Florida school districts (which have the same boundaries as counties) are required by state law to provide the same level of funding for Title 1 charter schools as they provide for Title 1 district schools.
A Title one school, in a nutshell, means a particular school has surpassed a threshold of low-income students. Schools that are Title 1 schools receive a per student bump in funding. The dollars are federal, but states determine how to distribute those dollars.
In Duval, and it looks like it may be happening across the state, the money that should be going to Title 1 Charter schools are cut through budgetary "trickery". This type of reduction in funding wasn't the case several years ago.
The Title 1 dollars are broken up into two pots. One pot, a straight dollar per student distribution. Both charter and district schools receive the same level of dollars from this pot. The other pot goes to district level programs catering to Title 1 district schools. This means charter schools are not receiving the legally required $$$ as districts schools.
I know there is still lingering controversy over charter schools and in Florida that debate is essentially dead; charters are probably here to stay. However, the districts are getting savvy on handicapping their charter peers and ultimately handicapping the students that attend these types of public schools.
Charters, FYI, are supervised by the district and often viewed as competition not as co-laborers.
Not exactly true. Any district level positions or programs funded out of Title 1 are required to offer their services, but charter schools do not have to accept the service or program. As part of their "autonomy" they can refuse service and they often do because they don't want the kind of support being offered.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on September 12, 2016, 07:57:18 AM
Quote from: TheCat on September 11, 2016, 05:40:48 PM
However, the districts are getting savvy on handicapping their charter peers and ultimately handicapping the students that attend these types of public schools.
Good. Charter schools are a scam and should be killed in any way possible.
I agree. They should get rid of charter schools (and get rid of magnet schools while they're at it).
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on September 12, 2016, 07:57:18 AM
Quote from: TheCat on September 11, 2016, 05:40:48 PM
However, the districts are getting savvy on handicapping their charter peers and ultimately handicapping the students that attend these types of public schools.
Good. Charter schools are a scam and should be killed in any way possible.
How many charter schools have you been to? Great idea though. Put the poor kids back in their sh** schools where they belong. Competition is awful because before charters low income populated schools were just thriving.
Remember, you get to close down bad charter schools after two bad years...not so with bad public schools. There are a lot of bad charter schools that should be closed and hopefully will. But there are a lot of charter schools serving low income populations that are absolutely incredible.
Quote from: FlaBoy on September 12, 2016, 05:38:17 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on September 12, 2016, 07:57:18 AM
Quote from: TheCat on September 11, 2016, 05:40:48 PM
However, the districts are getting savvy on handicapping their charter peers and ultimately handicapping the students that attend these types of public schools.
Good. Charter schools are a scam and should be killed in any way possible.
How many charter schools have you been to? Great idea though. Put the poor kids back in their sh** schools where they belong. Competition is awful because before charters low income populated schools were just thriving.
Remember, you get to close down bad charter schools after two bad years...not so with bad public schools. There are a lot of bad charter schools that should be closed and hopefully will. But there are a lot of charter schools serving low income populations that are absolutely incredible.
A school cannot just 'fail' or be 'bad'. It's the people involved with them that are the problem. And if that's the case, there is no reason why the problem can't be fixed. The solution is not creeping privatisation of public education.
Sure it can. Duval has more than a few. My daughter was going to be forced to go to a violent and nasty F rated school. Luckily we managed to get her into a private school. I know most cannot do what I was able to do. Charters are an option. Some are good...some are not.
Quote from: Adam White on September 12, 2016, 05:50:37 PM
A school cannot just 'fail' or be 'bad'. It's the people involved with them that are the problem. And if that's the case, there is no reason why the problem can't be fixed. The solution is not creeping privatisation of public education.
When you say, 'the people involved', are you referring to students, parents of students or faculty or a combination of the three?
Quote from: Adam White on September 12, 2016, 05:50:37 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on September 12, 2016, 05:38:17 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on September 12, 2016, 07:57:18 AM
Quote from: TheCat on September 11, 2016, 05:40:48 PM
However, the districts are getting savvy on handicapping their charter peers and ultimately handicapping the students that attend these types of public schools.
Good. Charter schools are a scam and should be killed in any way possible.
How many charter schools have you been to? Great idea though. Put the poor kids back in their sh** schools where they belong. Competition is awful because before charters low income populated schools were just thriving.
Remember, you get to close down bad charter schools after two bad years...not so with bad public schools. There are a lot of bad charter schools that should be closed and hopefully will. But there are a lot of charter schools serving low income populations that are absolutely incredible.
A school cannot just 'fail' or be 'bad'. It's the people involved with them that are the problem. And if that's the case, there is no reason why the problem can't be fixed. The solution is not creeping privatisation of public education.
Wow. Why have we not thought of this before? It just takes other people being involved. You figured it out!
