Downtown on the verge of a development boom?
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Construction-Update-July/i-b8jVtL6/0/L/DSCF1939-L.jpg)
So you think nothing is happening in downtown Jacksonville? If so, you should reconsider. Downtown is on the verge of its largest multi-family infill development boom in decades. 1,279 residential units could be under construction in the downtown proper by the end of the year. Moderncities.com takes a look at 8 downtown projects and few more options headed to the city's urban core.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2016-aug-downtown-on-the-verge-of-a-development-boom (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2016-aug-downtown-on-the-verge-of-a-development-boom)
Great article about residential development!
Wait, there are new apartments going in around JTB, are you sure you don't want to include the Southside with Downtown?
Downtown is Lavilla, Northbank, Brooklyn, Springfield, and well, downtown (32202). Its not fair to lump the southbank into this as it has a lot more progress and living towers. Great article, but why is Herschel/St. Johns added to this list? 4000 St Johns Avenue, Jacksonville, FL 32205 is almost 5 miles from each other. Again, why not add 5 more miles and you have JTB in the mix?
It would be far better to see more SFR in the downtown space. Lavilla and infill of more SFR, but no one wants to build these, its either a 250 unit building or nothing.
^The urban core is more than just the Northbank and Southbank. I generally refer to the core city as what's shown as the "old city" in this map below:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Jacksonville_divisions.png/1230px-Jacksonville_divisions.png)
This is the part of the city that was actually built at human scale and before autocentric growth engulfed Duval County after World War II. Here's a better map showing preconsolidated Jacksonville, which was largely built out before World War II:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6961-1937.jpg)
Although 8 of the 11 projects mentioned listed fall within the DIA's downtown boundaries, a few (East San Marco, Springfield Lofts, St. Johns Village) on the peripheral in adjacent historically pedestrian friendly neighborhoods are worth mentioning. A part literally separates Sprinfield Lofts from downtown and East San Marco is less than a walkable mile from the Southbank. St. Johns Village is further but is easily bikeable from Brooklyn and the Northbank. Nevertheless, subtract St. Johns Village, and you still end up with more units possibly breaking ground this year than what downtown has witnessed in decades.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2016, 07:40:21 AM
^The urban core is more than just the Northbank and Southbank. I generally refer to the core city as what's shown as the "old city" in this map below:
Although 8 of the 11 projects mentioned listed fall within the DIA's downtown boundaries, a few (East San Marco, Springfield Lofts, St. Johns Village) on the peripheral in adjacent historically pedestrian friendly neighborhoods are worth mentioning. A part literally separates Sprinfield Lofts from downtown and East San Marco is less than a walkable mile from the Southbank. St. Johns Village is further but is easily bikeable from Brooklyn and the Northbank. Nevertheless, subtract St. Johns Village, and you still end up with more units possibly breaking ground this year than what downtown has witnessed in decades.
Lake, all due... the title of the article is "Downtown is on the verge..." perhaps if this article really means to include the extended boundaries of the "Urban Core", the title of the article should be changed. I certainly wouldn't include Riverside as "downtown" and definitely not Avondale.
I think it's fine. The introduction also states it's showing examples of projects in the urban core. The inclusion of St Johns Village doesn't change what's happening in downtown. However, limiting things to the Northbank does not provide an accurate image of what's actually taking place in and around our central business district either.
To avoid further confusion, I went ahead and added up the combined units in the projects mentioned in the article and edited the introduction text to this:
So you think nothing is happening in downtown Jacksonville? If so, you should reconsider. Downtown is on the verge of its largest multi-family infill development boom in decades. 1,279 residential units could be under construction in the downtown proper by the end of the year. Moderncities.com takes a look at 8 downtown projects and few more options headed to the city's urban core.
I came up with 1,279 in downtown (Northbank, Southbank, Brooklyn) and 541 between St Johns Village, East San Marco and Springfield Lofts.
I, for one, am glad we're addressing the important aspect of this story.
