Metro Jacksonville

A recent piece in the Toronto Star discusses the ongoing battle in Toronto over dedicated streetcar lanes and their impact on neighbourhoods.

Recent issues of Folio, The Florida Times-Union and Metro Blogs/Forums have seen many writers and bloggers come forward with plans for heritage trolleys, modern streetcars or light rail on Jacksonville's main east west corridor â€" Water Street, Newnan, Beaver or Duval from the Transportation Center to the Stadiums or Phillip Randolph.

I believe that the plans we've presented for JACKSONVILLE TRACTION COMPANY, INC. are affordable, efficient and most of all, will have a great impact on surrounding neighbourhoods. Here's why:


1. Cost.
A 'rapid streetcar' using heritage trolleys or a mix of heritage and modern streetcar vehicles is much cheaper to build than a full LRT system. JTA studied an LRT system, which, of course, is much cheaper than a subway.

The rapid streetcar concept takes the same features of light rail â€" speed, attractiveness, permanent tracks which draw large private investment and dedicated lanes â€" but uses slightly smaller vehicles and doesn't require massive relocation of underground services due to the lighter vehicles.


2. Dedicated lanes, but not walls, curbs and obstacles.
A streetcar plan such as the one proposed to run both ways Water Street would see streetcars in their own lane, but would still allow cars to make left turns at most streets and cross the tracks easily and safely. The raised curbs that are a feature of some streetcar lines are rather clumsy obstacles for pedestrians, cyclists and vehicles.

In Portland or most European cities with streetcars it is common to see street parking on the "other side" of the tracks against the curb as well as pedestrians crossing the tracks with their groceries or cyclists crossing the tracks as necessary.

Obviously the train has the right of way, but we aren't talking about a bullet train speeding along killing people. Streetcars are designed to fit perfectly in the urban environment, not act as obstacles.

Streetcars blend into the cityscape. Feel like jaywalking, crossing the tracks on your bike or dropping someone off? Make sure no train is coming and go for it. In fact Jacksonville Traction's own unique heritage is very similar to that of New Orleans. Streetcars operate in center medians and the track is sodded over. The addition of plantings, trees and shrubs once gained us fame as "The most beautiful streetcar line in the world."

More photos here:http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t103.html
Note â€" the above photos from Portland show a streetcar that uses the same lanes as cars. Regardless, a double solid yellow line and signage would allow the same design to be used with a system using dedicated lanes. So traffic lane or historic style median, No curbs required.


3. Neighbourhood/retail impact
Let's be brutally honest here. Downtown is a shell of what it used to be and what it could be. In Jacksonville, some shopkeepers feel that the senseless demolition of historic buildings, parking meters with a Gestapo-like control, and endless moonscapes of blank walls, or empty lots packed with the homeless have resulted in bad news for business in the area that always seemed to bustle with activity.

In Jacksonville, six and eight-lane freeways, sprawl, parking meters, broken or inconsistent sidewalks, one way streets and timed lights have killed once-booming retail streets. We have parking coming out of our backsides, but few customers and many less shops, restaurants, hotel rooms or clubs than there should be.

Streetcars-in-lane might slow down the vehicle traffic on Water. Parking would be retained as-is on the edge of the business core and folks could easily turn onto and off of side streets to find curbside parking.

More importantly, people and businesses would begin to show up in large numbers as a result of the streetcar line. The line shown in Portland in the photos above has seen $1.5 billion in private investment within a five minute walk of the tracks since opening.

Another or central corridor down Duval Street has many underused lots and buildings and plans for a massive courthouse complex. A streetcar along with a more pedestrian-friendly environment (think trees and benches along the entire corridor) would revitalize the uptown neighbourhoods that have been ignored for too long. In effect pulling the City both along the river and moving it inland.

LRT which JTA once studied, spaces stops apart quite far. A rapid streetcar would take a medium approach, having stops spaced out further than a typical bus route, but not as great a distance as with LRT.