Quote from: FlaBoy on September 12, 2016, 09:58:51 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 12, 2016, 05:50:37 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on September 12, 2016, 05:38:17 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on September 12, 2016, 07:57:18 AM
Quote from: TheCat on September 11, 2016, 05:40:48 PM
However, the districts are getting savvy on handicapping their charter peers and ultimately handicapping the students that attend these types of public schools.
Good. Charter schools are a scam and should be killed in any way possible.
How many charter schools have you been to? Great idea though. Put the poor kids back in their sh** schools where they belong. Competition is awful because before charters low income populated schools were just thriving.
Remember, you get to close down bad charter schools after two bad years...not so with bad public schools. There are a lot of bad charter schools that should be closed and hopefully will. But there are a lot of charter schools serving low income populations that are absolutely incredible.
A school cannot just 'fail' or be 'bad'. It's the people involved with them that are the problem. And if that's the case, there is no reason why the problem can't be fixed. The solution is not creeping privatisation of public education.
Wow. Why have we not thought of this before? It just takes other people being involved. You figured it out!
Apparently we didn't - we just built new schools instead of bothering to fix the ones with issues.
The whole thing stinks and represents the inevitable race to the bottom that occurs when people decide that public services either have to generate a profit or be cost-neutral.
Pardon me... that I did not sacrifice my daughter on your public school altar
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 05:19:08 AM
Pardon me... that I did not sacrifice my daughter on your public school altar
Send her to private school and pay for it out of pocket. That's what the priviledged have been doing for ages.
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 07:07:42 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 05:19:08 AM
Pardon me... that I did not sacrifice my daughter on your public school altar
Send her to private school and pay for it out of pocket. That's what the priviledged have been doing for ages.
I did... but certainly not privileged. Most cannot do what I did... sooooo just "too bad for them"? The school Duval wanted to send my daughter to was awful looooong before she was to attend. Her attendance and my participation would not have changed a single thing about that hellhole.
Charters are not a perfect alternative... but they ARE an alternative...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 07:14:11 AM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 07:07:42 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 05:19:08 AM
Pardon me... that I did not sacrifice my daughter on your public school altar
Send her to private school and pay for it out of pocket. That's what the priviledged have been doing for ages.
I did... but certainly not privileged. Most cannot do what I did... sooooo just "too bad for them"? The school Duval wanted to send my daughter to was awful looooong before she was to attend. Her attendance and my participation would not have changed a single thing about that hellhole.
Charters are not a perfect alternative... but they ARE an alternative...
If you can and others can't, that's pretty much the definition of priviledge. I don't necessarily blame you - but I think the problem is that our priorities are wrong. And as long as the haves have other alternatives, there is no incentive to fix the problems. Things only get sorted when they begin to affect the rich white people. That's just the way it works, unfortunately.
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 07:18:56 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 07:14:11 AM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 07:07:42 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 05:19:08 AM
Pardon me... that I did not sacrifice my daughter on your public school altar
Send her to private school and pay for it out of pocket. That's what the priviledged have been doing for ages.
I did... but certainly not privileged. Most cannot do what I did... sooooo just "too bad for them"? The school Duval wanted to send my daughter to was awful looooong before she was to attend. Her attendance and my participation would not have changed a single thing about that hellhole.
Charters are not a perfect alternative... but they ARE an alternative...
If you can and others can't, that's pretty much the definition of priviledge. I don't necessarily blame you - but I think the problem is that our priorities are wrong. And as long as the haves have other alternatives, there is no incentive to fix the problems. Things only get sorted when they begin to affect the rich white people. That's just the way it works, unfortunately.
Dude... my family at the time was easily classified in the lower middle class. Glad to hear you think that is privileged... We scrimped and saved and sacrificed to do what we did. The point of the charter school is to give families with NO OPTIONs... some options. You seem to be saying... too bad for you... pretty harsh.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 07:24:19 AM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 07:18:56 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 07:14:11 AM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 07:07:42 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 05:19:08 AM
Pardon me... that I did not sacrifice my daughter on your public school altar
Send her to private school and pay for it out of pocket. That's what the priviledged have been doing for ages.
I did... but certainly not privileged. Most cannot do what I did... sooooo just "too bad for them"? The school Duval wanted to send my daughter to was awful looooong before she was to attend. Her attendance and my participation would not have changed a single thing about that hellhole.
Charters are not a perfect alternative... but they ARE an alternative...
If you can and others can't, that's pretty much the definition of priviledge. I don't necessarily blame you - but I think the problem is that our priorities are wrong. And as long as the haves have other alternatives, there is no incentive to fix the problems. Things only get sorted when they begin to affect the rich white people. That's just the way it works, unfortunately.
