Thoughts?
QuoteNow, talk of redeveloping the Landing has died down and any city involvement or money for a Landing makeover is nonexistent as a legal battle simmers.
"We're operating the way it is," said Toney Sleiman, co-owner of the Landing. "It will stay that way until there's money to develop it.
QuoteWith all that foot traffic, Sleiman has an if-it-ain't-broke-don't-fix-it philosophy.
"We don't really have anything in the way of future redevelopment plans," Sleiman said.
He added his company has 45 years remaining on the lease from the city which technically owns the 6 acres of land and Sleiman is prepared to maintain operations there for every one of those years.
QuoteThe lawsuit in particular caused the city to halt any further consideration of city money being used for Landing redevelopment until the legal flap is resolved.
That's fine with Landing General Manager Janice Lowe. She said as debate brewed for over a year on the future of the Landing, there was an air of uncertainty that slowed business and hampered efforts to fill storefronts with new tenants.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2016-06-21/story/collaboration-city-outs-jacksonville-landing-seeks-revitalize-business
It could be worse. At least he didnt blame Curry and the pension tax vote.
I say let him chase tenants instead of holding him hostage during due process.
So the City should help build something better in Brooklyn (maybe on the T-U site) and force the Landing owners to compete for customers on their own dime.
^Reality is, the city can't help itself. It sure isn't subsidizing a retail center on the site of the TU when the one it has now isn't all peaches and cream. Since it will be here a while, it would be an improvement for the Landing to invest in a pressure washer, landscaping, a few buckets of paint and go after more local tenants.
^Isn't that the truth? I think with a $500,000- $1,000,000 investment you could actually do a lot with the space to bring it up to date and be attractive... Will Sleiman make that investment? No. Probably not. Although now with redevelopment off the table maybe he'll be more willing to look at those touch up options for the short to mid term.
My take from the article is that the owners thinks 14,000 people a day go there, so why fix it. Of course, we know 14,000 a day don't go there. The problem with The Landing can't be fixed with paint. For starters, it was built backwards. The whole thing was built as either a photo-op from Friendship Fountain or expecting everyone to arrive by boat. It doesn't interact with the street at all. Heck, coming down Laura Street "THE JACKSONVILLE LANDING" sign reads backwards. Couple that with an interior hallway that should have been used as a maintenance access instead of a primary pedestrian entrance. By that I mean, all of the store fronts should have faced either the street or center courtyard. This would have allowed individual business to set their own hours, have window displays, and move merchandise out the sidewalk. Malls don't work anymore, and I don't think mini-malls ever did.
I'm not sure which is a bigger testament to the city's ineptitude in terms of DT redevelopment, the Laura Trio or the Landing.
How many times has something been proposed only to go nowhere. It has happened so many times that the next time, it won't even be taken seriously. How long has the parking issue been on the burner only to never be resolved. How much of the city's resources have gone into trying to get the project off the ground, all for nothing?
The above questions can describe either project.
Quote from: Kerry on June 22, 2016, 12:10:57 AM
My take from the article is that the owners thinks 14,000 people a day go there, so why fix it. Of course, we know 14,000 a day don't go there.
My take was that there is a lawsuit, and he's not going to do any of those grand redevelopment plans on land owned by the city without public money. The building was acquired for $5 million, so its not like they are losing money.
QuoteThe problem with The Landing can't be fixed with paint. For starters, it was built backwards. The whole thing was built as either a photo-op from Friendship Fountain or expecting everyone to arrive by boat. It doesn't interact with the street at all. Heck, coming down Laura Street "THE JACKSONVILLE LANDING" sign reads backwards. Couple that with an interior hallway that should have been used as a maintenance access instead of a primary pedestrian entrance. By that I mean, all of the store fronts should have faced either the street or center courtyard. This would have allowed individual business to set their own hours, have window displays, and move merchandise out the sidewalk. Malls don't work anymore, and I don't think mini-malls ever did.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2991294366_7T9kpJZ-M.jpg)
Bayside Marketplace - MiamiCount me in the population of the few who don't believe demolition and removing bridge ramps are the only way to fix its problems. Bayside Marketplace is pretty much the same thing in downtown Miami and its always been filled with stuff. The reality is festival marketplaces and malls don't work in cities with dead downtowns. So change the tenant mix. The waterfront dining spots tend to stay leased. However, the food court struggles. If I were Sleiman, I'd kill the food court and convert the space into a second floor restaurant or two, with views of the river. This idea isn't new and it's one he's considered before. Mavericks takes up 1/2 of the original food court space. As for the mall, consider the possibilities of something like a public market, change the tenant mix and make the idea of a "front porch" along Independent something a bit more permanent. Go for something a bit more authentic Jax, instead of a bunch of chains already spread all over town.