4. Transportation options
Even though walking or cycling aren't directly mentioned as a benefit of a streetcar, they are natural byproducts of this project. Right now people have one realistic option for traversing our Streets â€" their car. Streetcars still allow for vehicle lanes, but having lights controlled for the streetcars instead of autos would make it quicker to get from downtown to Union Station-Transportation Center to the core or stadiums in the streetcar. Streetcars can discharge or pick up passengers in the median, since they have doors on both sides. The operator simply makes certain there is no oncoming car or traffic and can open doors left or right, thus there is no need to eat up curb space such as JTA'S proposed downtown transit mall.

Furthermore, balancing the transportation modes on our city streets will automatically result in more cyclists and pedestrians. Cyclists would feel safer to ride their bikes on a normal city street whereas right now downtown streets are not much different than I-95. More shops, condos, restaurants, clubs and hotels and streetcar users means more people getting on and off trains, running errands, going out for coffee or just walking the dog.

Jacksonville would start to look like a proper, urban downtown once again. Public art, benches, trees, flowers, patios and sidewalk displays would turn an empty, concrete canyon into a wonderful blend for local residents and visitors.

Ocklawaha
JTA? Pick up your phone!

Can you post a map of your preferred starter line?

Also, I think it time for us to change our discussion points about rail-based mass transit.  I think we know the benefits in regards to having an alternative transit choice, its reliability, stimulating economic development and rail costing less to build and maintain than dedicated busways.

I think its time we start focusing on how to immediately fund a starter line without waiting 5, 10, 15 to 20 years on countless studies, FTA funding or immediate tax increases.

TYPICAL SECTION

CONCEPT LINES:
Starter in BLACK
Extensions in RED

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/JacksonvilleTRACTIONCOREandExtensio.png)

See http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/
For Slide Show and more graphics

Ocklawaha

So, who's doing those fancy sketchup models?

It's a combined effort of Trolley Nuts, Cities, friends, and my friendly photobucket...Hee Hee

Ocklawaha

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 14, 2008, 03:17:55 PM
It's a combined effort of Trolley Nuts, Cities, friends, and my friendly photobucket...Hee Hee

Ocklawaha

Good images...

Great article!  I've only lived in this city for a year, and already am discouraged by the lack of leadership in city government and lack of initiative to be progressive and forward thinking.  Why must Jacksonville always be a step behind?  In times of economic slowdown, a city can not afford to sit back and relax.  It must work more quickly and even harder to find ways to continue moving forward.  Let's stop pumping millions of dollars into more freeways and start expanding mass transit.  I love the ideas being generated on this site.  Too bad the people who are supposed to be leading this city and it's transit system aren't listening.

Brainstormer, we'll either get them to listen and hop along for the ride, or they'll be pulled kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

One of the reasons, the skyway struggles to attract riders, is because it does not stretch into neighboring urban communities.

Ock, what's the benefit of a figure 8 starter only circling downtown, as opposed to taking a leg out of the figure 8 to make sure the starter stretches into Five Points or Springfield?  Wouldn't stretching it out cost the same amount of money and track, yet hit popular spots like Five Points, instead of circling around dead zones like LaVilla?

Wouldn't LaVilla be an area that would have the most potential for private growth?  I like your point about extending to 5 points right away because so many people live there and it is a destination area, but I wouldn't cut LaVilla out completely.  All of those overgrown lots are just waiting for a reason to be developed...or at least I hope they are.

I wouldn't cut LaVilla out, but if I had lets say... $30 million to invest in a "starter" line, I'd favor it going to Five Points over LaVilla.  Whatever, private growth you would get out of LaVilla could be doubled in Brooklyn between the Jax terminal/downtown and Five Points because it covers more land and the available land isn't already spoken for (try buying land in LaVilla...most of it isn't for sell).  After all, you can always expand into LaVilla with a future addition.  Plus you connect the popular destinations at the end points.  For a starter, whatever the path is chosen, it was to be a proven winner that goes where people want to go.  Excluding the courthouse site (which is a block away from the Skyway's Hemming Plaza station), I don't think there's much reason to go into what's left of LaVilla these days.