Dude... my family at the time was easily classified in the lower middle class. Glad to hear you think that is privileged... We scrimped and saved and sacrificed to do what we did. The point of the charter school is to give families with NO OPTIONs... some options. You seem to be saying... too bad for you... pretty harsh.
No, what I'm saying is that we need to fix the schools so we don't have to have "options" such as charter schools.
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 07:39:24 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 07:24:19 AM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 07:18:56 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 07:14:11 AM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 07:07:42 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 05:19:08 AM
Pardon me... that I did not sacrifice my daughter on your public school altar
Send her to private school and pay for it out of pocket. That's what the priviledged have been doing for ages.
I did... but certainly not privileged. Most cannot do what I did... sooooo just "too bad for them"? The school Duval wanted to send my daughter to was awful looooong before she was to attend. Her attendance and my participation would not have changed a single thing about that hellhole.
Charters are not a perfect alternative... but they ARE an alternative...
If you can and others can't, that's pretty much the definition of priviledge. I don't necessarily blame you - but I think the problem is that our priorities are wrong. And as long as the haves have other alternatives, there is no incentive to fix the problems. Things only get sorted when they begin to affect the rich white people. That's just the way it works, unfortunately.
Dude... my family at the time was easily classified in the lower middle class. Glad to hear you think that is privileged... We scrimped and saved and sacrificed to do what we did. The point of the charter school is to give families with NO OPTIONs... some options. You seem to be saying... too bad for you... pretty harsh.
No, what I'm saying is that we need to fix the schools so we don't have to have "options" such as charter schools.
And I agree... that the schools need fixing. But when a parent is faced with sending a child to a hellhole for "school"... they need an alternative. Private and parochial schools are often out of reach. I agree charters have a "checkered" resume... but there are good ones and that choice should be available until the public school is... "fixed".
Dysfunction in urban school districts such as Duval is what's driving the charter school movement. The same issue has made families of means move to suburban districts with better schools (white flight), or send their kids to private schools or magnets where they exist for many years. It's a deep rooted problem, and closing down charter schools isn't going to do a thing to help it, not to mention that it's not going to happen.
In Duval County, the school district has been dysfunctional since at least the 60s. Before that, it was segregated, so things were even worse. Attacking charter schools is picking around the edges of our real problems.
What is so dysfunctional about DCPSs?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 13, 2016, 10:27:16 AM
What is so dysfunctional about DCPSs?
It's just got the same problems facing a lot of urban school districts. It's very large and has historically been underfunded. It handled desegregation very poorly in the 60s and 70s and we're still facing the effects of that. Too many schools closed haphazardly, and they probably didn't build enough new ones in developing areas. The biggest issue is demographics - schools generally reflect their neighborhood or student base, and there are large swaths of town where people suffer from poverty, crime, and instability, and don't emphasize education. That affects the whole district, and it's a very difficult problem to overcome even for the highest performing school districts.
It is not just urban schools in Duval... my daughter went to a math science magnet in the core and thrived. The local suburban hellhole she was going to be sent to was a perennial failing F school. We did not have a charter school option...
Quote from: Tacachale on September 13, 2016, 10:53:08 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 13, 2016, 10:27:16 AM
What is so dysfunctional about DCPSs?
It's just got the same problems facing a lot of urban school districts. It's very large and has historically been underfunded. It handled desegregation very poorly in the 60s and 70s and we're still facing the effects of that. Too many schools closed haphazardly, and they probably didn't build enough new ones in developing areas. The biggest issue is demographics - schools generally reflect their neighborhood or student base, and there are large swaths of town where people suffer from poverty, crime, and instability, and don't emphasize education. That affects the whole district, and it's a very difficult problem to overcome even for the highest performing school districts.
You're generalizing.
What, specifically, is so dysfunctional?
Background - I have 1 who's a Junior and has been through DCPS his whole time: Upson ES, Ribault MS, Lee HS.
I see ZERO difference in the education that he's gotten than the one that my other 2 (who are in a private school) are getting.
I have another who has a few years before she starts and I'm definitely leaning DCPS for her as well.
What EXACTLY is the problem with DCPS? Because IMHO, i feel that in most cases, the problem isn't truly with the school itself.
And to further BTs last comment, my son is in the dual enrollment program and has been through the accelerated magnet program since middle school, hence the 3 years at Ribault. He carries a 4.something weighted GPA and is now full time at FSCJs Kent campus. My point being, there are opportunities there if we take advantage of them.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 11:01:03 AM
It is not just urban schools in Duval... my daughter went to a math science magnet in the core and thrived. The local suburban hellhole she was going to be sent to was a perennial failing F school. We did not have a charter school option...
