Gas prices are out of control and mass transit ridership is going up in almost every city, except Jax. Just goes to show, the "If you build it, they will come" idealogy does not always work. Especially, if what you build does not go where people want to go.
QuoteStill plenty of seats available on the Skyway
By LARRY HANNAN, The Times-Union
Even though high gas prices are leading many people to take a closer look at public transportation, the most ambitious public transportation system constructed in Jacksonville in the past generation is losing ridership.
Ridership numbers for the Skyway from October 2006 to June showed the number of riders has dropped by more than 20 percent during that time.
In fiscal 2006-07, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority spent $4.6 million on the Skyway and generated $336,000 in passenger revenue. In fiscal 2007-08, expenses were $4.5 million and revenue was $407,000.
The Skyway, an elevated rail system downtown, has long been the subject of criticism that it doesn't go anywhere.
JTA officials said there are reasons for the drop in ridership, however.
Among them, SunTrust bank moved out of its offices in the downtown area and JTA had a contract with SunTrust that allowed employees to park in off-site lots and take the Skyway to work.
When SunTrust moved, those employees stopped using the Skyway, JTA spokesman Mike Miller said.
There are also two new parking garages downtown that cost $3 to $4 a day, and the Skyway increased fares from 35 cents to 50 cents in October, Miller said.
Ridership peaked at just under 70,000 in January 2007 and was down to about 45,000 by the time the rate went up in October.
Since January, ridership has remained fairly stable at just over 40,000 a month.
JTA officials believe the Skyway can still be an essential part of solving long-term transportation problems.
They are working on instituting a bus rapid transit plan that will put more buses on the road.
There are also studies looking at the feasibility of both commuter rail and ferry service. JTA believes the different forms of transportation will work well together.
It would be a mistake to view the Skyway as a failure because of a drop in ridership, said Marci Larson, spokeswoman for the First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization, the agency that does long-range transportation planning in the Jacksonville area.
The Skyway has gotten a bad rap because the expectations for it have never been realistic, Larson said.
The 2.5-mile system was built for $184 million and completed in 2000. There has been discussion of extending the Skyway to Jacksonville Municipal Stadium, Riverside and Springfield, but nothing has come of it.
Riverside resident Bruce Bullock said he rides the Skyway every weekday.
Mostly the service is good, but on some days it goes out of service, he said.
Jacksonville resident Jeri Covington said she likes riding the Skyway but thinks it is useless because it doesn't go to enough places.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/072208/met_307352807.shtml
Quote from: thelakelander on July 22, 2008, 01:50:59 AM
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The 2.5-mile system was built for $184 million and completed in 2000. There has been discussion of extending the Skyway to Jacksonville Municipal Stadium, Riverside and Springfield, but nothing has come of it.
They can't lose with those stops!! Can't lose at all! They shouldn't say Jax Stadium they should say Sports Entertainment Complex. There is more there than the stadium.
Riverplace Station should be back in the game once the Strade and Penisular have more residents. JTA biggest problem for me was the coin machines, I think more people are riding the actual train than what the turnstile is counting.
Lake whats the latest on that Bay Street Station mall/place? If that goes up then Jefferson/Bay Station will be rocking.
Its still in the preliminary planning stages. If it happens, it won't break ground until next year.
To the Sports complex area should have been done decades ago when they first started building, now you have higher cost for materials and condos down bay st. Alot of money has been lost during the many Jag/GA-FLA/SB, and other sporting events when people could have parked on the outlaying areas and ride the skyway to the stadium areas.
As long as the City of Jacksonville continues to build massive garages in the middle of Downtown and parking rates are cheaper than any other city our size, it will be hard has hell to get people to park on the edge of Downtown and ride the Skyway. It is as simple as that. Hopefully, one day when we have commuter rail, streetcars or ferry service we can feed people onto the system.
I ride the Skyway almost every week during lunch and it is usually pretty busy.
The idea of people driving through suburban congestion, to park on the edge of downtown and then take a tram a few blocks to their final destination would have never worked here. Especially, since it takes longer to get to the Kings Avenue Garage from I-95, then it does to drive to the Northbank. It was a bad concept from the start, with a bad half-finished route selected, so failure should be all that is expected, as long as it remains in its current state. However, like Miami's Metromover, it will be useful if a rail system that reaches the suburbs is constructed and connects with it. This way, it will be fed riders who would like to attempt to avoid parking fees and traffic congestion in the burbs of Jacksonville.
