Quote(http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/articles/06_27_08/5a.jpg)
An important step toward the July 2011 opening of the Jacksonville Transportation Center (JTC) took place Thursday afternoon. That’s when the Downtown Development Review Board (DDRB) of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission (JEDC) approved the conceptual design of the first phase of the project.
The project will mean a significant design change and improvements to the existing Skyway station adjacent to the Osborn Center. When complete, the first phase will have added two Bus Rapid Transit stations, 12,000 square feet of retail space and a three-story parking garage.
Phase 1 also includes 95,000 square feet of office space that will be occupied by JTA offices, the First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization and the Regional Transportation Management Center.
Bruce Robbins, senior landscape architect at Reynolds, Smith and Hills, said the development will be built around public space on the north and south sides of the JTC.
The area on the north side will provide access to the retail space for passengers waiting to board buses or the Skyway. Robbins said there will also be three areas designated for outdoor sculpture and a “fountain that will cascade into a pool with seating areas around it.â€
DDRB chair Chris Flagg stated the director of the Cultural Council of Greater Jacksonville’s Art in Public Places program was aware of the outdoor sculpture aspect of the design and has suggested a “competition among artists†to determine who will create the art for the JTC’s open space.
On the south side of the center a more “passive†park will be constructed. The four large live oaks that are currently on the site will be preserved and cabbage palms and other landscaping will also be installed, Robbins said.
“That will be more of a shady, secluded area,†he added.
Architect Ethan Loubriel, associate vice president of DMJM Harris, said his firm worked closely with state and local historic preservation agencies to ensure the design of the JTC would be compatible with the existing historic architecture in the area around the project.
“The exterior design combines red brick similar to that found in the nearby historic buildings as well as limestone and precast concrete,†he said.
After the board approved the conceptual design, Steven Arrington, JTA director of resource development, said, “We have been working on this project since 1992. We’ve gone through many phases with this project.†Arrington added the design has been modified over the years in order to reflect changes in development plans for the surrounding blocks.
“This is as good a situation as there can be and I’m confident it (the JTC) will be a win-win for all involved,†he said.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=50325&text=parking%20garage
"Architect Ethan Loubriel, associate vice president of DMJM Harris, said his firm worked closely with state and local historic preservation agencies to ensure the design of the JTC would be compatible with the existing historic architecture in the area around the project."
Well thank goodness. I mean obviously that whole neighborhood is a precious historic district...
Can someone please push the envelope a little bit and not worry about copying or relating everything back to historic architecture. Sure, this needs to be done sometimes, but does everything going up in Jacksonville need to be some sort of architectural mutt...
I was secretly hoping they would push the architectural envelope, but I guess we'll have to wait for another high profile project to do so. I wonder when they expect to break ground? If it opens in 2011, it will have to be soon.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2008, 09:35:32 AM
I was secretly hoping they would push the architectural envelope, but I guess we'll have to wait for another high profile project to do so.
Speaking of hoping for another high profile project ...
I didn't realize that the First Coast MPO would use this new center. This means that their absurd little building on that triangle of Southbank land will now become vacant in 2011.
Some government agency must own the land, because it wasn't even listed as a parcel on the city's property records. Even though the site is sandwiched between off-ramps, it is far enough back from the freeway to build a great office or even residential building.
But unless someone kicks the city in the ass and advocates for development, they will probably ignore the parcel and just landscape it.
Nice to see they included a bath for the homeless and secluded "mugging pockets" in the design. LOL. Shame they didn't use MORE of the history and duplicate the red tile and stucco of the older part of Union Station that fronts Bay.
Why not extend the tunnel system, simple cut and cover, from the current location through the back side of Union Station "The old concourse" and out to the new terminal.