What is downtown and not downtown is a matter of perspective. I live in Brooklyn and have no problem distinguishing between Riverside, La Villa, Springfield, Northbank, Southbank, and San Marco. On a pedestrian scale the boundaries are pretty clear and Jax's 5 skylines are pretty easy to identify - Southbank, Northbank, Brooklyn, Riverside, and whatever the area around UF Shands is called (not comfortable calling that Springfield's skyline). However, before I moved to Brooklyn from a home near St John's Town Center everything within 2 miles of the Main St bridge was downtown to me. My ex-wife still thinks I live downtown (because she lives life at the automobile scale). Most people don't distinguish between downtown and downtown-adjacent neighborhoods. I have a friend who works on the Southbank and even he thinks he works downtown.
Elena flats and Beaver street are well on their way and broadstone will hopefully go vertical soon.
If only half of the remaining projects get completed (which is still probably optimistic), I'd like to see East San Marco, 200 Riverside, lofts at La Villa, and FSCJ.
What remains most interesting to me is how simple connectivity between all of these seemingly disparate projects in the old city could make them so much more than the sum of their parts. Some of the projects are right along the Skyway (Lavilla Lofts, FSCJ Dorm and Cafe, etc.), but so many more are just outside of its reach and the potential synergy that connectivity could provide.
Find the money now, rather than 10 years from now, and prevent all of these emerging areas from turning into isolated stops for drivers and parkers. Can you imagine what a giant leap forward it would be for the entire urban core if we were to build a no-frills Skyway station in Brooklyn, expand service to the stadium district, and perhaps extend the southern line down into the District. Add a few shuttles or trolleys feeding Riverside/Avondale/San Marco residents onto the Skyway (along with First Coast Flyer passengers arriving at shiny new Regional Transportation Center), and all of a sudden, you go from a system that goes from "nowhere to nowhere" to a red hot, future-proof transit service that connects genuine population centers to genuine destinations and encourages infill everywhere in between.
It feels like something that should have already been happening yesterday. Transit seems like something that you just can't afford to be reactive, rather than proactive about. Brooklyn is exploding. Our new state-of-the-art Amphitheater and flex event space is going to bring up to 100 events downtown each year, with Shad Khan already publicly stating that he's planning further development in the area. The District is set to break ground by year's end. Progress on the Shipyards, U.S.S Adams, and Doro/Iconic is inevitable, and businesses like Intuition are already well on the way. We want to stimulate more use of Hemming Park and the Landing. And we're about to break ground on an iconic new Regional Transportation Center.
What better time.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 02, 2016, 01:04:56 PM
What remains most interesting to me is how simple connectivity between all of these seemingly disparate projects in the old city could make them so much more than the sum of their parts. Some of the projects are right along the Skyway (Lavilla Lofts, FSCJ Dorm and Cafe, etc.), but so many more are just outside of its reach and the potential synergy that connectivity could provide.
Find the money now, rather than 10 years from now, and prevent all of these emerging areas from turning into isolated stops for drivers and parkers. Can you imagine what a giant leap forward it would be for the entire urban core if we were to build a no-frills Skyway station in Brooklyn, expand service to the stadium district, and perhaps extend the southern line down into the District. Add a few shuttles or trolleys feeding Riverside/Avondale/San Marco residents onto the Skyway (along with First Coast Flyer passengers arriving at shiny new Regional Transportation Center), and all of a sudden, you go from a system that goes from "nowhere to nowhere" to a red hot, future-proof transit service that connects genuine population centers to genuine destinations and encourages infill everywhere in between.
It feels like something that should have already been happening yesterday. Transit seems like something that you just can't afford to be reactive, rather than proactive about. Brooklyn is exploding. Our new state-of-the-art Amphitheater and flex event space is going to bring up to 100 events downtown each year, with Shad Khan already publicly stating that he's planning further development in the area. The District is set to break ground by year's end. Progress on the Shipyards, U.S.S Adams, and Doro/Iconic is inevitable, and businesses like Intuition are already well on the way. We want to stimulate more use of Hemming Park and the Landing. And we're about to break ground on an iconic new Regional Transportation Center.
What better time.
In addition to beginning construction on the JRTC, the JTA is developing a plan to retrofit and possibly expand the Skyway:
QuoteOn December 10, 2015, the JTA Board approved the recommendation to approve a resolution (RESOLUTION NO. 2015-30) supporting the continued operation of the Automated Skyway Express and development of a Skyway Modernization Program. The Skyway Modernization Program will include replacement of the existing vehicles and evaluation of future extensions.
