Metro Jacksonville

Breathing Life back into the Jacksonville Landing

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/jacksonville_landing/DCP_9262.jpg)

Some believe additional parking may be the answer to the Jacksonville Landing's woes, but history suggests that the center's ability to draw in national tenants will not be completely solved by a parking garage.  Here are several things that, if implemented, may improve the Landing's viability.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/836

This whole argument about their not being any parking downtown is BS.  I live in SPR and go downtown all the time.  I have always found a spot to park not more than a block or two from where I am going.

The Landing is dated and a new parking garage is not going to turn this place around.

I do agree the Landing is dated and needs some major renovations. The parking issue will always be an issue for someone coming from the burbs.  For those of us who live in the core, we know that there is plenty of parking, just poor signage.

I agree that the parking situation is an issue for somebody coming from the suburbs. I also think there is parking available that people do not utilize. However, the parking signage is so poor that people would not even know it is available. I was in Baltimore last year and was amazed at the parking signage around the inner harbor.

Quote from: copperfiend on July 08, 2008, 08:22:57 AM
However, the parking signage is so poor that people would not even know it is available.

Isn't there/wasn't there some law or code on the books that basically forbade any kind of advertising and/or other signage downtown?  Is that still a contributing factor to the fact that once 'burb dwellers get downtown they struggle to figure out where they're going, how to get there, and where to park?

Downtown does have a ton of parking, its just unmarked.  However, in the Landing's case, they believe they need a certain number of dedicated spaces to attract national chains that demand dedicated parking.  This would basically mean taking a garage somewhere and dedicating all of its parking spaces to the Landing, as opposed to having general public parking or leasing a certain amount of spaces to nearby offices, etc.  The closest city owned public parking garage is the Water Street garage, but its separated from the Landing by a few blocks of surface parking, making the walk between the two structures undesirable.  A solution to this problem could be a streetcar line down Water from the Prime Osborn to the Hyatt.  While the streetcar line would bring other benefits, it would also directly tie in several garages and parking lots with the Landing, Omni, TU Center, Hyatt and the Convention Center, thus enabling them to take advantage of what's already in place.  However, I don't see people here seriously thinking outside of the box and moving forward with something before Sleiman's garage goes vertical.

Quote from: Doctor_K on July 08, 2008, 08:38:38 AM

Quote from: copperfiend on July 08, 2008, 08:22:57 AM
However, the parking signage is so poor that people would not even know it is available.

Isn't there/wasn't there some law or code on the books that basically forbade any kind of advertising and/or other signage downtown?  Is that still a contributing factor to the fact that once 'burb dwellers get downtown they struggle to figure out where they're going, how to get there, and where to park?

The downtown signage ordinance has been revised, so signs are allowed.  We probably need to edit it again to make garage and parking lot owners put up uniform signage indicating where short term public parking spaces are available.

I wonder how much a starter streetcar line on Water Street would cost compared to a new parking garage?

Quote
The downtown signage ordinance has been revised, so signs are allowed.  We probably need to edit it again to make garage and parking lot owners put up uniform signage indicating where short term public parking spaces are available.

Thanks for the clarification!

Does the task of 'editing it again' fall to the city legislators?  Would they be able to (figuratively speaking) slap an ordinance down outlining the what's, where's, and how's on that?  Or would it be something more involving like including the various merchants' organizations in on such discussions?

It should be something the city can do by enforcing the Downtown Master Plan the taxpayers paid for eight years ago, under the Delaney Administration.  However, I would expect anything that would cost the private sector additional money would be best being debated in the open and involving merchants and the parking industry.

Quote from: Lunican on July 08, 2008, 08:44:49 AM
I wonder how much a starter streetcar line on Water Street would cost compared to a new parking garage?

It would be cheaper to construct a starter streetcar line.  Water Street is approximately one mile.  They could easily lay track and catenary in the street for less than $10 million.  On the other hand, the new 1,385 space, courthouse garage cost $26 million.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=41913&text=parking%20garage

QuoteWhat Does It Cost?

We will take a detailed look at costs in our three case studies, which make up the next section of this paper. In general, the answer to the question, “What does it cost?,” is the same answer J.P. Morgan gave when a reporter asked him, “Mr. Morgan, what is the stock market going to do?” The great financier replied, “It will fluctuate.”

Costs of streetcar lines vary widely, because the characteristics of streetcar lines vary widely. In fact, it can be difficult to obtain the construction cost of a streetcar line, because building the line is often part of a larger project that includes other elements.

San Francisco’s new F line provides a good example. This is a double-track streetcar line, built to Light Rail standards, which now carries almost 20,000 people per day (all in Vintage cars, we would note). The construction cost was about $30 million per mile, which is high even for Light Rail. But much of that money went for visual enhancements that have nothing to do with running streetcars, including extensive use of granite and marble and even planting palm trees along the right-of-way. A city that wanted just the streetcar line without the Carmen Miranda-style décor could build it for substantially less.

At the other end of the scale is the excellent and highly innovative two-mile streetcar line recently opened in Kenosha, Wisconsin. The total cost was just $4 million, or $2 million per mile, including five restored PCC streetcars.

Some other examples include:

Portland, Oregon, the only line using modern streetcars. The 4.6 mile loop line was constructed for $12.4 million per mile, including seven new streetcars, built in the Czech Republic.

Tampa, Florida, a 2.3 mile line built for $13.7 million per mile including eight Heritage streetcars. The cars themselves, replicas of 1920’s Birney streetcars, cost $600,000 each (compared to up to $3 million for a modern Light Rail Vehicle).

Little Rock, Arkansas, a 2.1 mile line built for $7.1 million per mile, including three streetcars.

San Pedro, California, a 1.5 mile line that recreates the old Pacific Electric “Red Cars” for $4 million per mile, including three streetcars, one Vintage and two Heritage.

full article: www.heritagetrolley.org/artcileBringBackStreetcars7.htm

Well, I for one am in complete agreement that a parking garage is not going to do anything at all for the Landing. Parking is not the issue here . . . the isssue is that the landing is, well, completely unsatifying. It is perched on the river in what should be an excellent location, but it is not integrated with downtown at all. Walking by the place, there is nothing on the street side to give you any particular desire to go inside and check it out. It is as if the front of the place is facing the river and the landing effectively has its "back" turned towards downtown. I think the place should have "two fronts." The earlier idea of splitting the place and having Laura continue to the river (a pedestrian only version) would help. As it is right now, the place is too small, claustrophobic, and partitioned to be anything worth building more parking for. I mean its ridiculous - all downtown has is parking! It's everywhere! People just are loathe to walk a couple of blocks. I swear downtown has more parking garages than any other type of building in the area, and street parking galore.

