Not surprising. The newspaper isn't doing well enough financially to warrant that kind of real estate.
QuoteThe Florida Times-Union property at 1 Riverside Ave. is on the market for possible sale or redevelopment.
Morris Publishing Group, parent company of the Times-Union and Jacksonville.com, said Saturday that it will consider proposals to sell the 18-acre property on the St. Johns River, or consider possible partnerships to develop the site for mixed use, including offices, a hotel or multifamily housing.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2016-06-04/story/times-union-building-offered-sale-or-redevelopment
Good move for the TU and downtown in general. A printing plant doesn't need to be on the river. They haven't had rail shipments in years, so they don't need to be on the FEC either.
YESSS! This building desperately needs to be replaced. I toured it about a year ago and it feels like stepping into a time machine back to the 50's. The property is also very poorly used currently, with a massive surface parking lot/loading zone that kills the vibe of the riverwalk in that area.
This could be the next big step for Brooklyn. It would be great to see something like the Strand / Peninsula combo go in here with a more mixed use lower levels. You add: highly desirable waterfront condos, apartments and shopping, hundreds of residents and continue to add to the desirability / sustainability of the area. If this is picked up by the right developer, I believe it could be the first step to getting the SkyWay spur and new high rises we've all wanted for the last 10 years. I've got my fingers crossed that this land isn't found to be contaminated like the everywhere else along the river and will move along at light-speed!
I'll be happy to see that surface lot redeveloped into a mixed use area.
Morris does own one of the few FAA registered helipads in downtown. The riverwalk takes a little detour around it.
I say let Flagler buy it and develop it as part of their Jacksonville gateway for the future AAF portal.
QuoteThe newspaper isn't doing well enough financially to warrant that kind of real estate.
They do a LOT more than just the newspaper there. They bought Beson out of his magazines and do quite well with the mags business. They also have the number 1 domain, jacksonville.com run from there too. The space is more than just a dumpy old newspaper.
It is an eyesore though, needs to go, get the junk properties off the river.
I like the building and hope they don't tear it down.
Yeah, the office building is pretty interesting if you're into Mid-Century Modern. The rest of the site, not so much.
Quote from: spuwho on June 04, 2016, 11:19:36 PM
Morris does own one of the few FAA registered helipads in downtown. The riverwalk takes a little detour around it.
I say let Flagler buy it and develop it as part of their Jacksonville gateway for the future AAF portal.
I've always been curious about the history of that heliport. Surely it was used a time or two for something, but sometime as the riverwalk got used more, using it turned into a huge liability.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2016, 10:51:58 AM
Yeah, the office building is pretty interesting if you're into Mid-Century Modern. The rest of the site, not so much.
Maybe they can turn it into flats and then redevelop the rest of the property.
In Orlando, they turned the old city hall building (from the same era) into an Aloft Hotel. So, there should be some possibilities for adaptive reuse, if the market is viable.
^I didn't know the history...that's why it looked strange and so old when I was there lol.
My bad. It was the old Orlando Utilities Commission building, next door to city hall.
(https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/05/36/fa/27/aloft-orlando-downtown.jpg)
http://www.hotelinteractive.com/article.aspx?articleid=24426
I like lakes thinking here... aloft usually loves visually unique older buildings, that don't require much work. I could definitely see them being interested in the TU building. Especially since they are already looking at Brooklyn for their next Jax expansion...
Their hotels in downtown Tampa/St Pete are also good examples of reuse. Probably my favorite hotel brand so I may be biased ;D
This is a VERY key property and if done right could be a strong boost for both DT and Brooklyn. I've never liked anything on this site. i hope they tear down everything ans start new.
I have always thought this should be the site of a Convention Center with on-site hotel. The only downside to that is the Hyatt is some distance away and at 1,000 rooms would normally serve the purpose of being a Convention Hotel.
It is a large site so few developers will be about to tackle it and DT is in weak condition compared to most cities.
Start a new? You can do anything with enough time and money. Like many DT river fill sites the UG holds surprises for the unwary.
Best case: TU sells the building to become a great mixed use development on the river then moves its offices into SunTrust building where it will bring it to almost full occupancy which will then require the parking garage next door to add street level retail. Is it possible?
It would be possible, but I don't know if they'd be able to move their printing operations to the SunTrust building. Everyone else should be able to though. That's a good idea as well UNFurbanist
Makes sense. T-U has, like most newspapers, moved onto focusing on their digital assets; therefore they need a space that's going to attract younger, more tech-savvy personnel. Their current building sure as hell isn't doing that.
I agree with the consensus that tearing it down is the only viable option. The building is way too old and outdated for any other business to want to occupy it.
Quote from: blfair on June 05, 2016, 11:40:38 AM
Quote from: spuwho on June 04, 2016, 11:19:36 PM
Morris does own one of the few FAA registered helipads in downtown. The riverwalk takes a little detour around it.
I say let Flagler buy it and develop it as part of their Jacksonville gateway for the future AAF portal.
I've always been curious about the history of that heliport. Surely it was used a time or two for something, but sometime as the riverwalk got used more, using it turned into a huge liability.
Bfair, here was our last conversation on it.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=9971.0 (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=9971.0)
Carl Cannon, the retired publisher of the Times-Union apparently has maintained the registration for the pad after the T-U was bought out by Morris. With Carl retiring in 2014, and now volunteering on the Sports Council, I would assume that it will be delisted and removed when the property sells.
The kink in the riverwalk will probably dissappear shortly after.
I would like to see that awful surface lot over McCoy's creek removed. A mixed use development that includes a kayak launch.. that'd be cool.
