there would create a Riverwalk loop.
Quote from: camarocane on December 09, 2016, 02:46:41 PM
Looks like it is landing dead center of The District, I would seriously doubt this routing would even be vetted. It would make more sense (to me) to utilize the Acosta. Adding a pedestrian element there would create a Riverwalk loop.
There is pedestrian over the Acosta. Without the additional crossing, it's still a horseshoe and not a loop.
How deep is the river and what are the typical drafts for ships through this area?
While we're still in conceptual phase, tunnel anyone?
Quote from: jaxlore on December 09, 2016, 12:51:58 PM
This all sound great but I am skeptical that the funding is going to come around for this. If I am correct we didn't make the cut for the previous TIGER grant and they're talking about state grants as well, and I really cant see big money coming from the state on any type of future transit options.
Of course I hope I'm wrong on this.
There are several things that suggest that this would receive funding. First a couple of years ago FDOT funded $500 million for two airport people movers. Why not our Downtown system. Also, this a full expansion and we would be requesting a FTA grant as opposed to a TIGER Grant. We received FTA funds for the BRT system so we should for this as well.
Finally, this places Mayor Curry's plans to demolish the viaduct from the Hart Bridge to Downtown. People can park and ri=de from the sports complex for free or at low cost and therefore do not need to drive Downtown.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on December 10, 2016, 11:13:13 AM
While we're still in conceptual phase, tunnel anyone?
While we're still in conceptual phase, I'll take you one step further.
A pedestrian bridge like the one depicted would likely cost around $125 million to construct (for context, the Acosta was $150 million in 2015 dollars).
A tunnel would would incur similar costs, and rob riders/tourists of the view when crossing the river.
If the Metro Park/Shipyards area takes off on the north bank, and the District takes off on the south bank, why not go multi-modal and complete the loop via air gondola?
You preserve the river views, offer a fun, scenic connection between the District and sports complex/Shipyards unique to Jacksonville, and eliminate the need to spend all that money building over or under the river.
The Emirates Air Line, a mono-cable detachable gondola in London, is a longer, more complex system than we would need, and it cost roughly $72 million U.S. dollars to construct.
(http://lucasuk-com.lucas-lucasuk-com.vps.ezhostingserver.com/images/projectphotos/Cable-car2.jpg)
(http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/03/12/12/3121265_b2d153e0.jpg)
You could also charge higher fares for the river crossing (the option would still be there to go the long way on the Skyway via the Acosta), add another cool element to a potential Shipyards park/USS Adams/Khan Met Park development area, and create synergy with the restaurants, retail, and entertainment potentially planned at the District.
Plus, like with the Emirates Air Line, it would be unique enough to where you may be able to find a naming rights sponsor to further offset operating costs.
In my opinion, a great combination of utility, exclusivity, appeal, cost-savings, and leveraging of our natural resources.
☝I am a fan! Before anyone begins the naysaying, I will quickly inject that you have been offering some creative and thoughtful ideas Ken!
^^ Didn't Michael Balanky float the idea of an aerial River crossing a few years back after he developed the hotels at the Kings Ave parking garage??
Nice Idea Ken now get it done :0)
Somebody get this idea to COJ/JTA
Quote from: KenFSU on December 10, 2016, 02:39:35 PM
In my opinion, a great combination of utility, exclusivity, appeal, cost-savings, and leveraging of our natural resources.
Agreed. Fantastic suggestion, Ken.
Quote from: edjax on December 10, 2016, 04:34:18 PM
^^ Didn't Michael Balanky float the idea of an aerial River crossing a few years back after he developed the hotels at the Kings Ave parking garage??
Yes. It's crazy that 10 years have passed already:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=330556
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/03/19/story2.html?b=1174276800%5e1431855
In addition, they were looked at as a part of the Skyway technology study and eventually eliminated from further consideration:
http://assets.jtafla.com/Documents/General/Skyway/3_draft_technology_overview_report_111014/1006/3_draft_technology_overview_report_111014.pdf
Actually its not crazy 10 to 20 years is right on schedule for Jax
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on December 11, 2016, 01:21:22 PM
Actually its not crazy 10 to 20 years is right on schedule for Jax
Another quote where we need a "LIKE" button! ;D
Thanks guys. Seems it's my new gimmick. Suggesting ideas that JTA has already dismissed :D
Thanks for the link, Ennis!