I was just stating what the Downtown Master Plan discusses. Parking on the edges and using the Skyway as a shuttle system. Maybe that plan should be rewritten. I do agree we need regional transit systems feeding into the Skyway!
It (the Master Plan) was never implemented and that's a bad suggestion on the Master Plan's part. I know you agree, we have to find a way to connect the skyway and downtown with areas outside of downtown's borders for mass transit to be effective.
This is interesting. I rode the Skyway this past Saturday and I was surprised to find it pretty busy. I had expected it to be empty but there was a good deal of activity.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 22, 2008, 09:18:27 AM
It (the Master Plan) was never implemented and that's a bad suggestion on the Master Plan's part. I know you agree, we have to find a way to connect the skyway and downtown with areas outside of downtown's borders for mass transit to be effective.
ABSO-FREAKIN-LUTELY
(http://static.flickr.com/36/99206680_b0258c6e31_o.jpg)
Okay, maybe the infamous "Puppy Mover" is a bit too shocking, but we need RADICAL help!
QuoteHow to shock the Skyway back to life? Okay, maybe not this radical, but we need to get to work.
Is the Skyway Doomed to the trash heap of Transit has-been's? How to save it, what do we need and how to find that "whiz-bang-wowzier!" of an attraction to this much maligned little train.
First a bit of history. Yes I was the first and LOUDEST critic of the Skyway in the City. I teamed up with then editor of the Jacksonville Journal and we blasted it with both barrels a pre-Skyway editorial. In fact I told George, it would be a "turkey", a really big turkey. That it didn't go anywhere anyone wanted to go, it wouldn't have the speed or capacity, would never get past 2ND rate and die in infamy. 27 years ago he published the editorial "Mann prefers Trolleys to People Mover". When that paper hit the stands, the war was on.
Today, I look back and EVERYTHING I said has happened just as I thought it would. Scary really, I get no satisfaction from it's monumental failure. Now the City has been headlined all around the world in two news articles ABC and CBS, one of which was titled, "What if they built a rapid transit system and nobody came..."
TAKING IT DOWN?
Now for the dollars and sense of the darn thing as it sits. We can't go back and tear it down. The basics, repair shop, technical mechanics, operating and signaling system, fleet and basic core are done. This SHOULD cut way back on the cost of any future expansion. Moreover we have already built it twice, the first time as a "people mover" and then retro-built the whole project as a true "monorail."
PICKING UP THE PIECES:
Several unfinished pieces of the Skyway need to be addressed for any chance of success.
For full text and continuation see:
http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/Ocklawaha
After looking at Ock's website that shows a video of the Skyway, I think it is amazing that the Skyway does not have more numbers. It really is like having a monorail that goes around the downtown core. It is a tremendous asset!!
I say the hell with light rail or BRT...you guys need to expand Skyway, giving it more stations, so more people will use it. That video really showed how cool it is to ride the system.
If I was working downtown, I'd ride it just to unwind after a long day!
Its too expensive, to go with over light rail, commuter rail or BRT, but it should be extended in certain areas to make the end points destinations. They also need to get creative in jumping the Skyway's revenue up. They can start with fixing the turnstiles and allowing train wrap advertising. It also wouldn't hurt to start using some of the larger stations for special event sites where attendees can use the skyway to "event" hop.
That's the problem, lake. Everybody talks about how expensive it is, but it is modern, clean, and efficient if expanded correctly. Believe me, more people would want to ride on a monorail like Skyway rather than a bus. Buses should be used for interstreet connectivity, but not for long distance commuting around the city. If Skyway was expanded to 6 cars, or even longer cars like Disney's monorail, more people could be carried.
Added destinations should include JIA, Sports Complex, the beaches, SJTC, and maybe stations in Brooklyn and Riverside.
I'm sorry, but that YouTube video Ock had on his blog has convinced me.
Charleston, Glad you liked the site and the video. Frankly, we agree on the potential of the Skyway, just keep in mind as-is it is far too slow, or at speed, far to bumpy (monorails gallop) to become regional. But short segments in prime corridors, something in the 2-5 mile range, would make perfect sense.
Keep in mind both monorails and heritage trolleys are electric trains. Both have the potential of incredible acceleration. For example the Tesla Sports car, TOTAL electric, goes zero to 60 in 4 seconds... faster then your friendly neighborhood Ferrari. Portland's joke about the "G FORCE LRT" trains.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/Eagle15.jpg)
Another vision? Yes, this is the Silver Eagle Model 15. Coffee bar in back, restrooms, work tables and TV, computer, music... IMAGINE this as "Air JTA" or "BEACHES", "ORANGE PARK", "ST AUGUSTINE" express.