Note as argued in the meetings with FDOT, there is NO... ZERO...Nada...Nunca...Zip...Zilch...provision for LIGHT RAIL OR STREETCAR ANYWHERE IN THE PLAN...Kind of makes you wonder about the serious talk about JTA's so-called Streetcar "Study". Smoke and Mirrors, sit down, shut up, go to the back of the bus, and hang on Jacksonville.
Ocklawaha
So the BRT plan is unstoppable at this point?
Will this transit center be a mere renovation for the Skyway's beginning terminus, or will this provide an extension for it?
BRT in its original form probably won't happen (elevated busways), but JTA is still planning to do an express bus form of BRT.
So doesn't that defeat the purpose (putting faster buses into normal traffic routes?)
Never been much of a bus fan.
Quote from: Joe on July 08, 2008, 10:30:55 AM
I didn't realize that the First Coast MPO would use this new center. This means that their absurd little building on that triangle of Southbank land will now become vacant in 2011.
Some government agency must own the land, because it wasn't even listed as a parcel on the city's property records. Even though the site is sandwiched between off-ramps, it is far enough back from the freeway to build a great office or even residential building.
But unless someone kicks the city in the ass and advocates for development, they will probably ignore the parcel and just landscape it.
It will probably become the Southbank version of the Main St. Pocket Park (across from the Library)
Maybe I overlooked it, but I didn't see rather Greyhound was going to be included in this first phase. Does anyone know?
I'm slow, but did they say, "occupied by JTA offices, the First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization and the Regional Transportation Management Center?" So, the BRT busses will run downtown. Where only those people work? So, correct me if I'm wrong, it's a billion dollar transportation system for only a few people who work for the transportation department department.
Just for fun, OCK is up to bat... and the count is...QuoteWill this transit center be a mere renovation for the Skyway's beginning terminus, or will this provide an extension for it?
This will be a complete encirclement and inclusion of the current end of the track with a new garage, new office building and set the stage for the metro-bus terminal, which FDOT AND JTA say won't be built high enough or big enough to ever allow for Streetcar or Light Rail (but we're doing a study of it...) Hummm?QuoteLunican
BRT in its original form probably won't happen (elevated busways), but JTA is still planning to do an express bus form of BRT.
BRT in the original form is called QUICKWAY BRT - The version (THANK GOD!) that we are headed for and frankly NEED is called BRT - LIGHT RAIL LITE. Quickway BRT uses exclusive right of way and is as costly as rail in every detail except perhaps the vehicles. BUT rail vehicles have a life 4-5 x that of BRT, and electric operation on LRT is cheaper in M&O costs. LRL-BRT is great, uses mostly HOV lanes, very little construction, some que jumping lanes, swing out stations, real time information etc... Los Vegas is a prime example and something we need at EVERY Commuter Rail station to get us to the burbs. WE WON! Remember us showing the slides of Vegas? Quoterjp2008
So doesn't that defeat the purpose (putting faster buses into normal traffic routes?)
rip2008, see the above, except for some weird major 18 wheeler pile-up or traffic from hell that spills into the HOV lanes, this is really the best way to go with bus without spending enough to buy a train. Frankly JTA is right that in some places you want bus, in others train. Where traffic is dense, and swift, such as along the "S" line, Roosevelt-CSX, or the FEC along Phillips, you want train. In primary downtown and close in burbs you want LRT or Heritage Trolley (or a mix). At the end of either of these you want LRT-Lite-BRT bus, and every little connecting street that has vital residential, business, industrial, recreational puropse, you want a local bus. Quotevicupstate
QuoteJoe: I didn't realize that the First Coast MPO would use this new center. This means that their absurd little building on that triangle of Southbank land will now become vacant in 2011.
Some government agency must own the land, because it wasn't even listed as a parcel on the city's property records. Even though the site is sandwiched between off-ramps, it is far enough back from the freeway to build a great office or even residential building.
But unless someone kicks the city in the ass and advocates for development, they will probably ignore the parcel and just landscape it.