Yes, and theres a larger group of peeps that would congregate in 5-points to catch it. Good Eye

QuoteOck, what's the benefit of a figure 8 starter only circling downtown, as opposed to taking a leg out of the figure 8 to make sure the starter stretches into Five Points or Springfield?  Wouldn't stretching it out cost the same amount of money and track, yet hit popular spots like Five Points, instead of circling around dead zones like LaVilla?

Certainly no startup line MUST be the figure 8 as shown. Consider the simple "I" on Water Street or a reversed "Z" of Water-Newnan-Beaver.

I concur with everyone that IF we can get the funding, we could and should build both the basic line and the two end extensions Riverside and Springfield at the same time. San Marco should follow as soon as we know what the overpass-underpass situation could be with San Marco or Hendricks. Certainly no deal for FEC commuter rail will happen without one of the other being covered. The railroad AND city have been sued over this danger zone since at least 1925.

The key to any good Transit network is get the core system up and running. We need the car barn/museum online, the mechanics and restoration shop up to speed. With the core "8" in place the extensions could be added with almost zero changes in service downtown. With bi-directional streets, double track or center line running, it would be a snap to branch out from such a dense core. So from an operations guy standpoint, picking up a zillion workers at the new Courthouse site and taking them to Jefferson Street Skyway or the Landing, connecting city hall and Hemming Plaza with the Florida Theater and Stadiums gives us a much more balanced system to use as a development tool then just a riverfront strip.

I think going for the whole 8 + is the way to shoot for this, the advantages:

Opportunity to place a museum near I-95 exit in LaVilla
Operations continue through further construction Water Street line is up first, putting us on the tourist map - plus a lead to the barn
Bi directional or single directional possibilities
twin lines to the Randolph Entertainment District would enhance the professional franchises/venues.
Opportunity to link with Union Station
Seamless link to Springfield and to Riverside

My ultimate goals for trolley?
RIVERSIDE: PARK-KING-ST. JOHNS-HERSCHELL-SAN JUAN all the way to San Juan at CSX/Roosevelt
RIVERSIDE: King CSX to St. Vincents
FAIRFIELD-RANDOLPH: Full length of Phillip Randolph-First-NS RR-Greenway-Gateway Mall
SPRINGFIELD: Up Newnan jog to Main-8th-Blvd-return on Laura, Davis or Pearl
St. Johns River Crossing
SAN MARCO: Prudential to San Marco to Atlantic to Hendricks to Prudential looper
SAN JOSE: To University
SAINT NICHOLAS: Hendricks to Atlantic to BEACHS (LRT)

It will be an interesting battle...[/color][/b]

Ocklawaha
http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/

I think a starter line running from Springfield to the downtown core and then to the Sports/Entertainment district would be beneficial.  The transit line from Springfield would attract much needed retail/residential/commercial business to Springfield.   

Thanks and welcome aboard alta. Funny thing is after meeting with Lakelander and the MJ boys all had the same feelings on the figure 8... WHY? Why not just strike out for the burbs... Then I went home to do some more soul searching and checked out the plan for the new CINCINNATI STREETCAR PROJECT. Well as you can see from the image, I about fell out of my chair laughing...I mean? How weird is this?

See y'all, I'm not nearly as crazy as you thought I was, hell it's worse then that! It's all of us streetcar types!

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/streetcar_routeCincinnati-1.gif)

OCKLAWAHA

JTA? Don't forget, I have the funding concepts in my pocket... Streetcars? Pick up the phone, we need to talk business. No one has ever tried this method, but I have checked every angle, we would be a world trend setter and leader. Imagine a concept so novel that the streetcar line or company is making big dollars before the first car runs down the line? Crazy? Federal input? ZERO! Do it ourselves and do it now...We better talk.

Ocklawaha

I don't know if you remember me from the Kent Campus BRT meeting.   brought up the Austin lr system

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 15, 2008, 12:38:35 AM
Thanks and welcome aboard alta. Funny thing is after meeting with Lakelander and the MJ boys all had the same feelings on the figure 8... WHY? Why not just strike out for the burbs... Then I went home to do some more soul searching and checked out the plan for the new CINCINNATI STREETCAR PROJECT. Well as you can see from the image, I about fell out of my chair laughing...I mean? How weird is this?

