JEA's Greenland Energy Center coming to the Southside
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5447-map_greenland_combined-ne-lg.jpg)
Renderings of JEA's Greenland Energy Center, a proposed $600 million natural gas plant.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/837
Natural gas is cleaner than coal... perhaps we can drill for it in the Gulf of Mexico rather than importing.
I believe Natural Gas comes from Texas via Pipeline with Booster stations every 600 miles, Florida Gas Transmission (used to be a affiliated with Enron?), not sure if they would be the supplier.
$600 million buys about 40,000 houses solar panels. That combined with the purchase of the excess energy those homes generated each month. Would we really need this plant built then? How about a nice park instead.
Exactly Bike.
Quote from: Bike Jax on July 09, 2008, 12:06:20 PM
$600 million buys about 40,000 houses solar panels. That combined with the purchase of the excess energy those homes generated each month. Would we really need this plant built then? How about a nice park instead.
Perhaps... It will produce 553 MW of electricity... How much will 600 mil of solar panels on houses generate. I am all for it if they are equal.
The average cost of PV (solar) systems is about $9-$10 per watt (according to this source: http://www.solar-electric.com/solar_system_costs.htm). That number sounds really low and has to include state and/or federal incentives but we'll go with it.
To get 553 MW of solar power it would cost about $5.53 million.
The site referenced above also states that a PV system for the average household would cost about $40,000.
$600 million could therefore provide PV systems for 15,000 homes.
How many homes are ther in Jax?
South Florida builds a huge solar plant, Jax is going for natural gas. Oh well.
An actual solar array is much more expensive to build than a natural gas plant. I can't speak for the maintenance though. At first thought, a solar array would be cheaper to maintain but there are still gobs of mechanics, necessary cleaning, and replacement of pricey panels. Furthermore, they're more sensitive to storm damage.
Quote from: Jason on July 09, 2008, 01:33:35 PM
Furthermore, they're more sensitive to storm damage.
Based solely on that, it makes the fact that they're building one in South Florida seem kind of silly. Furthermore, the fact that they're not building one here is even more absurd. Southern Florida has much more exposure to hurricanes than northern Florida.
I'm sure there's plenty more to it. Maybe Natural Gas is still the cheaper and more viable alternative for the market?
It offers more bang for the buck right now, definitely. But solar power technology is getting cheaper by the day and it will only be a matter of time before every household in America is enjoying its potential, IMO.
Another thing to consider with solar and the numbers I shared above is that those figures assumed a straight PV system without batteries. In other words, when the sun goes down at night the panels produce no power. That is where JEA comes in and makes up the difference. Theoretically, during the day when your panels are pumping out the power, the excess "juice" is fed back to JEA thereby turning your meter backwards. At night when JEA starts feeding the power back to you the meter turns forwards again. Hopefully the solar system has given enough power to the power company during the day and will simply be taking it back at night and you won't be billed for nightly power consumption.
If you add batteries to your home based PV system you'll be increasing the cost substantially but at the same time nearly eliminating the need for a connection to JEA.
Now, a HUGE benefit of solar power (especially in Florida) is that when a hurricane does come through you will have emergency power automatically without keeping the neighbors up all night with a noisy generator that you can't get gas for anyways. That, of course, assumes that the storm didn't damage the panels.
Today, PV systems are a luxury but tomorrow they will likely be a necessity.
Quote from: Doctor_K on July 09, 2008, 01:40:11 PM
Quote from: Jason on July 09, 2008, 01:33:35 PM
Furthermore, they're more sensitive to storm damage.
I'm sure there's plenty more to it. Maybe Natural Gas is still the cheaper and more viable alternative for the market?
That is in fact the case... add reliability to the mix and there really is not an alternative. I am all for private solar panels and even more likely mounting panels on federal and state facilities. The rooftops of warehouses, malls, etc would be perfect places for large arrays of panels.
I think the physical footprint of a solar plant would be much larger than a conventional plant also... I would hate to see the countryside covered in mirrors...
^ I think you could be right about at solar array taking up more physical space.
Here are some images of power company scale Solar systems...
Quote
(http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/p/2008/GVRenderingv1_550x349.jpg)
Supersize solar powerMay 26, 2008 6:00 AM PDT
Caption text by Martin LaMonicaElsa
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Concentrating photovoltaics, in which light is focused on solar cells that generate electricity, is being considered by utilities as well. The technology has been around for many years, but a number of companies are trying to improve on it with higher levels of light concentration and cheaper manufacturing.