Milwaukee Public Market - Milwaukee
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1231108797_F9boK-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1231107928_ACVf4-M.jpg)
Ferry Building - San Francisco
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4186754486_gmRWPZP-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4186599244_wVd5tsB-L.jpg)
Lexington Market - Baltimore
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-WJQkWcS/0/L/DSCF9741-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Baltimore-April-2016/i-HXZJzxw/0/L/DSCF9740-L.jpg)
Union Market - Washington, DC
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-rjbw5z9/0/L/P1660233-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-2013/i-BR7gmDD/0/L/P1660238-L.jpg)
As for having too much space for retail, carve it up with alternative big box uses.....just like we do with older suburban malls.....
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4167-p1060684.JPG)
Imagination Station - Formerly Rouse' Portside Marketplace in Toledo, OH
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Learning-From/Baltimore-2014/i-nBzTvwQ/0/L/P1720543-L.jpg)
Ripley's Believe It or Not - Baltimore Harborside Marketplace
Maybe fill the empty space up with fish tanks and call it an aquarium ;) since there's a snowball's chance in hell of that actually happening....
I believe it was Steve Williams who had proposed not tearing down the landing, rather, give it a major face lift and make it something that is exclusively a Jax thing. Meaning, local everything. Perhaps add some sort of craft beer joint (or two), a local restaurant, local seafood produce?
Give it some variety that appeals to not only locals, but people visiting. It's not rocket science.
Probably for the best right now. Even besides the legal kerfuffle, the city doesn't have $11 million to give to the Landing, especially without a top-notch plan.
Don't forget about the Barnett Building, the Laura trio, Berkman 2, and the shipyards.
If only the City had some kind of dedicated sales tax that raise funds for stuff like this instead of expanding roads that facilitate more tax-sucking sprawl....oh wait.
Funny Bayside Marketplace in Miami was mentioned.
http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/130509/story6.shtml
Quote from: Kerry on June 22, 2016, 12:00:44 PM
Funny Bayside Marketplace in Miami was mentioned.
http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/130509/story6.shtml
^Great article. The last paragraph pretty much tells it all:
Quote"The property is 26 years old," she said, "so we constantly need to evolve and regenerate and reinvent ourselves.
"We certainly are doing that as we speak," she added.
And Bayside, she said, is working closely with the city and Mr. Sarnoff to do so.
"We are trying to identify what we will do as far as bringing in new tenants and upgrading the neighborhood and the property," she said, "but nothing has been determined as of yet."
Bayside Marketplace was built in 1987 by the former Rouse Co. and is now managed and owned by Chicago-based General Growth Properties. It is, according to Ms. Weller, in the top 5% of General Growth Properties' holdings as far as the sales per square foot national norm.
Currently, 188 businesses operate within Bayside Marketplace, with another two stores coming this year and fewer than five retail slots, one of which is for a restaurant, available.
Sounds like the complete opposite of the Landing's situation despite the physical structure (turning itself away from downtown) and also being outdated.
What really stands out in this story is that they aren't tearing Bayside down. They are upgrading it after nearly 30 years of life. This is exactly what Sleiman should be doing with the Landing. Forget about waiting on city money to tear down bridge ramps and flatten the place out. Ultimately, that's not going to solve the larger issue of it being located in downtown Jax. Try reinventing instead. Btw, this article is an old one. Here's what they're adding to Bayside now:
(http://skyrisemiami.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/SkyRise-Miami-The-Epicenter-of-Miami-1024x960.jpg)
http://skyrisemiami.com/
^Jax can get things started by cleaning the place up and getting creative with better utilizing much of the empty interior space.
While still on the Bayside topic, that tower was only made possible by the mysterious disappearance of a "Structurally Unsound Building" violation at Bayside.