What ever became of the plan to chop out the front end of the landing and open up the water to the street?

Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 10:38:44 AM

Another thing that the Landing could do would be to convert the totally unused bottom to a seafood/ farmers market that combined the beaver street action with seafood a la Pikes Place Market in Seattle.

In Pikes Place, the shops and store keepers come and go just as rapidly as they do in the Landing (well at least the 'go' part) but the Seafood Market stays the same.

I love Pikes Place... You can spend an entire day wandering the shops, watching the street performers... Ahhh Seattle...

Sleiman buying the Landing has been a lifesaver.  If Rouse still owned it, it would probably be shuttered by now.

That said, I think he is 'waiting out' Peyton's term, so he can try to buy the land underneath.  I just don't think he is going to invest the 'big money' until he owns the dirt too.  Frankly, I don't blame him.  Opening up the cener to Laura Street is a no-brainer, that the city should be working with him to accomplish.  It would result in a loss of leaseable space (temporarily at least), but he has plenty to spare now.

Sleiman's reluctance to sign a 'Staples/Office max' type tenant is understandable in one sense, it doesn't fit the long-term goal. But I would like to see a short-term (2-3 years) lease given to one.  Anything is better than vacant space, and it would provide a service for both the office workers and the DT residential population (albeit a small population currently). 

I also like Stephen's idea about a Farmer/Seafood market.  Open up the center through to Laura Street, and set up a Saturday and Sunday market on the patio areas if nothing else.             

The dated look and significant vacancies would be an embarrassment in any other city, but in inferiority-complex Jacksonville, it is just accepted.  As the T-U article quoted the Landing official, probably 85% of Jax visitors go there sooner or later.  My guess is that was probably true for many years, but it probably is a lot lower than that now. 

If you had out of town visitors staying with you, would you take them to SJTC or the Landing?         

Stephen, you're dead on about the market idea.  Even if they never opened the courtyard up to Laura Street, there's enough space facing Independent Drive, where this activity could be used to convert that area into a second front facing activity center.

Couple points...

The seafood/farmer's market idea is fantastic! That's the key right there.

The landing should be the "International and Local Grocer Hub" of Jacksonville. You should be able to shop for Fresh Maine Lobsters and Florida Sailfish, Local Organic Produce, Costa Rican fruits, Asian/Filipino grocery items Polish deli meats, French breads and pastries, etc, etc.

All those condos going up downtown? Those people are not going to shop at Winn Dixie! They'll want Whole Foods class or better niche stuff.

It's not a "Landing", it's a Launchpad!
The Landing should be a multi-modal transport hub also! Extend the Skyway a couple blocks down Hogan Street right into the Landing itself.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2008, 11:22:53 AM
Stephen, you're dead on about the market idea.  Even if they never opened the courtyard up to Laura Street, there's enough space facing Independent Drive, where this activity could be used to convert that area into a second front facing activity center.

Exactly, just start out using space between the courtyard and Water Steet (indoors and out). Just use tables and produce containers, nothing that would require a building permit.  Do it every Saturday for a couple of months and see if it builds steam, before doing anything an expensive as altering the building.     

Put live music on the stage too. Lots of produce, seafood and fresh bread, etc. would make a much better impression that papered over empty retail spaces.   

A mix of food, entertainment, and guy gadgets would be interesting. HELLO, are men no longer a market for anyone? When is the last time you got dragged from store to store to look at the pink bra, then the blue one, then the red one, then...

HELP!

If someone would trick out the corners with computers, games, hobbies, sports, electronics...We would all be dragging the ladies down the the landing! Moreover, we could wine and dine, and even THEY could shop.
Then just add STREETCAR and mix. Some unknown guy did this back about 1968 in Long Beach California, by buying an old "Tourist Court Motel", then then leased each cottage to a different "hobby"... Don't know if he is still there, but MY GOD, he had the busiest place in Southern California for years and years.

Ocklawaha

They do it in San Francisco too on the weekends & it's awesome & enviable.  Does Tony Sleiman read this??????  The space is there.  What a no brainer.  Art, wine, food, music........

I agree!  fantastic ideas here.  Does anyone have his email address so we could send him this string. 

After they build this garage I wonder what the next excuse will be as to why the landing still suks!!!!

Quote from: vicupstate on July 08, 2008, 11:07:26 AM

If you had out of town visitors staying with you, would you take them to SJTC or the Landing?         

I wouldn't take them to either unless I hated them and wanted to ruin their visit.

I recently had visitors from San Jose and Vegas... both had a great time at Twisted Martini, Mavericks(my first time), people watching in the courtyard.  It is a pretty intersting mix of humanity on Friday and Saturday nights...

I was in the Landing courtyard a few months ago on a Friday afternoon. It was an interesting mix of guys in jean shorts and sleeveless shirts.

Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 12:43:59 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on July 08, 2008, 11:07:26 AM

If you had out of town visitors staying with you, would you take them to SJTC or the Landing?         

I wouldn't take them to either unless I hated them and wanted to ruin their visit.

The Town Center would ruin their visit?

With all due respect, I really dislike this sort of sentiment. The SJTC is absolutely nothing but a positive for the city of Jacksonville. It's the absolute premier shopping destination between Orlando and Atlanta full of stores that Jacksonville is a good decade away from even DREAMING of having in the core. Sucks, but it's the truth of the matter. Call it a glorified strip mall or whatever, but there's just no denying that it has been a massive success and is a wonderful thing for the suburbanites who, realistically, don't want to or will never want to jump on the highway and drive the 20, 30 or 40 mile round trip downtown might be for them.

Downtown's day will come, and I'm as excited as anyone about that, but economic growth and development elsewhere in the city is only going to bring more people to Jacksonville who will in turn spend more money. If a market this small can support an NFL team for over a decade, surely it can support a handful of commercial/entertainment districts in both the burbs and the urbs.

