Commuter Rail: Overlooking the Inner City
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/s_line/DSC_0048.jpg)
Last month, JTA released maps showing initial locations for potential commuter rail stations. A lack of focus on Jacksonville's inner city communities stands out as a major oversight. The following list contains a few areas where urban rail stations should not be avoided.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/835
Springfield Warehouse District is a cool place.
What about the old rail that went over to east Union Street/
The old F&J is not a part of the three commuter rail routes chosen for the study, but it has potential in that we could build an inner city rail loop that would start downtown, hit a few Northside neighborhoods (S-Line/Shands) before heading south towards the Stadium District and running on Bay or Water Street to get back to the Prime Osborn. Ock has mentioned it on several occassions throughout the past year or two. It could also be a solution similar to Charlotte's where light rail and streetcars use the same line. The streetcars make shorter stops, while the light rail line makes limited stops in the same area.
Caltrain in the Bay Area also runs a similar styled service with commuter rail trains. Some trains stop at stations spaced a mile a part, while a Baby Bullet service travels at a higher speed, stopping at a select few station locations between Downtown and the suburbs.
A stop at NAS should be a no-brainer. I don't see the point in a Timuquana Road station unless it serves as a destination for a bus route along 103rd/Timuquana. Plus, a station at the Yorktown Gate would serve the new warehouse/industrial park developing at that intersection, as well as provide pedestrian or bike access to Tillie Fowler Park.
The more I study it the more I'm convinced the way to go is with streetcar from Gateway Mall - 21St St Station - straight south to the old Union Street Warehouse - Beaver - Newnan - Water - Union Station
Then:
Some form of LRT or standard DMU or Commuter Rail from Yulee - Airport - 21St St. - Shands - Union Station
In this plan we get two modes to grow with, plus 21St becomes a vital junction Station, Park and Ride, and retail/residential attraction.
Ocklawaha
The only negative with 21st is the warehouse district and New Springfield remain blighted, due to them being cut off from the station by MLK Parkway. So we get the rail, with less ability to economically revitalize an ideal section of the urban grid.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/S-Line-21stStreet.jpg)
The red circle indicates 1/4 mile walk radius from station centerpoint. JTA's maps indicate warehouse district station at Main. I'm shifting it over to the large S-Line ROW between Market and Liberty Streets.
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QuoteA stop at NAS should be a no-brainer. I don't see the point in a Timuquana Road station unless it serves as a destination for a bus route along 103rd/Timuquana. Plus, a station at the Yorktown Gate would serve the new warehouse/industrial park developing at that intersection, as well as provide pedestrian or bike access to Tillie Fowler Park.
A station should be located at both places. Remember there is no rule that EVERY train must stop at the station. But access to 103Rd for Bus Transit, as well as the base of Ortega, is just as vital to good transit health as a stop at Yukon.
YUKON?
Yes! It has a name, had a Post Office, is still on the railroad map as YUKON. The depot sat in front of the Main Gate of NAS. The area that is now a park, was once a busy little town. Crossing the tracks a bit north of the Main Gate will bring one into a virtual Ghost town. Only the pub, restaurant and tiny church survive. The church came from Black Point out on the River where NAS is today. It was moved when the Army took over the land in WWI. The Yukon Depot itself also survives, high and dry, somewhat altered and repainted. It is about 1/4 mile South of Orange Park Mall, on the left (EAST) side of Blanding. The Navy closed out the town in the 1960's as a flight hazard, then gave the land to Jacksonville for a park. In the early year of WWII, it is said there were Submarine Nests directly West of Yukon, in the Ortega River. Well hidden, it would explain a bunch of piles in the water and the extreme depth. Here is a shot of YUKON's, Dewey Park Housing neighborhood in 1940... Imagine, we play Tennis and baseball there today!(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/FLORIDA%20and%20Scenic%20Places/DeweyPark.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
Agree Lake, The trouble is the Streetcar, IF it were built that way, would not access the Liberty Street Station. But the Commuter Rail Could. There is no rule that should wipe out one or the other, in fact with a Jersey River Line, San Diego, or Austin type DMU, both stops + shands should be built.
Further, this is URBAN JACKSONVILLE, JTA could hardly expect stations 1-2 miles apart in the core. Past 21St street Northbound that Commuter Train could fly. The streetcar itself might reach 45 or 50 to Gateway on that NW angle, depending on a stop at North Main.
Ocklawaha
BTW, Norfolk Southern works the line daily... but only ONE JOB. Meaning nothing else uses the line. They go in in the lazy late AM and are out by 1-3PM daily.
The crews say the Train Master is looking for another job to come online if and when something is done at the port terminals... coal or container fuss.