Now for our vision to work, it can't be a Monorail vs Trolley vs Bus fight, it is rather a mass transit vs auto fight. Mass transit works great in layers, imagine for example a fine blanket covering the city. Every line of stitch is another transit line. Now imagine the blanket in vivid colors, blue for Skyway, white for bus, black for river bus, red for city bus, PURPLE for Streetcar etc... each serves the master purpose of transit, and thus holds the blanket together, but each serves it's own unique niche within the market, Skyway pulls in the futurist convention and stadium crowds, Streetcars the laid back nostalgia buffs and railroad community (remember we are HQ for two major railroads), express buses attract the business crowd, with TV, Wifi, coffee shop and restrooms... etc...
I'm not saying "It takes a village", but in transit it takes a multi-modal approach, each feeding and lifting the next to a higher level. KEEP ON CHEERING! WE NEED IT!
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteNow for our vision to work, it can't be a Monorail vs Trolley vs Bus fight, it is rather a mass transit vs auto fight. Mass transit works great in layers, imagine for example a fine blanket covering the city. Every line of stitch is another transit line.
No doubt. But we need to match sure we're not stitching the same paths with multiple layers, leaving other areas exposed and incomplete. :)
I guess I've been jaded with the many vacations my family and I have taken to Mickey-land...the monorail system there is so well-tuned that it makes the bus system (at least in the Magic Kingdom part of the resort) supplemental.
I agree that multi-modal is necessary, but just like WDW's system, if enough is invested into the monorail, it would become the foundation of a better transit system, then trolleys and buses can supplement it.
Ock, I don't know about the bumpiness being a problem. If vacationers can deal with it, I would think that commuters wouldn't even mind. As far as speed, I do think that the system should be upgraded with larger, more powerful cars. The current design is fine (of course we don't want them to look like Disney's).
The firm I work for just finished a six week inspection of the Skyway. After spending several days out there filling in for a coworker, I honestly believe (as Stephen mentioned) that broken turnstiles and lazy enforcement could easily account for the 20% drop in ridership. Firsthand, I observed every second or third rider at the Skyway doing the half pullback/slip through. Enforcement is an absolute joke.
I believe the Disney system is set up how a well planned city should be. Disney's mass transit leads from one walkable scaled hub of development to another. This could be accomplished with a 5 points, stadium, San Marco, Springfield system, but that's quite fanciful.
I can completely agree with Stephen here. :) Great point, Captain.
I have been on the skyway twice now.... Once with my dad when we went to the Landing together (around 2002) and then again a few months back while taking pictures. I thought it was awesome the first time (because I had not been to a city with light rail) The second time, I was stuck in it for 20 minutes. The power went out (along with the AC) and it was horrible. After it started back we went over the Acosta where there was another one stuck right on the top, with the doors open (scary).
I think the Idea of extending it to Riverside and Springfield are great! It would be great if it could also go to the San Marco Square.... But truly, we need light rail if we are ever going to compete with larger cities.
Agreed - I wouldn't invest a dime into the thing (other than maintenance) until we had rail transit to the burbs (and I don't mean a streetcard to Riverside or Springfield). When we have the commuter rail up and running to OP, then knock it out.
QuoteQuotezissou, this brilliant point, while certainly made many times over the years is made more poignant by your inclusion of the correlation to planning, walkability and the specific sites you mentioned.
I believe the Disney system is set up how a well planned city should be. Disney's mass transit leads from one walkable scaled hub of development to another. This could be accomplished with a 5 points, stadium, San Marco, Springfield system, but that's quite fanciful.
Y'all should be let in on an industry secret, nobody and I mean NOBODY takes Disneys transit as a tourist toy. In fact they, their leadership, design teams, contractors and idea guys are in front of the Mass Transit press constantly. The new Monorail cars are an "off the shelf product" they have left everyone in California asking why only the cab has AC!?!? The gallop errupts at about 45 to 55 MPH and can get pretty serious. The bus system is one of the top 10 in the nation, as are the ferrys. The steam trains are the real deal, coming from my beloved South America, or Southern Plantation Railroads and rebuilt in the Disney shops.