Skyway Modernization Program will include:
A Capital Plan to support vehicle replacement and upgrades the operating system and infrastructure. The capital plan should consider innovative technologies available to replace the existing vehicles.
A System Plan identifying the optimal downtown circulator system that connects with existing and emerging downtown developments and nearby neighborhoods. This should include evaluation of options, including different modes, for an East-West corridor from Riverside to the Stadium/Shipyards and a corridor connecting San Marco to the Southbank. System planning should be conducted in a manner that allows the JTA to pursue FTA Section 5309 New Starts funding.
An Operating Plan for the existing and expanded system that includes service hours, frequency of service and fleet requirement. This should consider expansion of Skyway service hours on evenings and weekends.
A Financial Plan identifying funding needs for modernization, potential system expansion, and long-term operations and maintenance. The financial plan will include a strategy to secure state and federal funds; explore joint use development; transit oriented development and public private partnerships to assist in funding, financing and delivering projects and services; and evaluate fare policy. Funding opportunities will be explored with the U.S.
JTA staff will report quarterly to the Board of Directors and provide the final Skyway Modernization Program to the Board of Directors and Members of the Skyway Advisory Group by December 2016.
http://www.jtafla.com/blueprint-2020/skyway-modernization-program/
Quote from: KenFSU on August 02, 2016, 01:04:56 PM
What remains most interesting to me is how simple connectivity between all of these seemingly disparate projects in the old city could make them so much more than the sum of their parts. Some of the projects are right along the Skyway (Lavilla Lofts, FSCJ Dorm and Cafe, etc.), but so many more are just outside of its reach and the potential synergy that connectivity could provide.
Find the money now, rather than 10 years from now, and prevent all of these emerging areas from turning into isolated stops for drivers and parkers. Can you imagine what a giant leap forward it would be for the entire urban core if we were to build a no-frills Skyway station in Brooklyn, expand service to the stadium district, and perhaps extend the southern line down into the District. Add a few shuttles or trolleys feeding Riverside/Avondale/San Marco residents onto the Skyway (along with First Coast Flyer passengers arriving at shiny new Regional Transportation Center), and all of a sudden, you go from a system that goes from "nowhere to nowhere" to a red hot, future-proof transit service that connects genuine population centers to genuine destinations and encourages infill everywhere in between.
It feels like something that should have already been happening yesterday. Transit seems like something that you just can't afford to be reactive, rather than proactive about. Brooklyn is exploding. Our new state-of-the-art Amphitheater and flex event space is going to bring up to 100 events downtown each year, with Shad Khan already publicly stating that he's planning further development in the area. The District is set to break ground by year's end. Progress on the Shipyards, U.S.S Adams, and Doro/Iconic is inevitable, and businesses like Intuition are already well on the way. We want to stimulate more use of Hemming Park and the Landing. And we're about to break ground on an iconic new Regional Transportation Center.
What better time.
Amen.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2016, 01:38:43 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on August 02, 2016, 01:04:56 PM
What remains most interesting to me is how simple connectivity between all of these seemingly disparate projects in the old city could make them so much more than the sum of their parts. Some of the projects are right along the Skyway (Lavilla Lofts, FSCJ Dorm and Cafe, etc.), but so many more are just outside of its reach and the potential synergy that connectivity could provide.
Find the money now, rather than 10 years from now, and prevent all of these emerging areas from turning into isolated stops for drivers and parkers. Can you imagine what a giant leap forward it would be for the entire urban core if we were to build a no-frills Skyway station in Brooklyn, expand service to the stadium district, and perhaps extend the southern line down into the District. Add a few shuttles or trolleys feeding Riverside/Avondale/San Marco residents onto the Skyway (along with First Coast Flyer passengers arriving at shiny new Regional Transportation Center), and all of a sudden, you go from a system that goes from "nowhere to nowhere" to a red hot, future-proof transit service that connects genuine population centers to genuine destinations and encourages infill everywhere in between.
It feels like something that should have already been happening yesterday. Transit seems like something that you just can't afford to be reactive, rather than proactive about. Brooklyn is exploding. Our new state-of-the-art Amphitheater and flex event space is going to bring up to 100 events downtown each year, with Shad Khan already publicly stating that he's planning further development in the area. The District is set to break ground by year's end. Progress on the Shipyards, U.S.S Adams, and Doro/Iconic is inevitable, and businesses like Intuition are already well on the way. We want to stimulate more use of Hemming Park and the Landing. And we're about to break ground on an iconic new Regional Transportation Center.