It is such a shame that McCoy's creek is buried like that.
First things first - any chance this thread can be moved to the Brooklyn section since this is where the T-U building is located.
Second, I would love to see this building torn down and McCoy Creek daylighted, then have the Union Army Civil War camp that was once here recreated so the urban core could have another cultural/tourist attraction.
There was a Union Army Civil War camp at the TU site?
My recollection is the Times Union site was the location for Riverside Chevrolet ("Big R") which became Nimnicht when it moved to Blanding. I remember they had wires strung along Riverside Avenue with those colorful whirlybirds spinning in the wind. Kind of ironic, given today the T-U is a regular "car lot" with its Cars & Coffee events :).
I also remember visiting the old T-U newsroom downtown before moving to their current site. It was right out of an old Hollywood movie set with its cramped paper filled open-layout offices and hustle and bustle of clanking typewriters, etc.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2016, 08:36:11 PM
There was a Union Army Civil War camp at the TU site?
As far as I know the exact location isn't known, but it was somewhere on the south bank of McCoy Creek between the St John's River and Park St. I think the unit stationed there was from Michigan (Correction - New York).
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,20765.0.html
Quote from: Kerry on June 05, 2016, 09:47:40 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 05, 2016, 08:36:11 PM
There was a Union Army Civil War camp at the TU site?
As far as I know the exact location isn't known, but it was somewhere on the south bank of McCoy Creek between the St John's River and Park St. I think the unit stationed there was from Michigan (Correction - New York).
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,20765.0.html
The link references SteveW's work researching New York Regiments in Jacksonville.
QuoteTwo possibilities:
a. Could be Fort Foster, immediately south of McCoy's Creek, on top of hill near the present intersection of Magnolia and Jackson Streets in Brooklyn. The hill had, until recently, a beautiful canopy. It is possible that Miles Price, who purchased the surrounding property in the late 18[6]0s and who platted Brooklyn in 1869, may have had a residence in the area, but not sure. He also had a plantation called Gravelly Hill in west Jacksonville around the intersection of Normandy Boulevard and Riverside Park Memorial Cemetery.
b. The best possibility is the Rural Home Plantation of Colonel Lucius Hardee. I believe his plantation house was located immediately north of McCoy's Creek around the Swan Street, Cantee Street, Harper Street area, south of Dennis Street and east of Stockton Street. Even today this area has a beautiful live oak canopy on a slight hill that slopes down to McCoy's Creek. Before the war and after, Lucius Hardee had a reputation for having beautiful and extensive gardens and groves. After the war, he rebuilt as the Honeymoon Plantation and became known for his work in developing a more cold resistive citrus stock that he marketed across the country. Because of his reputation in gardening and citrus, Honeymoon was visited by Harriet Beecher Stowe, who mentioned her visit in Palmetto Leaves. Related to noted General William J. Hardee, Lucius was a die-hard Confederate to the end.
~
Many thanks to all who are helping me solve this mystery! Every time I discover another collection of correspondence from soldiers of the 169th N.Y., the first thing I do is look for letters from Jacksonville to see what I can find out about the camp's location.
Re-examining the clues, I now suspect that the camp was just south of McCoy's Creek, because of the following statement: "Upon the completion of these the regiment was shifted across a creek emptying into the St. John's below the town, and went into camp in a grove of oaks, – a deserted planter's house making excellent regimental headquarters."
At first I thought the following statement, mentioning going over "the river," was referring to McCoy's Creek, but I now believe it is a reference to the St. Johns River, and that the orange grove was in Southbank or San Marco:
"We can get plenty of oranges here, for the picking of them. We have to go over the river and then walk about a half of a mile before we come to the grove."
Whatever it was, it would be nice to recreate it on the T-U site along with daylighting McCoy Creek. The land between Riverside and the water should be open to the public. Private ownership of waterfront land should have never been allowed in the first place. There are lots of urban planning mistakes that need to be undone.
You really think that recreating a civil war camp on that property it the best use?
Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2016, 10:21:23 AM
Private ownership of waterfront land should have never been allowed in the first place.
Really??
Yes and yes. What good is having a river if you have to own a boat to get to it? Imagine if Riverside Ave looked like Bayshore in Tampa.
I also think downtown needs more attractions and this would make a great place for it. The best parcels of land should be reserved for civic life.
Quote from: Kerry on June 05, 2016, 08:15:41 PM
...then have the Union Army Civil War camp that was once here recreated so the urban core could have another cultural/tourist attraction.
Dumb.
Why?
It would be even better if the Southern History Museum and Library would relocate to it. One stop Civil War history.
You should totally buy the land, set up the museum and donate it to the city.
The City and State already has funds available for this type of stuff. No reason for me to be involved.
Yeah, although I'm all for history I have to say that is one of the weirder ideas I've heard. That site needs to be made into a vibrant mixed use development. A civil war camp right in the middle of DTJax (filled with cars, giant bridges and skyscrapers) would not only be strange and out of place but I think it would also be quite useless.
Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2016, 11:56:07 AM
Yes and yes. What good is having a river if you have to own a boat to get to it? Imagine if Riverside Ave looked like Bayshore in Tampa.
I also think downtown needs more attractions and this would make a great place for it. The best parcels of land should be reserved for civic life.
So you're saying the city and/or state should own all 100+ miles of shoreline in the county?
BTW did you find another place to build your Ark when the Shipyards deal didn't work out?
Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2016, 10:21:23 AMPrivate ownership of waterfront land should have never been allowed in the first place. There are lots of urban planning mistakes that need to be undone.
