Fyi: http://jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=547186
After many years, COJ is finally accepting bid's for the property commonly known as 9th & Main. It's a great space.
A bit of history on the property:
http://m.jacksonville.com/news/premium-news/2013-06-14/story/jacksonvilles-investments-restaurants-not-likely-be-fully#showInfo=http://m.wap.jacksonville.com/news/premium-news/2013-06-14/story/jacksonvilles-investments-restaurants-not-likely-be-fully?fmt=www
^Hopefully this is the start of sales of more city-owned property. There is no point for COJ to own property like this.
Is this the same old RFP issue or are they actually trying to sell it like the commercial property it is. In the past, RFP's put too many restrictions and then had minimums that prevented even the most desirable types of places from getting it. Hopefully the City has learned that what is best is for the property to change hands regardless of whom gets it.
Yes, it's a RFP. I have a hunch this administration is more serious about seeing this sale through.
The problem with RFP's in this type of sales is that they often deal with use when it should not matter. Zoning will take care of use. Sell the building and get it back to productive use.
I've showed it and in the not too distant past brought them an offer. They have not taken care of it yet still want top dollar.
It's an unbelievable space. In the hands of a successful entrepreneur like John Valentino it would be amazing.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 09, 2016, 07:11:00 PM
I've showed it and in the not too distant past brought them an offer. They have not taken care of it yet still want top dollar.
Isn't that the same issue for many dt properties - city owned, or not ? The current asking price is often a multiple of what the buildings last sold for, before many years of neglect
The city always wants at or above market for properties that have substantial deferred maintenance, and then either doesn't understand or doesn't care why they don't sell. If this RFP is going to be treated the same as previously, the result is unlikely to be any different. It's now an older renovation that would be needing a redo even if it had actually been in continuous use and maintained. But it hasn't seen a lick of maintenance other than sporadically cutting the overgrowth and boarding up broken windows in 10 years. You're looking at all new HVAC units (assuming they haven't been pilfered by now - highly likely), plus whatever else. The only thing of value in there is Stephen Dare's 1-ton Hobart mixer, only because it was 7' high and too heavy to steal without a forklift. Most of the rest is gone. I was in there for some reason or another years ago, it's a shell with a roof that has maybe 6-8 more years of useable life left, needing $150k worth of electrical, plumbing, and HVAC. They can put out however many more RFP's they want, and unless they're willing to come off their previous numbers, it won't move.
The last time we went through a round of 3 or 4 of these, the highest offer was $130k, the city wanted something like $600k. Good luck with that.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on March 10, 2016, 08:40:04 AM
Some of the people looking at the building in the Daily Record don't inspire much confidence in turning this building around--Krumpin 4 Change, and a family friendly "dessert lounge"?
Yeah, it doesn't seem likely that that a place that big, in that area, and needing that much work will survive without a really good revenue stream. Nothing against either krumping or dessert, but...
I'm pretty excited about Krumpin 4 Change? My only question: are we talking about buskers krumping 4 pocket change, or societal change brought about by spastic dancing?
Ok I think this officially makes me old but what is krumping?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 10, 2016, 04:08:31 PM
Ok I think this officially makes me old but what is krumping?
I sure hope it's not that definition:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=krumping&defid=6454108 (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=krumping&defid=6454108)
lol it's this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krumping
The HVAC on the rooftop is long gone.
To put the condition into perspective, when I showed it to Bobby Kapuchansky of Carmine's Pizza in Riverside (2 years ago) there was food in the walk in cooler that had been there for at least 5 years. Just sitting there, encapsulated in mold and mildew. In other words, when the City took possession they never even bothered to clean out the building. To this day they have not spent the few hundred dollars it would take to do a basic clean up of the interior.
You can be sure a fair offer ($200,000-300,000) will probably not go anywhere.
So a realistic price would probably be land value minus demolition and disposal costs for the current building ?
Note: I'm absolutely not saying that the building should be demolished, just that if the cost to rehab a building is > the cost to build new then it has a negative value which should be taken into consideration as far as pricing goes.
The building itself is in decent shape, as the article mentions.
While the original building could be considered contributing, it is listed on the property appraisers database as being built just after the period of significance so probably not. This means the entire complex could be torn down tomorrow and it would be very difficult if not impossible to stop.
In this case, the building has been empty long enough it should be sold for a minimum amount so that the rehab is affordable for whomever gets it.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on March 11, 2016, 07:40:03 AM
The building itself is in decent shape, as the article mentions.
What caught my eye was the "decline over years" part plus many comments in the thread.