This artist's rendering shows a concentrating photovoltaic CarouSol system from start-up GreenVolts, which has paired with PG&E to build 2 megawatts in Tracy, Calif., by the end of 2008.
Each CarouSol includes an array of power units on a platform rotating on two axes to follow the sun in the sky. Mirrors on the units concentrate the energy of 625 suns onto the solar cells, according to the company. The modular, snap-together systems sit close to the ground to keep maintenance simple. Tests have shown the CarouSol to withstand winds of 43 miles per hour. It's also supposed to provide energy at half the cost of more traditional systems.
Credit: GreenVolts
Quote(http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/p/2008/closeandfar_550x368.jpg)
Supersize solar powerMay 26, 2008 6:00 AM PDT
Caption text by Martin LaMonicaElsa
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Concentrating solar power systems can lower the cost per kilowatt-hour with lenses, mirrors, dishes, and tracking systems to improve energy output. Concentrating photovoltaic systems from SolFocus, shown here, use lenses or mirrors to focus sunlight onto high-efficiency cells. They can convert up to 40 percent of light into electricity, according to the company. And such installations could reach utility scale of 5 to 50 megawatts or more.
Solar concentrators are increasingly being explored for large, centralized solar farms where land is ample. SolFocus is building a 3-megawatt solar plant in the south of Spain at Castilla LaMancha.
Credit: SolFocus
Quote(http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/ne/p/2008/NellisAfinal043_550x365.jpg)
Supersize solar powerMay 26, 2008 6:00 AM PDT
Caption text by Martin LaMonicaElsa
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Flat photovoltaic panels arguably have a lead on solar thermal power plant installations.
Although not used by a utility, this 14-megawatt farm provides up to one-fourth of the electricity at Nellis Air Force Base. The project involves equipment made by SunPower and is financed by MMA Renewable Ventures. Tracking systems moving the panels to face the direction of the sun are built to boost electrical output by one-third. Currently the largest U.S. solar electric installation, the Nevada plant comprises more than 72,000 panels and 140 acres.
Five SunPower systems owned by General Electric Energy Financial Services are set to generate 8 megawatts in California by the end of 2008. And Duke Energy recently signed on to build a 15-megawatt plant with flat solar PV panels, which would be the biggest. Unlike a rooftop solar panel installation, these panels have mounting systems that track the sun during the day.
Credit: MMA Renewable Ventures/SunPower
Clearly, it takes more area to produce power using PV systems than it does to produce the same power via natural gas reactors.
QuoteThis artist's rendering shows a concentrating photovoltaic CarouSol system from start-up GreenVolts, which has paired with PG&E to build 2 megawatts in Tracy, Calif., by the end of 2008.
QuoteCurrently the largest U.S. solar electric installation, the Nevada plant comprises more than 72,000 panels and 140 acres.
140 acres to produce 14 MW!?! Man, at that rate it would take 5,530 acres of solar panels to produce the 553 MW that JEA's new plant will produce.
Quote5,530 acres of solar panels to produce the 553 MW that JEA's new plant will produce.
That could be a problem.
This reality makes solar a complement to traditional electricity generation, not a replacement. Seems more suited for individual homes, businesses, or governments. Seems to me that wind power would fall into the same category. Large tracts of land covered in windmills to generate the same power as a traditional plant.
Exactly. On a small scale solar make a lot of sence but on a power company scale, not so much.
Note that there are other technologies out there that are more compact or use the solar radiation to generate a steam driven turbine and can take up less space, however, they still require vast amounts of land and are more expensive to implement and maintain.
Agree.
This discussion makes me start to wonder, though, how much the technology of both PV/Solar and Wind will advance and evolve in the next 20 years or so. Makes me excited to see what's coming next!
The technology is there, it just needs to be implemented. I've seen gobs of shows on Discovery, TLC, and History channels touting gobs of revolutionary new technologies. It just takes tons of money and tons of time to get them out of the lab an into mass use.
When you get a free moment just try Googling "solar technology" or "future energy". You'll be amazed.
No doubt the technology is there but it still is not cost effective enough nor is it efficient enough to replace conventional sources. Coal, oil, and gas will continue for the forseeable future to be the generator of choice for the vast majority of humans on this planet...
i want to work there and be part of the start up crew i work at a 550 mw combine cycle plant and want to be down south
There should be state and federal tax credits to reimburse at least 75% cost of a typical residential or small business installation. A four to eight panel system with batteries and inverter to supply at least 75% of electricity used. Same for the "plug in" electric car. This is where "stimulus" money should be spent. This would IMMEDIATLY reduce the need for foreign oil, create jobs and stimulate research and competition in this field.