I agree with the second sentence, but I can't agree with the first one. In fact, one of the largest issues with the Landing in the 2003 redevelopment was that the city owned the dirt, and Sleiman owned the building - this is the worst of both worlds. Sleiman couldn't redevelop it, and the city got no tax revenue for the land. There were people that didn't want the land sold, but I can't understand it - if you want to keep the shape, just sell him the dirt under the building, and keep the courtyard as city owned property. Now, I don't know if Sleiman in 2016 is the right guy for the Landing, but that's besides the point. Find me a city on the water where 100% of even the downtown waterfront was private?
While I don't want to create an entirely private riverfront, there has to be a balance. You are correct that you should be able to enjoy the river without a boat and we do need better riverfront parks, this isn't the site IMO. I do like the idea of incorporating McCoy's Creek, and a portion of the development could be public use - that would be cool.
The long ramp up for the riverwalk in front of the site could be an issue in it's present format. I've never been in favor of the ridiculous riverwalk structure over the railroad - what would have been wrong with a regular crossing with arms? I realize there is the issue of someone walking on the bridge, but I'm not sure the structure prevents that - if someone wants to walk across the bridge it's definitely doable.
Is still don't see what is wrong with a recreated Civil War fort near downtown. San Antonio has The Alamo, Charleston has numerous ones, and Sacramento has Sutter's Fort. I could make a list a mile long.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 04, 2016, 08:53:43 PM
Good move for the TU and downtown in general. A printing plant doesn't need to be on the river. They haven't had rail shipments in years, so they don't need to be on the FEC either.
I never realized they got any deliveries by rail but then I looked at an aerial and saw a little disused spur off of the mainline. Cool.
Quote from: Kerry on June 06, 2016, 03:18:35 PM
Is still don't see what is wrong with a recreated Civil War fort near downtown. San Antonio has The Alamo, Charleston has numerous ones, and Sacramento has Sutter's Fort. I could make a list a mile long.
Wait... are you just trolling? That's got to be it.
Well I think the "recreated" part sums it up. The Alamo and all those other sites are in-fact historic and the rest of the city grew around it. Recreating a camp (I'm confused now, is it a fort or a camp? very different things) is just a cheap imitation Disney world-like attempt at something historic. Besides, the money obviously doesn't exist for a project like this because there is currently a real life Spanish American War fort on the SJR near Ft. Caroline which as only raised something like 100k out of 300k to save it from being demolished. Overall I'm sorry but I could never be convinced of this idea. We need more residential and mixed use development to create a vibrant DT!
Quote from: cline on June 06, 2016, 03:24:44 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 04, 2016, 08:53:43 PM
Good move for the TU and downtown in general. A printing plant doesn't need to be on the river. They haven't had rail shipments in years, so they don't need to be on the FEC either.
I never realized they got any deliveries by rail but then I looked at an aerial and saw a little disused spur off of the mainline. Cool.
Yeah, it's been a while but at one time, you could see the box cars under the Acosta while riding the skyway. I believe the Tampa Bay Times plant in St. Petersburg is only major newspaper still getting deliveries by rail now.
Quote from: spuwho on June 05, 2016, 07:01:47 PM
Bfair, here was our last conversation on it.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=9971.0 (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=9971.0)
I forgot all about that thread, and I started it! I still haven't really heard of it ever being used. I get the feeling it was an idea that never took off... pardon the pun.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 06, 2016, 04:07:18 PM
Quote from: cline on June 06, 2016, 03:24:44 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 04, 2016, 08:53:43 PM
Good move for the TU and downtown in general. A printing plant doesn't need to be on the river. They haven't had rail shipments in years, so they don't need to be on the FEC either.
I never realized they got any deliveries by rail but then I looked at an aerial and saw a little disused spur off of the mainline. Cool.
Yeah, it's been a while but at one time, you could see the box cars under the Acosta while riding the skyway. I believe the Tampa Bay Times plant in St. Petersburg is only major newspaper still getting deliveries by rail now.
Freedom House, the printing facility for the Chicago Tribune just north of Ohio Street, still has a Union Pacific local that brings in newsprint and soy based ink. Same local serves the Blommer Chocolate Company periodically.
^My bad. I meant to say major "Florida" newspaper.
Wouldn't it be cool if the Times Union moved into the old JEA building by the federal courthouse? I know it would take a lot of renovating and money, but it would be a huge win for downtown.
They don't have enough employees for those buildings. The old Ambassador Hotel could work though. Plenty of surrounding parking for expansion if needed for trucks to load up / park in. It would fill a major dead spot too.
Do you know the address for the Ambassador Hotel? I want to look it up.
They stated that their first choice is to remain on the property in a joint venture. Presumably any redevelopment there would entail office space so I guess they want to be part of that. I wouldn't blame them if that's the case.
Quote from: Westside Guy on June 07, 2016, 08:56:48 PM
Do you know the address for the Ambassador Hotel? I want to look it up.
420 N Julia St
Jacksonville, FL 32202
QuoteThe old Ambassador Hotel could work though. Plenty of surrounding parking for expansion if needed for trucks to load up / park in. It would fill a major dead spot too.
While we are dreaming, let's tear up the roads downtown and add light rail so we have a way to get around downtown without cars.
so much crazy in this thread. a fake civil war fort in the southern state that saw the fewest battles in the war? brilliant.
Quote from: Burnbabyburn on June 08, 2016, 12:05:43 PM
so much crazy in this thread. a fake civil war fort in the southern state that saw the fewest battles in the war? brilliant.
Haha! I know, right?
Quote from: Burnbabyburn on June 08, 2016, 12:05:43 PM
so much crazy in this thread. a fake civil war fort in the southern state that saw the fewest battles in the war? brilliant.