What better time.
In addition to beginning construction on the JRTC, the JTA is developing a plan to retrofit and possibly expand the Skyway:
QuoteOn December 10, 2015, the JTA Board approved the recommendation to approve a resolution (RESOLUTION NO. 2015-30) supporting the continued operation of the Automated Skyway Express and development of a Skyway Modernization Program. The Skyway Modernization Program will include replacement of the existing vehicles and evaluation of future extensions.
Skyway Modernization Program will include:
A Capital Plan to support vehicle replacement and upgrades the operating system and infrastructure. The capital plan should consider innovative technologies available to replace the existing vehicles.
A System Plan identifying the optimal downtown circulator system that connects with existing and emerging downtown developments and nearby neighborhoods. This should include evaluation of options, including different modes, for an East-West corridor from Riverside to the Stadium/Shipyards and a corridor connecting San Marco to the Southbank. System planning should be conducted in a manner that allows the JTA to pursue FTA Section 5309 New Starts funding.
An Operating Plan for the existing and expanded system that includes service hours, frequency of service and fleet requirement. This should consider expansion of Skyway service hours on evenings and weekends.
A Financial Plan identifying funding needs for modernization, potential system expansion, and long-term operations and maintenance. The financial plan will include a strategy to secure state and federal funds; explore joint use development; transit oriented development and public private partnerships to assist in funding, financing and delivering projects and services; and evaluate fare policy. Funding opportunities will be explored with the U.S.
JTA staff will report quarterly to the Board of Directors and provide the final Skyway Modernization Program to the Board of Directors and Members of the Skyway Advisory Group by December 2016.
http://www.jtafla.com/blueprint-2020/skyway-modernization-program/
Lake, you think there is a chance to turn the Skyway into a more affordable street car system?
Physically, I believe it can be done. However, if I had to put cash down, I'd put it on JTA keeping it a peoplemover and only figuring out how to expand to the stadium, San Marco and Brooklyn.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4532831631_QJR5fG7-900x1000.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2016, 03:59:57 PM
Physically, I believe it can be done. However, if I had to put cash down, I'd put it on JTA keeping it a peoplemover and only figuring out how to expand to the stadium, San Marco and Brooklyn.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4532831631_QJR5fG7-900x1000.jpg)
^Aside from maybe shifting the sports complex stop a bit further to the east, this is pretty much perfect.
Sincerely hope the state recognizes it as such.
^At a minimum, I think there's missed opportunity with strengthening connectivity to Five Points/Riverside and Springfield/UF Health. Both are population, entertainment and employment centers that can serve as everyday anchors. The space between these locations (Brooklyn, Sugar Hill, Hansontown, etc.) and the existing Skyway network is also suitable for high density infill. However, accessing either means you'd need to seriously consider dropping the system down to grade. That requires a change in technology. Nevertheless, a lot of the recent complaints being made about downtown are actually things being planned for this exact moment.
The combination of East San Marco with a skyway stop and a very distant commuter rail stop is so exciting. Looking at the JTA map it seems like so little is needed to give skyway access to two large populations by creating the Brooklyn and San Marco stops. The stadium is far less practical, but I can see that being the route built first.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2016, 03:59:57 PM
Physically, I believe it can be done. However, if I had to put cash down, I'd put it on JTA keeping it a peoplemover and only figuring out how to expand to the stadium, San Marco and Brooklyn.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4532831631_QJR5fG7-900x1000.jpg)
An extension to the stadium and transportation depot, alone, would have huge positive consequences on the system, in my opinion. I am truly optimistic for the future of downtown, as long as folks stay on the ball with the money being spent. Seems like there's a bit of an activist revolution happening here, as well, but in the "let's put things in the right place" sort of way.
^Unless there are truly 100 events a year at the stadium/amphitheater complex going forward, a stadium extension should be the last thing on the list.
A stadium extension would guarantee a certain number of riders tied to events. That's probably less important if the system stays free. It probably also wouldn't have the TOD opportunities. However, it would allow the city to use the stadium parking more regularly. On example is the courts: several hundred potential jurors have to report to the Courthouse every Monday. That's far too many to fit in nearby parking, so historically the court had them park at the Stadium and shuttled them over. A Skyway extension could serve that need and other similar ones.