It may be decent compared to others but if bringing this decent structure up to standards / rehab it is more expensive than building a comparable structure new then the building does have a negative value and the city should consider this when determining their asking price.
This way, they would ensure to sell the property (it's not going to get better under their ownership it seems) and that it could in fact be rehabbed if the price is right and this is explicitely put in the contract (e.g. "if you rehab the existing structure we sell the property for price x, otherwise you pay price y).
9th & Main is now in good hands.
Strings Sports Brewery coming in 2018:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2017/06/29/contract-signed-for-9th-main-building-in.html?ana=e_me_set1&s=newsletter&ed=2017-06-29&u=vC1L0N7cUlzvidhV0KQpyg03f410dd&t=1498739961&j=78467111
A craft brewery & restaurant/sports bar.
^Interesting choice for that area. Best of luck to them, that's a pretty great spot.
This is more of the same crap with the City and the ridiculous RFP process.
No one actually knows what happened with this series of events.
It was supposed to be Bono's, that was the proposal that won.
Now it's completely different.
We'll never know what the building was worth because this process is so ridiculous.
I am glad something is being done with it because it is an amazing property, it's just the way
COJ handles this stuff. So unbelievably amateurish. Is it on record, anywhere in public view,
what the actual amount of past due fines and taxes was? If the City has had ownership for the last 7-9 years,
why the hell are there any past due taxes owed anyway? Aren't those the responsibility of the City to pay,
since they have been the owner of record for the last several years? Does the contract stipulate a time line for the
$600,000 in renovations spending and a specific opening date? Did anyone do any environmental remediation as was mentioned
several times before on MJ as holding up the progress? This is so reminiscent of that ridiculous restaurant sitting empty in the middle
of LaVilla. When the hell will that be re-opened? EVER? As long as COJ owns it there is little or no hope for it. City owned property is one of the biggest anchors on downtown re-development because the Real Estate Division is clueless and hamstrung by some of the most absurd red tape you will find anywhere. I'm pretty convinced this is why so much of the big recent developments are happening at Town Center and Butler/Southside. The City is for the most part out of the equation there so developers are happy to do projects there. Downtown, COJ has it's nasty fingers involved in everything and this RPF and the entire last 10-20 years are prima facia evidence of how 'effed' up the City is.
Have a nice day.
I assume the past due taxes are from when the previous owner owned it. There would be no taxes levied if the government owned it.
That should be public record. However the City foreclosed on this property several years ago. Shouldn't all past due taxes have been cleared up when the foreclosure was finalized?
I'm not an expert in municipal foreclosure proceedings but the city got the property. The previous owner got nothing. How can they continue to pursue past due taxes after the foreclosure? Maybe they can . I don't know. It certainly appears that the new owner is on the hook for those taxes/liens/fines etc....
That part does not make sense either.
This is all public record...
The contract can be read here: http://cityclts.coj.net/coj/COJBillList.asp?Bill=2017-0377 (http://cityclts.coj.net/coj/COJBillList.asp?Bill=2017-0377)
The property taxes can be seen here: http://fl-duval-taxcollector.publicaccessnow.com/propertytaxsearch/accountdetail.aspx?p=071810-0000 (http://fl-duval-taxcollector.publicaccessnow.com/propertytaxsearch/accountdetail.aspx?p=071810-0000)
The tax liens had already been sold when the City took the property back. At that time, they were much lower. The City could have paid them off then. Instead, they racked up a lot of interest over the last 7 years.
Most lenders won't let things go that far. They'll foreclose before the tax deeds are sold.
The City did a very good job with the environmental. They have a grant program that will pay for Phase I and II environmental testing in certain parts of town. When contamination from old gas tanks turned up, they helped get the property enrolled in a state cleanup program - the cleanup should be done within a year.
The project originally had the Bono's, the brewery and a theatre. Over the last year, the Bono's dropped out, and theatre moved to the old Burro Bar space. That's the way commercial real estate projects work. The initial bank dropped out due to fears about the environmental issues, and then another bank. The third bank will hopefully be the charm.
If the City re-issued the RFP every time something changed, it would be years and years before anything happened.
"The third bank will hopefully be the charm."
Pretty much sums it up.
I presented the City with a cash offer of $150,000 couple of years back, presented it to a City Councilman and a representative of the Real estate division. I was representing an established restaurateur, and we met at one of his restaurants.
Just sayin.............
The RFP process is crap. It takes the concept of free markets and highest best offer out of the equation and lets someone at the City make a decision based on what they think is best. The City owns MILLIONS of dollars of real estate (probably hundreds of millions), cannot afford to maintain it ( by that I mean cut the grass on a regular basis or perform perfunctory maintenance) and has no plans for 99% of it. It's just sitting there.