Do you feel the same way about all the fake animal habitats at the zoo full of non-native species? Jacksonville's history is what it is. Learn to embrace and share it.
Whatever happens with this site, I think daylighting McCoys Creek should be included. Everything may have to be demolished to make that happen though.
McCoys was covered up, long before the FTU came along. The tunnel stretches as far as a block past the Acosta ramps. If you ever go under there at low tide, take note of the old early 20th century archway....
The FTU half
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1011575463_sRu7b-M.jpg)
The older half
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1011574998_4p2PM-M.jpg)
Quote from: Kerry on June 08, 2016, 01:10:46 PM
Quote from: Burnbabyburn on June 08, 2016, 12:05:43 PM
so much crazy in this thread. a fake civil war fort in the southern state that saw the fewest battles in the war? brilliant.
Jacksonville's history is what it is. Learn to embrace and share it.
Tell that to the high schools that are changing their names because of that same history. "Listen, I know the guy that this school was named after was a slave owner and all, but hey, it is what it is so learn to embrace it."
Quote from: menace1069 on June 08, 2016, 02:59:24 PM
Quote from: Kerry on June 08, 2016, 01:10:46 PM
Quote from: Burnbabyburn on June 08, 2016, 12:05:43 PM
so much crazy in this thread. a fake civil war fort in the southern state that saw the fewest battles in the war? brilliant.
Jacksonville's history is what it is. Learn to embrace and share it.
Tell that to the high schools that are changing their names because of that same history. "Listen, I know the guy that this school was named after was a slave owner and all, but hey, it is what it is so learn to embrace it."
Naming something after someone and sharing actual historical events are two different things.
I think Ft. Pitt is a good example of what I invision. I am sure Pittsburg wouldn't give it up for some housing.
Agreed on the residents-that or a Hotel will drive retail better than anything. If there is a developer willing to build either, thats that ideal.
Quote from: jlmann on June 08, 2016, 04:27:57 PM
kerry,
Pittsburgh probably wouldn't, correct. this forum loves to pick an example from seattle, Nashville, Greenville, san fran, wherever and not even consider the context of why they have it there and we don't. its not for lack of ideas.
ft pitt has actual remnants of the fort and other buildings, and there is more than one fort on the site, and its on an iconic point in a much larger city- one that has some actual pedigree, and its in a state park and the events that took place there have historical significance.
that's why ft pitt exists and is an asset to Pittsburgh and the realities of jax is why this shall be the last we ever hear of a fort on the tu site
Umm - those great things didn't exist when Ft. Pitt was recreated. The fort was completely removed in the 1790s except for a small brick shed. Everything else that is there is a recreation that a new generation of Pittsburgers grew up with. I imagine if it was being proposed today that would be people calling it a stupid idea.
A master plan for this site should require restaurant space along the Riverwalk. Ideally they can incorporate a kayak launch and boat docking as well. Aside from the Landing and RCBC it is crazy to think there are no other dining/entertainment options that interact with the Riverwalk.
That is because the water side of Riverside has been reserved for corporations. When they close at 5pm and on weekends there is no one there to patronize these places. If we as a society cared more about our 128 non-working hours than we do our 40 working hours we would have a much different world.
Quote from: Kerry on June 08, 2016, 03:51:21 PM
Quote from: menace1069 on June 08, 2016, 02:59:24 PM
Quote from: Kerry on June 08, 2016, 01:10:46 PM
Quote from: Burnbabyburn on June 08, 2016, 12:05:43 PM
so much crazy in this thread. a fake civil war fort in the southern state that saw the fewest battles in the war? brilliant.
Jacksonville's history is what it is. Learn to embrace and share it.
Tell that to the high schools that are changing their names because of that same history. "Listen, I know the guy that this school was named after was a slave owner and all, but hey, it is what it is so learn to embrace it."
Naming something after someone and sharing actual historical events are two different things.
I think Ft. Pitt is a good example of what I invision. I am sure Pittsburg wouldn't give it up for some housing.
What historical event are your referring to? The fact that there was once a Union army "camp" here? It might be different if there was an actual fort, but apparently it was a camp. The picked a place to park themselves for a while. I could be wrong, but I didn't recall any battles going on in Jacksonville.
This is a perfect example of why we need a living history center. It doesn't have to be world history, American history, or even Florida history. It just has to be Jacksonville's history. Jax has a good story to tell - it just needs to be told. You wonder why more people don't care about Jax; it's because they haven't been given anything to care about. This idea won't mean as much to adult but would make a positive impression on children, and those children grow up to be adults.
There is a pretty decent Southern History museum and library in the Fairfax area that would be much better off in Brooklyn and would be a welcome addition to this type of facility. Maybe it could be a single site for all of Jax's military history.
It's iconic because it exists.
Quote from: Kerry on June 09, 2016, 11:50:35 AM
This is a perfect example of why we need a living history center. It doesn't have to be world history, American history, or even Florida history. It just has to be Jacksonville's history. Jax has a good story to tell - it just needs to be told. You wonder why more people don't care about Jax; it's because they haven't been given anything to care about. This idea won't mean as much to adult but would make a positive impression on children, and those children grow up to be adults.
There is a pretty decent Southern History museum and library in the Fairfax area that would be much better off in Brooklyn and would be a welcome addition to this type of facility. Maybe it could be a single site for all of Jax's military history.
The Currents of Time exhibit offers a great living history of Jax. Unfortunately, it can get lost in the bowels of MOSH.
http://www.visitjacksonville.com/directory/museum-of-science-history-mosh/
Quote from: stephendare on June 09, 2016, 12:10:28 PMWe cut off the spigot that created the entire city in the first place.
