I've read too many articles from the Times-Union describing charters as public schools who aren't accountable to the school board. Well, I hate to break it to you, but by definition if you're not controlled by a public body and raise money independent of the district, you're not a public school. Not to mention many non profit charter schools are run by for profit entities made up of the same employees as the non profit. These organizations have already contributed over $343,000 to politicians in Florida so far this cycle. Public schools are obviously not allowed to spend money on political donations. As a local example, uncontested school board incumbent and candidate Cheryl Grymes has received 46% of her campaign contributions, almost $9000, from charter school companies or their executives, and sees nothing wrong with that. She says she's going to donate the money to "her schools." I wonder if she means the public or private variety.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2016-08-02/story/charter-school-industry-donations-prompt-questions-millions-flow-pacs
They are accountable to the District in compliance measures like any school. They just have more freedom on issues of curriculum. Charters actually get .75 cents on the dollar that neighborhood schools get. They have to preference neighborhood students. Some are bad, and should be shut down. Others are good, and should be replicated. That is the interesting aspect of the system.
If they're "NOT public schools", what are they? That implies they're private, and that's not true either. They're (largely) funded by public money and operate by contract with the school board, based on a lot of the same measures as regular schools. Private schools don't do that. Also unlike private schools they also have a lot less say in which students get to enroll. The closest thing would be public-private partnership, to borrow a phrase from Alvin Brown.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2016, 09:42:53 AM
If they're "NOT public schools", what are they? That implies they're private, and that's not true either. They're (largely) funded by public money and operate by contract with the school board, based on a lot of the same measures as regular schools. Private schools don't do that. Also unlike private schools they also have a lot less say in which students get to enroll. The closest thing would be public-private partnership, to borrow a phrase from Alvin Brown.
Maybe they're the school equivalent of a protist.
Quote from: FlaBoy on August 03, 2016, 09:35:17 AM
They are accountable to the District in compliance measures like any school. They just have more freedom on issues of curriculum. Charters actually get .75 cents on the dollar that neighborhood schools get. They have to preference neighborhood students. Some are bad, and should be shut down. Others are good, and should be replicated. That is the interesting aspect of the system.
I'd refer to them as private nonprofit schools, not public. Beyond the initial contract signed with the school board, they are not subject to board oversight. In fact, charters are exempt from most state statutes governing public schools. See this FAQ from the FDOE. http://www.fldoe.org/schools/school-choice/charter-schools/charter-school-faqs.stml
I can agree my argument is mostly over semantics. I just don't appreciate schools which are run by private entities, oftentimes for profit, being included with truly public schools. It skews the conversation.
Quoteby definition if you're not controlled by a public body and raise money independent of the district, you're not a public school.
1.) Charter schools are paid for with vouchers funded by taxpayers. That is literally the definition of a public entity.
2.) Wrapping paper, bake sales, car washes, discount cards, PTSO, booster clubs... Do you have kids? If you do, then you know you get hit up to "raise money independent of the district" every two or three weeks.
3.) You are right that charters are not accountable to the same standards as regular district schools - they are accountable to higher standards. Not only must they meet the same minimum requirements of their district counterparts, but if the charter school does not out-perform the district school, they close down. Who would send their kid to a charter school if it wasn't a better alternative to the district school? Competition = higher standards.
QuoteThese organizations have already contributed over $343,000 to politicians in Florida so far this cycle. Public schools are obviously not allowed to spend money on political donations.
Public schools can't spend on political activity, but their employee unions can and WAY do. The NEA and NFT combine to spend more than a half of a billion dollars on lobbying and campaign contributions.
Quote1.) Charter schools are paid for with vouchers funded by taxpayers. That is literally the definition of a public entity.
So doctors paid with Medicaid dollars are public? Stores that accept food stamps? Mechanics who fix police cars? Receiving public money doesn't make you a public entity.
Quote2.) Wrapping paper, bake sales, car washes, discount cards, PTSO, booster clubs... Do you have kids? If you do, then you know you get hit up to "raise money independent of the district" every two or three weeks.
Yes I do have kids. And any parent with kids in private schools can tell you raising money for your kids' schools isn't unique to public ones.
Quote3.) You are right that charters are not accountable to the same standards as regular district schools - they are accountable to higher standards. Not only must they meet the same minimum requirements of their district counterparts, but if the charter school does not out-perform the district school, they close down. Who would send their kid to a charter school if it wasn't a better alternative to the district school? Competition = higher standards.
They are held to different standards, not necessarily higher, as you say. After the initial charter, they are not required to change their standards, either, as long as they're meeting the original.
QuotePublic schools can't spend on political activity, but their employee unions can and WAY do. The NEA and NFT combine to spend more than a half of a billion dollars on lobbying and campaign contributions.
