http://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/iconic-historic-building-in-jacksonville-infested-with-termites/244831212
"One of the River City's most iconic and historic buildings is infested with termites and will soon have to be torn down.
The Women's Club of Jacksonville is adjacent to the Cummer Museum on Riverside Avenue. The museum had plans to renovate that building, but now they have to start from scratch."
You've got to be kidding me.
That's a ton of money to spend to only now figure out it must be torn down. It will be interesting to see what replaces it.
Terrible
The loss of the building is enormous (along with the $7 million invested in acquisition and restoration of the exterior of the building itself.)
However the bigger picture for the entire neighborhood is that particular species of termite itself. They aren't the normal subterranean termite that most of us are aware of. They are voracious eaters; and don't just eat wood, they eat anything that gets in the way of getting to the wood.
Homeowners and business owners in the entire neighborhood should be very afraid. It's time to call your personal pest control service for an inspection and begin prevention if you haven't already.
The loss of one building is bad, the loss of multiple buildings in the historic district to this pest would be worse.
In the end, cutting losses and moving forward is the right thing to do. The Cummer has part of it's collection in storage and needs room to expand for multiple reasons. I am hopeful that the new building will blend in with the architecture and style of the neighborhood.
The French Quarter in New Orleans was hit hard by those Formosan Termites. Walking the sidewalks there you will see the silver metal tops of the Sentricon System everywhere.
One homeowner showed me where they had eaten up through his floor and into the leg of a desk, then through the whole desk.
Quote from: Dog Walker on April 27, 2016, 11:40:03 AM
The French Quarter in New Orleans was hit hard by those Formosan Termites. Walking the sidewalks there you will see the silver metal tops of the Sentricon System everywhere.
One homeowner showed me where they had eaten up through his floor and into the leg of a desk, then through the whole desk.
And yet, the French Quarter still stands...
From what I have been told about these termites, it is not really the termite itself, it is mostly the shear numbers of them, many times the "normal" size of the colonies of "regular" termites. It still takes years to get a colony large enough to do this much damage. From what I can tell, this building has sat untouched since 2008? A long time and you would be hard pressed to convince me at least part of this is not the desire to go in a different direction than was planned years ago.
Still, as the Historic Guidelines state that cost of rehab or repairs should not be taken in consideration and often isn't if you are the "wrong" person, this group, with Wayne Wood giving support, is obviously the right group to get a historic building torn down and get accolades for doing it.
If it is torn down (and I question the true need, though I'm sure demo and new is far less costly) the new building should not blend but rather stand out and be a great illustration of new architectural design.
insider information? How was it determined on this site that they are formosa termites?
Quote from: twojacks on April 27, 2016, 12:51:06 PM
insider information? How was it determined on this site that they are formosa termites?
RAP just sent out a newsletter stating that they are Formosan terminates, so plenty of people were already informed of this detail.
I don't think I've read anything that makes me sadder in a long time. I got married there 18 years ago, and peak inside every time I go to The Cummer (at least once a month). I guess I better get down there and take some nostalgic photos, DAMN!!!
Quote from: strider on April 27, 2016, 12:36:00 PMIt still takes years to get a colony large enough to do this much damage. From what I can tell, this building has sat untouched since 2008? A long time and you would be hard pressed to convince me at least part of this is not the desire to go in a different direction than was planned years ago.
I was thinking the same thing. You'd be hard pressed to convince me that an infestation so large that the building needs to come down would go completely unnoticed.
Quote from: acme54321 on April 27, 2016, 02:12:06 PM
Quote from: strider on April 27, 2016, 12:36:00 PMIt still takes years to get a colony large enough to do this much damage. From what I can tell, this building has sat untouched since 2008? A long time and you would be hard pressed to convince me at least part of this is not the desire to go in a different direction than was planned years ago.
I was thinking the same thing. You'd be hard pressed to convince me that an infestation so large that the building needs to come down would go completely unnoticed.
Ditto - I hate to say this, because the are such good neighborhood stewards, but the first thing I thought...how did Cummer let it go this long and let it get this bad???
According to the email Cummer sent out, they've been aware of the problem for months and have been trying to deal with it ever since, to no avail. There are proposed treatments but they aren't reliable and may not solve the problem, even if they devoted the money toward that.
No journalistic skepticism?
Quote from: stephendare on April 27, 2016, 03:27:32 PM
The problem is that the building (which was free of termites four years ago) hasn't been infected with regular local variety termites. Its been infested by a particularly nasty strain of formosan termite. You can't simply bag the building and fumigate them. They don't breed the way that our indigenous termites breed, and bagging the building kills a generation of them, but even with the most thorough fumigation, the entire building is likely to be reinfested within six months.
Were there no termite inspections done in the last 4 years? What has the Cummer done to attempt to eradicate the colony? Why are they willing to treat and save the surrounding trees and not the building? I want more information.....