With so much coal available, it seems silly not to use it, or Nuclear over more difficult to reach natural gas. Anyone heard about Peak oil reserves being reached? All the easy energy has been found, newer deposits (oil and nat gas) will require more drilling and more expenses.
Again, coal is easier to find, we know where it is and to mine it as well. If we can spend 3 trillion bucks in Iraq, we can figure out ways to clean coal emissions.
QuoteJEA power plant project moves forward
Two natural gas-powered turbines to cost $205 million
The recession pushed back building plans for the Greenland Energy Center, but now the Jacksonville power project is moving forward with a cheaper price tag.
Two natural gas-powered combustion turbines, each able to generate 177 megawatts, will cost JEA $205 million â€" about $45 million below previous estimates, the city-owned utility said last week.
Full article:
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-06-22/story/jea_power_plant_project_moves_forward
In the short term, this is good news that the plant is moving forward because it will add redundancy and flexibility to the grid. The bad news is that the sole reason this plant is necessary is because of the sprawl that has taken place in southern Duval and northern St. Johns. This plant will only aid future development, IMO.
Still, we should brace for a likely rate hike. JEA should still be at the lower end when compared to other utilities, but not as low as they are today.
They closed the driving range too early. It is sitting there rotting. Damn you JEA!!!
In Oklahoma and Texas alone, there must be 6000 torches burning off the NG from the well fields. One would think we'd be looking for a way to capture ALL of it for use. Any JEA types on here know if they'll capture the exhust heat for a steam turbine?
As for the Coal Quesiton, I'm all for it if we could burn Anthracite (clean) coal. Otherwise, we'd need to build the plant in Hilliard or maybe Kings Bay.
OCKLAWAHA
JEA has espressed possible nuclear power in the future. I'd expect that plant to be built probably along the St. Mary's River in Baker County or Charlton County, GA.
With all the timber located in and around the First Coast region, I wonder whether JEA has considered cellulosic biomass as a fuel source.
I wonder if a plasma arc system would work here in Jax. Hit two birds with one stone. The St Lucie plant is working, though at a reduced capacity thanks in part to the economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_arc_waste_disposal
QuoteJEA has espressed possible nuclear power in the future. I'd expect that plant to be built probably along the St. Mary's River in Baker County or Charlton County, GA.
JEA wants nuclear, just can't get it.
QuoteIn Oklahoma and Texas alone, there must be 6000 torches burning off the NG from the well fields. One would think we'd be looking for a way to capture ALL of it for use. Any JEA types on here know if they'll capture the exhust heat for a steam turbine?
I'm pretty sure they are the three stage generators. Under that assumption, yes a gas turbine will turn a generator then the exhaust blast from the first turbine turns a second second generator and the leftover heat from the exhaust is used to produce steam to turn a third generator.
JEA is involved in talks with Rayonier on a biomass plant. I know this from my pals in Rayonier. However, you do not get the same amount of power from the biomass that you get from Natural Gas.
So, what;s the status/progress of the power plant?
Why have we all forgotten about wind? You don't need those inefficient and massive three-winged turbines to get electricity, during the night when no solar panel is putting out anything. Have you guys seen this design: http://www.greengeek.ca/magnetic-levitation-residential-wind-turbines/
We get a lot of flung-off storms from hurricanes, but not really any direct contact with the eye. But you don't even really need that kind of gale-force wind to turn one of these.
Does anyone know what an average home in Jax (specifically) uses in terms of kWh/month?
From the link:
QuoteMag-Wind has developed a magnetically-levitated vertical-axis wind turbine for residential applications. The use of magnetic levitation reduces friction, as well as that horrible squeaking sound associated with roof-mounted wind vents. The MW-1100, a Canadian invention, is reportedly able to generate the same electrical output from it’s 4 foot sweep as a much larger blade turbine.
The MW-1100 is capable of outputting 1,100 kWh per month with an average windspeed of 13mph, and has a cut-in speed of less than 5mph. It has a top speed of over 100mph, meaning it will easily handle most storms and winds. At optimal output, over 10 years the electricity produced by the MW-1100 turbine is 3.5 cents per kWh. In terms of financial payback, if your current electrical bill is $300 per month or more, the MW-1100 wind turbine will pay for itself in 3 years or less.
The units were planned to be available in spring of 2006, but so far there’s no word on their availablility.
Good article in the Oct 8 week's Business Week magazine about Natural Gas. Did you know that the US, according the Colorado School of Mines, holds, mind you, holds, 1.8 TRILLION CUBIC FEET of Natural Gas? This is the equivalent of 320 billion barrels of oil, more than the Saudi's hold in 264 billion barrels.