Totally unfortunate....
The before and after pictures show it all....
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4064620975_TkC9LHr-800x1000.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4064621030_6x7tD89-800x1000.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4064623249_NStWNQd-800x1000.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4064620998_HHtw2nv-800x1000.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4064621177_SWpMpKn-800x1000.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4064621864_zskx6HD-800x1000.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Neighborhoods/Downtown-Jacksonville-2016/i-KSfRjGm/0/L/DSCF0110-L.jpg)
Jacksonville still has a thriving water tranporation industry...it just relocated.
Quote from: Kerry on June 09, 2016, 12:44:14 PM
Jacksonville still has a thriving water tranporation industry...it just relocated.
One could argue that Jacksonville is still is a thriving community....the life, activity and vibrancy just relocated from the downtown area.
Are you trying to make the point that if container ships were still drpping off goods at the Main St bridge we would still have thriving walkable urbanism downtown? We don't need the industrial economy downtown (although I wouldn't be opposed to it); the experience economy is the foundation of the future. That is what is in short supply in Jax.
No, that's not the argument he was making. Trade and the impact of being a place where rail met the maritime industry was much more than cargo ships. That economy included every thing from wholesale businesses and retail to public seafood markets and restaurants. Downtown was, what it was, because there was a large concentration of people working in multiple industries and business sectors within a compact area. In addition, the compact area was directly connected into other areas of the city, where residents lived, by a 60-mile reliable public transportation system. The density, led to the things people miss today, like the department stores, retail shops and grand hotels. In essence, those things combined to create a place that was an "experience economy".
We can still learn a lot from Paris. The city might be old by 99.9% of what makes it great was built in the last 150 years.
Stephen, where was the Palm Court located?
Isn't Palm Court that place over there east of the Yates building? If not that place certainly fits the fleabag description :o
That's the Palms Hotel
Oh, OK! Thank you!
(https://jaxpsychogeo.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/carlis.jpg)
https://jaxpsychogeo.com/the-center-of-the-city/the-palms-hotel/
Thank you, Finehoe. That was a good read.
You know it's sketchy when it still has a payphone out front!
https://goo.gl/maps/JLQu7HjcKxu
The Mathis Report: Morris family taking steps to redevelop T-U property
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/the-mathis-report-morris-family-taking-steps-to-redevelop-t-u-property
Isn't Steve Wynn in some hot water lately? I don't think we should be putting what looks like a Wynn hotel in Brooklyn
Mixed Feelings on demo'ing the TU building. I'd love to save it, but I'd love to open the creek back up even more.
These aerial view conceptual renderings are always concerning. It looks like a mid-rise/high-rise resort, not really a downtown neighborhood. Just as the TU building is disconnected from much of anything now on foot, so too is this sketch of the plans. Hope the final product includes much tighter pedestrian integration with Brooklyn.
Quote from: Steve on February 01, 2019, 09:56:15 AM
Mixed Feelings on demo'ing the TU building. I'd love to save it, but I'd love to open the creek back up even more.
I think I saw NoOne on his kayak in one of those renderings.
I'm really starting to feel sorry for those Baltimore guys.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/History/Jacksonville-Sanborn-Maps/i-ZTxSfZb/0/fc18ebf8/XL/IMAG0018-XL.jpg)
An old Sanborn showing buildings that had already been built on top of the original creek bed near West Bay and Jefferson streets.
Also, the creek was never fully covered by the TU building. In fact, it's not the original creek bed. The original creek ran where the Lofts of Jefferson Station is being built today. The railroad channelized and relocated it for the development of the Jacksonville Terminal. That relocation included a tunnel under existing industry in the vicinity of the Riverside Viaduct. If you take a kayak under there, you can see the old 1930s arched brick work under there.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Neighborhoods/McCoys-Creek-September-2010/i-WF28sRN/1/b84bfbac/L/P1400856-L.jpg)
Also, the TU office building is a pretty cool mid-century building. Like the old City Hall Annex, I don't necessarily believe redevelopment has to immediately mean demolishing everything and starting over from scratch. Using it as a part of a larger redevelopment of the site looks a lot better than what's shown on those conceptual sketches.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on February 01, 2019, 11:17:52 AMHope the final product includes much tighter pedestrian integration with Brooklyn.
Don't hold your breath. 80% of the Riverside Ave frontage of this parcel is the bridge. Only a small part of the NW corner has a walkable connection to the rest of Brooklyn and I don't see that changing.
Quote from: mtraininjax on June 08, 2016, 02:39:40 AM
QuoteThe old Ambassador Hotel could work though. Plenty of surrounding parking for expansion if needed for trucks to load up / park in. It would fill a major dead spot too.
While we are dreaming, let's tear up the roads downtown and add light rail so we have a way to get around downtown without cars.
We have ways of getting around downtown. I use them all the time. You can walk and you can bike. I see others using skateboards, eScotters, etc.
Has anyone noticed that the windows on the north corner of the T-U building have been removed? I wonder what's going on? Might be prep for interior demo or abatement but I don't see any permits.
Quote from: acme54321 on April 14, 2020, 08:53:59 PM
Has anyone noticed that the windows on the north corner of the T-U building have been removed? I wonder what's going on? Might be prep for interior demo or abatement but I don't see any permits.
"Permits?! Permits!? We don't need to stinking permits!!"
(Admit it, you were thinking it.)
Windows missing? Lol what? Are they at least boarded up? That's a good way to quickly ruin a prefectly fine building.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 14, 2020, 09:58:44 PM
Windows missing? Lol what? Are they at least boarded up? That's a good way to quickly ruin a prefectly fine building.