I mean "urban" in the sense that the district includes the actual city, rather than strictly suburban districts like St. Johns. Schools in more hard put suburban districts will have the same issues, especially when the district as a whole is strained. Magnet schools tend to reflect their student body, who naturally don't all come from the neighborhood.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 13, 2016, 11:09:54 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on September 13, 2016, 10:53:08 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 13, 2016, 10:27:16 AM
What is so dysfunctional about DCPSs?
It's just got the same problems facing a lot of urban school districts. It's very large and has historically been underfunded. It handled desegregation very poorly in the 60s and 70s and we're still facing the effects of that. Too many schools closed haphazardly, and they probably didn't build enough new ones in developing areas. The biggest issue is demographics - schools generally reflect their neighborhood or student base, and there are large swaths of town where people suffer from poverty, crime, and instability, and don't emphasize education. That affects the whole district, and it's a very difficult problem to overcome even for the highest performing school districts.
You're generalizing.
What, specifically, is so dysfunctional?
Background - I have 1 who's a Junior and has been through DCPS his whole time: Upson ES, Ribault MS, Lee HS.
I see ZERO difference in the education that he's gotten than the one that my other 2 (who are in a private school) are getting.
I have another who has a few years before she starts and I'm definitely leaning DCPS for her as well.
What EXACTLY is the problem with DCPS? Because IMHO, i feel that in most cases, the problem isn't truly with the school itself.
And to further BTs last comment, my son is in the dual enrollment program and has been through the accelerated magnet program since middle school, hence the 3 years at Ribault. He carries a 4.something weighted GPA and is now full time at FSCJs Kent campus. My point being, there are opportunities there if we take advantage of them.
Specifically, it is "very large" and "historically underfunded". It also "handled desegregation very poorly in the 60s and 70s and we're still facing the effects of that". As one example, the schools are apparently more segregated today than they were in the 90s', and that's without counting the mostly white schools in the metro outside the county. Additionally, having to demote so many resources to struggling schools means less for the others. Unfortunately, this pushes an unusual number of families into other districts, private schools, or the magnets. A recent study showed that Duval County has a disproportionate problem with teacher retention - new teachers get burnt out at the struggling schools and move on.
All that said, it's possible to get an excellent education at Duval County Schools. There are good schools in the district, and within many schools, even the struggling ones, there are top notch programs and teachers. That's especially true for magnet students and other high performers. Many of the best and brightest folks in town came out of Duval County schools, and conversely, some of the biggest losers I've ever met have come from private schools and SJCSD. However, on average, DCPS underperforms, and the current rate of charter, private schools, and white flight is a symptom of that.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 13, 2016, 11:09:54 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on September 13, 2016, 10:53:08 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 13, 2016, 10:27:16 AM
What is so dysfunctional about DCPSs?
It's just got the same problems facing a lot of urban school districts. It's very large and has historically been underfunded. It handled desegregation very poorly in the 60s and 70s and we're still facing the effects of that. Too many schools closed haphazardly, and they probably didn't build enough new ones in developing areas. The biggest issue is demographics - schools generally reflect their neighborhood or student base, and there are large swaths of town where people suffer from poverty, crime, and instability, and don't emphasize education. That affects the whole district, and it's a very difficult problem to overcome even for the highest performing school districts.
You're generalizing.
What, specifically, is so dysfunctional?
Background - I have 1 who's a Junior and has been through DCPS his whole time: Upson ES, Ribault MS, Lee HS.
I see ZERO difference in the education that he's gotten than the one that my other 2 (who are in a private school) are getting.
I have another who has a few years before she starts and I'm definitely leaning DCPS for her as well.
What EXACTLY is the problem with DCPS? Because IMHO, i feel that in most cases, the problem isn't truly with the school itself.
And to further BTs last comment, my son is in the dual enrollment program and has been through the accelerated magnet program since middle school, hence the 3 years at Ribault. He carries a 4.something weighted GPA and is now full time at FSCJs Kent campus. My point being, there are opportunities there if we take advantage of them.
I agree with your premise that if a kid wants to succeed, the resources are there for them. However, the atmosphere at Ribault is different than Mandarin. I taught at a school on the northwest side of town for several years and I am so proud of many of my students who have done great things. However, most of my students couldn't come close to reading at grade level. Even my successful students who went on to reputable four year universities were behind their peers from Fletcher or Mandarin. I had a few bright and shining stars who could go head to head with anyone but the system failed most of my students because it was an uphill battle by the time they reached my classroom. A dirty little secret: most of my students had to take remedial classes in college after they got there (especially at reputable four year universities) because they were behind even with a 4.3 GPA.