Obviously, the Cummer will not be able to use an excavator to demolish for fear of spreading the infestation.
What is their plan for hand demolition?
That's a good question Sheclown.
What can they do with the existing materials? I know there is a huge market for old timber like that, but if its infested it would probably be best to just burn the stuff. How about the bricks, windows, and other accoutrements? I'm sure they can sell and recoup a small fraction of the money. Shoot, I'd be willing to purchase some bricks myself.
It's a shame that Chlordane was taken off of the market. I know that it persists, and is toxic, but the only product that was really effective. The entire area should be rightfully afraid, and I would assume not pest company will take any new bonds, or guarantee treatment, since this is in the area.
Anyone who drives across the Main Street bridge into Downtown sees a building many would have said was not salvageable and yet.....
We recently came up with a method to save a badly termite damaged structure and re-purpose it for a better use. I admit we were not facing Formosa Termites but we were not dealing with an iconic brick structure either or anything like the budget the Cummer seems to have.
Historic Buildings should not be taken down as lightly as they are here in Jacksonville. So, while it may seem to be an attack on the people running the Cummer non-profit, it is not. It is a struggle to insure every single historic structure gets it's day in court and if demolition is asked for by anyone, it should be the hardest thing to do period. Since the City itself will not enforce it's own ordinances involving the historic structures in anything but an arbitrary and capricious manor, the public needs to scream loud and long even if it sometimes seems unfair to those wishing to demolish a historic structure. In fact, the people running the Cummer should be welcoming the conversation as it truly is the only way to vet the request for demolition here in Jacksonville.
I would love to see this get the same renovation that the bostwick building received, but I'm sure the Cummer has been in touch with them and has determined that this isn't a feasible option.
The issue becomes, what is "feasible" and who determines that?
It's just that when we have indeed reached out in past owner demolition situations, we were ignored mainly because we represent the alternative when owners want demolition. I'm having trouble believing this would be any different.
I have informed myself about Formosa termites. They are nasty and are a great concern. But other areas of the country are surviving them and other buildings have as well.
Following along and here's my take from the last bit:
Cummer: We're exploring options, demolition has to be part of the conversation.
Strider: There are other options. Talk to me.
Cummer: We're exploring options, demolition has to be part of the conversation.
Strider: Why does everyone only want to tear down historic fabric.
Cummer: We're exploring options, demolition has to be part of the conversation.
Strider: I can't believe they just want to demo.
Cummber: We're exploring opti.... Nvmd. You're right. We just spent millions bringing everything up to date while maintaining the historic fabric of the building and now that we've found a few little buggies, we're using that to justify leveling the whole goddamn thing.
I appreciate the effort that you and yours do in Springfield, Strider. Because of your group, there IS original stock left, but in this case, I think you're way off base. Take a step back; a few deep breaths and put the cynicism in your pocket for a few moments.
QuoteMy comments here reflect that I said I would report back from my conversation, which I have diligently done and included some research that I did on my own afterwards.
While I am saddened to learn of the buildings demise, I am excited to know that Jacksonville is now home to many new "termite experts" out here at Metro Jacksonville. Now I know where to come for my Wood Destroying Organism questions on real estate properties.
8)
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 28, 2016, 05:20:52 PM
Following along and here's my take from the last bit:
Cummer: We're exploring options, demolition has to be part of the conversation.
Strider: There are other options. Talk to me.
Cummer: We're exploring options, demolition has to be part of the conversation.
Strider: Why does everyone only want to tear down historic fabric.
Cummer: We're exploring options, demolition has to be part of the conversation.
Strider: I can't believe they just want to demo.
Cummber: We're exploring opti.... Nvmd. You're right. We just spent millions bringing everything up to date while maintaining the historic fabric of the building and now that we've found a few little buggies, we're using that to justify leveling the whole goddamn thing.
I appreciate the effort that you and yours do in Springfield, Strider. Because of your group, there IS original stock left, but in this case, I think you're way off base. Take a step back; a few deep breaths and put the cynicism in your pocket for a few moments.
From Action News:
QuoteSince it is a historic building, the museum has to work with the state on the demolition, so there isn't an exact date for the demolition, McMath said.
McMath said the plan is to get all of it in motion in the summer, and eventually be able to take advantage of the new building.
Hmmmm. I have no idea why I would possibly come to think that Demolition has already been determined to be their best course of action......
Stephen, you're defending the Cummer when there is no need to. You even changed the name of the thread. Are you going to get the various news outlets to change the title of their stories as well?
Nice one though. I asked for the contact info via PM, you reply so you can use it in an attempt at discrediting my post.
Overall, yes, the termite issue is a bad one. Yes, it may have made the building impractical to save. Doesn't change the quotes from people involved with the Cummer that demolition is the path they are going to use, or at least want to.