See y'all, I'm not nearly as crazy as you thought I was, hell it's worse then that! It's all of us streetcar types!

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/streetcar_routeCincinnati-1.gif)

OCKLAWAHA

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/rust_belt/cincinnati/OTR-1.jpg)
Example of neighborhood density immediately adjacent to Downtown Cincinnati (literally across the street).

The major difference is Cincinnati is dense.  Neighborhoods like Over-The-Rhine are directly adjacent to downtown.  LaVilla is dead man's zone with no real possibility of massive urban redevelopment unless half the recent suburban office development is torn down....which won't be happening anytime soon.  So with us, the figure 8 wasn't the issue, the burned out landscape was.  So if the LaVilla line of the eight became a second phase, that would allow the "starter" to be extended to Five Points (a place where people want to go) and immediately encourage redevelopment in Brooklyn, thus merging the two (Five Points/Riverside & Downtown) together.  Then as rail based development catches on, a line into LaVilla (hopefully by this time the city has its act together) can be added, completing that figure 8.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 15, 2008, 12:45:17 AM
JTA? Don't forget, I have the funding concepts in my pocket... Streetcars? Pick up the phone, we need to talk business. No one has ever tried this method, but I have checked every angle, we would be a world trend setter and leader. Imagine a concept so novel that the streetcar line or company is making big dollars before the first car runs down the line? Crazy? Federal input? ZERO! Do it ourselves and do it now...We better talk.

Ocklawaha

I suppose you could always call them...communication works both ways!

Been there done that.... Balls in JTA's court.  

Ocklawaha

When I drive in LaVilla I still see acres of empty space, and the potential of a few abandoned buildings and the rare historical building. That could only equal one thing with streetcar, the chance to prove the technology by fostering Bay Street Station - like development throughout the district. In effect turning all of LaVilla into one giant construction zone considering the streetcar and Courthouse could be going in at roughly the same times.

Streetcars are the economic development engine of cities of the future â€" Higher property values, the number of building permits issued near streetcar routes and related job creation are measures of economic development. The first leg of the Tampa streetcar system cost $56 million. However, Tampa reported $1 billion of economic development attributable to the streetcar â€" a 1,000 percent return on this project’s investment of $56 million. Little Rock 920% and Portland is now at $3 Billion.

Other measures â€" Other less tangible indicators of success for a streetcar system will include the increased vibrancy of the LaVilla-Downtown-Randolph areas â€" for example, if it attracts more employees and residents or sports fans or results in economic advantages over surrounding urban areas. Some of these factors can be measured by population or sales tax revenue growth, but are not as easily directly attributed solely to the streetcar. While the Court is still in session on this plan, I certainly do support the extensions South and North.  

Ocklawaha

I don't care how many street cars and trolleys you build, no one wants to live in the lavilla desert.  Its unfortunate that all the housing was torn down, but its gone.  Your much better off trying to go south across the river to brooklyn and riverside and north along main.  The city screwed up lavilla and basically killed it for the next generation or two

QuoteWhen I drive in LaVilla I still see acres of empty space, and the potential of a few abandoned buildings and the rare historical building. That could only equal one thing with streetcar, the chance to prove the technology by fostering Bay Street Station - like development throughout the district. In effect turning all of LaVilla into one giant construction zone considering the streetcar and Courthouse could be going in at roughly the same times.

Looks can be deceiving, which is why its always good to take a look at the property appraiser's site, as well.  Unfortunately, Most of LaVilla is all peice mealed with additional parcels already called for, for more suburban type development (for example, Pappas has another block intended for a third office building of his, with surface parking).   Without a complete makerover, a streetcar will have less effect there than it would in Brooklyn, where there are already significant developments planned and bunch of major corporate office buildings a three block walk away from Park Street.  Then on top of that, you still have Five Points as a major anchor to the South.  Ridership and development potential will certainly be higher.  When I get back to town, lets take a Saturday and tour both to compare notes.