(http://www.nolancompany.com/Main/Pictures/Photos-for-web-091603/Lg-PD-1-derail-flag.jpg)
Derail, does just what it says and they protect 1,000's of miles of track from roll-aways or run-throughs.
Meanwhile, I did the birds eye and hoofed it, it IS POSSIBLE to come up from Beaver, pass through the old Springfield Yard and enter the 21St St Station with only ONE AT GRADE CROSSING. That would be the NS just behind Swisher. Signals, and a DERAIL set against either line during off hours would protect the Light Rail or Streetcars.
Ocklawaha
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 07, 2008, 12:07:43 PM
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YUKON?
Yes! It has a name, had a Post Office, is still on the railroad map as YUKON. The depot sat in front of the Main Gate of NAS. The area that is now a park, was once a busy little town. Crossing the tracks a bit north of the Main Gate will bring one into a virtual Ghost town. Only the pub, restaurant and tiny church survive. The church came from Black Point out on the River where NAS is today. It was moved when the Army took over the land in WWI. The Yukon Depot itself also survives, high and dry, somewhat altered and repainted. It is about 1/4 mile South of Orange Park Mall, on the left (EAST) side of Blanding. The Navy closed out the town in the 1960's as a flight hazard, then gave the land to Jacksonville for a park. In the early year of WWII, it is said there were Submarine Nests directly West of Yukon, in the Ortega River. Well hidden, it would explain a bunch of piles in the water and the extreme depth. Here is a shot of YUKON's, Dewey Park Housing neighborhood in 1940... Imagine, we play Tennis and baseball there today!
OCKLAWAHA
Wow. I never knew Yukon was a town with buildings on that side of the tracks. I always assumed it was just a rail stop next to the base.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 07, 2008, 12:19:23 PM
BTW, Norfolk Southern works the line daily... but only ONE JOB. Meaning nothing else uses the line. They go in in the lazy late AM and are out by 1-3PM daily.
The crews say the Train Master is looking for another job to come online if and when something is done at the port terminals... coal or container fuss.
(http://www.nolancompany.com/Main/Pictures/Photos-for-web-091603/Lg-PD-1-derail-flag.jpg)
Derail, does just what it says and they protect 1,000's of miles of track from roll-aways or run-throughs.
Meanwhile, I did the birds eye and hoofed it, it IS POSSIBLE to come up from Beaver, pass through the old Springfield Yard and enter the 21St St Station with only ONE AT GRADE CROSSING. That would be the NS just behind Swisher. Signals, and a DERAIL set against either line during off hours would protect the Light Rail or Streetcars.
Ocklawaha
NS is expecting a new job at the old paper mill site, if the lawsuit between Keystone and Jaxport is ever cleared up. Keystone wants to turn the site into a coal terminal and the port wants it to expand its container operation I believe.
Dating myself again, but yes, it was quite extensive. I had some little friends when I was quite small that lived there. We lived in Ortega, and Dad was a Navy Exchange Officer. I don't remember who they were or how I met them today, but I do remember what seemed like miles of concrete "T" posts between the back yards for clothes lines.
I also recall a narrow one lane brick highway with tiny concrete curbs near the track in the NE of the old Post Office. It might still be there. Mr. Willis Butts a local Millionaire, and lifetime resident said it was remains of the "Old Orange Park Highway". I can't figure where it came over the tracks North of Yukon, if that is true.
Ocklawaha
NS is pulling hard for the Coal deal, but I think they'd do well either way as long as we don't cut them out of the loading zone for containers as is our history.
Ocklawaha
By the way, this exact plan was created by Metro Jacksonville in December 2006.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/272/
$400,000...the difference is they have the hard data (socioeconomic data, traffic forecasts, etc.) to back up the recommendations....all of which are necessary to get state and/or federal $
Hopefully, we won't lock ourselves into only considering state and/or federal funding as a resource to get a starter up and running locally. More and more cities are figuring out, if they want something done soon, they're going to have to find ways to move forward before jumping through the years of hopes the federal government throughs at them. Houston, Austin, Detroit, etc. are all examples of cities that have or are working to get the initial lines up, despite not gaining federal (or in Houston's case, even State assistance) dollars before getting started on that initial starter. We just have to remember, it does not have to immediately stretch to Yulee or Green Cove Springs. Even a five mile line can do wonders, as long as it directly connects quality destinations and walkable stops. Houston's 7.5 mile light rail line is a great example. Paid for with local dollars (without raising taxes), that starter line is already pulling in 40,000 riders a day. Its been so successful, the city gave the middle finger to the FTA, when that entity pushed them to expand with dedicated busways instead.