Let's see, a quick couple of minutes on line and we have News 4, FCN, Times Union, WOKV and even the Cummer's own blog stating that demolition is what is needed and going to happen but nice to know they are telling you otherwise.
When I get a done with work, I'll reach out and see what they say for myself. However, as I think it is best to reach out as PSOS, I will defer to what the others want to do and how they want to do it.
Quote from: strider on April 29, 2016, 11:29:25 AM
Stephen, you're defending the Cummer when there is no need to. You even changed the name of the thread. Are you going to get the various news outlets to change the title of their stories as well?
Nice one though. I asked for the contact info via PM, you reply so you can use it in an attempt at discrediting my post.
Overall, yes, the termite issue is a bad one. Yes, it may have made the building impractical to save. Doesn't change the quotes from people involved with the Cummer that demolition is the path they are going to use, or at least want to.
Let's see, a quick couple of minutes on line and we have News 4, FCN, Times Union, WOKV and even the Cummer's own blog stating that demolition is what is needed and going to happen but nice to know they are telling you otherwise.
When I get a done with work, I'll reach out and see what they say for myself. However, as I think it is best to reach out as PSOS, I will defer to what the others want to do and how they want to do it.
If they are leaning on demolition, instead of fighting to figure the way to save the building and destroy the termites that is a problem.
^That's making the assumption that the Cummer just started working on this issue earlier this week.
Formosan termites are a version of subterranean termites and as such, live in the ground. Here's my question:
How in the heck is demolishing the historic building going to destroy the 'crazy destructive species of Formosan termites'?
Should make a great bonfire. Should we save it for July 4?
Quote from: strider on April 29, 2016, 11:29:25 AM
However, as I think it is best to reach out as PSOS, I will defer to what the others want to do and how they want to do it.
What is a PSOS? I know what a POS is. Is that the plural form?
I thought heart pine wood was impervious to termites ?
Why did the Cummer not purchase a termite bond when they acquired this property? It would be a shame to see the neighborhood loose this landmark due to this oversight.
Quote from: johncb on April 29, 2016, 03:12:16 PM
I thought heart pine wood was impervious to termites ?
Just a myth. Real heart pine is less susceptible or at least may have been when first cut (as in: so I have been told...) than other woods, but for a fact today if the conditions are right, the subterranean termites like it as much as anything. Dry wood termites seems to actually prefer it! They often eat the fancy wood work first - like your floors, trim, windows and doors.
What I will say about the old heart pine structures, a pack of termites (yeah, probably not the right word.) can just about make a ten year old 2x4 totally disappear. I often see 100 year old 2x4's with all of the sapwood totally gone and the wood retains some strength because there is probably 30 to 40 years of growth in a 100 year old 2x4 and maybe 4 to 6 years in a new one. I'm sure there are experts out here that can explain it much better than I but the type of pine and length of time it had to grow makes the big difference today. You can actually say, wood isn't what it used to be. Newest building codes actually changed loads because of it. So, newer wood construction can be said to be more susceptible to termites than the historic structures are.
Termites are not the only pest we need to worry about here in Florida. Lots of little pests eat wood and do so with veracity.
While all the news outlets seem to be quoting folks from the Cummer with saying it's demo time, Stephen is saying those same folks from the Cummer are saying otherwise. Wouldn't it be nice that if they were earlier convinced that demo was the solution, once they saw that much of the public would rather not loose this building, they are now willing to stop and take another look at things? Perhaps there is hope that a innovative solution to save the building can be found and embraced.
And for those that may not know, PSOS is Preservation SOS. While originally formed to combat demolitions that happen in Historic Springfield, the organization has worked hard to stop or at least slow down needless demolitions all over Jacksonville.
Quote from: Sandyfeets on April 27, 2016, 11:18:04 AM
The loss of the building is enormous (along with the $7 million invested in acquisition and restoration of the exterior of the building itself.)
However the bigger picture for the entire neighborhood is that particular species of termite itself. They aren't the normal subterranean termite that most of us are aware of. They are voracious eaters; and don't just eat wood, they eat anything that gets in the way of getting to the wood.
Homeowners and business owners in the entire neighborhood should be very afraid. It's time to call your personal pest control service for an inspection and begin prevention if you haven't already.
The loss of one building is bad, the loss of multiple buildings in the historic district to this pest would be worse.
In the end, cutting losses and moving forward is the right thing to do. The Cummer has part of it's collection in storage and needs room to expand for multiple reasons. I am hopeful that the new building will blend in with the architecture and style of the neighborhood.
Quote from: CutterJ on April 29, 2016, 03:24:47 PM
Why did the Cummer not purchase a termite bond when they acquired this property? It would be a shame to see the neighborhood loose this landmark due to this oversight.
