QuoteTwo former Jacksonville City Council presidents say Mayor Lenny Curry's plan to use a sales tax to pay down the city's $2.85 billion pension debt amounts to "taxation without representation" for future generations and a mistaken way to resolve the high-profile problem, a rare rebuke of a plan that has otherwise enjoyed virtually unanimous support from Jacksonville's political establishment.
Stephen Joost and Bill Bishop, who both served eight years as council members, are so far the most prominent citizens to speak out against Curry's plan, which the two said in an interview Wednesday they did reluctantly.
"Every generation is supposed to make the next generation better off," Joost said. "This plan falls short of that."
The two men were often on opposite sides during debates that took place during former Mayor Alvin Brown's term in office, but they now both agree that Curry's pension plan would "kick the can down the road" by delaying the bulk of the city's debt payments for 15 years.
Curry wants to enact a half-cent sales tax that would begin after the Better Jacksonville half-cent sales tax expires in 2030. The new tax, by state law, could only be dedicated to paying off the city's $2.85 billion pension debt. Voters will decide the issue on the Aug. 30 ballot.
Joost and Bishop said the plan is flawed because the city needs revenue now, and deferring debt payments until a future tax kicks in comes with a hefty price tag that will fall to future generations to pay.
Bishop said enacting a tax increase now would pass muster with voters if they understood the full story about the pension problem.
"If you tell them straight what's going on, they get it," Bishop said. "Twenty years from now, people will thanks us for that."
They did not express a preference for what kind of tax the city should levy, but they insisted that the city is in dire need of more money now so it can begin paying off the unfunded pension liability as quickly as possible.
"Any tax. Just pick one, for the love of god," Joost said. "Pick one and do it now. It's our responsibility to pay for it."
Curry's tax, which would begin in 2031, would not by itself offer the city any financial relief. Deferring much of the debt payments until later years when the tax begins — as an outside analysis conducted at the Curry administration's behest suggests — could offer the city financial relief ranging from $40 million to $68 million per year.
But that comes with a cost. Deferring payments would add about $1.5 billion more in pension payments through 2049.
Joost and Bishop called that plan "short-term gain for long-term pain." They also questioned the wisdom of relying on a revenue stream that begins more than a decade from now, saying it's impossible to make reliable economic projections so far out.
Neither Joost nor Bishop, who are both Republicans, supported Curry in last year's mayoral campaign. Joost backed Brown, a Democrat, and Bishop was himself a candidate for mayor. He came in third in the spring First Election.
Bishop has expressed interest in running for mayor in the future, but he said that did not factor into his decision to come out against Curry's plan. He chalked his comments up as "loyal opposition."
"I want Lenny to succeed as mayor," Bishop said.
Joost said he was hesitant to make any public comments about Curry's plan — "who wants to come out against the machinery?" — but he said it's become a "matter of conscience."
He said he agrees with Curry's approach that a new tax is necessary to solve the debt problem but disagrees about when to levy it and who should carry the most burden.
Curry has rejected the characterization that his plan amounts to a "new" tax, insisting that it is a tax "extension" because residents would continue paying the same half-cent tax in the future they pay now.
Opposition to Curry's plan has so far come from John Winker, the president of the Concerned Taxpayers of Duval County, and a smattering of residents who have shown up to voice concerns at City Council meetings.
Most of the city's business, civic and political establishment have lined up firmly behind Curry's plan.
This is a developing story that will be updated throughout the day.
Nate Monroe: (904) 359-4289
http://m.wap.jacksonville.com/news/2016-08-10/story/two-former-city-council-presidents-call-mayor-currys-pension-plan-taxation#gsc.tab=0 (http://m.wap.jacksonville.com/news/2016-08-10/story/two-former-city-council-presidents-call-mayor-currys-pension-plan-taxation#gsc.tab=0)
Quote from: TheCat on August 10, 2016, 12:52:37 PM
QuoteTwo former Jacksonville City Council presidents say Mayor Lenny Curry's plan to use a sales tax to pay down the city's $2.85 billion pension debt amounts to "taxation without representation" for future generations and a mistaken way to resolve the high-profile problem, a rare rebuke of a plan that has otherwise enjoyed virtually unanimous support from Jacksonville's political establishment.