Ken, it could be previously dismissed ideas will get another review. Many things will change on January 20, 2017.
What takes place in Jan that's going to change JTA's position on autonomous vehicles?
Nothing, they have a meeting with public input right? If so some one needs to pass this onto them, another pedestrian bridge is a waste of money IMO.
I'll believe this when I see the automated mini buses rolling down the street. This is just rehashing the same plans that were there for decades. They are overcomplicatinjust builtg this whole process! 30 years later, Jacksonville will still be behind everyone else. There has been some change, but it is slow and painful! Just get some more buses and shelters, and that would do wonders! Then, they could get some more money to build some real transit.
There is a place for the smart buses, but The JTA just went from one extreme to the next! Houston, Atlanta, Kansas City, D. C. ... They all built streetcars! Norfolk, VA has their light rail. Orlando has the SunRail The JTA refuses to build anything rail. Since they want to keep the Skyway for now, have a Disney Style monorail.
It's quiet, and it'll have rubber tires! Make the thing go at least 50 mph to be competitive t
with auto! That would make an impression!
Quote from: thelakelander on December 12, 2016, 07:49:06 PM
What takes place in Jan that's going to change JTA's position on autonomous vehicles?
We shall see, Ennis. It could be you'll figure it out the same time they do. Or maybe not. Until then, optimism costs nothing and prudential optimism is what this moment in time calls for.
Whatever floats your boat :-)
The latest JRTC/JAXIS design:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Transportation/JAXIS/i-ngVRVNz/0/X2/20170119_DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_77-X2.jpg)
Was at the meeting last night. Seems the rooftop garden has completely disappeared and I heard from one of the architect reps that the building's façade may change as well. But, we'll see. Still a beautiful design to say the least. Also, as far as the two JTA surface parking lots are concerned, I really think the good people of Jacksonville florida should embrace the idea of parking garages. Particularly integrated parking garages. They will go a long way in helping mediate traffic, help with the look and feel of the area, and change the mindset that our cars have to be within 50ft of us at all times. Pedestrian traffic is something that's desperately needed if businesses are going to ever consider moving there. If JTA is using phrases like "revitalizing the LaVilla area" they should act like it.
Public forum to discuss JTA's Skyway Modernization plan tomorrow night at 5:00 and 6:00 PM at the Main Library:
http://jacksonville.com/news/2017-01-16/jta-skyway-express-update-meeting-set-tuesday
Please tell them to do away with the golf carts
Need a railway that follows JTB from Phillips highway all the way to the beaches then one day connect that to downtown
Quote from: JaGoaT on January 24, 2017, 12:29:52 AM
Need a railway that follows JTB from Phillips highway all the way to the beaches then one day connect that to downtown
Town center to beaches would be a good start.
How about airport - downtown transport center - beaches ?
The beach is roughly 20 miles from downtown. The airport is roughly 15. Most of the recent starter rail lines built in this country over the last decade (ex. Houston, Charlotte, Norfolk, etc.) have been under 10 miles in length. A starter anything in Jax is essentially what JTA is proposing, in terms of extending the Skyway to connect with urban core neighborhoods like Riverside, San Marco and Springfield.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 24, 2017, 09:39:03 AM
The beach is roughly 20 miles from downtown. The airport is roughly 15. Most of the recent starter rail lines built in this country over the last decade (ex. Houston, Charlotte, Norfolk, etc.) have been under 10 miles in length. A starter anything in Jax is essentially what JTA is proposing, in terms of extending the Skyway to connect with urban core neighborhoods like Riverside, San Marco and Springfield.
One can still dream ;)
Well be able to take a train to Fernandina Beach before we can take a train to Jax Beach.