QuoteStreetcars are the economic development engine of cities of the future â€" Higher property values, the number of building permits issued near streetcar routes and related job creation are measures of economic development. The first leg of the Tampa streetcar system cost $56 million. However, Tampa reported $1 billion of economic development attributable to the streetcar â€" a 1,000 percent return on this project’s investment of $56 million. Little Rock 920% and Portland is now at $3 Billion.

No disagreement here.  However, you can't spur growth if the guys in those suburban office park buildings with blocks of surface parking won't give their lots up.  Long term, the area has potential, but the neighborhood south of McCoys Creek has more short term potential, plus it allows residents in an area outside of downtown to use the initial phase for commuting purposes as well.  So a "starter" could tap in to an exisiting urban residential population, immediately connect downtown workers, visitors and conventioneers to Jacksonville's most popular urban nightlife and dining spot, plus spur redevelopment in Brooklyn.  You simply can't get all those things immediately with an initial line running only in downtown (especially LaVilla).

QuoteOther measures â€" Other less tangible indicators of success for a streetcar system will include the increased vibrancy of the LaVilla-Downtown-Randolph areas â€" for example, if it attracts more employees and residents or sports fans or results in economic advantages over surrounding urban areas.

The same can be said for Brooklyn, except its not an IF.  It already has residents, a popular urban district and a couple of major companies with thousands of employees within walking distance of the line.  Plus, the FDOT is currently setting up Forest Street to be the new gateway into the Downtown core.  It would be a pretty powerful image to see rail transit spurring development around the first stoplight one reaches after exiting I-10 and I-95.

QuoteSome of these factors can be measured by population or sales tax revenue growth, but are not as easily directly attributed solely to the streetcar. While the Court is still in session on this plan, I certainly do support the extensions South and North.

Support the Figure 8 becoming a "T" with an "L" stretching from Newnan to Five Points.  Giving the city's set up, it will be much more popular initially.  Then in the future, you can complete the figure 8 through LaVilla as an extension to spur development in no man's land. ;D

Civil, thanks for the input and a belated welcome aboard to you. I agree that the City did a horrible thing in LaVilla. I don't know who pushed tearing down things like the old freight station or the bordello district but there should be a special heated corner of hell waiting for them.

If we go ahead and dump the one-way grid, then the North line becomes less urgent, but as-is, there has to be a return route from the Stadium all the way to Lee, in order to turn South into Riverside. It MUST pass the Union Station, it MUST have access to both Randolph and Springfield. The only street that qualifys is Duval. If the carline is Bi-directional then the upper line might wait to close the loop until the others are up and runni, ng.

It won't be the same Jacksonville with streetcar in downtown, we will be the development grounds of Florida.
La Villa and all the other locales will change veryquickly. A couple of nice condo projects and Bay Street Station and heck, I'd move there tomorrow.

One last thought, "why not Bay?" In the original streetcar plan of 1980 we called for the same basic loop using Water and Bay and a bit of "Riverfront Trolley". Jake would have nothing to do with us. So we got a "FREE" Skyway. Bay rightfully belongs to the Skyway plan. Wanna keep the NFL? FINISH the Skyway to STADIUM STATION!

Ocklawaha

If we go ahead and dump the one-way grid, then the North line becomes less urgent, but as-is, there has to be a return route from the Stadium all the way to Lee, in order to turn South into Riverside. It MUST pass the Union Station, it MUST have access to both Randolph and Springfield. The only street that qualifys is Duval. If the carline is Bi-directional then the upper line might wait to close the loop until the others are up and runni, ng.[/quote]

How about a single line with passing sidings, as opposed to a one way loop?  Wouldn't a one-way loop be similar to Detroit's peoplemover?  What happens if I want to hop on the streetcar to go in the other direction four blocks? 