"Every generation is supposed to make the next generation better off," Joost said. "This plan falls short of that."
http://m.wap.jacksonville.com/news/2016-08-10/story/two-former-city-council-presidents-call-mayor-currys-pension-plan-taxation#gsc.tab=0 (http://m.wap.jacksonville.com/news/2016-08-10/story/two-former-city-council-presidents-call-mayor-currys-pension-plan-taxation#gsc.tab=0)
Isn't that what caused this mess in the first place? We are burdened with crippling debut because previous generations were giving themselves massive pensions. At least this provides a way to address the issue.
One could say why didnt Joost or Bishop deal with it in "their" generation?
What happened to Joost's conscience when he was on the council? Did it go on hiatus when Keane was robbing the bank?
Disagree is fine, leave out the metaphors.
Quote from: spuwho on August 10, 2016, 01:56:03 PM
One could say why didnt Joost or Bishop deal with it in "their" generation?
What happened to Joost's conscience when he was on the council? Did it go on hiatus when Keane was robbing the bank?
Totally agree.
Quote from: TheCat on August 10, 2016, 12:52:37 PM"Any tax. Just pick one, for the love of god," Joost said. "Pick one and do it now. It's our responsibility to pay for it."
AMEN!
Sucks they didn't have the courage to stand up to the pension when they were on the council, but it doesn't make what they're saying less true. Bottom line, is, this shoves off a big problem on to posterity when there ARE options to solve this, right now.
^ To be fair, both men were in office when City Council voted to raise property taxes to address the expected budget shortfall a few years ago. Mayor Brown (and his no new taxes pledge) put us in a bad position and Council had to come in and do the right thing.
My fear is the same short-sightedness shown by Mayor Brown is now being shared by Mayor Curry and the entire Council!
Yeah I'm to the point where if they need to raise taxes to fix this stuff then just raise taxes and get it over with. Half penny sales tax, whatever, just get moving on it already.
Joost and Bishop were both part of the past generations of politicians that took pension payment holidays .... deferring current payments to boost current budgets.
How about we enforce mobility fees to address the strains the sprawling development is placing on our City's resources? Why don't we raise property taxes and start making payments now? The pension tax is a bad idea on its own and is only part of a larger solution.
I suspect in the coming weeks we will see even more reasonable fiscal conservatives come out in opposition to this plan.
You have to hand it to Curry's team for taking the Donald Trump approach to solving this problem. Lots of urgent toned rhetoric followed by so many non-explanations. Everything is urgent but there is literally no plan. It's all gimmick but without any infomercial intrigue.
QuoteJoost and Bishop
WHO?This is Bishop's latest attempt to
GET BACK INTO THE SPOTLIGHT, he's a blowhard and Jacksonville is not buying what he is selling. Joost would do well to distance himself from Bishop.
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 11, 2016, 08:11:01 AM
QuoteJoost and Bishop
WHO?
This is Bishop's latest attempt to GET BACK INTO THE SPOTLIGHT, he's a blowhard and Jacksonville is not buying what he is selling. Joost would do well to distance himself from Bishop.
So you are on board with this tax increase?
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 11, 2016, 08:11:01 AM
QuoteJoost and Bishop
WHO?
This is Bishop's latest attempt to GET BACK INTO THE SPOTLIGHT, he's a blowhard and Jacksonville is not buying what he is selling. Joost would do well to distance himself from Bishop.
Right. The only 'blowhard' that ran a campaign in the mayoral primary on a platform of, "we'll probably have to raise taxes'...
QuoteSo you are on board with this tax increase?
Yes, I think we should raise property taxes, our mill rate is so low, I've seen reports that we are the lowest if not close to the lowest rate in the State of Florida. The extension of the tax, regressive or progressive, may or may not stop the bleeding with the pension. Personally, to me, it kicks the can down the road, and lets the saps in 2 or 3 mayoral terms have to figure out WTF this administration was thinking when it proposed this Do or Die option.