Getting something near Riverside/5 Points is more important than the stadium IMO. San Marco extension would also mean a lot more at this point.
At the same time, between Suns games, Armada games, Sharks games, Concerts/Events in the Arena, and soon in the Amphitheater, there are an easy 100 events per year out there. The system could never handle Jags games though or FL/GA. If Khan gets a hotel built out there, you do have some potential for TOD but not quite as much due to the Shipyards' problems, the jail, and Maxwell House.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 03, 2016, 03:18:56 PM
^Unless there are truly 100 events a year at the stadium/amphitheater complex going forward, a stadium extension should be the last thing on the list.
Oh, we're already way past that point already. Even without the ampitheater, the sports complex already hosts between 150 and 200 events a year, between the Jags, Suns, Sharks, Giants and Armada, plus all of the concerts and other events at the stadium, the fair, music festivals in Met Park, etc. With construction of the new amphitheater and event space, we could conceivably cross the 200 event barrier. That's a lot of people to move. That said, the stadium line certainly has the best chance of success if it's tied into those Brooklyn/Riverside and San Marco population centers.
Wow, not even the JTA knows where Riverside is located....Ugh!
Quote from: KenFSU on August 02, 2016, 04:11:52 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 02, 2016, 03:59:57 PM
Physically, I believe it can be done. However, if I had to put cash down, I'd put it on JTA keeping it a peoplemover and only figuring out how to expand to the stadium, San Marco and Brooklyn.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4532831631_QJR5fG7-900x1000.jpg)
^Aside from maybe shifting the sports complex stop a bit further to the east, this is pretty much perfect.
Sincerely hope the state recognizes it as such.
I would say you almost don't need it going that far east yet. Drop it off AP at Randolph between the baseball field and arena. People going to a Jags game or event at Everbank would take it to get that far. I would take the extra .3 miles of funding into Riverside.
I feel like dropping the skyway station down by the fuller warren (annie lytle anyone?) would already be good enough to serve five points. Obviously a future streetcar connection would do wonders through the rest of riverside, avondale, murray hill, etc but if we're just talking about the current technology expanded as is, I think that would already be close enough to capture a decent amount of five points traffic.
I would be equally thrilled with a San Marco extension close to the East San Marco project as well as the Old City Hall stop that would tie the Hyatt and elbow into the rest of the network. Given the current situation I'll pass on extending farther down Bay St or into The District until future development warrants it.
But this is all fairly pie-in-the-sky...we all know that we won't see any of these extensions until the situation is so dire that even the fully built-out map shown above is inadequate, if ever. It's been hard enough to find funding for a simple station in Brooklyn where the maintenance yard is.
Seems to me that a major advantage the Skyway has over the streetcars and other ground level transport is that it avoids the normal ground traffic ... intersections, traffic lights ... delays ... crashes etc. Because of this "up in the air" advantage, significant extensions of the Skyway would do wonders to relieve traffic congestion. Streetcars offer advantages too, so perhaps they could operate in parallel, and as connections to and between other areas.
Can someone answer the question .... to what size can the Skyway vehicles be increased? ... perhaps double the current?
Quote from: ronchamblin on August 04, 2016, 08:03:36 AM
Seems to me that a major advantage the Skyway has over the streetcars and other ground level transport is that it avoids the normal ground traffic ... intersections, traffic lights ... delays ... crashes etc. Because of this "up in the air" advantage, significant extensions of the Skyway would do wonders to relieve traffic congestion. Streetcars offer advantages too, so perhaps they could operate in parallel, and as connections to and between other areas.
Can someone answer the question .... to what size can the Skyway vehicles be increased? ... perhaps double the current?
Another alternative would be increasing the frequency, but then the next question would be the max capacity of the system (i.e. how many vehicles does it support at the same time).
I would love for the Skyway system to be combined with other types of rail based transportation, i.e. have the Skyway in the DT adjancent area and connect it to e.g. a light rail system that would connect the adjacent areas / counties (and the airport, the Beaches...) to DT Jax.