Before they eased up the FSA for high schools, Ribault/Raines/Jackson were all around 10-15% of kids reading on grade level in 10th grade for the life of the FCAT. Those schools lived and died on gains scores to not be an F. The one size fits all system that DCPS has pushed, and most districts, has failed kids in lower income communities. Charters are a beautiful thing because they can be innovative and try things for different populations. Some are incredibly successful and some aren't. The ones that aren't successful are shut down or don't have enough kids. The ones that are successful replicate and have waiting lists. In the end, are kids learning and being supported at school enough to succeed? That is not a one size fits all question. It certainly is not just a funding specific issue either where Jackson got more than double the per pupil funding that Mandarin received last year. It is a real systemic issue that takes a lot of different experimental solutions to try and solve. Charters are just one way.
Quote from: stephendare on September 13, 2016, 12:19:31 PM
And what about all the kids whose chance at education was shot because they went to a bad charter school?
Or the ones who didn't get in because they didn't meet the requirements or the waiting list was too long?
I'm just throwing some stuff out there and thinking out loud now:
Are we really helping ourselves with the "No Child Left Behind" policies?
Should there be more options regarding trade schools and such for students with no inclination for furthering their education?
Are MORE schools really the answer or does that just stretch the available resources thin?
I also think everyone should reacquaint themselves with this video (long but worth it) ;) :
https://www.youtube.com/v/KOPZH1IyaRk?
A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:33:41 PM
A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?
Why make the distinction? Surely we can all agree that bad schools are bad. We all want our kids to recieve the best possible education in the best possible environment.
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:33:41 PM
A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?
Why make the distinction? Surely we can all agree that bad schools are bad. We all want our kids to recieve the best possible education in the best possible environment.
I didnt... initially
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:40:33 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:33:41 PM
A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?
Why make the distinction? Surely we can all agree that bad schools are bad. We all want our kids to recieve the best possible education in the best possible environment.
I didnt... initially
Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here. I think the solution is to make public schools the priority and work to fix those (and, if necessary, build new public schools to replace 'failing' ones) rather than create a parallel quasi-public school system that lacks the accountability of public schools.
Quote from: stephendare on September 13, 2016, 12:46:11 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:33:41 PM
A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?
Why make the distinction? Surely we can all agree that bad schools are bad. We all want our kids to recieve the best possible education in the best possible environment.
Except that--as already noted--the public schools at least have the tools available for motivated students that put in the time and effort to get an education.
With Charters, those tools often aren't even there.
Of course with the seepage of money from a school district into private hands, those tools will eventually erode away as well.
But thats kind of the point isn't it?
Charter Schools were driven from their inception as a way to avoid Darwin and minorities.
Some genuinely amazing schools have come out of the laboratory, obviously.
But why should those private institutions be funded with tax payer money? Why shouldn't they have the same process as a traditional private school?
See my response above!
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:44:31 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:40:33 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:33:41 PM
A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?
Why make the distinction? Surely we can all agree that bad schools are bad. We all want our kids to recieve the best possible education in the best possible environment.
I didnt... initially
Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here. I think the solution is to make public schools the priority and work to fix those (and, if necessary, build new public schools to replace 'failing' ones) rather than create a parallel quasi-public school system that lack the accountability of public schools.
How does using resources to build another school fix a failing one?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 13, 2016, 12:49:47 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:44:31 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:40:33 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:33:41 PM
A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?
Why make the distinction? Surely we can all agree that bad schools are bad. We all want our kids to recieve the best possible education in the best possible environment.
I didnt... initially
Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here. I think the solution is to make public schools the priority and work to fix those (and, if necessary, build new public schools to replace 'failing' ones) rather than create a parallel quasi-public school system that lack the accountability of public schools.
How does using resources to build another school fix a failing one?
Well, it worked in the case of the Hackney Downs School and Mossbourne Academy.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossbourne_Community_Academy
Edit: it wasn't simply about a new building, though.
It really should be more about changes in approach, etc - but building newer, better schools can help. We obviously want our kids to be able to learn in the best possible environment.
Simply building a new school won't help on its own - but if an older school was overcrowded or was no longer fit for purpose, it would make sense to replace it with a newer, better building.
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:44:31 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:40:33 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:33:41 PM
A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?
Why make the distinction? Surely we can all agree that bad schools are bad. We all want our kids to recieve the best possible education in the best possible environment.
I didnt... initially
Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here. I think the solution is to make public schools the priority and work to fix those (and, if necessary, build new public schools to replace 'failing' ones) rather than create a parallel quasi-public school system that lacks the accountability of public schools.
What you suggest and others suggest is of course the long term goal isn't it? The problem is the here and now. When YOUR child is going to School X with failing grades and violence... you need a solution NOW. We had two choices... send child to school x or move. Some choice eh? I had the ability (barely) to afford a parochial school. Those that couldn't ... had no choice... they were forced to send their children to that perennial failing school.
So the charter offers a choice... it may be good... it may be bad... but the parents at least have options.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 01:24:51 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:44:31 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:40:33 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:33:41 PM
A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?