For 4 long years, Mayor Brown cut, and cut and cut, but did nothing to try and add to the coffers. Yes, it was a recession, but the govt does not stop providing services when people need it the most. The JSO lost a lot of good people, and they are now working to get back to a higher level of service. They are not perfect, but they need more people and pay a better rate to be competitive in the state. I believe Williams should get all that he is asking for in the budget, same with JFRD. You cannot put a price on public safety when life is on the line.
Ron Littlepage has had some good arguments about Property taxes and why services are so low in Jacksonville:
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2016-06-10/story/ron-littlepage-our-citys-obsession-cheap-property-taxes (http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2016-06-10/story/ron-littlepage-our-citys-obsession-cheap-property-taxes)
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2016-07-26/story/ron-littlepage-low-taxes-have-hurt-jacksonville (http://jacksonville.com/opinion/ron-littlepage/2016-07-26/story/ron-littlepage-low-taxes-have-hurt-jacksonville)
A one mill increase would cost that homeowner a little under $70 a year — or about 19 cents a day. Even a one mill increase would produce $50 million in revenue, money that could be used now to begin paying down the pension debt. I can afford $70 a year to help take care of more officers, more fire personnel, and start paying off our debt now!
No one likes to pay more taxes, but if you get more services out of it and your quality of life improves, I am all for it.
From Susie Wiles, in response to Joost and Bishop.
Former City Council Presidents endorse County Referendum No.1
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Susie Wiles
August 11, 2016 (904)502-7100
JACKSONVILLE, Fla – Today, former Jacksonville City Council Presidents offered their endorsement for County Referendum No.1 – Yes for Jacksonville.
Former City Council Presidents endorsing the plan include Richard Clark, Daniel Davis, Bill Gulliford, Kevin Hyde and Jack Webb
The former Council Presidents join a large and growing group of Jacksonville leaders who recognize that Mayor Curry's plan is the best solution for Jacksonville. Failing to address this problem in a way that guarantees that money raised will be solely dedicated to reducing the unfunded liability means financial instability for years to come. Our City deserves better.
Their statement follows:
"As former Presidents of the Jacksonville City Council, we know all too well the financial challenges that the City of Jacksonville has faced over the last decade. Each of us has faced the challenges presented by this large – and growing – unfunded liability.
There are no easy answers and there is no perfect solution.
The legal and political difficulties that have plagued every potential solution to this issue have been numerous; making most options not viable.
After years of working to reform benefits with the City's unions, it is time to tackle the remaining issue: unfunded pension liability.
County Referendum Number 1 provides further reform, closes the funds that got us in to this mess and provides a dedicated revenue source to pay down the unfunded liabilities. We have evaluated other options for a "fix" and we are convinced that this plan, "Yes for Jacksonville" is the most equitable and predictable solution We urge residents of Duval County to vote yes on August 30th and put this issue in our rearview mirror".
Nice statement though not all factual.
Quote
County Referendum Number 1 provides further reform, closes the funds that got us in to this mess and provides a dedicated revenue source to pay down the unfunded liabilities. We have evaluated other options for a "fix" and we are convinced that this plan, "Yes for Jacksonville" is the most equitable and predictable solution We urge residents of Duval County to vote yes on August 30th and put this issue in our rearview mirror".
I doesn't provide reform, it suggests reform. It doesn't close those funds, it can only be used IF at least one of those funds is closed. None of that is set yet and I can't see where there is any guarantee these reforms will happen.
And lastly, it doesn't put anything in our rear view mirror, rather, it hangs it out in front of us and it will come crashing down on the next generation's heads.
Bishop and Joost are good people, but this tax extension needs to go through, then Curry needs to rally the city and look to pass the additional 1 mil in property taxes, because the city needs the revenue of $50 million a year NOW, for infrastructure and services. Forget using the mil to pay for the pension, use the new money to go back into investing in the city.
Bishop wants to raise property taxes to pay for the Pension. Joost has no plan offered publicly. Why they come out 2 weeks before the vote?
^ I agree that the City needs additional revenue now. But Curry has no intention of raising property taxes. He has said as much.
It's this simple for me - If you're not willing to consider all options, you won't earn my vote.