QuoteOne last thought, "why not Bay?" In the original streetcar plan of 1980 we called for the same basic loop using Water and Bay and a bit of "Riverfront Trolley". Jake would have nothing to do with us. So we got a "FREE" Skyway. Bay rightfully belongs to the Skyway plan. Wanna keep the NFL? FINISH the Skyway to STADIUM STATION!

Btw, they were talking about us on 1460am this morning.  Radiotalkshowhost had Bob Harms on today.  He spent about 15 minutes or so talking about streetcars, commuter rail and the S-Line and how it would be a priority for him to see those things done, if he got elected.

Quote

QuoteWouldn't LaVilla be an area that would have the most potential for private growth?  I like your point about extending to 5 points right away because so many people live there and it is a destination area, but I wouldn't cut LaVilla out completely.  All of those overgrown lots are just waiting for a reason to be developed...or at least I hope they are.

QuoteI wouldn't cut LaVilla out, but if I had lets say... $30 million to invest in a "starter" line, I'd favor it going to Five Points over LaVilla.  Whatever, private growth you would get out of LaVilla could be doubled in Brooklyn between the Jax terminal/downtown and Five Points because it covers more land and the available land isn't already spoken for (try buying land in LaVilla...most of it isn't for sell).

I think we're all in agreement, the LaVilla question could be settled by the time this moves foward, start the Courthouse and Bay Street Station and the $$$$ signs will change the entire development picture of the downtown core, 5-Points, Randolph etc...

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteHow about a single line with passing sidings, as opposed to a one way loop?  Wouldn't a one-way loop be similar to Detroit's peoplemover?  What happens if I want to hop on the streetcar to go in the other direction four blocks? 

QuoteQuote
One last thought, "why not Bay?" In the original streetcar plan of 1980 we called for the same basic loop using Water and Bay and a bit of "Riverfront Trolley". Jake would have nothing to do with us. So we got a "FREE" Skyway. Bay rightfully belongs to the Skyway plan. Wanna keep the NFL? FINISH the Skyway to STADIUM STATION!

Btw, they were talking about us on 1460am this morning.  Radiotalkshowhost had Bob Harms on today.  He spent about 15 minutes or so talking about streetcars, commuter rail and the S-Line and how it would be a priority for him to see those things done, if he got elected.

The one-way grid would be great for operations, but sucks for marketing types. Your right of course that a line with passing sidings or some double track (Water St.?) would make a huge difference. Any chance that HARMS will get in? Odds anyone? Perhaps we should give him a call...or invite.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 15, 2008, 09:41:11 AM
Been there done that.... Balls in JTA's court.  

Ocklawaha

well then, they must not be interested in your proposal...stop asking them to call...and just move on with it yourself!

My, my, did someone miss his fruitloops this morning? Consider who we are dealing with here, sometimes things have to be...

how to say this...

"Explain it as you would to a child..."  

OCKLAWAHA

I'm glad you are sticking with your figure 8 OCKLAWAHA.  When it comes to development in LaVilla, isn't there a planning and development committee that approves all projects before they are built?  How about a vision for the area that is more creative and dense than the one story buildings with huge parking lots.  I know it is a lot to ask of our city leaders but perhaps we can set stricter guidelines for development in the area.  Set the bar a little higher and say no to projects that don't meet qualifications of the vision.  If we get the Bay Street Station up and running there will be competition for housing developments in and around LaVilla.  It will be worthwhile to go vertical and not horizontal.

Quote from: brainstormer on July 15, 2008, 05:09:30 PM
I'm glad you are sticking with your figure 8 OCKLAWAHA.  When it comes to development in LaVilla, isn't there a planning and development committee that approves all projects before they are built?  How about a vision for the area that is more creative and dense than the one story buildings with huge parking lots.  I know it is a lot to ask of our city leaders but perhaps we can set stricter guidelines for development in the area.  Set the bar a little higher and say no to projects that don't meet qualifications of the vision.  If we get the Bay Street Station up and running there will be competition for housing developments in and around LaVilla.  It will be worthwhile to go vertical and not horizontal.