^What building was that? Bayside is still standing and the tower location is on a pier they built a portion of the marina on. Looking at historic aerials, the tower site has been surface parking since the 1990s.
I'll be one of the few contrarians that think the Landing, though far from perfect, is ok in it's current form. Yes it's outdated and has failed to come close to fulfilling its potential and a major overhaul would be welcomed, but without that there are so many barriers keeping it from repurposing itself like the other examples mentioned. It doesn't have the numbers of visitors and conventions that make Bayside and Harborside so succesful, the Landing's lack of connectivity to the rest of downtown that's not on the water makes it less attractive as a major retail location, the area does not have the residential and gentrification support for a newer food market like DC's Union Market and it certainly lacks the quaint historical or generational appeal of more established places like Philly's Italian Baltimore's Lexington and Cincy's Findlay's markets even though most of the area surrounding them have seen better days.
What can't be overlooked are the 300+ events the Landing holds. I've always hoped that if the Elbow allowed for alcohol protablility and had more diverse nightlife options it could give the Landing a reason to improve and be more competitive, but if the Landing were to repurpose and add residential shrinking its footprint what other options are there for Fla-Ga and New Year revellers? It's a blessing having a central place where you can hang, drink, hear live music, enjoy the river, and spread out because without something like the Landing more pressure would be put on side streets and the riverwalk to handle event crowds.
And if you think the Landing is a pice of crap, then you should really check out Norfolk's sad-ass version Waterside if it's even still there. And there are probably dozens of theses types of projects that had so much potential and are now underutilized. The Landing tennant mix can use some improvement and regular maintenance should not be too much to ask, but for the most part the Landing serves its purpose for now.
Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on June 22, 2016, 01:07:17 PM
I'll be one of the few contrarians that think the Landing, though far from perfect, is ok in it's current form. Yes it's outdated and has failed to come close to fulfilling its potential and a major overhaul would be welcomed, but without that there are so many barriers keeping it from repurposing itself like the other examples mentioned. It doesn't have the numbers of visitors and conventions that make Bayside and Harborside so succesful, the Landing's lack of connectivity to the rest of downtown that's not on the water makes it less attractive as a major retail location, the area does not have the residential and gentrification support for a newer food market like DC's Union Market and it certainly lacks the quaint historical or generational appeal of more established places like Philly's Italian Baltimore's Lexington and Cincy's Findlay's markets even though most of the area surrounding them have seen better days.
To a degree, the Landing's structure is one of the most iconic features in Jax's skyline. It's not quaint historical but after nearly 30 years, it is generational. That's something to build upon. Also, the Landing is a fraction of the size of some of the other places mentioned. So apples to apples can exist in certain situations but the scale would obviously be smaller. For example, Milwaukee's public market doesn't have the history and isn't the size of some of the examples mentioned above. Yet it works.
It's quite possible to carve up 125k square feet of space into a variety of uses. You simply preserve the best of what works now (waterfront dining and events) and reposition the remaining space to compliment them.
QuoteAnd if you think the Landing is a piece of crap, then you should really check out Norfolk's sad-ass version Waterside if it's even still there. And there are probably dozens of theses types of projects that had so much potential and are now underutilized. The Landing tennant mix can use some improvement and regular maintenance should not be too much to ask, but for the most part the Landing serves its purpose for now.
What happened to Waterside is what many have suggested for downtown at the shipyards, Friendship Fountain and Times-Union sites over the last decade. There's a huge mall that was built three blocks north of Waterside that opened in 1999. Norfolk isn't a big city. The big mall wins and the smaller festival marketplace losses. Subsidize something similar at another nearby DT Jax site and the Landing will look a lot worse than what it is today.
Btw, Orlando's East End Market is another interesting project that most would not expect to work in the location it's in:
(https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2806/10674559373_d536e37db4_z.jpg)
https://www.eastendmkt.com/
I stopped in this place for dinner with a friend a few months back. It's no where near the size of the Landing but the idea could be applicable if the space were carved up, like an old suburban mall.
Luckily, the Landing only has 125,000 square feet of space.
Start carving it up with additional downtown needs, like a pharmacy, office supply store, cultural attraction, etc. and you'll max out the space before you know it.