Does anyone know what the cost/mile for this system would be? I read somewhere it was roughly 80 million, but don't recall the exact number. If so, it would be on the order of 250mil to fully build it out. Maybe it could fill the pension void ;)
Here's two articles worth reading regarding the Skyway and streetcar technology:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-nov-9-reasons-to-expand-the-skywayas-a-streetcar/
https://nextcity.org/daily/entry/jacksonville-people-mover-plans-modernize-expand
Quote from: ronchamblin on August 04, 2016, 08:03:36 AM
Seems to me that a major advantage the Skyway has over the streetcars and other ground level transport is that it avoids the normal ground traffic ... intersections, traffic lights ... delays ... crashes etc. Because of this "up in the air" advantage, significant extensions of the Skyway would do wonders to relieve traffic congestion. Streetcars offer advantages too, so perhaps they could operate in parallel, and as connections to and between other areas.
The Skyway is an automated people mover (APM) on top of an existing elevated deck. If you replaced the APM with a streetcar or light rail, you'd have a streetcar or light rail operating on top of an existing elevated deck through downtown. So, elevation is not an advantage of the Skyway. It's a disadvantage because the other other modes can operate above or at ground level and even on their own ROW. History has proven that they are a lot more adaptable in accessing and serving different types of built environments. They're also cheaper to build and maintain. Here's a sample map Ock drew last year. If the Skyway were a streetcar you could have a single system that's elevated through downtown and at-grade outside of it.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4479387629_7bTTdC3-L.jpg)
Quote from: camarocane on August 04, 2016, 08:15:32 AM
Does anyone know what the cost/mile for this system would be? I read somewhere it was roughly 80 million, but don't recall the exact number. If so, it would be on the order of 250mil to fully build it out. Maybe it could fill the pension void ;)
A street car is about $15 million a mile. To me, a street car would make sense coming out of Brooklyn to Riverside and to the Stadium Area. Along the shipyard land for the foreseeable future, there are no cross streets.
Lake's idea about converting the whole thing to street car makes way too much sense.
^I agree with that too, assuming the Skyway structure can carry the weight.
^There are streetcars on the market that are lighter than the Skyway vehicle's existing weight. Ultimately, it boils down to whether JTA really wants to make such a conversion or not. It would be a significant upfront capital investment. However, so will modernizing the skyway vehicles and expanding a mode that cost twice as much per mile. So you're investing big bucks either way but a system serving more of the core city will have better ridership and TOD potential, in and outside of downtown. The largest con I can see for switching technology is that JTA's staff would have to be trained to gain familiarity with a new system.
^Wouldn't it be automated regardless of what they do? If not, that would be a pretty substantial con as well.
Quote from: FlaBoy on August 03, 2016, 03:50:50 PM
At the same time, between Suns games, Armada games, Sharks games, Concerts/Events in the Arena, and soon in the Amphitheater, there are an easy 100 events per year out there. The system could never handle Jags games though or FL/GA.
Quote from: KenFSU on August 03, 2016, 03:53:53 PM
Oh, we're already way past that point already. Even without the ampitheater, the sports complex already hosts between 150 and 200 events a year, between the Jags, Suns, Sharks, Giants and Armada, plus all of the concerts and other events at the stadium, the fair, music festivals in Met Park, etc. With construction of the new amphitheater and event space, we could conceivably cross the 200 event barrier. That's a lot of people to move.
The existing parking structures are more than adequate for any event smaller than 10-20,000 people. Most people are coming from well beyond the urban core, so they're going to drive regardless. Only the big events that cause traffic jams, expensive parking in private lots, etc will really utilize the skyway. Currently, there are maybe a dozen of those events a year.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 04, 2016, 09:30:48 AM
^Wouldn't it be automated regardless of what they do? If not, that would be a pretty substantial con as well.
No. The only "automated" technology out of those would be the skyway people mover technology.
Can the people mover be brought down to near ground level to save costs of elevation?
The other thing people never consider is that the current trains are much smaller than they could be. The platform's are designed to handle trains more than twice the size of the current ones. With larger trains and better route managing algorithms the skyway could easily handle moving people from the garages on the south bank / convention center to the stadium area for anything shy of the playoffs or superbowl. Most of those garages sit empty on the weekends and this would not only diffuse traffic, but encourage people to explore areas outside of the stadium district post game. You win by putting more bodies downtown on the weekends, getting more use out of public transit, spreading out traffic and helping local businesses.