Yes, one corner window per floor one above the other removed and boarded up. Also one window. On the opposite corner on the top floor.
These:
(https://i.ibb.co/WWd9Frd/Screenshot-20200414-223659.png)
First look at the proposed Fuqua development.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-start-public-review-of-dollar151m-redevelopment-of-former-times-union-campus
QuoteAtlanta developer Jeff Fuqua proposes to start construction in 2022 of the $151.61 million retail, residential and park redevelopment at 1 Riverside Ave. in Brooklyn.
The project, in two phases, would be completed in 2026.
The DIA expects Phase 1 to start next year for completion in 2024 and comprise 301 apartments, 47,400 square feet of retail space and a 38,750-square-foot organic grocer.
Phase 2 is shown to begin in 2024 for completion in 2026 to develop another 15,000 square feet of retail space and 125 apartments.
Apartment rental rates are listed at $1,400 to $3,150. The apartments are designed as five- and six-story structures, including one above retail space.
Maybe it's because of the complete lack of architectural detail, but this feels... rather underwhelming? It gives off the Spandrel vibe of "this could really go anywhere, but we had our hands on this one."
$30 million REV grant passes unanimously.
Handing 'em out like candy in Brooklyn.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-council-approves-dollar31-59-million-incentives-deal-for-one-riverside
Interesting that the $750k forgivable loan, the $7.76M park purchase, and the park infrastructure are not counted as part of the incentives package. The land beyond the relocated creek will be completely blocked in by the elevated pedestrian bridge, Riverside avenue flyover, the train tracks, and the creek, but the city is paying $1.6M an acre and performing all remediation and infrastructure to turn it into an asset for the development.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on November 24, 2021, 12:49:50 PM
Interesting that the $750k forgivable loan, the $7.76M park purchase, and the park infrastructure are not counted as part of the incentives package. The land beyond the relocated creek will be completely blocked in by the elevated pedestrian bridge, Riverside avenue flyover, the train tracks, and the creek, but the city is paying $1.6M an acre and performing all remediation and infrastructure to turn it into an asset for the development.
^^^ are you referring to the park space and related improvements which will connect to the Emerald Trail?
If so, that is an asset for the entire county. A more vibrant, connected system of parks which improves QOL for the inner city is a win no matter your residential address.
Holy crap, the city is giving them $7.76M for the park land? Wtf.
Quote from: acme54321 on November 24, 2021, 10:19:52 PM
Holy crap, the city is giving them $7.76M for the park land? Wtf.
well it is riverfront land privately owned that will be turned over to the City
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 26, 2021, 01:55:21 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on November 24, 2021, 10:19:52 PM
Holy crap, the city is giving them $7.76M for the park land? Wtf.
well it is riverfront land privately owned that will be turned over to the City
If it's so valuable why is the developer so eager to give it up?
Quote from: acme54321 on November 28, 2021, 08:37:27 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 26, 2021, 01:55:21 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on November 24, 2021, 10:19:52 PM
Holy crap, the city is giving them $7.76M for the park land? Wtf.
well it is riverfront land privately owned that will be turned over to the City
If it's so valuable why is the developer so eager to give it up?
its part of the approval deal
Ron Littlepage would be happy with " The Deal".
Me too.
Public space/ park land.
McCoys creek mouth at the River, currently underneath the FTU building,funneled through a below ground giant culvert, to be opened up to the sky, and widened to 80 feet.
Finally.
Whole Foods to One Riverside:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/whole-foods-market-to-anchor-one-riverside-in-brooklyn
Quote from: Steve on April 29, 2022, 03:58:29 PM
Whole Foods to One Riverside:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/whole-foods-market-to-anchor-one-riverside-in-brooklyn
Knee jerk reaction:
This is going to be transformational for Brooklyn, and possibly LaVilla.
Build the damn Skyway station.
Holy shit... would love to have Trader Joe's nearby too
Worst kept secret. We wanted to break the news a few months ago. Glad it's finally out.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 29, 2022, 04:04:14 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 29, 2022, 03:58:29 PM
Whole Foods to One Riverside:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/whole-foods-market-to-anchor-one-riverside-in-brooklyn
Knee jerk reaction:
This is going to be transformational for Brooklyn, and possibly LaVilla.
Build the damn Skyway station.
Transformational? Theres already a fresh market across the street.
Whole Foods is quite a catch for Brooklyn/Riverside. Definitely should help make the DT area more attractive for residents. It might take a lot of wind out of the sails for the plans for one at the old Independent Life building though. I was always skeptical of that anyway.
I just read where Publix is going into E-Town. That is a relatively isolated development so Publix is likely relying almost exclusively on E-Town residents. Build-out there is reported at 2,500 units. At 2.5 residents a unit, it would appear a Publix could thus be supported by about population of about 6,250.
With a Publix, Fresh Market and now a Whole Foods in close proximity to each other and based on the above calculation, it would appear the area would need about 18,750 persons to live around these stores.
Keep in mind there is another Publix at the south end of Riverside-Avondale at Roosevelt and San Juan to siphon off a part of those residents.
So, are, or will, there be that many residents in the area to support these stores? Anyone have statistics on this?
Early in my career, I did a lot of site selection and conceptual shopping center planning for Publix anchored projects. Now things may have changed but back then, the magic number (without jumping into demographics) was around 20,000 residents.