Most termite bonds exclude formosan termite infestations
Unfortunately, Stephen was right, my post was inaccurate. The Cummer folks have not changed their minds and if Stephen was ever right in the opinion that they might change from a position of a need for demolition, the most recent information posted by Stephen confirms it is indeed demo time.
Perhaps it is time to reflect upon what level of new makes a contributing historic structure new rather than the historic building it once was.
The Bostwich building, when it opens as the Cowford Chop House, will it be a new building that used bits and pieces of a once Historic Landmark or will be be a great save?
Based solely on the information released publicly and realizing that information released by those wishing to get approval for a demolition is often biased to that end, it does appear that any "save" of the Woman's Club would result in the saving of the skin of a Historic Landmark and not much else. The fear factor here will be great and little to no wood to feed the termites would be the only way to bring a high comfort level that the issue would not return.
While I am confident that a new structure could be built to give us the appearance of the Woman's Club, at what point does it stop being the Woman's Club?
If appearance is what matters and the Bostwick is still a great saved landmark, then why all the fuss about saving one single window on the part of the HPC?
While Jacksonville may indeed loose a great landmark, we can certainly gain from a proper and frank discussion and perhaps move Jacksonville's current arbitrary and capricious enforcement of the Historic Guidelines into a fair and useful place.
Stephen, stop it. You told me the person I should talk to was not available until Monday so why try to "hit" me over this? I have only repeated what every single news outlet and the Cummer folks themselves have already said. Get it together man!
Just Kidding! Sort of.
Please re-read my post and see that I did not insult or call names and that it actually is accurate to everything you posted. And perhaps rather than somehow find something offensive were there isn't anything, make real comments about what could be a real conversation over demolitions and why and how they happen.
Or let's have a stupid shit fight, it might be fun after all! Saturday's on MJ are kinda of slow.
QuotePerhaps it is time to reflect upon what level of new makes a contributing historic structure new rather than the historic building it once was.
The Bostwich building, when it opens as the Cowford Chop House, will it be a new building that used bits and pieces of a once Historic Landmark or will be be a great save?
Based solely on the information released publicly and realizing that information released by those wishing to get approval for a demolition is often biased to that end, it does appear that any "save" of the Woman's Club would result in the saving of the skin of a Historic Landmark and not much else. The fear factor here will be great and little to no wood to feed the termites would be the only way to bring a high comfort level that the issue would not return.
While I am confident that a new structure could be built to give us the appearance of the Woman's Club, at what point does it stop being the Woman's Club?
If appearance is what matters and the Bostwick is still a great saved landmark, then why all the fuss about saving one single window on the part of the HPC?
While Jacksonville may indeed loose a great landmark, we can certainly gain from a proper and frank discussion and perhaps move Jacksonville's current arbitrary and capricious enforcement of the Historic Guidelines into a fair and useful place.
Quote from: stephendare on April 27, 2016, 03:27:32 PM
The problem is that the building (which was free of termites four years ago) hasn't been infected with regular local variety termites. Its been infested by a particularly nasty strain of formosan termite. You can't simply bag the building and fumigate them. They don't breed the way that our indigenous termites breed, and bagging the building kills a generation of them, but even with the most thorough fumigation, the entire building is likely to be reinfested within six months.
Here are some questions I have and some information I've received by folks researching the property and the termite issue. Has Cummer actually installed the bait traps since they supposedly discovered the problem 9 months ago. Did they have a termite bond on the building and if not, why not? When Cummer received state funds to help renovate the building, those funds came with a 10-year covenant to preserve the building. That covenant expired in January 2016. Formosan termites can be killed with the same stuff that kills other kinds of termites. So why wouldn't a bond cover all termites if you had a bond? Can the building be saved and restored but Cummer is choosing not to or can it really not be saved?
Did they get a termite bond when they treated in 2008? I'm very confused about this as information I've gotten is that a bond would cover termites period, not exclude Formosan. Did they have the building specifically inspected for termites when it was sitting there for years after?
Just some light reading on the Formosan Termite:
http://www.pestworld.org/pest-guide/termites/formosan-termites/
http://www.epestsupply.com/formosan_termites.php#map
http://www.termite.com/termites/formosan-subterranean-termite.html
Note that it is the shear size of the colonies and their more aggressive nature that makes them so much worse than "regular" subterranean termites. They can not chew through brick and concrete as some believe. They still need a moisture source to thrive. They can be killed and the same basic treatments that work on our "regular" termites work on them, but again, it is the huge size of the colony, which can takes years to mature, that causes the biggest stumbling block to controlling them.