Why make the distinction? Surely we can all agree that bad schools are bad. We all want our kids to recieve the best possible education in the best possible environment.
I didnt... initially
Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here. I think the solution is to make public schools the priority and work to fix those (and, if necessary, build new public schools to replace 'failing' ones) rather than create a parallel quasi-public school system that lacks the accountability of public schools.
What you suggest and others suggest is of course the long term goal isn't it? The problem is the here and now. When YOUR child is going to School X with failing grades and violence... you need a solution NOW. We had two choices... send child to school x or move. Some choice eh? I had the ability (barely) to afford a parochial school. Those that couldn't ... had no choice... they were forced to send their children to that perennial failing school.
So the charter offers a choice... it may be good... it may be bad... but the parents at least have options.
Of course it's a long-term goal, though I think it needn't be all that long. But it needs to be a goal - and right now, there seems to be no appetite for it. Because it costs money. Because people don't like to pay taxes, etc.
I think our priorities are out of whack, but that's just me.
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 01:30:59 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 01:24:51 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:44:31 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:40:33 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 12:39:18 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 12:33:41 PM
A better question should be.... What about all those children whose chance at education was shot because they attended a bad public school?
Why make the distinction? Surely we can all agree that bad schools are bad. We all want our kids to recieve the best possible education in the best possible environment.
I didnt... initially
Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes here. I think the solution is to make public schools the priority and work to fix those (and, if necessary, build new public schools to replace 'failing' ones) rather than create a parallel quasi-public school system that lacks the accountability of public schools.
What you suggest and others suggest is of course the long term goal isn't it? The problem is the here and now. When YOUR child is going to School X with failing grades and violence... you need a solution NOW. We had two choices... send child to school x or move. Some choice eh? I had the ability (barely) to afford a parochial school. Those that couldn't ... had no choice... they were forced to send their children to that perennial failing school.
So the charter offers a choice... it may be good... it may be bad... but the parents at least have options.
Of course it's a long-term goal, though I think it needn't be all that long. But it needs to be a goal - and right now, there seems to be no appetite for it. Because it costs money. Because people don't like to pay taxes, etc.
I think our priorities are out of whack, but that's just me.
So what is your solution to "right now"? Your son is going to failing school x next month. What does Adam do?
Most private schools are out of reach for wide swaths of the populace. Functionally, they're not better for the school district than charter schools are; they take students (often high performers) and potential resources of of the district. Even public magnet programs have their drawbacks - they also take high performing students and potential resources out of neighborhood schools.
Truly fixing the school district means fixing poverty, segregation, sprawl, inequality, white flight, institutional issues arising from a massive school district, historical funding problems, and various cultural features. That's not an easy fix. You could get rid of all charter schools and not be any closer to fixing the root of the problem.
It is not an easy fix... nor does it address the parents dilemma... NOW.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 01:33:37 PM
So what is your solution to "right now"? Your son is going to failing school x next month. What does Adam do?
But it begs the question that I've asked myself BT - Does a failing school mean that my child fails to learn? I say no. He was part of the original class at Ribault MS used to help bring their overall grades up. His education didn't suffer because it was a 'failing' school.
I'd even suggest that he learned more, not just school-wise, from going there and it will serve to help him later in life.
And don't get me wrong, the reputation of the school and the neighborhood around it caused some worry initially, but I figured that if he could make it through the first month without getting his ass kicked, then he would be fine. It's diversity training and I believe those 3 years will only help enable him to handle most anything put in front of him.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 01:33:37 PM
So what is your solution to "right now"? Your son is going to failing school x next month. What does Adam do?
That's a great question, BT. And to be honest, I don't know.
My kid is three and he will be entering primary school next September (reception - the English equivalent of kindergarten). I have to list my five top choices of schools that we can attend (we have to live in the catchment area for the schools). He will then go to the school that he is assigned to - even if it isn't on my list of five.
I suppose my option if he got into a 'bad' school would be home schooling, though I am not sure we can afford that. I also couldn't afford a private school, though I am opposed to private education. And I would never send him to a CoE or RC school (not that we could necessarily get a place in one of those).
I can only guess what I will do or would do. I wish I could give you a solid answer, but I think it would be dishonest of me.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 13, 2016, 02:06:49 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 01:33:37 PM
So what is your solution to "right now"? Your son is going to failing school x next month. What does Adam do?
But it begs the question that I've asked myself BT - Does a failing school mean that my child fails to learn? I say no. He was part of the original class at Ribault MS used to help bring their overall grades up. His education didn't suffer because it was a 'failing' school.
I'd even suggest that he learned more, not just school-wise, from going there and it will serve to help him later in life.