Quote from: FlaBoy on August 04, 2016, 10:22:53 AM
Can the people mover be brought down to near ground level to save costs of elevation?
No. The Skyway is guided by a monorail beam. If you drop it to grade, it will block street and pedestrian access.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7004-p1150899.JPG)
That beam is the reason the skyway has to be grade separated. The only place where it makes since to drop it to grade would be in San Marco because the corridor would run parallel to the FEC tracks, and there's no crossing north of Atlantic Boulevard. Other fixed modes don't have that beam, which allows them to operate elevated or at ground level.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4444150369_ZNHJFK8-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4324352525_5bzX3V3-L.jpg)
One system that I found very interesting is the VAL (light metro) people mover system. It is e.g. used in the Toulouse (France) subway system. I found it very interesting and it worked rather nicely while I was there.
What I am still not sure about is how it is different from the Skyway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_Metro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulouse_Metro)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9hicule_Automatique_L%C3%A9ger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A9hicule_Automatique_L%C3%A9ger)
I find this part interesting:
QuoteIn 2006 the NeoVal project, successor of the VAL, was announced. It will feature regenerative braking. 40% of the 62 million Euros set aside for the programme will come from Oseo (the technology-supporting project agency formerly known as the AII). The program is managed by Siemens, in association with Lohr Industrie. The NeoVal will be guided by a single central rail, similar to that of the Translohr, and will be able to operate without any electrical supply between the stations (no third rail or overhead), making the cost of infrastructure much lower
^It has a third rail, which supplies the trains with electricity.
QuoteThe trains have rubber tyres and use a third rail 750 V direct current electric supply.
Like a heavy rail system (ex. NYC Subway, Chicago EL, BART, DC Metro, etc.), you can't run this type of technology at-grade without blocking streets and sidewalks because you'll end up frying someone trying to cross it. It has to be either above or below grade.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/VAL-Zhongsan-Reverse.JPG/1280px-VAL-Zhongsan-Reverse.JPG)
The major difference is the Skyway has a monorail beam. VAL does not.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/plog-content/images/transit/skyway-operations-center/p1150898.JPG)
In both cases, you can't drive or walk across them at-grade.
I guess the question would be then if not having to use mono beam would reduce weight and hence cost of expanding system . given the existing train sets are probably due for replacement soon.
If the trainsets are replaced, they'll probably have to remove or modify that beam anyway. No one makes our skyway vehicles anymore.
Curious as to what would be the cost of creating a system like San Diego's Trolleys. Lived there for 17 years and even though we lived in East County there were 2 stations near my home that allowed the family to get to the Convention Center for Comi-Con, Padres games downtown, the Gaslamp District and if the money gods were smiling a Chargers Game or 2.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Learning-From/San-Diego-2011/i-8xNm3vT/0/L/P1490260-L.jpg)
The San Diego Trolley is LRT. LRT can range anywhere from $25 million to $100 million depending on ROW costs and if its elevated, at-grade or underground. Based off the cost of recent LRT systems built in the US, probably $30 to $50 million per mile.
(https://lightrailnow.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/2_lrn_us-lrt-starter-lines-cost-per-mi_rev2.jpg)
As for converting the Skyway system to LRT, the existing elevated structure can't support the weight of many modern streetcars (see Portland example below), much less full blown LRT.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4256-img_5826-g.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on August 04, 2016, 12:26:40 PM
^It has a third rail, which supplies the trains with electricity.
QuoteThe trains have rubber tyres and use a third rail 750 V direct current electric supply.
Like a heavy rail system (ex. NYC Subway, Chicago EL, BART, DC Metro, etc.), you can't run this type of technology at-grade without blocking streets and sidewalks because you'll end up frying someone trying to cross it. It has to be either above or below grade.
Wouldn't the NeoVal solve this problem ?
QuoteThe NeoVal will be guided by a single central rail, similar to that of the Translohr, and will be able to operate without any electrical supply between the stations (no third rail or overhead), making the cost of infrastructure much lower
I guess the trains need to carry batteries and be recharged at each station and at least recover some energy when braking.