A good article:
http://www.clemson.edu/cafls/departments/esps/factsheets/household_structural/formosan_subterranean_termites_hs26.html
Quote
Are Formosan subterranean termites, super termites, resistant to termiticides? No. Termites are not resistant to any insecticides. On average, one Formosan termite worker is the same as a native subterranean termite worker. A bigger problem with Formosan subterranean termites is their potential colony size. Researchers often find Formosan subterranean termite colonies are larger than native subterranean termite colonies. It is possible to have Formosan subterranean termite colonies with several million workers. More workers means more individuals can feed on a structure at a given time. It also means that more individuals may be tunneling and foraging around a building, providing an increased chance of Formosan subterranean termites finding a weakness in a termite treatment.
Don't Formosan subterranean termites make nests with no ground contact? They can, but not as often as most people think. An intensive survey of 50 structures infested with Formosan subterranean termites in Charleston, showed that 94% of the buildings were infested from ground-based colonies. Only 6% were infested by aerial colonies. An above-ground moisture source was the key component for Formosan subterranean termites to establish an aerial nest. Soil treatments will not impact aerial nests, but based on the Charleston study, approximately 95% of the time, Formosans subterranean termites will be invading a structure from the ground.
Can Formosan subterranean termites infest live trees? Yes. Survey data from around the United States reports Formosan subterranean termites in live trees. In Charleston, researchers reported Formosan subterranean termites in 17 different tree species. In most cases, the presence of termites in trees is a secondary indication of a primary problem with the tree due to disease, injury or other pests. However, like a weakness in a termiticide treatment, Formosan subterranean termites will take advantage of a weakness in a tree.
......
QuoteCan Formosan subterranean termites be effectively controlled? Yes. Professional-use termiticides, baits and wood treatments are effective against Formosan termites at the same concentration levels used for native subterranean termites. Remember, individual Formosan workers are not resistant to insecticides and they are not "super termites". Thus professional-use products do not have special, higher concentration recommendations for Formosan subterranean termites over native subterranean termites. However, it is very important that soil and wood treatments be applied properly (labeled concentrations and volumes) and that baiting systems be meticulously monitored. Seldom is it possible for homeowners to inspect and effectively self-treat their own house for termites without the proper training, equipment and knowledge of termite behavior and habits.
Should I be frightened of Formosan subterranean termites? No. Do not underestimate their abilities, but there is no reason to fear Formosan subterranean termites. Pest management professionals have multiple control methods that are effective, and new and improved methods are being developed.
Here's a older (1998) article that talks about New Orleans. It is a bit more doom and gloom than many of the newer articles.
http://agresearchmag.ars.usda.gov/1998/oct/term
And a newer one that talks about biology a bit more.
http://www.lsuagcenter.com/topics/environment/insects/termites/formosan_termites/native_formosan/comparison-of-native-and-formosan-subterranean-termites-biology-ecology-and-methods-of-control
And a reminder as to why we are even bothering to read about Formosan Termtes:
http://jacksonville.com/entertainment/arts/2016-04-26/story/termite-infestation-forces-cummer-demolish-womans-club
And from the Cummer itself:
http://www.cummermuseum.org/content/cummer-museum-womans-club-building
QuoteQ: Why is the Cummer Museum demolishing the Woman's Club building?
A:
The building's wood interior, including its below-ground 89-year-old wooden foundation and basement, is infested with Formosan subterranean termites, a particularly destructive species that is nearly impossible to eradicate. There are substantial underground colonies in and around the building.
There are ways to treat for Formosan termite infestation and some have been tried in New Orleans and other cities. However, there is no guarantee the termites won't return and none of the pest control companies consulted were willing to provide a bond against Formosan termite damage. Re-infestation is a common problem. The Cummer Museum Board of Trustees made the difficult decision that it would be fiscally irresponsible to continue spending money on the renovation project without any guarantee to cover future damages caused by termites.
Let's say there are more than one way to save the Women's CLub building but it ends up being a re-construction project along the lines of the Boswick building. Perhaps it is time then to ask the question: If the only thing truly saved is the exterior walls, is the landmark still the landmark? Or is it a new building that looks like the landmark?
Perhaps we can find that answer by looking at the Boswick. Does the State and the Federal Historic folks still look at the building as the Historic Landmark eligible for the various tax credits and Historic Grants? If so, then it is still the Landmark. In that case, should the Women's club be saved at all costs or not?
I read the webpage Stephen posted. From that, I have a few questions:
QuoteQ: WHY IS THE CUMMER MUSEUM DEMOLISHING THE WOMAN'S CLUB BUILDING?
A: The building's wood interior, including its below-ground 89-year-old wooden foundation and basement, is infested with Formosan subterranean termites, a particularly destructive species that is nearly impossible to eradicate. There are substantial underground colonies in and around the building.