And don't get me wrong, the reputation of the school and the neighborhood around it caused some worry initially, but I figured that if he could make it through the first month without getting his ass kicked, then he would be fine. It's diversity training and I believe those 3 years will only help enable him to handle most anything put in front of him.
We all ask ourselves those questions don't we? We all have decisions to make... what is best for my child? Apparently there is an entire legion of folks who do not want choices in education. We took a second, third, and forth look at our budget... cut this... adjusted that... went without etc to go to a parochial school. Most parochial schools
require parental participation...
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 02:12:58 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 01:33:37 PM
So what is your solution to "right now"? Your son is going to failing school x next month. What does Adam do?
That's a great question, BT. And to be honest, I don't know.
My kid is three and he will be entering primary school next September (reception - the English equivalent of kindergarten). I have to list my five top choices of schools that we can attend (we have to live in the catchment area for the schools). He will then go to the school that he is assigned to - even if it isn't on my list of five.
I suppose my option if he got into a 'bad' school would be home schooling, though I am not sure we can afford that. I also couldn't afford a private school, though I am opposed to private education. And I would never send him to a CoE or RC school (not that we could necessarily get a place in one of those).
I can only guess what I will do or would do. I wish I could give you a solid answer, but I think it would be dishonest of me.
Exactly where I was at a long time ago... never really thought about it. Until the day came when we were assigned school x... when we thought we were going to A,B, or C.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 02:17:02 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 02:12:58 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 01:33:37 PM
So what is your solution to "right now"? Your son is going to failing school x next month. What does Adam do?
That's a great question, BT. And to be honest, I don't know.
My kid is three and he will be entering primary school next September (reception - the English equivalent of kindergarten). I have to list my five top choices of schools that we can attend (we have to live in the catchment area for the schools). He will then go to the school that he is assigned to - even if it isn't on my list of five.
I suppose my option if he got into a 'bad' school would be home schooling, though I am not sure we can afford that. I also couldn't afford a private school, though I am opposed to private education. And I would never send him to a CoE or RC school (not that we could necessarily get a place in one of those).
I can only guess what I will do or would do. I wish I could give you a solid answer, but I think it would be dishonest of me.
Exactly where I was at a long time ago... never really thought about it. Until the day came when we were assigned school x... when we thought we were going to A,B, or C.
I'll be honest with you - this sort of thing worries me. But then again, when we were looking for a nursery, we couldn't get into the 'good' ones in our area (due to a baby boom we were part of). We ended up having to 'settle' for the Council-run one in a less salubrious area of the borough. It ended up being brilliant - he loved it and all my concerns appear to have been unfounded.
But it could've been worse, of course. I guess you never know.
Quote from: Tacachale on September 13, 2016, 01:49:15 PM
Truly fixing the school district means fixing poverty, segregation, sprawl, inequality, white flight, institutional issues arising from a massive school district, historical funding problems, and various cultural features. That's not an easy fix. You could get rid of all charter schools and not be any closer to fixing the root of the problem.
I tried responding to this once and it didn't take - so apologies if it posts twice.
Whilst I agree that these conditions are underlying causes, I don't think they necessarily need to be addressed before we can fix our schools. Charter and private schools are able to succeed in spite of these conditions. These problems exist the world over, in varying degrees, yet people deal with it.
Perhaps we can learn from charter schools and apply those lessons to public schools. I honestly believe we can go a long way towards sorting out the issues with our public schools if we really wanted to.
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 02:24:41 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 02:17:02 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 02:12:58 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 01:33:37 PM
So what is your solution to "right now"? Your son is going to failing school x next month. What does Adam do?
That's a great question, BT. And to be honest, I don't know.
My kid is three and he will be entering primary school next September (reception - the English equivalent of kindergarten). I have to list my five top choices of schools that we can attend (we have to live in the catchment area for the schools). He will then go to the school that he is assigned to - even if it isn't on my list of five.
I suppose my option if he got into a 'bad' school would be home schooling, though I am not sure we can afford that. I also couldn't afford a private school, though I am opposed to private education. And I would never send him to a CoE or RC school (not that we could necessarily get a place in one of those).
I can only guess what I will do or would do. I wish I could give you a solid answer, but I think it would be dishonest of me.
Exactly where I was at a long time ago... never really thought about it. Until the day came when we were assigned school x... when we thought we were going to A,B, or C.
I'll be honest with you - this sort of thing worries me. But then again, when we were looking for a nursery, we couldn't get into the 'good' ones in our area (due to a baby boom we were part of). We ended up having to 'settle' for the Council-run one in a less salubrious area of the borough. It ended up being brilliant - he loved it and all my concerns appear to have been unfounded.
But it could've been worse, of course. I guess you never know.
True... everything worked for the NRW clan... it may have worked out for mine also... but... as you said... you never know.