On the other hand, trying to fill up Regency's 1.4 million square feet of space is a real struggle.
Lake, I never gave you permission to post a photo of me :P
Quote from: thelakelander on June 22, 2016, 01:38:18 PM
Btw, Orlando's East End Market is another interesting project that most would not expect to work in the location it's in:
(https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2806/10674559373_d536e37db4_z.jpg)
https://www.eastendmkt.com/
I stopped in this place for dinner with a friend a few months back. It's no where near the size of the Landing but the idea could be applicable if the space were carved up, like an old suburban mall.
Luckily, the Landing only has 125,000 square feet of space.
Start carving it up with additional downtown needs, like a pharmacy, office supply store, cultural attraction, etc. and you'll max out the space before you know it.
On the other hand, trying to fill up Regency's 1.4 million square feet of space is a real struggle.
All of this is so true. Does the city have any leverage in its lease to help nudge Sleiman into some new ideas?
Lol remember when years ago I mentioned the landing or any of the huge empty buildings downtown would be perfect for something like Columbus, Ohio's North Market? The east and south markets near downtown Orlando are basically miniature versions of the North Market in Ohio. I still think it would be extremely successful downtown and give tourists something to do in jax... But there's no way Sleighman invests any money into the Landing. He'd rather just collect what he can while it rots. He's part of the cancer affecting Jacksonville's poor strip mall structure. /end rant
Anyways, I live near the market Lake mentioned and it's always bustling with locals.
Speaking of Waterside, it's being revamped again. Much of what has been posted about what can be done with the Landing is being done in Norfolk right now. Markets, seafood vendors, restaurants, live events, brew pubs, bars?.....go figure....
(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/pilotonline.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/ff/7ffa1831-5220-5570-b859-a23f37d3779e/56cc838816931.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C694)
http://cordishinthenews.com/news/press/526/the-cordish-companies-announce-the-name-of-norfolk/
Quote from: Downtown Osprey on June 22, 2016, 09:46:55 AM
I believe it was Steve Williams who had proposed not tearing down the landing, rather, give it a major face lift and make it something that is exclusively a Jax thing. Meaning, local everything. Perhaps add some sort of craft beer joint (or two), a local restaurant, local seafood produce?
Give it some variety that appeals to not only locals, but people visiting. It's not rocket science.
I had to look up Steve Williams...seems like he roared to the headlines in 2015, years after myself and others on this website created whole threads and detailed conversations discussing just that. As JaxJaguar mentioned above, he referred to Columbus's North Market years ago as an inspiration.
Not rocket science here, you're right.
Quote from: stephendare on June 22, 2016, 12:21:46 PM
Quote from: stephendare on June 22, 2016, 12:13:04 PM
So Mayor Curry's Administration has finally killed the shit out of any hope of a locally led Downtown.
Awesome.
This is shaping up to be the best administration ever.
Killing the HRO, inviting national fringe characters like Ken Adkins and Roger Gannam, deliberately underfunding the Pension program, introducing partisan vindictiveness by firing all the female democrats from the various boards (Like Lisa King and Melody Bishop) almost the minute he got in office, Cancelling the Barnett, The Laura Trio, Land giveaways downtown to one of his Major Campaign Contributors (Khan), and now this.
Wow. How could it possibly get better?
Public puppy executions? Nun slapping? Poisoned Apples?
Oy...I quit paying attention to this forum and to Jacksonville a long time ago. I guess I figured it would progress, just too slowly for my patience. But it sounds like the city has severely regressed and that the mayor is a fascist. I don't even see Jacksonville in headlines for blunders, anymore...I just thought it kind of slipped into irrelevance. Sounds like it exhausted its own occasional chance at 15 minutes for stupidity and it's just doing it's weird, anti-progressive thing over there.
And 90% of the population is the kind that would say "well we like it just fine, you don't have to like it" or "then don't move here" or "if you don't like it, leave"
My parents are part of that. Complaining about how the economy still sucks, how Obama's ruining everything, etc etc. NOPE It's that they are living in the Cleveland of the south/FL that is still growing only because it's warmer and there are no state income taxes, and cheap housing. I think if you put Jax anywhere else, it sounds like it would be beating Buffalo to the bottom!
Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on June 22, 2016, 01:07:17 PM
I'll be one of the few contrarians that think the Landing, though far from perfect, is ok in it's current form. Yes it's outdated and has failed to come close to fulfilling its potential and a major overhaul would be welcomed, but without that there are so many barriers keeping it from repurposing itself like the other examples mentioned. It doesn't have the numbers of visitors and conventions that make Bayside and Harborside so succesful, the Landing's lack of connectivity to the rest of downtown that's not on the water makes it less attractive as a major retail location, the area does not have the residential and gentrification support for a newer food market like DC's Union Market and it certainly lacks the quaint historical or generational appeal of more established places like Philly's Italian Baltimore's Lexington and Cincy's Findlay's markets even though most of the area surrounding them have seen better days.
What can't be overlooked are the 300+ events the Landing holds. I've always hoped that if the Elbow allowed for alcohol protablility and had more diverse nightlife options it could give the Landing a reason to improve and be more competitive, but if the Landing were to repurpose and add residential shrinking its footprint what other options are there for Fla-Ga and New Year revellers? It's a blessing having a central place where you can hang, drink, hear live music, enjoy the river, and spread out because without something like the Landing more pressure would be put on side streets and the riverwalk to handle event crowds.
And if you think the Landing is a pice of crap, then you should really check out Norfolk's sad-ass version Waterside if it's even still there. And there are probably dozens of theses types of projects that had so much potential and are now underutilized. The Landing tennant mix can use some improvement and regular maintenance should not be too much to ask, but for the most part the Landing serves its purpose for now.
Not going to repeat what others have said about the design/size, but downtown Miami for a long time has had a dearth of hotel rooms and not many draws...the convention center itself is very small and is in Miami Beach. The arenas and cultural things are on the waterfront but too far away for Americans to consider walking, hotel options within walking are lacking.
All in all, Miami has more visitors, but to South Beach. Bayside linked itself to that. It would be no different than the Landing linking itself to something tourists to NE FL come to do.
Residential/gentrification support is hardly what draws these downtown marketplaces anywhere.
I lived as close to the Ferry Building in SF as one could and didn't make that my grocery - WAYYYY too expensive and a hastle dealing with the tourists.
The history there is that the Ferry Building was trapped behind a double decker freeway and surrounded by homeless and drug dealers for so long, and so when all that was cleared away, it's not like the crowds all of a sudden came in a day. The programming started small. Vendors were essentially paid to come in and take up space. Now *they* pay $300-400/sf in many cases. Not only that, there is event space for weddings, which happen daily, and a floor dedicated to office space, which now commands $100/sf NNN.
The biggest difference I see is that the city was willing to work with the owner, and the owner was a shrewd team, now a shrewd team at a prestigious publicly traded firm.
Similar to the Landing deal, the Port of SF owns the land and the building is leased. That is how it should be with waterfront stuff.
I see that as an act of desperation, though, and I don't blame people. Leaders have been so bad in Jax that a mentality of trying to get a new one, any new one, is pretty par for the course. I can't remember if I had a view myself or if I had already bowed out of even paying attention...going to go back and see.
I've gone full tilt left in the last 12-18 months, though, so I'd vote for Stalin before I voted for Trump, Romney, or any Republican.
It just seems like yesterday we were choosing between Hogan and Brown!
I see that a year ago I was voting for Bernie and guns came up last December, happy to see I was as passionate then about it as I am now in the wake of Orlando.
I'm going to go back to paying attention to my own surroundings...we have enough lunacy over here with the housing crisis, to deal with. Have fun with another "pretty" Republican little boy mayor!
Quote from: thelakelander on June 22, 2016, 01:04:45 PM
^What building was that? Bayside is still standing and the tower location is on a pier they built a portion of the marina on. Looking at historic aerials, the tower site has been surface parking since the 1990s.
It is still just proposed. They couldn't get title insurance because Bayside was deemed structurally unsound - but then the violation disappeared from city records eventhough the repairs were never made.
http://skyrisemiami.com/skyrise-miami-construction/
Skyrise is currently under construction. Can you post a link to the story claiming Bayside was deemed structurally unsound?
I'm interested in learning more about it.
Much as I love my Jacksonville, this does not surprise me.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 22, 2016, 03:47:16 PM
http://skyrisemiami.com/skyrise-miami-construction/
Skyrise is currently under construction. Can you post a link to the story claiming Bayside was deemed structurally unsound?