There are ways to treat for Formosan termite infestation and some have been tried in New Orleans and other cities. However, there is no guarantee the termites won't return and none of the pest control companies consulted were willing to provide a bond against Formosan termite damage. Re-infestation is a common problem. The Cummer Museum Board of Trustees made the difficult decision that it would be fiscally irresponsible to continue spending money on the renovation project without any guarantee to cover future damages caused by termites.
"There are ways to treat for Formosan termite infestation and some have been tried in New Orleans and other cities."
- Has the Cummer attempted to treat for the Formosan termites? If not, why not? The building was fumigated in February 2008 to drywood termites. What has the Cummer done since discovering the Formosan termites to attempt to eradicate the colony?
"However, there is no guarantee the termites won't return and none of the pest control companies consulted were willing to provide a bond against Formosan termite damage."
- No termite company will ever guarantee the termites will not return; what they do guarantee is re-treatment. That is what the bond is for. Certainly doing nothing will only cause more damage. Another fumigation will kill the live termites in the building, then the other methods used in other cities can be engaged to eradicate the underground colony.
QuoteAlthough we do not currently have a timeline for demolition, based on obtaining the necessary permits, when the building is taken down, the Museum plans to follow best practices put in place by New Orleans to ensure the wood does not end up in other buildings and that the Formosans are contained to the best of our ability.
By using phrases such as "when the building is taken down", it sounds to me like the Cummer has already made their decision to demolish.
QuoteDuring their February 2016 meeting, given the evidence and the recommendations of experts, the Cummer Museum Board of Trustees decided it was not fiscally responsible to continue to spend millions of dollars more to finish the renovations of the Woman's Club Building without a guarantee any future termite damage would be covered.
I'd like to see the official reports from the following:
An LSU professor of wood science
A Structural Engineer
Architects and Engineers
A UF entomologist
Formosan termites here are pretty rare, aren't they?
I just want to know what woman was so important that they built this entire club just for her.
Quote from: stephendare on May 02, 2016, 10:42:40 AM
great questions strider. And I think the answers will be solved by research and asking questions.
Is there any particular thing you would like for me to look up or into?
As you might have noted, I have been doing a decent amount of research and PSOS has decided they will handle contacting the Cummer directly. Meanwhile, is there anything you need me to explain to you?
The question:
If a Landmark is reconstructed such that only the exterior facade remains, is that Landmark still a valid Landmark?
The various laws and guidelines are constantly being re-interpreted here in Jacksonville so the opinion of the majority might sway the HPC leadership to set a more consistent course of action in regards to demolitions at least.
I also find this:
Quote
When Cummer received state funds to help renovate the building, those funds came with a 10-year covenant to preserve the building. That covenant expired in January 2016.
Interesting.
Quote from: stephendare on May 02, 2016, 01:26:19 PM
Quote from: Adam White on May 02, 2016, 12:42:32 PM
I just want to know what woman was so important that they built this entire club just for her.
The Women's Clubs associations were institutions throughout the country that provided places for women to be socially and politically relevant. Mostly they fought for voting rights in the early days, but that was hardly their only focus.
Here, they were especially powerful and left an incredible record of accomplishments which literally created the idea of modern Jacksonville.
The Public Board of Health, the implementation of the first City Plan in the southeast, the department of forestry and agriculture, literally the entire cultural institutional presence of the city, the list of their achievements goes on and on.
The "joke" as it were, was that it's the
Woman's Club of Jacksonville (not women's). I don't get that name.
The demolition request has been submitted for review by the Historic Preservation Commission (HPC). First review is apparently scheduled for the May 25th HPC meeting and is listed under New Business. Interestingly enough, the request was submitted on May 16th, 2016 which is after the meeting submission deadline.
An interesting fact is it appears that the Woman's Club was never a local landmark, only a Federal one, which does not give it the protections the local landmarks are granted. This fact is perhaps also why the ten year agreement was made with the State to preserve the building and why the demolition is now possible as that ten year period has passed. The building is also outside of the Riverside Historic District. This means the first step is to determine if the building should be granted local landmark status. For this to happen, the Commission needs to agree that the building meets four of seven criteria. Also of note is the fact that non-action by the HPC for 60 days and the demolition approval is automatically granted.
When we get a chance, we will put up the report prepared by Joel that is used to help determine whether the building should be a local landmark. It should also be stated that being declared a local landmark would only change the demotion approval process not necessarily save the building.
The fate of the Women's Club will be in the hands of the HPC at today's commission meeting that starts at 3:00. There are two possible outcomes from this meeting. The first is that the structure is determined to be not eligible for local landmark status and the demolition is approved and second is granting the structure local landmark status and in which case the process will continue onto City Council. If that happens, the City Council can go either way and either deny the landmark, approving the demolition, or approve the landmark, granting the building protections. Which means the owner could then start over and apply for a COA to demolish the structure. Interestingly enough, the staff report issued by Joel McEachin disagrees with the previous National Register report and states that the structure only qualifies 3 of the 7 criteria, dismissing a few out of hand, and therefore recommends denying landmark status.