Offer it up for sale for God's sake and return it to the market place. Or give it to the Weavers. They have the money and passion to do something with it. The City has neither.
Do you know how many times I drove past Ninth and Main in the past several years to see a big yellow COJ card taped to the window, notifying the owner that the grass needed trimming or the broken window needed repair? More than I can remember.
Done venting. Have a nice day.
Quote from: MusicMan on July 01, 2017, 04:34:47 PM
The RFP process is crap. It takes the concept of free markets and highest best offer out of the equation and lets someone at the City make a decision based on what they think is best.
Actually the RFP process allows scorers at the City ( always more than 1 person) to compare proposals based on preset requirements. More often than not, it is a very fair way to select a winner.
Quote from: MusicMan on July 01, 2017, 04:34:47 PM
"The third bank will hopefully be the charm."
Pretty much sums it up.
I presented the City with a cash offer of $150,000 couple of years back, presented it to a City Councilman and a representative of the Real estate division. I was representing an established restaurateur, and we met at one of his restaurants.
Just sayin.............
The RFP process is crap. It takes the concept of free markets and highest best offer out of the equation and lets someone at the City make a decision based on what they think is best. The City owns MILLIONS of dollars of real estate (probably hundreds of millions), cannot afford to maintain it ( by that I mean cut the grass on a regular basis or perform perfunctory maintenance) and has no plans for 99% of it. It's just sitting there.
Offer it up for sale for God's sake and return it to the market place. Or give it to the Weavers. They have the money and passion to do something with it. The City has neither.
Do you know how many times I drove past Ninth and Main in the past several years to see a big yellow COJ card taped to the window, notifying the owner that the grass needed trimming or the broken window needed repair? More than I can remember.
Done venting. Have a nice day.
+1
According to the article (sited by Bill Hoff) dated June 29 2017 a contract was signed for this building. The article further states that "Adeeb will be pouring $600,000 into renovating the property once the contract is closed in six weeks and hopes to be open by March 2018."
I can state for the record that NO WORK has been done and the building appears largely as it has for the past several years. Empty, vacant and miles away from being returned o the functioning fabric of Springfield.
If the COJ had simply offered it for sale a Broker most likely would have brought a buyer with CASH and the place would probably be ready by now, if not completed and up and running. Instead it sits.
Bill Hoff, any updates on why nothing has been done?
"If the City re-issued the RFP every time something changed, it would be years and years before anything happened."
Well it's years anyway. Just check with Peter Rummell on that.
P.P.S. If you check with the property appraiser website there is no evidence that any contract was signed or recorded. It still shows COJ as owner......
Financing (through LISC, which is financing most of Main Street now) is in place, and construction should start soon.
Traditional bank lending and/or institutional money is hard to obtain on properties like these. Lost in the financial meltdown, bank consolidations and sweeping (and poorly conceived) regulations like Dodd-Frank... was the erosion of community banks, that used to take on loans like these.
Big thumbs up to the Adeeb family for staying committed to this property over the last couple of years.
The world is often more complex than just going on a message board complaining about things :)
Describing reality is not complaining Field. I have presented offers on this property for way more money than this Buyer is paying. I would have bought it myself if a serious opportunity had presented itself. Jax has several excellent restauratuers who may have paid fair market value for it if it had been listed by a traditional broker and market forces been put in play. Sitting empty for 8-9 years didn't do anyone any good.
I'm curious what Crispy paid for his building, and whether he would have bought this if given a chance.
It's on COJ, $109,000 is what Crispy paid. What are these guys paying?
All of this aside, I am happy the place will in the not too distant future be brought back to life. I spent plenty of dollar$ at Henrietta's...
RFPs have to issued for public properties. Dealing with government is a totally different game compared to how things in the private sector works.
I know.
But it is not the best way to dispose of properties IMO. It works in some instances but not in others (I see you Peter Rummell).
The idea that RFP works for every prop the City owns is quite simply, wrong.
The COJ owns so many properties such as vacant lots and abandoned homes/commercial structures that I don't see a way out for them. The fate of those properties is purgatory.
New Idea!! The City creates it's own Real Estate Brokerage and starts listing all the properties it has For Sale, with the goal of disposing of 2000 properties in 5 years. Start with the least valued props and work your way up. I am pretty certain people would be shocked at how many properties the City owns.
In fact, wasn't a compilation done a few years ago? What happened to the study?
The City doesn't work like that.. and if it tried to, it would do it very poorly. What you would be left with, is a system that rewards politically-connected individuals that would ultimately cost the City money- and not result in a net benefit. I'd keep your eyes out for a soon-to-be-published article that details how a certain COJ entity is undercutting private sector investment by picking and choosing winners/losers. As frustrating as the current process is, the fact is that when the City does try something like this... it hasn't worked out very well.