Right. Nonprofit organizations organized under the 501(c) tax code. Not public entities.
Quote from: benmarcus on August 03, 2016, 09:45:13 AM
Quote from: FlaBoy on August 03, 2016, 09:35:17 AM
They are accountable to the District in compliance measures like any school. They just have more freedom on issues of curriculum. Charters actually get .75 cents on the dollar that neighborhood schools get. They have to preference neighborhood students. Some are bad, and should be shut down. Others are good, and should be replicated. That is the interesting aspect of the system.
I'd refer to them as private nonprofit schools, not public. Beyond the initial contract signed with the school board, they are not subject to board oversight. In fact, charters are exempt from most state statutes governing public schools. See this FAQ from the FDOE. http://www.fldoe.org/schools/school-choice/charter-schools/charter-school-faqs.stml
I can agree my argument is mostly over semantics. I just don't appreciate schools which are run by private entities, oftentimes for profit, being included with truly public schools. It skews the conversation.
They're certainly not private schools. Private schools have their own funding and operate independently of the county school board, which is not the case for charters. Unlike charters, private schools hire their own teachers, who don't need to be certified by the state. And probably most importantly, they can turn down applications, which is substantially more difficult for charter schools.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2016, 10:10:28 AM
They're certainly not private schools. Private schools have their own funding and operate independently of the county school board, which is not the case for charters. Unlike charters, private schools hire their own teachers, who don't need to be certified by the state. And probably most importantly, they can turn down applications, which is substantially more difficult for charter schools.
Again, I understand my argument is mostly semantics when it comes to the set definition of a private school in Florida and I absolutely understand charters are required to follow more regulations than a private school. A lot of progress has been made since the original school voucher program which just handed money out to private schools.
My point is, schools which CAN raise money independently of the school district, beyond an initial charter is NOT accountable on a day-to-day basis to a publicly elected board, and which can directly contribute money to political campaigns, should not be wrapped in with traditional public schools. I think it's disingenuous to the real situation.
Florida has about 500 charter schools affecting more than 200,000 children. Pushing charter schools on the children of Florida was one of the main goals of presidential candidate and former Florida governor, Jeb Bush – who also received millions of dollars from Bill Gates. In a 2007 editorial called "Charter Schools Run Wild," the St. Petersburg Times of Florida noted that in the state of Florida: "Those lobbyists, and an embarrassingly compliant state Department of Education, have turned charter education into a $560-million-a-year enterprise that is so immune to oversight that an Escambia school convicted of fraudulently using its students to work on road crews is still receiving tax money. A Pensacola school where not a single student has passed the state's standardized reading and math tests in four years is still receiving tax money. A Vero Beach school investigated twice for suspicion of cheating on standardized tests is still receiving tax money."
https://www.sptimes.com/2007/04/01/Opinion/Charter_schools_run_w.shtml
In 2011, the former director of Life Skills Center Charter School in Florida, John Wyche, was sentenced to serve more than six years in prison for misusing more than $750,000 in state education monies to sustain a failing apartment complex that he owned
In 2012, the former home of a shuttered charter school was auctioned off after Great Florida Bank won a $2.24 million foreclosure judgment. The Miami-Dade County School Board shut down the Balere Language Academy after parents complained of house parties with alcohol and other distasteful promotions.
https://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/blog/morning-edition/2012/12/charter-school-building-heads-to.html
In April 2014, the League of Women Voters of Florida issued a report on fraud of charter schools. The report was shocking. They found that while public schools spent more than 80% of their funds on classroom instruction, charter schools spent barely 40% on classroom instruction. Charter schools spent much less on teachers and much more on overhead costs, management and rental fees. Charter schools had a closure rate of 20% per year. Numerous members of the State legislature benefited directly or indirectly from charter school kickbacks.
https://origin.library.constantcontact.com/download/get/file/1103316066537-1070/LWV+Final+Report+Statewide+Study+1-3.pdf
Thus, how charter schools make a profit is by cutting teachers in half. No wonder charter school operators want to get rid of teachers unions!
In June 2014, an investigation by the Orlando Sun Sentinel found, "Unchecked charter-school operators are exploiting South Florida's public school system, collecting taxpayer dollars for schools that quickly shut down." How this scam works is that 56 South Florida charter schools were started and got a lot of public money. Then they closed leaving the local public school district to pick up the pieces. The scam artists included Charter Schools USA – an outfit we will talk more about when we get to Pennsylvania. The scams cost local public school districts more than one million dollars in lost funding.
Here are a couple of quotes from the article:
"It's almost mind-blowing what's going on," said Rosalind Osgood, a Broward School Board member. "They just get away with it."