I'm interested in learning more about it.
Take it for what it is worth. For all I know the guy could be crack pot.
http://www.crespogram.com/index_public_html/SKYRISE_BAYSIDE_SERIES.html
Quote from: thelakelander on June 22, 2016, 02:20:29 PM
Speaking of Waterside, it's being revamped again. Much of what has been posted about what can be done with the Landing is being done in Norfolk right now. Markets, seafood vendors, restaurants, live events, brew pubs, bars?.....go figure....
(http://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/pilotonline.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/7/ff/7ffa1831-5220-5570-b859-a23f37d3779e/56cc838816931.image.jpg?resize=1200%2C694)
http://cordishinthenews.com/news/press/526/the-cordish-companies-announce-the-name-of-norfolk/
So that's what it takes: Make the Landing so empty and undesirable that even the Tony Sleimans of the world would divest leaving it open to bigger grander plans ;)
As far as the food market concept, I've always thought it would be better suited in the Farmer's Market since there is building space that could be refurbished for different vendors, indoor seating, and possibly demonstration space or areas for cooking classes. There is no way any wholesale changes could be considered by present ownership unless there was more competition to spur it (a mall in LaVilla, perhaps).
A food/public market-style product or two will happen sooner or later. It's a concept that has increased in popularity over the years.
Yeah, like the Landing, it's something that would work at the farmers market and a few other spots in the urban core as well.
Even a developer in Tampa is moving forward with one at the old trolley barn (Armature Works) in Tampa Heights now:
(http://www.tbo.com/storyimage/TB/20130726/ARTICLE/130729451/AR/0/AR-130729451.jpg)
http://www.tbo.com/news/business/developers-envision-the-heights-as-historic-riverfront-neighborhood-20130726/
http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/news/2016/06/15/ambitious-mixed-use-vision-for-tampa-heights.html
And any of you are surprised that Curry is leading Jax down this path? I saw this 100 miles down the road. His probable 8 years will see Jax looking at other downtowns taillights for years, more likely decades to come.
I don't know how Curry can be blamed for the Landing. It's been an ongoing issue since it opened in the late 1980s. We've had lots of mayors in those years. The last plan would have cost the public millions and may have not been worth the investment anyway.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2016, 08:58:45 AM
I don't know how Curry can be blamed for the Landing. It's been an ongoing issue since it opened in the late 1980s. We've had lots of mayors in those years. The last plan would have cost the public millions and may have not been worth the investment anyway.
Yeah, definitely not. To be clear, this particular issue predates Curry and even Alvin Brown. The issue is that Sleiman has been refusing to pay taxes on the parking lot property he bought, owns, and is generating money from. Brown was initially pursuing Sleiman on this as well, but quietly dropped it once he became friendly with Sleiman. However, the fact remains that
Sleiman has been refusing to pay taxes on the parking lot property he bought, owns, and is generating money from.The whole thing is part of the larger dispute between the city and the Landing's owners over parking that goes back to when it was built, long before Curry, Brown, or even Sleiman were in the picture. Sleiman's also bellyaching about not getting the $11 million he wanted to tear down the Landing and build something else. Looking at the plans he submitted under the last administration, it's a good thing he didn't get it.
Hopefully the legal dispute will be settled (with Sleiman paying the taxes he owes the city, i.e., us) and we can move on to solving the greater parking issue and exploring the possibility of a solid redevelopment of the Landing.
Can someone briefly explain why Sleiman thinks he doesn't owe us property taxes?
Here's the back story: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=546280
^
Sleiman's claiming the deed isn't valid as he never accepted it, even though he paid the city for the property and immediately started using it and drawing revenue back in 2007. He actually started the present dispute by demanding that the city pay him back the money he gave them for the property he bought.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=546280
Presumably, that was an attempt to gain leverage in the wider parking dispute and redevelopment deal that backfired on him.
Serious question: Could the city claim eminent domain on the landing for failure to upkeep/create economic development? This could kick Tony Sleazeball out of downtown and allow us to rent the full property and building to a better manager. Maybe create a group similar to friends of hemming that would encourage local artisan shops/startups to move in. This could add a little vibrancy to the landing and give the city the ability to better manage those who don't have the landings best interest in mind.