As stated a few times already Stephen's idea about a market would be amazing!  As I have lived in Springfield for coming up on five years now I can clearly see how beneficial this would be to all of us as well as all of the "newcomers" who are moving into the core.
I know that my family for one would be frequenting the landing even more often than we do now.

The parking thing is a little bit of an issue - national chains require it, and for a suburbanite, parking is difficult (notice I didn't say 'not available').  We are competing against St Johns Town Center, which has a sea of free parking.  The landing will never have that.

As far as the signage thing, that was fixed in 2002 or 2003, but it took Starbucks putting a protruding siign on their Forsyth and Main property to wake everyone up that they were allowed (this was related no only to hard headedness in Public Works, but also sign contractors misleading retailers as far as what is required).

St John's Town Center has been a success because of the retailers entering the market, not because of St Johns Town Center itself.  Remember, the expansion of Regency Square in the 80's was one of the final death knell's in downtown retail.  Now, the Dillard's is turing into a clearance center.  See what 20 years can do.  I think it would be VERY interesting to see SJTC in 20 years.

To me one of the main issues is the construction - the most valuable space is where the food courts and their seating is.  Think about this - the most valuable space in the building is where $4 lunches are sold, and remember, the seating area is not leasable (only the little closets where the food is sold at).  This we can't blame Sleiman for.

Now, until the market improves, there won't be a lot of action.  The Peyton Administration is solely to blame for this, for being very poor at negotiations.  The dragged this thing on SO long that they missed the market (did they really think the market was going to stay like that)?

Now, there are some thing they can do to help - first, start with the list in the article, particularly the look and feel of the place.  Second, come up with some sort of parking thing - even if people have to pay short term, partner with a garage to put a big sign on it (the 9 story one that is empty after 5 is a good start).  That wouldn't be ideal, but it would take the parking situation from an F to a C

Quote from: Steve on July 08, 2008, 03:57:33 PM
St John's Town Center has been a success because of the retailers entering the market, not because of St Johns Town Center itself.  Remember, the expansion of Regency Square in the 80's was one of the final death knell's in downtown retail.  Now, the Dillard's is turing into a clearance center.  See what 20 years can do.  I think it would be VERY interesting to see SJTC in 20 years.

Not that I'm outright disagreeing here, but wouldn't the SJTC of 20 years hence and Regency Square of today kind of be an apples-to-oranges comparison? 

Since newer ways of thinking and planning like smart growth and new urbanism are more overt of an issue now than they were in the 80s (if they even existed as fleshed-out in the 80s as they are now?), even if Jax remains slow to adapt to such thinking, is it possible that the SJTC could remain as viable a commercial entity then as it seems to be now?

That, coupled with the trend of 'urban' villages/'town centers' (we've all hashed the validity of the term in other threads, but I use it here loosely anyway) sprouting up all over the place (ok - the Southside), and nothing but mid-density residential going up as well? 

Normally I'd tend to agree with you, in theory, about the "let's see what such-and-such looks like in 20 years" argument; but at the same time, a lot can happen between now and then that could make the SJTC (and let's not overlook the successes in their own rights of others like Oak Leaf, River City Marketplace, and however many others there are now, too) a different animal from the Regency comparison.

Or am I just hoping for too much and talking out of my arse?

Imo, SJTC will ultimately be as successful as the neighborhood around it.  All the land planning in the world won't help if the surrounding area goes down the tubes or doesn't remain the popular place to be in Jacksonville.  My pick is that some significant redevelopment and a change in tenant mix will happen eventually, because the housing being constructed around the center is pretty substandard and the infrastructure in that general area is poorly laid out.

Awesome!  Would you be able to post it for all?

imo, the landing ain't doing crap for sometime.  the local economics don't support it.

cool...can you pull up the renderings from 2005 that were supposed to happen back then?  i loved those.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 08, 2008, 08:40:03 AM
Downtown does have a ton of parking, its just unmarked.  However, in the Landing's case, they believe they need a certain number of dedicated spaces to attract national chains that demand dedicated parking.  This would basically mean taking a garage somewhere and dedicating all of its parking spaces to the Landing, as opposed to having general public parking or leasing a certain amount of spaces to nearby offices, etc.  The closest city owned public parking garage is the Water Street garage, but its separated from the Landing by a few blocks of surface parking, making the walk between the two structures undesirable.  A solution to this problem could be a streetcar line down Water from the Prime Osborn to the Hyatt.  While the streetcar line would bring other benefits, it would also directly tie in several garages and parking lots with the Landing, Omni, TU Center, Hyatt and the Convention Center, thus enabling them to take advantage of what's already in place.  However, I don't see people here seriously thinking outside of the box and moving forward with something before Sleiman's garage goes vertical.

Funny I just got back from a small town in CA that has national chains right downtown without any dedicated parking...In fact the options of stores and eateries in this small town of 58K BLOWS Jacksonville away! There must be something besides parking holding downtown and the landing back.

What's the name of the town?  Does it have rail transit, is it dense or a part of a larger metropolitan area?

San Luis Obsipo, it is 58K pop, with a college so most likely doubles in pop once a year. It is a stand alone city (although five cities and Atascadero, Morro Bay, Paso Robles are all very close). They are very "anti chain" and it took them about 10 years to get a home depot! I took pics of downtown, including the new proposed "China Town" developement area, and of course "Bubble Gum Alley" I just need to give them to Stephen. This is the same town that had HORRENDOUS vagrant and homeless feeding issues downtown just five years ago, a new day center outside the city limits, and a few loitering/cruising laws have created a booming downtown center.


BTW the biggest employer in SLO is the State of California and the county itself (about one hour north of Santa Barbara)


Oops... they have Amtrak, but no "metro rail", they do have a pretty aggresive bus and van pool system, and great bike lanes on every single road.

I did not take a pic of the day center, but I can maybe ask someone to do so... I'll see maybe I can map it too

Quote from: Eazy E on July 08, 2008, 12:43:59 PM

Quote from: vicupstate on July 08, 2008, 11:07:26 AM

If you had out of town visitors staying with you, would you take them to SJTC or the Landing?         

I wouldn't take them to either unless I hated them and wanted to ruin their visit.