"They're public schools in the front door; they're for-profit closed entities in the back door," said Kathleen Oropeza, who co-founded FundEducationNow.org, an education advocacy group based in Orlando. "There's no transparency; the public has no ability to see where the profits are, how the money is spent."
In August 2014, another Florida investigation of charter school operations found millions of taxpayer dollars misdirected from classrooms and students to management companies like charter school chain operator Charter Schools USA. Charter Schools USA uses tax-exempt bonds to build schools that it then rents to its affiliates- basically overcharging them by tens of millions of dollars in extra school rental charges that get passed on to the tax payers.
What Charter School USA does very well is provide campaign funding for State legislators. State records indicate Charter Schools USA spends nearly $2 million per year in bribes/lobbying to the State legislature and the State Governor.
https://www.wtsp.com/story/news/investigations/2014/08/21/charter-school-profits-on-real-estate/14420317/
(https://weaponsofmassdeception.org/images/3_charters/3.3_fraud/09.jpg)
This is what happens when the private sector is brought in to run something that should be public. Private prisons are another example.
Quote from: finehoe on August 03, 2016, 10:23:33 AM
"They're public schools in the front door; they're for-profit closed entities in the back door."
This quote sums up my entire argument.
Quote from: benmarcus on August 03, 2016, 10:26:09 AM
Quote from: finehoe on August 03, 2016, 10:23:33 AM
"They're public schools in the front door; they're for-profit closed entities in the back door."
This quote sums up my entire argument.
No one is saying all charter schools are good. But have you been to failing public schools recently? Think about the amounts of money wasted through the decades. You can point to an inputs problem but with Title I funding and other funding mechanisms, in Duval, a school like Jackson last year was getting double the money per pupil that Mandarin was getting.
The problem is the lack of flexibility in public school curriculum, hours, etc., and the enormous bureaucracy that are public schools in Florida. Again, are there some bad charters? Yes. Are some of the best schools in Florida charters? Yes. Are there really bad public schools? Yes. The difference? If a charter is a consistently failing school, you can shut it down. Believe me, after being a teacher for years on the Northwest side of Jacksonville, some shaking up is not a bad thing for the district and is a great thing for kids.
Charter schools are popular in FL because the school districts have been so disfunctional for decades. Locally, that's also why private schools and the bedroom counties have done so well: they're another option. I don't know what the solution is, but the status quo sure ain't it.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2016, 11:09:29 AM
Charter schools are popular in FL because the school districts have been so disfunctional for decades. Locally, that's also why private schools and the bedroom counties have done so well: they're another option. I don't know what the solution is, but the status quo sure ain't it.
Both Nassau and St. John's Counties public schools are two of the best districts in the state, and I grew up going to very well funded public schools in Chicagoland (which still regularly end up in rankings of top schools in the country). I know it can be done without turning to private organizations to run the schools. The solution is making sure kids have teachers who are paid well and held to high standards, and attend schools with up-to-date technology and infrastructure. The school board just made a 2% reduction in millage (amounting to a few bucks for homeowners but a lot of cash for the district) and then announced they can't afford to expand gifted programs like they want. This is just another example of trying to get good results on the cheap.
Quote from: stephendare on August 03, 2016, 12:06:40 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2016, 11:09:29 AM
Charter schools are popular in FL because the school districts have been so disfunctional for decades. Locally, that's also why private schools and the bedroom counties have done so well: they're another option. I don't know what the solution is, but the status quo sure ain't it.
the difference is socio economic. Private schools, even the ones with scholarships, tend to have wealthier families and more committed parents.
The answer to poor resources in public school isn't to siphon their money off.
That also sure aint working.
Possibly, but I'm not sure that's happening here. Plus, charter schools may be helping the county retain students who otherwise would go private or move out of the county. To my knowledge that hasn't been formally studied, but if charters help fight the flight, it could be a net gain for the district.
Quote from: benmarcus on August 03, 2016, 01:02:58 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2016, 11:09:29 AM
Charter schools are popular in FL because the school districts have been so disfunctional for decades. Locally, that's also why private schools and the bedroom counties have done so well: they're another option. I don't know what the solution is, but the status quo sure ain't it.
Both Nassau and St. John's Counties public schools are two of the best districts in the state, and I grew up going to very well funded public schools in Chicagoland (which still regularly end up in rankings of top schools in the country). I know it can be done without turning to private organizations to run the schools. The solution is making sure kids have teachers who are paid well and held to high standards, and attend schools with up-to-date technology and infrastructure. The school board just made a 2% reduction in millage (amounting to a few bucks for homeowners but a lot of cash for the district) and then announced they can't afford to expand gifted programs like they want. This is just another example of trying to get good results on the cheap.