It will probably become the Southbank version of the Main St. Pocket Park (across from the Library)
Southbank is on the grow, I doubt ANYTHING sits still down there with both Baptist and Crown Plaza moving dirt, toss in Jackson Square, Kings Avenue Station, and improvements to the Skyway, bus, streetcar or skywalks and that place will explode... The VU nor the St. Johns are dead, just on hold. QuoteSeraphs
Maybe I overlooked it, but I didn't see rather Greyhound was going to be included in this first phase. Does anyone know?
Greyhound and Amtrak are both in line to move, the sad part is our local MPO doesn't really get the concept of a TRANSPORTATION CENTER and IMO, has screwed it up by moving inter-city bus far from inter-city rail.
I would use the current Convention facility (the back or new PRIME) for the bus and Greyhound, even if it ment taking it down and starting over, The long arched roofed "concourse" begs for a transit connection. Both carriers will come aboard if we fund the next phases. Also as an urban "THINK TANK" we need to push like hell to get the railroad pedestrian subway extended to the new bus-Skyway station, again, even if it means rebuilding them. Jacksonville is full of tunnels, and urban underground tunnels are simple cut and cover construction jobs. Quotegatorback
I'm slow, but did they say, "occupied by JTA offices, the First Coast Metropolitan Planning Organization and the Regional Transportation Management Center?" So, the BRT busses will run downtown. Where only those people work? So, correct me if I'm wrong, it's a billion dollar transportation system for only a few people who work for the transportation department department.
It won't be quite so functional with just the offices and parking garage there, the garage is far too small for park and ride and most will be taken by staff that DRIVE. It will however set the stage for a dandy phase two bus building, which I'd love to push SOUTH between this building and Amtrak, as I said right smack in the middle of the PRIME, "Where God intened transportation to be..."OCKLAWAHA
To answer a question a few posts back - JTA owns that triangle of land that the MPO sits on.
OK. Given it wont work let me ask this question. Do JTA employee's ride for free? Do they get a pass that allows them to ride and park for free or do they pay like the other common folks...like me?
Frankly all operations personnel SHOULD HAVE UNLIMITED PASS PRIVILEGES, Floor sweepers, Mechanics, etc... on a per request basis. Management, should be REQUIRED to ride at least XX days per month, as regular passenger and the fare returned through expense accounts.
The Operations guys have EARNED the benefit.
The shop and other staff folks might need the benefit, per request.
The Management should ride without tipping the hand, so as to keep some eyes on the movements and outrages on-board. Of course knowing FOR SURE, the black dude in the back of the bus, with a paint stained tee-shirt, looks a little like Mr. Blaylock might not stop some crazy stunt, but KNOWING FOR SURE that the black dude sitting back there with is MR. BLAYLOCK, will sure keep things off the radar screen. Thus, management sees a taste of the REAL product. They should also have to turn in a sheet with accountability, showing they boarded and exited at different stops during any given time period.
The old C&O railroad was famous for it's passenger train service right up until the days of Amtrak. Though it had been greatly trimmed down, it still was sharp, clean and on-time. One of the reasons was then president Paul Reistrup, would board trains in a middle of the night snow storm in "God Forgot" West Virginia, or "Thumb Screw", Michigan, spill his suitcase, get lost on-board..."where was that lounge", etc... ANY EMPLOYEE that crossed him, had their walking papers by morning. It should also be said, he could be equally generous with rewards of cash, tips, benefits and perks to exceptional employees. He was legend and became the FIRST president of AMTRAK to start turning it into a railroad.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock...a few posta back you said....
"Greyhound and Amtrak are both in line to move, the sad part is our local MPO doesn't really get the concept of a TRANSPORTATION CENTER and IMO, has screwed it up by moving inter-city bus far from inter-city rail."
What does the MPO have to do with anything?...they didn't move Greyhound...nor did they design the new transportation center....JTA (with consultants) did!
