durp
Here, let me break it down for you, jlmann:
1) We—and I'm including you here—all agree the person who was assaulted is a victim, correct?
2) You argue that the person who was raped put themselves in this position.
3) Following this logic, it is the victim's fault they were raped.
4) Therefore, you are blaming the victim. This is literally what you are doing.
Quote from: jlmann on September 22, 2016, 12:05:21 PM
.... but if I went walking down 8th street at 2 am talking on a new iphone with a nice watch on display I'd say I was somewhat culpable for the events if that ensued.
Surely this is victim blaming? You are saying that by walking the streets of your own neighborhood at 2 am you share the blame for crimes committed by others.
Quote from: jlmann on September 22, 2016, 01:35:41 PM
Do people who smoke deserve cancer and various maladies as punishment? I don't think so. Plenty of people do it and never experience adverse affects, but one ought to know that some horrible things can happen to you if you make that choice.
Does someone who rides a motorcycles deserve to die? No. Does riding a motorcycle make you much much more likely to die on the road? Yes.
Whether or not you can foresee how badly your stupid decisions may or may not impact you doesn't make them any less stupid.
Jump in a pool of sharks you might get bit.
Ingesting carcinogens can cause cancer. That's not the same as taking a nap in your car because you're too drunk to drive. If she had decided to drive while drunk and had an accident, we'd all agree she was to blame.
A person riding a motorcycle doesn't 'deserve' to die, no. And if was hit and killed by a reckless driver, no one would claim he was 'culpable' because he chose to ride a motorcycle.
And choosing to jump into a pool of sharks is not the same as walking down your street and minding your own business.
No one is 'blaming' the girl for getting raped. Not even insinuating it. She did however increase the odds of SOMETHING happening.
Would something have happened if she were awake sitting in her car; or with the doors locked; or walking to her car; or walking from her car to her home; or while she was locked inside of her home asleep in her bed?? Most definitely something bad could happen, but the more barriers you put between yourself and opportunity the less likely anything will happen.
It's not victim blaming. It's just an (unneeded) acknowledgement that she removed layers of security through poor decision making.
Quote from: stephendare on September 22, 2016, 02:15:45 PM
... reasonable expectation...
You're so right. We should all expect, nay... DEMAND that all rapists (thieves, murderers and, you know, criminals in general) be more
reasonable when they're contemplating committing a crime.
Shit Stephen all of the
reasonable people walked right past her car and didn't think twice. It's the unreasonable ones that make your above logic flawed in the first place. Do we really have reasonable expectation to expect everyone to be reasonable?
I'm glad the POS was caught, and I hope that they have enough evidence to convict.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 22, 2016, 02:13:07 PM
No one is 'blaming' the girl for getting raped. Not even insinuating it. She did however increase the odds of SOMETHING happening.
Would something have happened if she were awake sitting in her car; or with the doors locked; or walking to her car; or walking from her car to her home; or while she was locked inside of her home asleep in her bed?? Most definitely something bad could happen, but the more barriers you put between yourself and opportunity the less likely anything will happen.
It's not victim blaming. It's just an (unneeded) acknowledgement that she removed layers of security through poor decision making.
Yes we can't fully blame the drunk driver for hitting us if we put ourselves out on the roads they use. We have certainly removed the layer of security of just sitting on the sofa.
Quote from: jlmann on September 22, 2016, 03:55:52 PM
Quote
Yes we can't fully blame the drunk driver for hitting us if we put ourselves out on the roads they use. We have certainly removed the layer of security of just sitting on the sofa.
good lord this from one who champions thinking critically.
You're acting like she got knocked over the head and shoved into a van leaving sunday school. If that had happened, maybe your example would be worth slightly more than squat, as it is in this case.
Erm....
QuoteDoes someone who rides a motorcycles deserve to die? No. Does riding a motorcycle make you much much more likely to die on the road? Yes.
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 22, 2016, 03:44:14 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 22, 2016, 02:13:07 PM
No one is 'blaming' the girl for getting raped. Not even insinuating it. She did however increase the odds of SOMETHING happening.
Would something have happened if she were awake sitting in her car; or with the doors locked; or walking to her car; or walking from her car to her home; or while she was locked inside of her home asleep in her bed?? Most definitely something bad could happen, but the more barriers you put between yourself and opportunity the less likely anything will happen.
It's not victim blaming. It's just an (unneeded) acknowledgement that she removed layers of security through poor decision making.
Yes we can't fully blame the drunk driver for hitting us if we put ourselves out on the roads they use. We have certainly removed the layer of security of just sitting on the sofa.
I bike on US17 all the time. If someone clips me from behind, is it my fault? No. Did I increase the chances of getting hit by riding on a highway with no bike lane and higher rates of speed? Of course I did. It's still no more or less my 'fault' for getting hit.