We can do visions without first investing millions into no-man's land instead of in areas where there are higher ridership demands.  In fact, we can start the vision process with the Skyway.  Its been there for nearly 20 years and JTA still doesn't have a clue of how they want the thing to work in the future.  In the meantime, we can invest our mass transit dollars wisely to ramp up service immediately in areas the residents currently live and want to go.

Streetcar question for OCK

You mentioned that having a streetcar rail next to your commercial property increases it's value and attracts new lease tennants to buildings. Knowing that: retailers always want to know from a developer 1) the approximate traffic flow numbers expecation and 2) the number of parking spaces that will be made nearby, do you have any kind of formula as to how many parking spaces a streetcar would equal in a given area.

For example, I want to build a six-block 2 story mixed-use retail/enterainment facility with limited slanted parking on the street. Let's say the street car is already there and runs down the middle. What kind of numbers can I tell tennant prospects they can expect from it?

I'm sorry I just question the "build it and they will come" philosophy when its directed to mass transit.  Money is limited you need to use it wisely,  provide services to the more densly built areas.  Hopefully you can show a profit on that and then build out.  Theres very little to attraction to the lavilla area, other than the immediacy to I-95, that might be enough, but haven't seen much evidence of that in the past 10 years.

There is something that attracts developers to fixed guideway transit.  I would suggest you look at Portland, Tampa and even places such as Kenosha, WS and see what has happend around thier streetcar lines. Portland built their streetcar system through some areas that looked worse than Lavilla and now you wouldnt even recognize the same area.  The same could happen for Jacksonville. Yes, the economy is bad and the world is coming to end (if you read some of the other postings on this site) but now is the time to plan, so that when things swing the other way we are ready to build.

I would argue an example of the "build it and they will come" is our very own Southbank.  I believe this portion of the skyway was only finished within the past 10 years and now look at the housing and retail investment with easy skyway access; The Strand, Peninsula, San Marco condos and soon the huge Kings Station complex.  It didn't happen right away, but having the skyway already in place certainly adds to the quality of the area.

Your right, obviously all the development with the magnificent river view, during a housing bubble, was driven by a connector than can get you to the federal building quicker. 

Yes, Kings Avenue Station will have a beautiful view of the river...I mean I 95. 

okay explain to me how a station that links to basically to hemming plaza and the fed building, inspired companies to invest mulimillions dollar investments.

Or even better yet contact the developers and ask them why they selected the sites.  Did in fact the station stp enter into there calculations.  Should be easy to dio

Quote from: fsujax on July 17, 2008, 07:52:49 AM
There is something that attracts developers to fixed guideway transit.  I would suggest you look at Portland, Tampa and even places such as Kenosha, WS and see what has happend around thier streetcar lines. Portland built their streetcar system through some areas that looked worse than Lavilla and now you wouldnt even recognize the same area.  The same could happen for Jacksonville. Yes, the economy is bad and the world is coming to end (if you read some of the other postings on this site) but now is the time to plan, so that when things swing the other way we are ready to build.

All of the named cities above where streetcars were added did not add the initial line only in wastelands like LaVilla. They also connected riders to popular destinations where people already wanted to go.  For example, yes Tampa's streetcar spurred economic development in the Channel District, but that would have not happened if Ybor, the Aquarium, Cruise Port and Convention Center were not already in place.  We have limited dollars, if any.  There's no logical reason to take a streetcar north of Bay Street and west of Hogan, if it was to be done at the expense of an initial effort pushing a line from downtown into Riverside or Springfield.  I don't even see how "LaVilla vs Five Points first" is even a debate, if we really want a system to be highly successful from day one. 

Quote from: brainstormer on July 17, 2008, 09:20:07 PM
Yes, Kings Avenue Station will have a beautiful view of the river...I mean I 95. 

Kings Avenue is technically a TAD (Transit Adjacent Development).  Anyway, a not having to build parking and a good deal with JTA to lease the land underneath were probably larger influences on Kings Avenue being feasible, than the Skyway itself.  Neverthless, I'm happy to see it go up and I hope we can see more projects like this rise in the urban core.