The point I am trying to make is the charter school is and should be an option. It certainly is not a solution to dysfunctional schools but it gives some parents a choice. Home school is another...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 13, 2016, 02:30:20 PM
Quote from: Adam White on September 13, 2016, 02:24:41 PM
I'll be honest with you - this sort of thing worries me. But then again, when we were looking for a nursery, we couldn't get into the 'good' ones in our area (due to a baby boom we were part of). We ended up having to 'settle' for the Council-run one in a less salubrious area of the borough. It ended up being brilliant - he loved it and all my concerns appear to have been unfounded.
But it could've been worse, of course. I guess you never know.
True... everything worked for the NRW clan... it may have worked out for mine also... but... as you said... you never know.
The point I am trying to make is the charter school is and should be an option. It certainly is not a solution to dysfunctional schools but it gives some parents a choice. Home school is another...
Yes. So far it has. I'm still far from done, though. And what has worked for one, I really don't think would have the same effect with the middle two and it's still too early to tell anything about the youngest. And I'm not suggesting that what works for me would work for anyone else or vice versa, just sharing my experience thus far.
If we revisit this in about 17 years I'll have a better understanding if my fortune so far was nature or nurture. ;D
Quote from: stephendare on September 13, 2016, 02:45:30 AM
and then started defunding all of them in order to give money to private charter schools where, for the most part, children wouldn't be exposed to legalized homos, evolution, or sex education of any kind.
also global warming.
What's a "legalized homo?" Is there an "illegalized homo?"
What does that even mean, Steve-O?
Quote from: stephendare on September 15, 2016, 01:14:34 PM
Quote from: menace1069 on September 15, 2016, 12:22:38 PM
Quote from: stephendare on September 13, 2016, 02:45:30 AM
and then started defunding all of them in order to give money to private charter schools where, for the most part, children wouldn't be exposed to legalized homos, evolution, or sex education of any kind.
also global warming.
What's a "legalized homo?" Is there an "illegalized homo?"
What does that even mean, Steve-O?
It used to be illegal to be gay. Wasn't universally legal for LGBT people to have sex until 2003. 13 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowers_v._Hardwick
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_v._Texas
surprised you didn't know that.
Lots of people were arrested and jailed for it.
The 'gay agenda' hysteria was actually the claim by falwell and the like that legalized homosexuality was being plotted by the queer masters with their complicit fellow travelers in the media.
Coming to convert your children by force in the near future.
Charter Schools and Private schools had a minor boomlet over the issue.
In a private setting, children wouldn't have to be exposed to the evil gays, or hear about their plans for world equality.
I did not know that. I knew that people had issues with the subject, but I didn't realize that it was actually "illegal."
Interesting.
Good points and thoughtful responses by everyone.
Love them or hate them, there is no way Charters are going to be dismantled in Florida anytime soon. Our representatives are all for expanding choice in as many ways as possible. Jeb's ed. advocacy groups rank Florida reps by their support of choice based education policies; the majority have high ratings. But, it seems, our officials are more interested in the means and not the end. They think school choice is the issue they are solving. But, "choice" is not the issue. Low - quality education is the issue we are trying to solve.
When it comes to education, no one wants choice. Choice is not the end. It should be the means to the end. This understanding is lost on many proponents of school choice.
If we had to choose between a system that creates 100 mediocre schools or a system that allows for one amazing school per student; no one will argue for more options. That's the problem I have with Florida's approach to education. It's less about the end product and more about the process.
Having said that, the attitudes in this forum arguing against charters are like tea party Repubs on Obamacare "repeal it."
Not going to happen.
So, you might as well start wrangling charters (and healthcare) into a proper beast instead of trying to starve it until it dies.
Charters won't die until district schools become the obvious choice for education.
Like the proposed "public option" for healthcare. If the choice is a no-brainer, charters won't be needed. I do feel the charter movement is doing what it needs to do on one level, which is force districts to become aggressive and progressive in this fight to educate.
For now, the Florida charter market is skewed to benefit charter schools where they are not necessarily needed, where the district schools are decent. The costs are usually lower to educate in higher-income neighborhoods because less remediation is needed...among other services.
When the opportunity comes to ensure there is more funding for charters that are genuinely non-profit it should be taken. Otherwise, you'll have the continued profiteering that so many are opposed to.
Out of the 600 charters in Florida about 200 are Title 1. The majority of charters in Florida are for-profit schools. Those for-profits are not serving low-income students.
(The "for-profit" part is loop-holey because, I THINK, technically it is against the law for a for-profit company to run a charter school.)
Charters in low-income communities will typically receive the same amount of dollars as the charters in neighborhoods that are not low-income. It's simply not fair and it promotes the wrong incentives. These charters should receive every dollar due to them. Title 1 dollars belong to the student, not the district.