I have to believe that a few of you are just being obtuse on purpose because I can't comprehend an adult being this emotionally fragile.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 22, 2016, 04:05:16 PM
I bike on US17 all the time. If someone clips me from behind, is it my fault? No. Did I increase the chances of getting hit by riding on a highway with no bike lane and higher rates of speed? Of course I did. It's still no more or less my 'fault' for getting hit.
I have to believe that a few of you are just being obtuse on purpose because I can't comprehend an adult being this emotionally fragile.
I would agree with you, but:
Quotestating that someone put themselves in a stupid situation, and that their actions should be a cautionary tale does not equal victim blaming. this isn't some innocent 18 yr old who got drugged at a frat party
I found that to
border on cross the line into victim blaming.
^Dude, just stop.
Victim blaming is a devaluing act where the victim of a crime, an accident, or any type of abusive maltreatment is held as wholly or partially responsible for the wrongful conduct committed against them.
http://definitions.uslegal.com/v/victim-blaming/
(http://definitions.uslegal.com/v/victim-blaming/)
The biking analogies and rape are completely irrelevant to each other. One is likely a tragic accident that was very unlikely to be the intention of the perpetrator. The other is a heinous, intentional violation of one person by another.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 22, 2016, 02:34:39 PM
Quote from: stephendare on September 22, 2016, 02:15:45 PM
... reasonable expectation...
You're so right. We should all expect, nay... DEMAND that all rapists (thieves, murderers and, you know, criminals in general) be more reasonable when they're contemplating committing a crime.
Shit Stephen all of the reasonable people walked right past her car and didn't think twice. It's the unreasonable ones that make your above logic flawed in the first place. Do we really have reasonable expectation to expect everyone to be reasonable?
I'm glad the POS was caught, and I hope that they have enough evidence to convict.
Totally agree. In a perfect world it would not matter, but unfortunately it's not.
Stephen, I am curious: Do you lock your doors ?
Quote from: jlmann on September 22, 2016, 04:46:53 PM
QuoteThe biking analogies and rape are completely irrelevant to each other. One is likely a tragic accident that was very unlikely to be the intention of the perpetrator. The other is a heinous, intentional violation of one person by another.
Do they assumptions you make about the intentions of the attacker have anything to do with the fact that harm was done? If someone means to shoot me, or doesn't, the bullet is still doing damage. So this really isn't relevant.
If I get shot running around the woods where I know people are hunting, it's still a bad decision to put myself there. That's literally all I'm saying. Whether or not the person who pulled the trigger was aiming for me is irrelevant
You think it is a bad decision to put yourself in a position to be harmed by people doing legal things? Me too.
Do I think it is a bad idea to be passed out drunk in a car overnight? Probably, but I don't even know why she was in that position. Maybe she was drugged? Maybe her friends left her there instead of taking her home? Who cares?
This woman has an incredible burden to bear for the rest of her life. Another human intentionally violated her in horrific ways. In no way should we hold her responsible for the terrible act that was done to her. In no way should we diminish her unimaginable pain by insinuating she had something to do with it. That is all I am saying.
I know ya'll pride yourselves on vigorous debate and all that, but this is a conversation best had across a table.
Turning the horrific thing that happen to this local young lady into a question of semantics is ultimately more hurtful to her (considering she is very probably reading this) than it is beneficial to ya'lls truth seeking.
I would suggest deleting this.
It's bullshit victim-shaming like this that prevents so many women from reporting sexual assault. A dude literally rapes an unconscious woman, and the talk of the town is her lack of responsibility. Disgraceful.
Seems like a lot of bad stuff has been occurring around the King/College Street area in the last few years. I can only hope this doesn't stigmatize the area and ultimately hurt the local King St. businesses.
Same thing happened to a friend of mine a few years back. She met some guy in a bar, he got in the car and assaulted her. She was too ashamed to tell anyone until recently, unfortunately doesn't remember (or never knew) who the guy was. :-[
It seems that when a woman is raped, the first thing people do is examine her behaviour on the night in question. And that was one of the first things mentioned in the thread - the fact that she made a bad decision.
And then someone actually used the word "culpable".
That's why it seems like victim blaming.
^Seriously, jlmann, you've already derailed this thread to the point that your comments had to be split from the main thread. Just stop.
Is this dude for real?
Quote from: jlmann on September 23, 2016, 09:43:52 AM
I wish you guys best of luck defending the sacred feminist principal of being able to pass out unconscious in the street
LMFAO. I guess to you then that "sacred feminist principal" is bullsh*t and should anyone pass out in the street it's fair game to rape them. Ladies and Gentlemen steer clear of this one, they're a charmer.
Let's see, so I have now learned that female bodies are like properties, in fact they are just like houses. If you don't keep them locked up tight and secure at all times you are just begging to be violated. Does JSO also tell homeowners not to leave their valuables in plain sight or their shades open if they have nice things inside? You know, since that would be stupid and would tempt someone to target your house. Because I can just keep right on following this fantastic analogy you have going.