What many utilities are discussing is using a gas turbine next to a wind farm or solar farm for when wind dies down or when there are cloudy days, gas can be used, as another clean form of energy to compliment the green forms, at a much lower cost. Even FPL realizes this as a valuable solution, they are building a solar thermal power plant that will be the 2nd largest in the US, next to an existing gas fired plan to help compensate for the cloudy days.
The cost of natural gas has come back down and is going lower as they find more reserves here in the US. It is a great resource that the US can use to fight back oil costs in business and utilities, yet not many are willing to give up on coal. We shall see the reluctance when the Cap and Trade issues are announced in more details.
Do you know where FPL plans to build the the solar thermal plant?
IMO, having multiple forms of power generation at a single site is a win/win. Aside from that, promoting end user power generation is the future.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on July 10, 2008, 09:21:55 AM.............. Seems to me that wind power would fall into the same category. Large tracts of land covered in windmills to generate the same power as a traditional plant............
When the wind blows. Wife drove by, twice, the wind farm north of Indianapolis a couple of weeks aago and none of the blades were turning. I noticed a few years ago visiting San Francisco that the wind farm there has some with turning blades, some that were not turning and some that had blades missing.
Again, inefficient designs, Overstreet.
On a recent flight from New Hampshire, I saw a wind farm of about 10 windmills. It was over either NH or MA. They need to make those state lines bigger so you can see them from the sky.
It was a beautiful sight and all seemed to be working well. The terrain was hilly, so I presume they were all mounted atop those hills. A noreaster had just pushed through and the winds were about 12 -15 knots.
Solar/wind/wave. The technologies are coming. Natural gas will help us cross the chasm.
Wow, according to Times Union, we used up 3250 MW of electricity this morning. Adding the numbers in this page http://www.jea.com/about/news/powerplants.asp the entire JEA system produces 2975 MW. That means we've been importing power from other states! We really need this plant!
^ That's going to be an extreme anomaly because of the 20-year cold snap combined with all of Florida's inefficient electric heaters.
But yes, the new plant is needed regardless - especially with all the future growth still to come in the Southside and St Johns County.
Spot on Joe. This cold weather is a bit of a fluke.
Any news on if construction has started on the new plant?
According to Channel 4 tonight, coldest winter in 160 years or basically the history of Jax with 11 of 12 nights of below freezing weather. I hope it killed a few roaches and fleas.
Quote from: Jason on January 12, 2010, 09:09:19 AM
Any news on if construction has started on the new plant?
Yes it has. When driving down Philips and you pass under the large transmission, lines, look to the left(driving south) or right (driving north), you can see plenty of dirt moved and construction equipment.
Large construction cranes are on site and appears some of the steel has been erected on the site.
This is all I could see from Philips Hwy today, but it is definetly in full swing.
I'm curious to see what this will look like from 1 and I95.
Yes another fossil fuel plant. Just what we needed in 2010.
Gee..............will the BRT reach into there?
QuoteJEA drops park plan at new Jacksonville power plant
There must be great places on Jacksonville's Southside to spend $1 million helping parks.
But JEA has decided a power plant isn't one of them.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-02-14/story/jea-drops-park-plan-new-jacksonville-power-plant
Every time I see the thread title "Greenland Rd" I'm thinking of some new, innovative power plant.
Ah well. At least Maine is getting into the business of renewable, war free energy.
http://www.pressherald.com/business/tidal-power-prototype-passes-all-tests_2011-03-08.html
QuoteThe Ocean Renewable unit self-starts when the current reaches 2 knots and produces increasing amounts of electricity as the tidal currents reach 6 knots. All told, the unit produces power for 20 to 21 hours a day as the tide comes in and goes out, the company said.
Ocean Renewable needs approval from the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to proceed with its plans. The company expects to file its final application for its commercial turbine off Eastport within four to six weeks, Sauer said.
Ocean Renewable holds permits for three sites in the area, one of the world's best tidal sites, where twice a day the tide rises and falls 20 feet.
Another tidal power company, New York-based Verdant Power, hopes this year to put new underwater turbines in New York City's East River, where they would connect to the grid.
If only there were some oceanic current that moved about 6 - 8 knots where we could harness a bit of power.
... if only. (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=16713781)
I think the only limitation to using the Gulf Stream (I assume that is the current you're referring to) is that it is about 62 miles east of Mayport. While that distance is not so much a problem at 12.47kv it still adds to logistical complications.
IMO, the tech probably could still be a viable addition to our overall power generation system.