Like I said, the successes in St. Johns County and the other bedroom counties is due almost entirely to the state of Duval County schools. These counties attract families where the parents work in Jacksonville but want better school options for their kids. It's classic white flight. I'm willing to bet that those top schools in Chicagoland have a similar relationship with the Chicago Public Schools district, which is similarly not known for high quality.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2016, 01:25:49 PM
Like I said, the successes in St. Johns County and the other bedroom counties is due almost entirely to the state of Duval County schools. These counties attract families where the parents work in Jacksonville but want better school options for their kids. It's classic white flight. I'm willing to bet that those top schools in Chicagoland have a similar relationship with the Chicago Public Schools district, which is similarly not known for high quality.
Believe it or not, my high school was, and still is, attended by students roughly 50% of whom are on reduced or free lunch. It's also about as racially diverse as you can imagine. The people in that community pay higher property taxes and it's clear the money is being put to good use. Chicago's main issue is the classic too many people, not enough homeowners, situation, combined with severe issues with accountability.
I agree some of it may be a result of "white flight," for surrounding counties, as much as I really dislike that term. St. Johns and Nassau both have slightly higher millage rates, as well. St. John's county charges the maximum allowed by state law.
Quote from: benmarcus on August 03, 2016, 01:43:52 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2016, 01:25:49 PM
Like I said, the successes in St. Johns County and the other bedroom counties is due almost entirely to the state of Duval County schools. These counties attract families where the parents work in Jacksonville but want better school options for their kids. It's classic white flight. I'm willing to bet that those top schools in Chicagoland have a similar relationship with the Chicago Public Schools district, which is similarly not known for high quality.
Believe it or not, my high school was, and still is, attended by students roughly 50% of whom are on reduced or free lunch. It's also about as racially diverse as you can imagine. The people in that community pay higher property taxes and it's clear the money is being put to good use. Chicago's main issue is the classic too many people, not enough homeowners, situation, combined with severe issues with accountability.
I agree some of it may be a result of "white flight," for surrounding counties, as much as I really dislike that term. St. Johns and Nassau both have slightly higher millage rates, as well. St. John's county charges the maximum allowed by state law.
White flight is the typical term for what's happening here. People, largely white and relatively affluent, moving farther out from the city to escape city problems. Living in St. Johns allows folks to take advantage of Duval County's jobs and infrastructure, while keeping their tax dollars in their own neighborhoods and school district. This is one reason Jacksonville benefits from sales taxes: a lot of it ends up getting paid by commuters.
St. Johns (and Clay and Nassau) have about the same school millage rate as Jacksonville, and have for years. The total millage rate in St. Johns is actually
lower than in Jacksonville. The difference is in their respective populations and what they have to spend their money on.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2016, 03:09:36 PM
St. Johns (and Clay and Nassau) have about the same school millage rate as Jacksonville, and have for years. The total millage rate in St. Johns is actually lower than in Jacksonville. The difference is in their respective populations and what they have to spend their money on.
School millage in St. John's is 7.228. It's 7.117 in Duval, set to go down 2%.
You are correct, however, there is more property ownership, proportionally.
Quote from: pierre on August 03, 2016, 10:25:43 AM
This is what happens when the private sector is brought in to run something that should be public. Private prisons are another example.
+1
Quote from: benmarcus on August 03, 2016, 03:14:53 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2016, 03:09:36 PM
St. Johns (and Clay and Nassau) have about the same school millage rate as Jacksonville, and have for years. The total millage rate in St. Johns is actually lower than in Jacksonville. The difference is in their respective populations and what they have to spend their money on.
School millage in St. John's is 7.228. It's 7.117 in Duval, set to go down 2%.
You are correct, however, there is more property ownership, proportionally.
Yes, exactly. The school millage is going down in St. Johns, too. I believe the reductions are mostly statewide and coming from the mandatory state collection, so I'm not sure how it will actually affect the budget. Either way, the difference isn't in the tax rate.
One thing that St. Johns does do is take money for new schools out of impact fees for new development. It's come back to bite them when growth slows down, but for now it's allowed them to greatly expand their system, which is their key attraction.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2016, 03:28:57 PM
One thing that St. Johns does do is take money for new schools out of impact fees for new development. It's come back to bite them when growth slows down, but for now it's allowed them to greatly expand their system, which is their key attraction.
Kind of off-topic but still relevant (though rhetorical) question: Why doesn't Jacksonville collect impact fees from developers? ::)
Quote from: Tacachale on August 03, 2016, 03:28:57 PM
Yes, exactly. The school millage is going down in St. Johns, too. I believe the reductions are mostly statewide and coming from the mandatory state collection, so I'm not sure how it will actually affect the budget. Either way, the difference isn't in the tax rate.
Ah, ok. Well I have an email in to my school board member and the superintendent for an answer about why there was a 2% reduction when there are copious spending needs. Have yet to receive a response, but that's good to know and may be the answer.