According to marketing material for the shopping center across the street, there are 80,000 people living within a 3 mile radius and the daytime population in the same area is 192,000. These places aren't coming in to just cater to downtown and Brooklyn residents. Riverside Avenue/Broad/Jefferson, etc. is a centralized spine through the urban core with easy access to I-95 and I-10. Any entity locating here is doing so to serve the entire urban core. If the DIA were opportunistic, we'd be designating thoroughfares like this as retail streets and making sure the design of infill would be to the highest pedestrian scale standards.
You have a similar scenario playing out of SR 9B. Don't think for one minute that the Publix going in there is only doing so to serve the E-Town community. That store will have access and direct visibility to 56,500 cars and trucks at day. They'll take a Bartram Park-to-Town Center commuter's money just as fast as someone living three blocks away.
^ The reason I figured the E-town Publix would cater to mostly those residents is that there are so many other Publix-es and competitive stores in adjacent areas such as on Baymeadows. Also, all those 9B travelers likely have a Publix at either their ultimate destinations or origin (e.g. Town Center, Nocatee or Durbin)so no need to make a pit stop at E-town.
Quote from: acme54321 on April 29, 2022, 08:57:53 PM
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 29, 2022, 04:04:14 PM
Quote from: Steve on April 29, 2022, 03:58:29 PM
Whole Foods to One Riverside:
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/whole-foods-market-to-anchor-one-riverside-in-brooklyn
Knee jerk reaction:
This is going to be transformational for Brooklyn, and possibly LaVilla.
Build the damn Skyway station.
Transformational? Theres already a fresh market across the street.
Totally different leagues in terms of being a destination anchor that attracts residents in the demographic that we're looking for to fill some of these proposed new residential developments in the urban core (One Riverside, LaVilla Townhomes, Landing residential, etc.).
You look at the effect Whole Foods has had on Midtown Atlanta, or downtown Nashville, or downtown Indy, or Midtown Tampa, or even Columbus Circle in NYC, and I don't think transformational is an exaggeration at all.
Whole Foods setting up shop in Brooklyn sends a strong signal to outside developers that the area is on the rise.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2022, 08:56:11 AM
If the DIA were opportunistic, we'd be designating thoroughfares like this as retail streets and making sure the design of infill would be to the highest pedestrian scale standards.
How much faith do you have that the DIA is thinking about the area in this way? Between this project, McCoy's Creek/Emerald Trail, the Hub, the Trevato properties, FIS's retail frontage, Unity Plaza, the proposed Food Hall, etc, there's so much potential there.
Also, based on your past experience, how do you think this project effects the viability/likelihood of a grocer (like Publix/Greenwise) actually opening up shop in the CBD over the next decade?
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 30, 2022, 01:51:30 PM
^ The reason I figured the E-town Publix would cater to mostly those residents is that there are so many other Publix-es and competitive stores in adjacent areas such as on Baymeadows. Also, all those 9B travelers likely have a Publix at either their ultimate destinations or origin (e.g. Town Center, Nocatee or Durbin)so no need to make a pit stop at E-town.
There's no Publix on US 1 but several residential developments being built between Old St. Augustine Road and CR 210 for example. Reaching an existing Publix from this particular fast growing area would require the driver to extend their commute into already congested areas. Getting to places like the Nocatee or Bartram Park Publixs would add several miles to those trips. However, reaching anything from US 1 to E-Town would only require a quick limited access hop onto (or off -- if already using it) SR 9B. Thus, it's not unrealistic to see that commercial development at the SR 9B /E-Town interchange can easily serve a larger population than what is proposed in E-Town itself.
Quote from: Ken_FSU on April 30, 2022, 02:01:20 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2022, 08:56:11 AM
If the DIA were opportunistic, we'd be designating thoroughfares like this as retail streets and making sure the design of infill would be to the highest pedestrian scale standards.
How much faith do you have that the DIA is thinking about the area in this way? Between this project, McCoy's Creek/Emerald Trail, the Hub, the Trevato properties, FIS's retail frontage, Unity Plaza, the proposed Food Hall, etc, there's so much potential there.
I don't have much faith as Riverside Avenue has been made to look as suburban as Town Center Parkway in recent years and there's been very little focus on the potential of Broad and Jefferson or State and Union, as extensions of regional corridors that could serve both downtown residents and commuters using them.
QuoteAlso, based on your past experience, how do you think this project effects the viability/likelihood of a grocer (like Publix/Greenwise) actually opening up shop in the CBD over the next decade?
This is about as close to the CBD as you can get without actually being in the CBD. I don't see a Publix/Greenwise, etc. opening any time soon in the area bounded by Jefferson, State/Union, Hogans Creek and McCoys Creek/St. Johns River. Perhaps a small bodega of some sorts but not Publix/Greenwise. Something like that will need to be positioned to a corridor that is easily accessible and visible to a population much larger than what's in the Northbank alone.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2022, 06:11:40 PM
Quote from: jaxlongtimer on April 30, 2022, 01:51:30 PM
^ The reason I figured the E-town Publix would cater to mostly those residents is that there are so many other Publix-es and competitive stores in adjacent areas such as on Baymeadows. Also, all those 9B travelers likely have a Publix at either their ultimate destinations or origin (e.g. Town Center, Nocatee or Durbin)so no need to make a pit stop at E-town.
There's no Publix on US 1 but several residential developments being built between Old St. Augustine Road and CR 210 for example. Reaching an existing Publix from this particular fast growing area would require the driver to extend their commute into already congested areas. Getting to places like the Nocatee or Bartram Park Publixs would add several miles to those trips. However, reaching anything from US 1 to E-Town would only require a quick limited access hop onto (or off -- if already using it) SR 9B. Thus, it's not unrealistic to see that commercial development at the SR 9B /E-Town interchange can easily serve a larger population than what is proposed in E-Town itself.