^Doubt it. In addition, the city's track record for downtown economic development isn't a good one itself.
It might pay to go the opposite way. Offer Sleiman this deal:
The city gives him the land
The city drops all claims to past rent or taxes and the related litigation.
In exchange Sleiman agrees to:
Drop all litigation
Drop all claims to unprovided parking
Complete the transaction as planned for the East parking parcel and take title
Invest a minimum of $20 mm into the site
Agree to have the plans approved by DRB and city council
Agree to start construction within 18 months of DRB/city council approval
Agree to finish construction and the investment within 18 months of construction commencing.
Agrees to allow FL/GA and Gator Bowl events to continue on the site as they have in the past.
Sleiman might not take it, but it would cut through all the red tape/litigation, put the ball in his court and not cost the city a dime.
One way or another the city needs to get off the dime on SOMETHING, or DT will lose another decade from inaction. It seems everything is tied up in litigation, environmental clean-up, lack of funding, etc.
I'd be in favor of issuing an RFP to rid ourselves of the land underneath the Landing, at market value, and reinvesting the profits into getting some other downtown initiatives off the ground. Wouldn't matter to me if Sleiman or another entity purchased it. Putting it in 100% private hands returns the property to the tax rolls and allows the market and private sector to determine its ultimate fate. Yes, we'd lose some of the public waterfront. However, it's not like we're correctly utilizing the rest of the public waterfront we own.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2016, 01:46:04 PM
I'd be in favor of issuing an RFP to rid ourselves of the land underneath the Landing, at market value, and reinvesting the profits into getting some other downtown initiatives off the ground. Wouldn't matter to me if Sleiman or another entity purchased it. Putting it in 100% private hands returns the property to the tax rolls and allows the market and private sector to determine its ultimate fate. Yes, we'd lose some of the public waterfront. However, it's not like we're correctly utilizing the rest of the public waterfront we own.
I question how marketable the site would be to anyone else, given the lease to Sleiman would have to be honored or he would have to be bought out.
Plus Sleiman doesn't have to pay rent to the city because of the parking issue. I don't think the city could end that arrangement for the new owner, by selling.
I don't know how the details on the parking situation would work but letting the private sector work things out would offer an opportunity of a joint venture for redevelopment. Sleiman and the city may not be able to work things out but Sleiman Enterprises has done joint ventures with other development firms before.
QuoteMalls don't work anymore, and I don't think mini-malls ever did.
Malls are dying, the largest ones are teetering on default.
QuoteAmerica's shopping malls are dying...
Last week, one of the country's largest commercial real estate investment trusts ("REITs") – General Growth Properties (GGP) – defaulted on its $144 million loan on suburban Detroit's Lakeside Mall.
Unfortunately, Lakeside's story isn't an unusual one...
The mall's 1.5 million square feet contain about 120 retailers. Like many low- and mid-range malls, it's anchored by a number of familiar (and struggling) department stores like JC Penney, Macy's, and Sears. And it features a number of familiar (and struggling) niche retailers like...
• Teen clothing store Aéropostale, which filed for bankruptcy in May.
• Surf-lifestyle clothing store Pacific Sunwear, which filed for bankruptcy in April.
• And jewelry and trinket seller Claire's, which saw its CEO resign in May and currently has $2.4 billion in debt trading at distressed levels. Claire's new CEO previously headed up bookseller Borders, which filed for bankruptcy in February 2011.
Online retailers – as well as top-tier malls that cater to the wealthy – are squeezing out malls like Lakeside. Meanwhile, a big wave of additional shopping-center debt is coming due soon. As Bloomberg reported...
About $47.5 billion of loans backed by retail properties are set to mature over the next 18 months, data from Bank of America Merrill Lynch show. That's coinciding with a tighter market for commercial-mortgage backed securities, where many such properties are financed.
If the city has anyone leading this discussion, it would be wise to let Sleiman deal with his own mess, his own financing and see how it plays out.
What was rob middleton's op ed piece?
^Oh that. Ok. Seemed like Rob has come to the conclusion of many others have figured out decades ago. I mean, seriously, how many continuous decades has this city been talking about revitalizing downtown now? I'm losing track.