Because the owners are against the local landmark status, the structure must meet 4 of the 7 listed criteria. I personally see that it meets 5 just from the staff report and can't possible see where it meets less than 4. But I am not the people charged with making the decision. I'm just a person who sees the hypocrisy of making it two to three times harder to change a window in a historic strucutre than it is to demolish the complete house.
Yet again I am disgusted by the actions taken by Jacksonville's Historic Preservation Commission. This afternoon they voted not only to NOT Landmark the Nationally recognized Jacksonville Womans Club on Riverside Avenue, but also to ALLOW its destruction.
Here is a link to today's agenda: http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/historic/agendas-(1)/2016/agenda-(6-22-16).aspx (http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/historic/agendas-(1)/2016/agenda-(6-22-16).aspx)
Someone please tell me WHERE the DEMOLITION of this historic structure was to be heard by the Commission...because I don't see it. Yet when a point of order was raised regarding what was to be decided today, the HPC attorney stated on record that the Agenda did not matter because everyone knew the demolition was requested. Hmmm....the only thing on the Agenda was the Landmarking decision.
Here is a link to the information provided by the Cummer: http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/historic/book/2016/cummer-termite-report.aspx (http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/historic/book/2016/cummer-termite-report.aspx)
If you scroll to page 34, you will see the following from Atlantic Engineering Services:
QuoteIn general, the Lane building is in good condition, but it does require repair and reinforcement.
This repair and reinforcement can be performed without a major removal of exterior finishes and roofing.
Does that sound like the building needed to come down?
The Staff report (found here: http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/historic/lm-16-03-woman-s-club.aspx (http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/historic/lm-16-03-woman-s-club.aspx)) stated the structure only met 3 of the 4 criteria required to be designated a Landmark, citing it did not meet Item (C)
QuoteIt is identified with a person or persons who significantly contributed to the development of the City, state or nation.
Terry Whistler and I both disagreed; the Womans Club absolutely IS identified with "persons" who significantly contributed to the development of the City. Just read the National Register of Historic Places paperwork; it is full of those contributions. Yet the Commission bogged themselves down in a debate over whether a single person contributed, without regard to "persons". They argued that they've never interpreted Item C as multiple people rather than a single individual. What a travesty...
The majority of the speakers spoke of the termite infestation itself; no one spoke of the current state of the building. Terry Whistler and I both stated that the demolition decision is NOT why we were here; we were here to determine whether the building deserved local Landmark designation.
In the end it didn't matter. The late admission of the original demolition request to May's meeting, coupled with the disregard for proper order seems to show the decision had already been made even before we showed up for the meeting.
Once again the City of Jacksonville has absolutely NO REGARD for its historic structures. The Bostwick Building is in way worse shape than the Womans Club. And someone please tell me this....how is the hell will tearing down an historic structure rid the area of Formosan termites? It won't....
very sad for the fabric of Riverside.
"I'm just a person who sees the hypocrisy of making it two to three times harder to change a window in a historic strucuture than it is to demolish the complete house." sad but true.
You will find an updated FAQ on the Cummer Museum website that provides answers to some of the questions being raised here. I will respond briefly to a few comments not addressed in the FAQ. There is no doubt that the building is significant and that the activities of the Woman's Club organization have had a positive impact on Jacksonville. Our founder, Ninah Cummer, was one of those early leaders of the Club and of this community. Their legacy lives on in the results of decades of supporting community efforts and still today as the continue to meet and grant funds to causes close to them.
No, tearing down the building does not rid the area of termites...we will have termites in this area for a long time to come and with a community-wide effort they will at least be managed and their spread controlled. The building is coming down because it cannot and will not be renovated due to existing damage (structural engineer report was only 2 months after finding the damage...bugs haven't stopped, even with treatment) and the lack of a long term solution to protect the building in the future.
Although it might on the surface seem like a quick or easy process (several have compared the ease of this decision to those of approving a new window in a historic structure) it was actually almost a year of intensive study, the involvement of experts across many fields, and a significant financial commitment. When all is said and done, the Museum will have spent almost $600,000 just looking for a solution. The plans for the building's renovation were still moving forward and funds being raised...even after finding the infestation. The renovations to the building were going to cost $8.5 million and much of the funding was in place. It would be very poor decision making to invest that kind of money and an additional $2 million for the termite mitigation efforts (architectural, structural, chemical, etc.) when all experts stated that nothing presented was a true solution...no guarantees for even short term viability.
We are incredibly sad about what has occurred and as an institution we invested a decade of planning, hard work, and $7 million generously contributed by members of this community. This was not a decision taken quickly, lightly, or without great seriousness. In fact, it wasn't much of a decision at all...but a process to understand the problem, respond to each devastating answer with a new search for a different solution, connect the dots between the complicated and somewhat unique set of circumstances, and move through the final realization of what cards we had been dealt.