What kind of guy climbs in the smokebox of a 1911 model BALDWIN 2-6-0 (Mogul) steam locomotive with a wire brush, ash pail and a giant white smile? Okay BESIDES Ocklawaha? Try the late Walt Disney and his sidekick cartoonist Ward Kimball. Both of these guys were regular fixtures around the Southern California, "Los Angeles Live Steamers" of which I was a young member back in the 1960's-1980. Disney and Ward even went out and found the original engines somewhere near New Orleans on a sugar plantation. Ward had a few thousand feet of narrow gauge track down the side yard and into an extensive shop in his backyard/mini-orange grove. All of the LALS BOYZ busted our knuckles on those basket cases.
The moral of the story is, if you are SERIOUS about transportation, there is always a need for your help, no matter what walk of life you hail from. Disney is about some serious transportation, and they do a LOT of pioneering. Ocklawaha
^ Absolutely, Ock. I've always felt that cities should look to Disney for leadership and ideas to develop an awesome transportation system. It seems like many cities scoff at the idea, thinking that it's nothing but a kiddie park.
I would use the skyway every day if it was more like Space Mountain!! :o :o :D
QuoteDisney is about some serious transportation, and they do a LOT of pioneering.
And Disney has a lot of money, which tends to help.
Quote from: cline on July 23, 2008, 09:57:35 AM
QuoteDisney is about some serious transportation, and they do a LOT of pioneering.
And Disney has a lot of money, which tends to help.
So it would be wise to use that money they have spent on research of their transit systems.
Quote from: Charleston native on July 22, 2008, 01:15:23 PM
After looking at Ock's website that shows a video of the Skyway, I think it is amazing that the Skyway does not have more numbers. It really is like having a monorail that goes around the downtown core. It is a tremendous asset!!
I say the hell with light rail or BRT...you guys need to expand Skyway, giving it more stations, so more people will use it. That video really showed how cool it is to ride the system.
Ock and others have been screaming that forever lol!!
They could easily build 1 station every 4 years, Instead of 2 here 3 there like they did. Every 4-6 years a new station should open in a place people are and go. IE...Riverside, Springfield, Sport - Entertainment Complex & San Marco Square. removing it would be a waste.
Someone says get rid of the parking garages...hmm thats an idea.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 22, 2008, 01:20:51 PM
They can start with fixing the turnstiles and allowing train wrap advertising. It also wouldn't hurt to start using some of the larger stations for special event sites where attendees can use the skyway to "event" hop.
Isn't wrapping allowed? I think it is Lake, but many of the business are not really aware of the option. I never saw a Jax based company wrap any of the buses, vehicle wraps is still a new concept for Jax IMO. The only wraps I ever saw were from TV Stations or radio..mostly Clear Channel wraps.
I think one of JTAs priorities should be extending the Skyway to the Stadium/Arena/Baseball Park. And then of course fixing the whole turnstile mess. I think probably 1 in 3 people actually pay. I bet with access to the Sports complex, ridership and revenue would double in 1-2 years.
And I am also in huge support of banning any new parking garages downtown. If we made all city employees ride mass transit instead of giving them a free parking space, I bet things at JTA would change in a hurry.
I'm not aware of any wrapping being allowed on the Skyway. A few years ago, a company wanted to wrap them for the super bowl for a substantial amount of money, but the offer was declined.
Quote from: brainstormer on July 25, 2008, 03:49:51 PM
And I am also in huge support of banning any new parking garages downtown. If we made all city employees ride mass transit instead of giving them a free parking space, I bet things at JTA would change in a hurry.
City employees get free parking downtown?
Quote from: KenFSU on July 22, 2008, 03:42:02 PM
The firm I work for just finished a six week inspection of the Skyway. After spending several days out there filling in for a coworker, I honestly believe (as Stephen mentioned) that broken turnstiles and lazy enforcement could easily account for the 20% drop in ridership. Firsthand, I observed every second or third rider at the Skyway doing the half pullback/slip through. Enforcement is an absolute joke.
HEEEEEEYYYY How come StephenDare gets all the props? I mentioned broken machines too!! ha ha ha ha ha, but you are right though, The coin receiver/turnstiles are broken in some places. Central Station & Hemming Station were the worst that I remembered. They should just go card reader for the whole system.
Put "card vending machines" at all 8 stations. You put your money in, you get a card out, use your card to access instead of coins...like who uses coins anyway?? I can remember going to the artwork with friends on different times, drove to the Union Station and try to break the dollar at the change machine & the change machine didn't work, Now here we are trying to pay our way, but we only have 1 dollar bills. The turnstiles get jumped.