Haha! I think I love you Easy E

My suggestions are:
1) to make the entire front as much glass as possible, adding vibrant signage and lighting
2) Install custom LED lights around the top horseshoe roof that can change to any color depending on events and seasons
3) completely redo all exterior and interior appearances just like the much improved Orange Park mall did

Two Words: Irish Pub.  Not a fake Irish Pub that confuses Mc and O' with legitimacy.  Just a real, not chain, Irish, pub where people can go after work for a drink without feeling like they should have changed into their gold-pinstriped muscle shirt (Twisted) or their jean shorts (Hooters).  Preferably it would have a small soundstage and enough sound insulation to block out the blaring DJ music coming from the fountain.  Honestly, the Twist is a cool song and all, but seriously? that loud? 

As much as I hate chains - BAHAMA BREEZE!  TILTED KILT!  UNO!  LANDRY'S!  CALIFORNIA PIZZA KITCHEN!

Weekend Farmer's Market - NOT A FLEA MARKET or BAZAAR -  inside & out - Fresh meats, herbs, seafood, produce, spices, artisans, musicians, street performers, wine, microbrews, chocolate, baked goods - NO CARNIES; NO Seedy types selling boiled peanuts, 3 watermelons, some "greens" & cross-stitched Florida/Georgia wall art or silk screened T-shirts or ferrets ...................oh yeah, no pit bull puppies either! 8)

The interior/facade doesn't bother me as much considering that when I was @ Harborplace in Baltimore it seemed to have the same aesthetic feel (I swear the Landing may have been assembled with spare parts from that project), but with more life OUTSIDE to supplement.  For the record, I'd still take JAX over Baltimore ANYDAY.......

What was the story about the landing forcing Fat Tuesdays out?  If I remember correctly the landing refused to renew there lease.  Fat Tuesdays was always crowded, can anyone referesh my memory or shed some light?

Quote from: stephendare on July 08, 2008, 06:04:32 PM
any reader suggestions for the Landing?

1. Add glass storefronts to the NW side, as indicated in the rendering Janice supplied.  The direct exposure to the Independent Drive and Hogan Streets, enhances the value of space that currently sits vacant and under utilized.

2. Add enough sidewalk space in front of those storefront for outdoor use, thus turning the under utilized pocket park into another activity center.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1314-p1010616.JPG)
People attract people. Decent sidewalk space would allow for activities such as outdoor dining to become a part of the Independent Drive scene.  If you can fill the sidewalks, others will have an urge to come over to take part in what looks like people having a great time.

3. Target locally based established businesses like Mojo BBQ, Peterbrooke, etc. to consider opening outlets in the remaining available vacant spaces.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/boston/DCP_5188.jpg)
Boston's Faneuil Hall is an attractive place, partially because of the ability to house a decent number of local dining establishments that cater serving guests locally based cruisine.

4. A public locally themed marketplace (as Stephen suggested earlier) along the Independent Drive side that stretches from Laura Street to the new glass storefronts and Mongos on the NW side.

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1224/1458087159_22c975a152.jpg)
a market with attractive uniform tents can be used to turn the north side of the center into a popular place that pulls people into the complex from Downtown's streets.

5. A spring cleaning of the interior with a little money spent on updating the decor and lighting of the structure.

6. Publicly support the idea of running a streetcar down Water Street.  This would enable to city/Landing to use the Water Street Garage for additional parking, as well as connect the center to the Convention Center, Omni, Hyatt and TU Center.  It would be cheaper to set up than building additional parking garages, plus it would bring significant exposure to the center, making it more viable and attractive for additional private investment.

I think these are some things can be done for an affordable price, yet have a great positive impact on the center without having to immediately physically alter the facility's footprint.

Greenville has a DT Saturday Market from April-October, from 8:00 am until noon.  There is a Farmer's Market just outside the city limits that is more like the Beaver St. facility in Jax. This is more of a niche market.

Offerings include: Produce (of course), seafood, plants, fresh cuts flowers and arrangements, cooking demonstrations, live music, fresh baked bread, Locally processed Coffee, Gourmet Pet treats/toys, candles and the like, etc.

Since the DT restaurants don't open for breakfast by and large, the market brings people DT during an otherwise slow period.  The street reopens just as the Saturday lunch crowd starts arriving.  A corporate sponsor contributes towards expenses. 

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3022/2651143637_ecbe443aae_m.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3106/2651971060_b71b9859b7_m.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3033/2651971470_4caf6f68ba_m.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3007/2651972348_d6882e5a31_m.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3294/2651145627_83ef9d9e37_m.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3219/2651146895_b4d4cb53e5_m.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3118/2651988110_f12acd630a_m.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/2651147295_b9f08b7497_m.jpg)

   

I dont post often... but...

start from scratch. Make it an art museum or aquairium.

Any one that has been here from around day one knows it always has been, and always will be, crap.

Make it a public school.

My word...

Well Mr Ian,

you obviously haven't had the bbq chicken from the cajun express son!

it's worth 5.99.


naw i'm playin. just raze it. build  a mega-memorial park in it's place.

FAT TUESDAY'S pushed out because it was drawing to many blacks,dont forget Jax is somewhat a racist city,atleast thats what I heard and I believe it.Too bad Tony was not able to move forward with his plans.IMO Jax is too old fashion,dumb,etc,,most other cities hosting a Super Bowl would have had there Landing up to speed well before the vistors arrived.

Fat Tuesday drawing primarily african americans?  When was that?  Every time I went in there you needed sunglasses because the crowd was so white.

There are so many things the Landing could do to make it better. Open it up to the heart of Downtown, provide outside dining, markets, etc. along the north and west sides of the Landing. Redo the 80's look inside the Landing. Add more colorful lights, Plasma screens, scrolling digital signs, etc. Just a few thoughts.  I did notice on that rendering, there was a Panera Bread shown, that wouldn't be a bad idea. I know some people have things against national chains, but those chains could help draw people to the Landing, especially something like a Cheesecake Factory, big names draw people!

Quote from: civil42806 on July 09, 2008, 08:06:42 AM
Fat Tuesday drawing primarily african americans?  When was that?  Every time I went in there you needed sunglasses because the crowd was so white.

Its true, in its last days it was predominantly African American.