Well I want to disagree.
There are more than enough circumstances where the RFP has failed miserably to seek a different way to dispose of many of these properties.
The COJ owns maybe thousands of props valued at less than $100,000. How are they supposed to dispose of them? An RFP for every vacant lot? Every vacant home, or crumbling commercial building? Where the COJ wants $150,000 but the highest bidder is $15,000?
If we continue on the current path most of these properties will literally disappear into the mist, like Brigadoon...........
I kind of agree with MusicMan here...
The skills involved in responding to a City RFP are not the same as those involved in operating a successful restaurant, or building an infill house or apartment buildng, etc.
The RFP process can also make it a lot harder to get financing.
Here's a couple of things I think could help:
1. Real advertising (i.e. on MLS, Loopnet, and a sign on the property). Send out press releases for high interest properties.
2. Offer a reasonable amount of time to close (e.g. 4 months). Allow buyers to extend by paying an additional fee.
3. Accept bids with just a price.
4. Rely on the zoning code to ensure that no undesirable uses are put in. If the City doesn't like the uses currently allowed, change the zoning before putting the property on the market.
5. Don't put a bunch of conditions on the property after the sale - lenders hate them.
Work has begun.
And a (temporary) Strings Sports Brewery sign is hanging.
Grand opening is June 24th, 11am-11pm.
Looks like a great space and menu, unique among local craft breweries. Should be one of the best places to watch a game in Jax.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 15, 2018, 08:42:31 AM
I know.
But it is not the best way to dispose of properties IMO. It works in some instances but not in others (I see you Peter Rummell).
The idea that RFP works for every prop the City owns is quite simply, wrong.
The COJ owns so many properties such as vacant lots and abandoned homes/commercial structures that I don't see a way out for them. The fate of those properties is purgatory.
New Idea!! The City creates it's own Real Estate Brokerage and starts listing all the properties it has For Sale, with the goal of disposing of 2000 properties in 5 years. Start with the least valued props and work your way up. I am pretty certain people would be shocked at how many properties the City owns.
In fact, wasn't a compilation done a few years ago? What happened to the study?
I would simply issue an RFP for any property that the city owns. Publish a complete inventory, as you said, one has already been done. Allow any investor to submit a proposal for any property. The market will tell you what is desired most. Have a board of professionals evaluate each submissions and score them. Any proposal that scores above a certain number has to be accepted or rejected by a appropriate city council committee for submission to the full council. Properties that get at multiple proposals that score high enough get a separate RPF, but the initial bidders get a bonus point in the evaluation.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 15, 2018, 09:32:15 PM
The COJ owns maybe thousands of props valued at less than $100,000. How are they supposed to dispose of them? An RFP for every vacant lot? Every vacant home, or crumbling commercial building? Where the COJ wants $150,000 but the highest bidder is $15,000?
When JEA cuts its annual payment to the city, they will have to get pretty creative with fundraising, so dispositions would be a good revenue stream for them. They obviously won't have the same process for a $100k quarter acre lot as the Shipyards. I imagine it will be like the tax certificate sales. Publish a list of maybe 2 dozen properties at a time and the date of the auction well in advance and allow potential purchasers to submit a bid including proof of financing and then a committee will review and discuss for a few minutes and pick a winner. Rinse and repeat once a month or so. As property values increase, submission criteria and the review process will also increase.
Strings Sports Bar officially opened today. It's flat out amazing! A winner, and serious addition to the neighborhood.
Congratulations to the owners!!
Quote from: lowlyplanner on March 19, 2018, 10:35:58 AM
I kind of agree with MusicMan here...
The skills involved in responding to a City RFP are not the same as those involved in operating a successful restaurant, or building an infill house or apartment buildng, etc.
The RFP process can also make it a lot harder to get financing.
Here's a couple of things I think could help:
1. Real advertising (i.e. on MLS, Loopnet, and a sign on the property). Send out press releases for high interest properties.
For properties worth less than $100,000, why does the city just not put them on the market without a RFP? They could bring so many vacant lots, abandoned homes etc back onto the property tax roll. This is not complicated. Why do city council member not have common sense?
Quote from: MusicMan on June 22, 2019, 06:40:53 PM
Strings Sports Bar officially opened today. It's flat out amazing! A winner, and serious addition to the neighborhood.
Congratulations to the owners!!
Yea, it's pretty bad ass. And legit food menu. Soft opening this weekend, grand opening is this Monday, 6/24.