The original Skyway vehicle was a VAL type of APM. It was shut down and replaced with the current Skyway technology in 1996. The old rolling stock was sold to O'Hare airport in Chicago. NeoVal is something new and not in large supply. It seems that its parts are probably just as proprietary as the Skyway is now, which is a problem because proprietary technology tends to end up being higher to maintain than more commonly used technology. It could be great but I'm not sure Jax should risk its fixed transit future on attempting to implement a technology that hasn't made it to the US yet. We sort of did that with the Skyway and screwed the pooch big time.
Site plans filed for Houston Manor:
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=548235
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Project-Renderings/i-gMpxfwk/0/L/20151217_DDRB%20Meeting%20Packet2_Page_38A-L-L.jpg)
It seems MARTA (Atlanta) is seriously considering if not committing to dual purpose vehicles ... rails to streetcar ....
http://atlanta.curbed.com/2016/8/15/12486116/marta-atlanta-wants-swap-entire-train-fleet (http://atlanta.curbed.com/2016/8/15/12486116/marta-atlanta-wants-swap-entire-train-fleet)
;)^Pretty much validates my position with the Skyway.....
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2015-nov-9-reasons-to-expand-the-skywayas-a-streetcar/
Why spend big bucks to retrofit with technology that permanently limits the expansion potential of the system? If you're going to retrofit, do so in a manner that can accommodate and embrace growth and expansion to neighborhoods outside of the downtown proper.
Great apartments downtown but why would folks want to live there? There is nothing there! Half of downtown is empty or abandoned buildings, no parking, nothing to do and god forbid you make any noise or the folks across the river will have a coronary! The effort would be better to make downtown a place to go BEFORE you build places to live!
Dmitrii
We've been saying it's needed for years and it appears that we're finally gaining traction with downtown residencies! The design is a little utilitarian, but I'll take 250 new apartments!
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=548546
Unfortunately that's the old St John site, which was one of the few well designed buildings proposed during the last boom. I otherwise would be fine with this project, but I hate to see the St John proposal finally die.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 30, 2016, 11:49:29 AM
Site plans filed for Houston Manor:
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=548235
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Urban-Project-Renderings/i-gMpxfwk/0/L/20151217_DDRB%20Meeting%20Packet2_Page_38A-L-L.jpg)
The building permit for Houston Street Manor has been filed. Expect to see another infill residential construction break ground anytime now:
Quote• Houston Street Manor, 139 N. Jefferson St., contractor is Core Construction Services of Florida, seven-story building with five floors for apartments over two stories of parking, $8.6 million.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=549454
Awesome!
Looks good
It will certainly make the area look a lot nicer there.
The center, failing to hold, will be saved by encroaching victories in the flanks.
I suspect that this, along with two or three core successes, will allow the core to finally win the war against perpetual semi-desolation.
Quote from: stephendare on September 21, 2016, 01:10:31 PM
Quote from: Dmitrii on September 21, 2016, 12:42:44 PM
Great apartments downtown but why would folks want to live there? There is nothing there! Half of downtown is empty or abandoned buildings, no parking, nothing to do and god forbid you make any noise or the folks across the river will have a coronary! The effort would be better to make downtown a place to go BEFORE you build places to live!
Dmitrii
The basic problem is still parking management, our idiot city council and its attempt to rid downtown of wandering brown people, and the ongoing efforts of the downtown development authority to pretty much kill anything that isn't Shad Khan or from their vaunted brain trust.
If our city government would try to enable people instead of controlling everything, the downtown would boom within a year.
Its already a destination, our laws just dont allow people to live there, shop there, or visit there.
I agree with the wondering people perspective, its needs an update regardless of skin color.
Shad Khan gets what he wants because he has already made a substantial investment in Jacksonville, and usually doesn't have to wait (like most developers) for his partners to pony up or wait for his bankers to go through their due diligence. This seems to be the pattern with most developments in greater Jacksonville. Those who internally finance, get the green lights, those who don't go through finance hell, and therefore run afoul of our leaders.
Jacksonville is not the only metro to have a chronic issue of aborted developments. The hole in the ground for the Chicago Spire between Ogden Slip and the Chicago River is a prime example of how city leaders allowed a construction permit to be issued when the developer didn't have enough financing to begin with. From what I have read, COJ is attempting to avoid that.
You mingle with more people in this realm, so you may be better informed. I rely what I read here and in the press in general.