Oh yes! I totally forgot about that. Probably because I was not allowed in after 9PM when they started that ;0)

Love all the ideas for a fresh market, streetcar (privately financed, of course) and street side activity area.
However I don't think the city should force downtown parking businesses to put up signage advertising their product.  Can't government help things along without passing an ordinance or regulation?  Couldn't the city just work the parking businesses and other downtown merchants and come up with something that is voluntary?

Imo, the city should lead by example and put decent "P" signage on their own garages.

Yes, P Signage is much needed cause there is plenty of parking downtown. Ive lived here my entire life and frequent Downtown. I have not ever had to turn around and leave because I couldnt find a parking spot.

finding it is half the battly.

I don't think Sleiman is paying for the proposed garage across the street.  Kuhn's former buddy is going to construct it.  Its supposed to include parking for the tower next door, as well as the Landing.

Quote from: stephendare on July 09, 2008, 12:21:42 PM
It sounds like this trolley deal would save the Landing 16 million dollars or so.

Is that an accurate guess?

I think Stephen and I spoke of this in person recently, the Trolley is turning out to be a pretty good deal, now we just need to expand the hours...and I hear thats a definite possibility for the near future.

Im not sure of the $ amount of savings, but 16M is no chump change.

I think Stephen is referring to a real starter streetcar/light rail line that would run down Water Street, from the Prime Osborn to the Hyatt.

Assuming its privately funded, the Landing would not have to fit the bill alone.  The City, JTA and major landowners along the route would all have to work together to construct a mile long line that could be less than $10 million total.

I've always really enjoyed the Moonlight Movies they do out at the beach. I wonder if a similar classic movie concept could work at the Landing now that they have the big screen up. Could be a regular thing, or maybe seasonal (horror movies in October, holiday movies in December, romantic comedies in February, blockbusters in the summer). It would be cheaper than putting on a concert and seems like it would have the potential to draw people in who would in turn spend money at the restaurants and shops. Throw up some popcorn and refreshment vendors and you've got yourself a fine afternoon or evening. I for one think it'd be pretty cool to go to the Landing during December, watch Home Alone on the big screen under the warm glow of the Christmas tree, and drink some delicious hot cocoa with my wife. It would give me a reason to go there, and I know I would end up spending money at the shops and getting lunch or dinner while I was there.

A more casual boat tour would also be cool. Something you could hop on with no obligation to eat dinner or take to a set destination. More of a boat that just casually circles around downtown, picks up and drops off from various locations, plays music, etc. You have dinner at the Landing, you hop on the boat, hang out, have a few drinks, enjoy the ride, maybe meet some new friends. I love similar tours down in Los Olas in Ft. Lauderdale. The water taxi is far too practical and no-frills to be considered an entertainment option. You pay $5, sit in the dark, take a 10 minute loop in silence, and then either have to get off or pay another $5 to take another 10 minute loop. A rip off if you're in it for the scenery, but I'd gladly pay $10 plus drink costs to have a fun experience on the St. Johns.

Thats an awesome idea Ken. I too have enjoyed Moonlight Movies at the Beach several times. They were also doing them at Treaty Oak on the Southbank  (Movies in the Park) this past April, I wasnt able to attend any of them so I dont know how attendance was. But the ones at the beach were always packed.

http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential.com/2008/04/movies-in-park.html

A booze cruise from the Landing!!  Wahoo!

The movie idea is also very good. All the successful mixed-use retail urban centers have movie theaters - Jax Landing does not. Movie theatres work because it brings after hours money in, and it's family friendly. Which brings me to...

Shift the focus to family-friendly/kid-friendly activities/venues
Was down there for a bit tonight and I realized there's almost nothing for children there. What's worse, it's so Hardrock-bar oriented now, that it drives a possible kid audience away.

So how bout exchanging some of those tennants for...

A special kids YMCA fitness center
A massive rock/climbing wall/funhouse thing
A dance/music school area for kids
A permanent Wii station with massive TV screen

Quote

QuoteLove all the ideas for a fresh market, streetcar (privately financed, of course) and street side activity area.
However I don't think the city should force downtown parking businesses to put up signage advertising their product.  Can't government help things along without passing an ordinance or regulation?  Couldn't the city just work the parking businesses and other downtown merchants and come up with something that is voluntary?

I think Stephen and I spoke of this in person recently, the Trolley is turning out to be a pretty good deal, now we just need to expand the hours...and I hear thats a definite possibility for the near future.

(http://www.tecolinestreetcar.org/about/vehicles/breezer/breezer.jpg)

For CERTAIN Stephen, Lakelander, and a handfull of others are talking about REAL STREETCARS on REAL TRACKS with REAL WIRE OVERHEAD. Faux trolleys will NEVER create a tourist boom, and not in any way gauge the success of a real streetcar line. Even the craftsmanship in our PCT Trolleys, Stephen raved about in another thread, will pale in the light of the old world craftsmanship in a REAL streetcar. It's the difference in fine imported carvings and woodcuttings and a really pretty mobile home. They both have wood inside, and are both well made, but worlds apart.

As for privately financed, THAT is possible. It might happen as either a musuem, a for-profit corportation or some of both (we already have them up and running as corporations). It might also be a City function. In any case it should not damage the hands-off view of some political party's. A mile long test streetcar line could be strung down Water Street, and perhaps a tiny bit of Lee or Davis for example. A small museum and shop at Lee or Davis, near the massive parking, serves the landing AND the Skyway, AND the Transit Center, AND any new BAY STREET STATION development area. The streetcar museum itself will draw about 500,000 visitors per year downtown. Backed up by TWO regional marketing firms, including a recent one. That's about 6 Super Bowl games full of "NEVER BEEN TO JAX FOR ANYTHING" trouists. They visit the museum, ride the streetcars, and gosh-gee-batman, they end up on River Walk, the Hyatt, Bay Street Station, Omni, Landing, Florida Theater and God knows where else. Suddenly that empty "parking garage site" becomes a new highrise, Then another and another, Soon with streetcar and skyway expansion, another dozen go up. The building boom reaches ONE BILLION DOLLARS! WHY? Because THAT is what streetcars are causing to happen in cities all over the country. 1 Billion, 1.4 Billion, 5 Billion, 2.3 Billion etc... Now just how much would that REALLY cost us even if the city financed 100% of it? Factor in the new taxes, tourism, and building boom and we end up with a net gain of hundreds of millions OVER ANY JTA BUS PLAN!