QuoteStreetcar question for OCK

You mentioned that having a streetcar rail next to your commercial property increases it's value and attracts new lease tennants to buildings. Knowing that: retailers always want to know from a developer 1) the approximate traffic flow numbers expecation and 2) the number of parking spaces that will be made nearby, do you have any kind of formula as to how many parking spaces a streetcar would equal in a given area.

For example, I want to build a six-block 2 story mixed-use retail/enterainment facility with limited slanted parking on the street. Let's say the street car is already there and runs down the middle. What kind of numbers can I tell tennant prospects they can expect from it?

1. Traffic will grow in proportion to the development along the route, and the type of line chosen. For example, the Heritage Streetcar system, is the cheapest to build and can convert to modern streetcar or even LRT in some more expensive cases. Marketing estimates still hold at attracting some 500,000 per year. These are riders that will seek out the streetcar experience, with some transit in the mix.

2. Parking needs a complete re-making in downtown to make it viable again, free but somewhat less on street parking, sell the downtown lots for new commercial private sector use, drop the space requirement on any new building within the transit corridors IE: Skyway - Streetcar, Maintain a program of outlaying lots with ease of access.

Hope this gets it.  

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteThere is something that attracts developers to fixed guideway transit.  I would suggest you look at Portland, Tampa and even places such as Kenosha, WS and see what has happend around thier streetcar lines. Portland built their streetcar system through some areas that looked worse than Lavilla and now you wouldnt even recognize the same area.  The same could happen for Jacksonville. Yes, the economy is bad and the world is coming to end (if you read some of the other postings on this site) but now is the time to plan, so that when things swing the other way we are ready to build.

This is the truth, anyone in Portland BEFORE Light Rail can attest to the decay. I was just asked what I would see as the core line. Here's a breakdown.

The "8" which includes Duval - Lee - Beaver -Randolph and LaVilla is what I see as the core railroad. The car barn, key operation area, museum, shop, attraction (if possible)

The Riverside - Springfield - Stadium Lines are simply another couple of miles and are the key to the traffic on the line. It really would be tough to have one without the other. But I have no trouble in doing it all, as it's still quite small and would be inexpensive. I'd love to see us beat Birmingham. Of course we could have been the first of nearly 70 cities.  

OCKLAWAHA

QuoteThere is something that attracts developers to fixed guideway transit.  I would suggest you look at Portland, Tampa and even places such as Kenosha, WS and see what has happend around thier streetcar lines. Portland built their streetcar system through some areas that looked worse than Lavilla and now you wouldnt even recognize the same area.  The same could happen for Jacksonville. Yes, the economy is bad and the world is coming to end (if you read some of the other postings on this site) but now is the time to plan, so that when things swing the other way we are ready to build.

True, but much of the development in Portland was spurred more by the large subsidies handed out by the City rather than simply building the streetcar line.

Portland did indeed build a package for developers, certainly nothing we couldn't do if we had the will. It's almost like, "Hey, this is FLORIDA, we don't need to work for a living..." But the bottom line, and PORTLAND says so, is that the streetcar was the string used to tie the pearls together. Once they lgot it up and going the race was on. Kenosha, home of a defunct AMC plant and a bedroom community for Chicago, didn't have such lofty toys or money, yet they still got the race to develop. Just something about a streetcar line.  

OCKLAWAHA

Its fixed transit in general.  Austin is already reaping the economic development benefits of their 32 mile commuter rail line and it won't even be operational until later this year.  Charlotte is also enjoying tons of economic development that has been attracted to certain areas of town, primarily because of their new light rail line.

In this aspect, fixed rail transit is no different from spending money to construct new roads in the suburbs.  Both spur economic development.  However, rail is cheaper, safer for the environment, takes up less land and encourages dense, compact and walkable growth.  Roads and highways do the exact opposite.  So it really boils down to what type of city do we want.  Do we want an environment where residents have options like San Diego, Portland and Boston or do we want to be the next Orlando, Phoenix and Raleigh, places where we spend our free time stuck in traffic jams in sprawled areas that look like Anyplace USA?