Simple, someone had said to me the MPO was completely out of the picture, and you rather confirmed that. These sort of decsions are showing the weakness of our consolidated streamlined government, NOT it's strengths. Frankly, EVERYONE - from MPO, DVI, AIA, JEDC, JTA, FDOT, City Council, etc... plus a heavy citizen board of advisors both "concerned citizens at large" and perhaps an inner board of "citizen professionals in transportation" (I'm not just talking about me here but as the transportation hub of Florida, we have got zillions of minds going to waste on these things).
I WANT to see the project done, in fact I first presented the idea to the Mayor in 1976! (something else I haven't told anyone until now). I had a complete model of it done on the back of a "HAYSTACK MANDARIN" sign, LOL... I called for removal of the stub tracks and keeping the viaduct, and all 10 through tracks. Greyhound, Trailways and JTA would have taken over the former stub yard (where the exhibit building now sits). I still think that building could be cut in half leaving the original concourse (rebuilt with tunnel under it and BAY STREET) + the new Convention Concourse with the arched glass roof. The exhibit building itself maybe could serve as the new bus terminal, it would do to have an AIA competition to see it an idea could be hatched that would both save millions and use the building. I don't claim to be a building engineer but would love to find a way to cut it in half EAST to WEST, so that we'd have the concourse and the Northern 1/2 to recycle into bus and office, and the Southern 1/2 to use for drives, connection platforms and other station utilities as well as perhaps a couple of tracks.
Having been in on the FDOT meetings on this thing, AND the JTA, I can only think someone that did our design has never been to "OCALA" or "LOS ANGELES" where they have REAL and workable Transportation Centers converted from former Rail Depots.
If MPO was out of the process, WHY? WHY? WHY?
OCKLAWAHA
Ock...the MPO is a planning organization...and it does have a citizens committee...as well as a technical committee comprised of transportation planners from Duval, Nassau, Clay, and St. Johns counties.
but the reality is that MPOs don't have much governing power....so its pretty hard for them to be involved in the detailed design and permitting process....from a planning priority standpoint (where they do have power), everyone agrees that a multimodal center in that area is a good thing.
Also you mention AIA....this is also not a government group, just a professional organization....their power would be even more limited than the MPO in this.
Your ideas would have much greater impact if your posts didn't often seem like rants against "the man"
Imo, the best way to design the transportation center would have been JTA working with the city. Ideally, the project (like every one, both large and small) should fit into a larger vision for the core. If the city had a grand vision in mind, we would have probably ended up with a more compact transportation center, allowing more land for quality infill development. The convention center would also most likely end up being relocated.
The negative side of transportation minded professionals taking control of this process, is that their main perspective focuses on moving buses from Point A to B. There's no balance in creating a pedestrian scale community. All successful projects need balance.
tufsu1 Sorry if the old hippie's rants offended you. No harm intended. BELIEVE ME, and I'm sure The Lakelander knows (and thus posted) that my inclusion of AIA and others was an attempt to point out
the missing vision. The idea that we don't seem to have "an idea"...
I have been defensive of this Phase One project, as in-and-of iteself, it is a good start. I could see a Phase two moving South and not North. Having recently broken into the old tunnels (which I posted) was proof enough to me that this is still a workable solution.
OCKLAWAHA
The key to a compact center is to get the convention center out of there. Doing such, would energize Bay Street's entertainment district (assuming center relocates to current courthouse site), create the ideal transportation complex and free up a few extra blocks for infill development. All in all, we would be better utilizing the land and its assets.
I agree. Putting a huge convention center complex right downtown on bay street between the sports complex and the landing would be a smart move to revitalizing the core. Then perhaps, a streetcar line or extending the skyway would actually happen. A larger convention center would also help book larger convention groups. I wonder if the Bay Steet Station would still go forward if the convention center moves? Anyone know if the complex is contingent on the convention center staying put?
Tampa's convention center is 600,000 SF,
and is on the waterfront.