If anyone is interested, the rest of the Museum buildings that house our invaluable collection and which serves as the place for impactful educational programming is an example of how newer construction is at little risk. The other building on our campus are constructed in a way and with materials that are much less at risk. We are doing all we can to keep our campus safe and hope that what we are doing as a protocol for long term treatment and control becomes part of the larger area-wide treatment plan that is essential to have real impact. We can look easily to other communities for success stories and ongoing challenges and I am glad that the City has assembled a group of people to get on top of the issue.
We will continue to be a voice for lifting up our history, preserving and conserving our community's artistic assets, educating children and adults on topics of relevance, and protecting the financial, artistic, and environmental assets that are the Cummer Museum. I invite you to check out the FAQ document and reach out to me at the Museum if you have specific questions.
Quote from: hopeart on June 23, 2016, 02:21:54 PM
You will find an updated FAQ on the Cummer Museum website that provides answers to some of the questions being raised here. I will respond briefly to a few comments not addressed in the FAQ. There is no doubt that the building is significant and that the activities of the Woman's Club organization have had a positive impact on Jacksonville. Our founder, Ninah Cummer, was one of those early leaders of the Club and of this community. Their legacy lives on in the results of decades of supporting community efforts and still today as the continue to meet and grant funds to causes close to them.
No, tearing down the building does not rid the area of termites...we will have termites in this area for a long time to come and with a community-wide effort they will at least be managed and their spread controlled. The building is coming down because it cannot and will not be renovated due to existing damage (structural engineer report was only 2 months after finding the damage...bugs haven't stopped, even with treatment) and the lack of a long term solution to protect the building in the future.
Although it might on the surface seem like a quick or easy process (several have compared the ease of this decision to those of approving a new window in a historic structure) it was actually almost a year of intensive study, the involvement of experts across many fields, and a significant financial commitment. When all is said and done, the Museum will have spent almost $600,000 just looking for a solution. The plans for the building's renovation were still moving forward and funds being raised...even after finding the infestation. The renovations to the building were going to cost $8.5 million and much of the funding was in place. It would be very poor decision making to invest that kind of money and an additional $2 million for the termite mitigation efforts (architectural, structural, chemical, etc.) when all experts stated that nothing presented was a true solution...no guarantees for even short term viability.
We are incredibly sad about what has occurred and as an institution we invested a decade of planning, hard work, and $7 million generously contributed by members of this community. This was not a decision taken quickly, lightly, or without great seriousness. In fact, it wasn't much of a decision at all...but a process to understand the problem, respond to each devastating answer with a new search for a different solution, connect the dots between the complicated and somewhat unique set of circumstances, and move through the final realization of what cards we had been dealt.
If anyone is interested, the rest of the Museum buildings that house our invaluable collection and which serves as the place for impactful educational programming is an example of how newer construction is at little risk. The other building on our campus are constructed in a way and with materials that are much less at risk. We are doing all we can to keep our campus safe and hope that what we are doing as a protocol for long term treatment and control becomes part of the larger area-wide treatment plan that is essential to have real impact. We can look easily to other communities for success stories and ongoing challenges and I am glad that the City has assembled a group of people to get on top of the issue.
We will continue to be a voice for lifting up our history, preserving and conserving our community's artistic assets, educating children and adults on topics of relevance, and protecting the financial, artistic, and environmental assets that are the Cummer Museum. I invite you to check out the FAQ document and reach out to me at the Museum if you have specific questions.
Right or wrong, even if there was no other best option to save the structure and everyone was on the same page, you would still get push back. Because that is exactly how this is supposed to work. A check and balance using the proper procedures and following all the rules, even when it may not be comfortable to do so. Today with this City's lack of support of it's Historic heritage, with the preservationists seeing and proving how few times the actual rules are truly followed; many of us believe we have given up the right to pick and choose what gets saved and what doesn't. That every single historic structure left standing deserves to be fought for up until the day the wrecking ball knocks it down.
Agreed... There is incredible value and importance in the fight to preserve and the process for transparency and debate.
Quote from: strider on June 23, 2016, 04:46:36 PM
Right or wrong, even if there was no other best option to save the structure and everyone was on the same page, you would still get push back. Because that is exactly how this is supposed to work. A check and balance using the proper procedures and following all the rules, even when it may not be comfortable to do so.
Totally agree and I feel than any rules (or values) for that matter that only get applied when it is convenient are basically worthless.
COJ is sending a fact-finding mission to New Orleans to learn how they handle their Formosan termites.
QuoteCOJ is sending a fact-finding mission to New Orleans to learn how they handle their Formosan termites.
Did they send Kerri and Wight? :-X