AMAZING? Maybe so, but the facts are hard numbers, industry published and internationally accepted.

WE CAN AND SHOULD DO THIS NOW...

"CLANG! CLANG! CLANG! WENT THE TROLLEY..."

Ocklawaha

QuoteNow just how much would that REALLY cost us even if the city financed 100% of it?

A lot cheaper than the money we've already wasted on the courthouse site.

Easy. Bring Club Paris Back.  :o

Um. NO! Check our review.

http://www.jacksonvilleconfidential.com/2007/02/club-paris-review.html

I have to agree that the Landing is very non-family oriented.  I was recently in Baltimore and their Inner Harbor is awesome.  Not only is there a great mix of upscale chain restaurants, but also smaller cafes and retail.  There were many families with kids as well as the traditional tourist groups, cameras in hand.  You can rent paddle boats and their many unique museums are all geared towards family enjoyment.  I also think opening up the landing so one could see the river from Laura Street would be a huge improvement.

I agree that the layout of the Landing is all wrong for attracting consistent visitors - residents and tourists alike.  The suggestions made in the original post are all valid; however, I completely agree with brainstomer about opening the landing so you can see the river from Laura Street as well as from other venue's within the Landing.  The river is such a huge asset and attraction to downtown and the insular layout of the Landing is not very friendly.  The focal point of all venues within the Landing should be the river, but instead most shops and restaurants have their backs to it.  Why would someone drive all the way downtown to sit in a restaurant on the river but be unable to veiw it?   

Quote from: brainstormer on July 10, 2008, 07:25:13 PM
I have to agree that the Landing is very non-family oriented.  I was recently in Baltimore and their Inner Harbor is awesome.  Not only is there a great mix of upscale chain restaurants, but also smaller cafes and retail.  There were many families with kids as well as the traditional tourist groups, cameras in hand.  You can rent paddle boats and their many unique museums are all geared towards family enjoyment.  I also think opening up the landing so one could see the river from Laura Street would be a huge improvement.

I was at the Inner Harbor last year and it certainly has many things that our downtown/southbank should have. Parking garages with proper signage, a Navy ship available for tours, an aquarium, an ESPN Zone...

Another impression after visiting it again - a giant sports bar for adults, with nothing for children/teens.  Toss out some of the bars, or put them upstairs some where out of the way. Bottom level should be everything just for kids and youth.

Churn......Some interesting designs, however. 
Members of the Florida Chapter of the American Planning Association’s annual conference did a makeover on a Jacksonville riverfront landmark â€" The Landing â€" as part of a workshop.

QuoteThe Jacksonville Landing: A fresh look
A beauty of urban planning is its ability to envision unusual possibilities for the usual world.
Public and private planners from throughout Florida reinforced that notion in Jacksonville recently as part of an annual conference.
Looking for a familiar city feature they could re-invent for fun as part of a workshop, they chose The Jacksonville Landing, the riverfront eating and shopping mainstay that figures prominently in any future downtown plans.
If you’re betting the first impulse was to rub out the Landing and start over, better luck next time.
Instead, planners sized up the Landing â€" a complex owned by developer Toney Sleiman on city-held land â€" and decided that separating it would be the best place to start, as has been recommended before.
That meant carving out the middle of the horseshoe shape to allow pedestrians a straight shot to the river from Laura Street, creating a corridor river view. Right now, planners noted, the Landing faces the river with much of its back to the rest of downtown.
“It’s almost like cracking an egg, splitting it open and draining it onto Laura Street (behind the Landing),” said planner Chris Flagg of Jacksonville’s Flagg Design Studio, LLC., who worked on the Landing project.
And it gets even more interesting.
The “super block”
The planners envisioned creating an entire “super block” for the Landing to fill by eliminating a short stretch of Water Street to the west and removing the ramp to the Main Street Bridge between the Landing and the bridge.
Under that scenario, the Landing would have room to grow from an area bound by Hogan Street to the west, Water Street to the north and Main Street to the east.
The extra space could be filled with Landing extensions that might include housing, parking, office space and shops, and maybe even a high-rise hotel with a parking deck. Those features would be phased in over time.
Other possibilities include turning the current courtyard area of the Landing into green space with marinas added to the waterfront facing the Landing.
And, while they were at it, the planners suggested the current Landing parking lot directly east of the Main Street Bridge could become a convention  center, aquarium or maritime museum.
Of course, the cool thing about all this visioning is that it costs nothing to dream.
Planners in this effort just had to think out of the box; they didn’t have to worry about leases, contracts, landowners, vacating streets or costs.
But the planners didn’t shoot entirely from the hip in reaching their conclusions, which appear to be reasonable.
Management staff from the Landing graciously provided a tour, and the planners did some ground-level sizing up of their own aside from having aerial photographs, base maps and other data.
They generated floor plans and also invited top Landing management to a luncheon in which the planners presented Sleiman with the concept and shared his feedback.
So how did Sleiman react to the planning exercise regarding his business?
“I was really pleased with what they put together. They were right on the money,” Sleiman said.
Vision and reality
Sleiman has talked about cutting through the middle of the Landing to open it up toward Laura Street, but he said the “super block” concept was something new and exciting.
He has also wanted to add more stores along with offices, condominiums, hotel rooms and a marina. But he says he can’t do it without the city’s help.
Sleiman and the Mayor’s Office haven’t been able to agree on a partnership that would provide more of the parking he wants and the financial help that would get his broader plans off the drawing boards.
He said the Mayor’s Office faces plenty of other challenges for now. But he’s optimistic something can be worked out in the future and that the Landing’s best days are ahead.
The planners’ efforts might seem like an exercise in futility. But the concrete starts with a vision.
Opening up the Landing to provide a more direct path to the river from downtown is appealing, and a super block concept anchored by the Landing is intriguing, as well.
Downtown, as downtown advocacy group Downtown Vision noted in a newly released report, is in crisis. Fewer people work downtown now than in previous years. Vacant properties and storefronts abound. Shopping and restaurant options are limited.
Yet, downtown is also like a canvas waiting for more paint. The Landing remains a primary watercolor, and the area’s open spaces â€" particularly along the waterfront â€" hold a great deal of potential for creating a vibrant place to be.
It will take bold thinking â€" even some off-the-charts visioning like the planners did â€" to make downtown fulfill its great potential.