Not to belabor the point(but I will, respectively 8).
By far, the closest Publixes to US 1 in the area you speak of are on Race Track road at Durbin, Beachwalk on 210 and St. Augustine Road at Bartram Park. They are all close enough (as little as 1 mile, no more than about 2.75 miles) to US 1 that a little traffic should not be an issue. From the approximate midpoint on US 1 of the area you refer to, I see at least 5 miles to E-Town.
When E-Town is completed, given there is only one main road through it, that won't remain less congested for long either. Psychologically, I also don't believe most people (other than long distance tourists, replenishing travel supplies, which are not likely to frequent 9B) would exit a high speed interstate just to shop at Publix which is more of a local road/convenience stop, not a store most would travel the interstate to get to outside of a rural area.
If residential density increases adequately on US 1, I would expect Publix to add another store directly on it at some point rather than relying on these other stores.
I have a property in the vicinity. If your trip takes you down SR 9B and not in the direction of any of those other locations, then the trip to a store not located along that trip is out of the way. For example, Beachwalk on 210 is another county. It's quicker to drive to several locations in Duval County if Publix is where you desire to go. If time and convenience is more important than the chain name, you end up going to a competitor.
As the area continues to rapidly grow, the opportunity for additional stores catering to the larger population creates itself. If it's not them, it will be the competition and then that's a potential market area they've lost out on. But make no doubt about it, no one is building a store that size and next to a full fledged interchange with the expectation that it is only to serve a limited captive audience. When E-Town is completed, you still won't have to drive through E-Town to reach that store at 9B. That interchange is set up to allow for commercial development that can also cater to the visibility and traffic created by SR 9B. If that were not important, Publix would be building in the middle of E-Town, far and away from immediate access and visual exposure to SR 9B traffic.
It will be no different from me getting coffee at Starbucks or gas from TA at the CR 210 interchange when driving to/from Central Florida. These places aren't necessarily opening to serve a specific subdivision or development. The market base they are setting up to cater to is much larger, at least that was the case when I worked on potential locations for their stores.
To bring this back to downtown Jacksonville, there's a reason McDonalds opened up on State and Union, instead of a random low volume intersection like Laura and Adams. There was a reason that Winn-Dixie moved from Ocean and Monroe to Union Street years ago. The higher volume streets allow for these businesses to access regional trips as well as the downtown market base. So if the DIA really wants to build a retail corridor effectively and efficiently, an important part of making that happen would be to look outside of the downtown silo and see how various corridors work regionally and take advantage of these market dynamics and site selection opportunities. There are numbers out there that can easily be obtained to support this, both in urban and suburban locations.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2022, 11:15:48 PM
I have a property in the vicinity. If your trip takes you down SR 9B and not in the direction of any of those other locations, then the trip to a store not located along that trip is out of the way. For example, Beachwalk on 210 is another county. It's quicker to drive to several locations in Duval County if Publix is where you desire to go. If time and convenience is more important than the chain name, you end up going to a competitor.
As the area continues to rapidly grow, the opportunity for additional stores catering to the larger population creates itself. If it's not them, it will be the competition and then that's a potential market area they've lost out on. But make no doubt about it, no one is building a store that size and next to a full fledged interchange with the expectation that it is only to serve a limited captive audience. When E-Town is completed, you still won't have to drive through E-Town to reach that store at 9B. That interchange is set up to allow for commercial development that can also cater to the visibility and traffic created by SR 9B. If that were not important, Publix would be building in the middle of E-Town, far and away from immediate access and visual exposure to SR 9B traffic.
It will be no different from me getting coffee at Starbucks or gas from TA at the CR 210 interchange when driving to/from Central Florida. These places aren't necessarily opening to serve a specific subdivision or development. The market base they are setting up to cater to is much larger, at least that was the case when I worked on potential locations for their stores.
To bring this back to downtown Jacksonville, there's a reason McDonalds opened up on State and Union, instead of a random low volume intersection like Laura and Adams. There was a reason that Winn-Dixie moved from Ocean and Monroe to Union Street years ago. The higher volume streets allow for these businesses to access regional trips as well as the downtown market base. So if the DIA really wants to build a retail corridor effectively and efficiently, an important part of making that happen would be to look outside of the downtown silo and see how various corridors work regionally and take advantage of these market dynamics and site selection opportunities. There are numbers out there that can easily be obtained to support this, both in urban and suburban locations.
To further expand, the retail businesses within Brooklyn don't have a trade area of 1 mile, and aren't primarily serving the few hundred housing units located within the neighborhood's borders. Are those Brooklyn-specific housing units helpful? Yes, but they alone can't sustain a grocery store like a Fresh Market that has an average volume of around $10mm in annual sales and about 230-250 transactions a day.
When looking at purchasing data, and accounting for the hours where the existing daytime population can be subtracted out, customers are coming from a large swath of zip codes, that are extending far beyond the 32202 zip code, due to the interstate highway access. The corridor is pulling significant purchasing power from the 32210, 32207, 32206, 32204, 32209 and 32254 zip codes. Spend a few days at Chipotle and see how many Edwards Waters students are picking up burrito bowls in the evening.
The Broad/Jefferson (particularly Broad); State/Union; and Adams Street corridors should all be treated as primary retail streets from a zoning and incentive perspective in order to benefit from the same type of retail renaissance happening in Brooklyn.
The Wildlight and ETown Publix shopping centers are no different. Those locations are positioned to benefit from the immediate trade area, as well as a much wider trade area due to the traffic patterns (more specifically, capturing more evening traffic flow from homebound commuters).