See their proposals. Check out mockups of the vision by simply clicking on a link on the Times-Union’s Web site: bit.ly/LandingPlans (http://bit.ly/LandingPlans)
http://jacksonville.com/2010-04-04/story/jaksonville-landing-fresh-look

this was a fun project to be involved with...the charette was about 2.5 hours long and occurred while the state conference was here last September.

Metro Jacksonville did a front page article on the ffort a few months ago.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-dec-re-imagining-the-jacksonville-landing

I disagree that the landing is "dated". Not in the sense implied. The architecture is quit appealing imo, and after a visit to Houston's Minute Maid park (where the Astros play) one might think the architects designed the stadium while sitting in the food court at the Landing.
The place is charming. A new glizty structure would only attract folks until the novelty wears off. 

from today's Virginian-Pilot about Norfolk's Waterside, which seems to mirror Jax's situation with the Landing.  But why would the city take away the alcohol licenses from this struggling property?
http://hamptonroads.com/2010/08/norfolk-looks-cook-something-new-waterside

I noticed his use of the words "joy and sensibility" in discussing his work.

I think this is key to understanding the precise moment at which Jacksonville's urban train left the tracks and promptly plummeted off the side of the trestle down 1000 feet and into a giant fireball. At what point did "joy and sensibility" in urban design turn into "hassles and nonsense"? Because that's why nobody goes downtown.

chris..........the parking issue's were cured............supposedly this is the cure all to fix the Landing up.....right?

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 12, 2010, 12:42:26 PM
chris..........the parking issue's were cured............supposedly this is the cure all to fix the Landing up.....right?

The landing is only partly responsible for its own sad state, the wreck of our downtown is also responsible for the Landing's troubles. Hard for a shopping center to do well when there is nobody to go there, no? But with that said, at least having dedicated parking where people don't get ticketed and have to feed meters every 45 minutes will certainly help things.

Poignant Letter to the T-U Editor, 04/10/04

QuoteBy The Times-Union
,

Get a grip, Jacksonville

Visit "therousecompany.com" and you'll learn about a 65-year-old company that operates over 50 regional shopping malls in places like Las Vegas, Chicago and Washington D.C. The Rouse Co., which developed The Jacksonville Landing and since sold it, also operates dozens of major office buildings properties nationwide plus highly acclaimed downtown projects that include Faneuil Hall Marketplace in Boston; South Street Seaport in New York; The Gallery at Market East in Philadelphia; Harborplace and The Gallery at Harborplace in Baltimore; Bayside Marketplace in Miami; Westlake Center in Seattle; and Pioneer Place in Portland. Their properties include tenants like Nordstroms, Brooks Brothers and Neiman Marcus (in Florida).

The Rouse organization is a publicly traded, highly skilled and knowledgeable real estate company that has won national and international recognition for their development, designs and management. Their projects are generally visually vibrant, commercially active contributors to the regions they serve. They are sophisticated people who know how to do a deal.

Rouse did not sell The Jacksonville Landing and take an approximate $20 million write-off unadvisedly. Rouse did not leave good money on the table and walk away from a potentially "super" market opportunity.

Toney Sleiman is an experienced and successful local developer who has demonstrated competence at knocking down pine trees, getting curb cuts and building suburban strip shopping centers of pedestrian design, at best, tenanted with nail salons, mid-price chain stores and carry-out restaurants and drug stores. Their most significant contribution to the nearby subdivisions they serve has, in my opinion, been to make the drive to the beach or office visually unattractive and unpleasantly congested.

Perhaps it's time for a reality check. Too many people are starting to take the Super Bowl hype too seriously. Let's keep things in perspective when it comes to giving tax money for redevelopment at The Landing.

RICHARD MARREN, real estate/marketing, Jacksonville

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 12, 2010, 02:43:16 PM

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 12, 2010, 12:42:26 PM
chris..........the parking issue's were cured............supposedly this is the cure all to fix the Landing up.....right?

The landing is only partly responsible for its own sad state, the wreck of our downtown is also responsible for the Landing's troubles. Hard for a shopping center to do well when there is nobody to go there, no? But with that said, at least having dedicated parking where people don't get ticketed and have to feed meters every 45 minutes will certainly help things.

They already had a lot like this....charges $1/hr and $5 on weekend nights....it is rarely full

Well .....JEDC appears to have no problem at all, setting Vescor up with loans totaling $36 Million Dollars plus! Then the City Council writes off the payments, interest only for x number years! Maybe its just my take on the situation but it appears to me, there are rules for one set of people and a completely different set of rules for the voters. We just get to foot the bill, but have no say in squat! Parking is only one part of the Landing equation.....viable energetic stores is another part........maybe something as simple as a water side landing for boats would help! Toney is concerned about the land side of things and is not looking beyond  his limited view! There appears to me to be options that are not that expensive and not even discussed!

PLEASE.... WTF does The Jacksonville Landing and freaking Vescor have to do with each other?

I spent nearly the entire weekend at the Landing and I can tell you... I met QUITE a few out of towners, QUITE a few and all of them left with a good impression of the Landing... not so much the rest of downtown.  Matter of fact, I met two very good looking women and their(what I assume would be) their children on Laura Street Saturday around 11am.  They asked me where the Subway was, to which I replied 'its one block up north and one block west of where we're at now in the middle of Heming Plaza... BUT they are closed on the weekends'  To which they responded 'seriously? where can we eat lunch around here?'  I said 'The Landing has a food court and a few casual restaurants, thats your best bet'  I saw them about an hour later with their kids playing in the fountains commenting about how nice this space was and that they wish their city has a space like this.

There were a good number of out of town guests this weekend downtown and all of them commented about the uniqueness of the Landing(it was especially packed Fri and Sat evening/night) and how derelict the remainder of downtown was.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 12, 2010, 06:20:44 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 12, 2010, 02:43:16 PM

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 12, 2010, 12:42:26 PM
chris..........the parking issue's were cured............supposedly this is the cure all to fix the Landing up.....right?

The landing is only partly responsible for its own sad state, the wreck of our downtown is also responsible for the Landing's troubles. Hard for a shopping center to do well when there is nobody to go there, no? But with that said, at least having dedicated parking where people don't get ticketed and have to feed meters every 45 minutes will certainly help things.

They already had a lot like this....charges $1/hr and $5 on weekend nights....it is rarely full

That lot is rarely full on most weeknights.  It is almost always at capacity on weekend nights however.

You are right Fieldfam, my daughter and I went to the Main Library today and wanted to have some lunch afterwards but nothing, and I mean nothing was open but the Landing. My little one had her heart set on BG, but alas also closed, in fact the all the way from the library to LB was empty and closed :-(

At least Chamblins is open Saturday... but that's really it food-wise at lunchtime.  La Cena is open in the evenings... but Laura Street still has a LONG way to go unfortunately to become ground zero of DT.

Quote from: fieldafm on September 12, 2010, 07:44:41 PM
PLEASE.... WTF does The Jacksonville Landing and freaking Vescor have to do with each other?

I spent nearly the entire weekend at the Landing and I can tell you... I met QUITE a few out of towners, QUITE a few and all of them left with a good impression of the Landing... not so much the rest of downtown.  Matter of fact, I met two very good looking women and their(what I assume would be) their children on Laura Street Saturday around 11am.  They asked me where the Subway was, to which I replied 'its one block up north and one block west of where we're at now in the middle of Heming Plaza... BUT they are closed on the weekends'  To which they responded 'seriously? where can we eat lunch around here?'  I said 'The Landing has a food court and a few casual restaurants, thats your best bet'  I saw them about an hour later with their kids playing in the fountains commenting about how nice this space was and that they wish their city has a space like this.

There were a good number of out of town guests this weekend downtown and all of them commented about the uniqueness of the Landing(it was especially packed Fri and Sat evening/night) and how derelict the remainder of downtown was.

Should've sent them to Winn-Dixie instead, apparently that counts as a restaurant downtown...  ::)  ::)

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 12, 2010, 06:20:44 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 12, 2010, 02:43:16 PM

Quote from: CS Foltz on September 12, 2010, 12:42:26 PM
chris..........the parking issue's were cured............supposedly this is the cure all to fix the Landing up.....right?

The landing is only partly responsible for its own sad state, the wreck of our downtown is also responsible for the Landing's troubles. Hard for a shopping center to do well when there is nobody to go there, no? But with that said, at least having dedicated parking where people don't get ticketed and have to feed meters every 45 minutes will certainly help things.

They already had a lot like this....charges $1/hr and $5 on weekend nights....it is rarely full

Well what I meant by help things is that now the Landing can actually get tenants, not that anybody is going to be any happier paying to park than they were before. Free parking is required for DT moving forward, to stop the bleeding.

I posted this in another thread

One thing that would improve Jacksonville's image would be to make the landing more assesable to small boats (You would think with a name like that they would have already done this) making it a premiere waterfront destination is a no brainer. Take the boat out and have lunch at the landing. All they would have to do is place floating docks up to the obstructions just off the seawall.

I know they have a few moorings but just not enough to make it a true destination and if you look at there web sight there is nothing about moorings. I not sure are there any electrical shore ties, fresh water and pumpstations. I know there is no fuel. I use to tie up there in the mid 90s in a Coast Guard 82 ft Patrol boat and it was a pain in the @ss 

Quote from: samiam on September 12, 2010, 08:17:58 PM
I posted this in another thread

One thing that would improve Jacksonville's image would be to make the landing more assesable to small boats (You would think with a name like that they would have already done this) making it a premiere waterfront destination is a no brainer. Take the boat out and have lunch at the landing. All they would have to do is place floating docks up to the obstructions just off the seawall.

Samian
With all due respect, have you been to the Landing??  It is VERY accessible by small boats.  On special event weekends, you are correct... but on any normal weekend, the floating docks always have spaces.  I went to the Landing for lunch by boat two Saturdays ago matter of fact, and was met up there by three other boats.

Quote from: fieldafm on September 12, 2010, 08:21:37 PM

Quote from: samiam on September 12, 2010, 08:17:58 PM
I posted this in another thread

One thing that would improve Jacksonville's image would be to make the landing more assesable to small boats (You would think with a name like that they would have already done this) making it a premiere waterfront destination is a no brainer. Take the boat out and have lunch at the landing. All they would have to do is place floating docks up to the obstructions just off the seawall.

Samian
With all due respect, have you been to the Landing??  It is VERY accessible by small boats.  On special event weekends, you are correct... but on any normal weekend, the floating docks always have spaces.  I went to the Landing for lunch by boat two Saturdays ago matter of fact, and was met up there by three other boats.

It would sure be nice if they put in some shore power hookups there.

Quote from: samiam on September 12, 2010, 08:17:58 PM
I posted this in another thread

One thing that would improve Jacksonville's image would be to make the landing more assesable to small boats (You would think with a name like that they would have already done this) making it a premiere waterfront destination is a no brainer. Take the boat out and have lunch at the landing. All they would have to do is place floating docks up to the obstructions just off the seawall.

I know they have a few moorings but just not enough to make it a true destination and if you look at there web sight there is nothing about moorings. I not sure are there any electrical shore ties, fresh water and pump stations. I know there is no fuel.     ...................................................................................................I use to tie up there in the mid 90s in a Coast Guard 82 ft Patrol boat and it was a pain in the @ss 

Given the location in the current long term tie up might not be a good idea. Electrical shore ties, freshwater, and pump stations are fine but all marina things not restruant parking lot things. As stated in other posts there are floating docks there. They have been added to since the orignial dock was installed. It is accessable for small boats.


Captian.....if tieing up hurts you there you're not doing it right.

IF removing a center slice of the current horseshoe in order to achieve a water view down Laura Street from from Hemming at Monroe, also means relocating the escalators.. . it seems far flung.

I remember Mr.Sleiman's "It's about time" presentation when he busted out the ambitious scale model of the clock tower hotel and surrounds.

I still sorta want to see Balanky's sky cart contraption a reality oneday - even if it does fall into the river st.john

The escalators would have remained in place. The section that would have been demolished is where the B Dalton bookstore used to be.