How to fit a gas station into Brooklyn
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Urban-Gas-Station-Examples/i-JQL5xmZ/0/L/Gate%20Brooklyn-L.jpg)
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2016-mar-how-to-fit-a-gas-station-into-brooklyn
Any way to submit these suggestions to DDRB?
Well, the DDRB approved one of them on the list, so they know what a good one looks like.
This one is just a matter of whether or not they care. The proposed plan is clearly awful. On the heels of 200 Riverside's excellent site plan, this shows the differences in good vs bad design.
There was a sign up briefly on the Chelsea cul-de-sac
proposing permanent closure to that public right away. Which I'm
Sure means the city is once again is considering giving public land
to private industry. While little automotive traffic uses that area, it is an extremely high
pedestrian and bicycling right of way as it connects with Myrtle for a
quick trip into downtown with no steep grades to negotiate.
If a company has the opportunity to do it quick and cheap, and use existing plans, this is what they propose. It is never the best plan that is presented first. Looks like many better options are out there. It also seems like those that do the approving, have no idea what a good design is in the first place. Rather than ask for variances, there should be sound design requirements in place to begin with. This proposal should be laughed out.
Excellent work, Ennis!! This needs to be broadcast over the airwaves so that everyone knows that the "hometown heroes" are trying to put one over on the city. Brooklyn is a small neighborhood bound by the river and major highways. Each block is important in establishing an urban environment. If 7-Eleven and Daily's can incorporate urban design principles into their site plans, Gate can too. They should be setting the example for the other chains to follow, not cutting corners to save a buck.
Quote from: mbwright on March 03, 2016, 08:33:49 AM
If a company has the opportunity to do it quick and cheap, and use existing plans, this is what they propose. It is never the best plan that is presented first. Looks like many better options are out there. It also seems like those that do the approving, have no idea what a good design is in the first place. Rather than ask for variances, there should be sound design requirements in place to begin with. This proposal should be laughed out.
Exactly. Gate already has the prototype designed and have built it several times, they are testing the waters with the concept that is most efficient for them not the neighborhood. If they can get away with it here they will do it, if not I'm guessing they will compromise. The area needs a gas station so I'm sure they would be willing to spend some extra design $$ to get the space if they are forced to. Someone needs to convince them that they need a more urban prototype and this is a good place to get that more urban design oriented prototype on the files. I'm not aware of another one they have with an urban design.
Would love to see something like Parker's Gas Station and Market in Savannah, GA in this spot: https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x88fb9e6f52eef843:0x7ee4fa96231074dc!2m5!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i100!3m1!7e1!4shttp://www.csnews.com/node/68298?nopaging%3D1!5s+-+Google+Search
Great article, Lake. It would be good to have an easy link to contact the DDRB.
Oh for Pete's sake!!! Come on HOMETOWN company. You can give your HOMETOWN better than this! Brooklyn deserves it. They shouldn't never presented this plan - just out of civic pride alone. SO disappointing, Gate!
Quote from: Seanithan on March 03, 2016, 10:02:48 AM
Would love to see something like Parker's Gas Station and Market in Savannah, GA in this spot: https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x88fb9e6f52eef843:0x7ee4fa96231074dc!2m5!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i100!3m1!7e1!4shttp://www.csnews.com/node/68298?nopaging%3D1!5s+-+Google+Search
Gate wants 24 pumps on the Brooklyn site. How many pumps in your Parker example? The godforsaken highway they put through Brooklyn a few years ago is what is driving this ginormous Gate station.
I'm hoping those of you posting on this board find a way to reach out to Gate and ask them to do lots better. And show up at DDRB to weigh in there. It is going to take a lot more than a post on a blog.
Parker's only has 3 fuel positions.
I'm a big fan of the plans. Will be happy to have an alternative to the dumpy Shell in Five Points.
Quote from: Kay on March 03, 2016, 09:31:58 PM
I'm hoping those of you posting on this board find a way to reach out to Gate and ask them to do lots better. And show up at DDRB to weigh in there. It is going to take a lot more than a post on a blog.
He doesn't post as often anymore, but a forum member does or used to work for Gate in a different division (i think materials or capital). Maybe he can get this in the hands of the design folks.
What's the contact info for the DDRB? This "post on a blog" will be useful for showing examples of the kind of thing the city should be expecting in the urban core.
http://ccmayorboards.coj.net/boarddetail.asp?board=87&type=M
List is out of date, Steve Arrington retired from JTA a couple years ago, and Calvin Burney is no longer the Planning Director.
Maybe the staff contact is still good.
The City should do a better job keeping their websites current.
I have next week's agenda packet. Here's the list of board members:
Rafael Caldera, Chairman
Frederick Jones, Vice-Chair
Joseph P Loretta, Secretary
Carol Worsham, Board Member
Roland Udenze, Board Member
Craig Davisson, Board Member
Greg Bruce, Board Member, Resigned
Wiatt Bowers, Board Member
I'll post the Gate site plan in a few minutes.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Gate-Brooklyn/i-r9RrfG6/0/X2/20160310_DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_79-X2.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Gate-Brooklyn/i-dzhPn7r/0/X2/20160310_DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_86-X2.jpg)
Screw Gate, and its GOB owner! Let's put a Wawa gas station in instead.
Doesn't get much worse than that.
Those flowers are just lipstick on a pig. Hopefully that Wiatt Bowers guy talks some sense into everyone.
The site is basically a square. If you flip it, you end up with a similar layout, except the store would be along Park and the gas canopy would face I-95. If you rotated the same plan to make the canopy face Forest, you'd end up with a site plan that is somewhat identical to the Daily's in San Marco. Their outdoor dining area would be along Park, as opposed to being in the middle of the site. None of this probably happens, but it's doable without them having to modify the design of their store, gas canopy and car wash buildings.
If the store is only going to have one entrance/exit, for security reasons, and it will be facing the pumps, why is it better for pedestrians and cyclists to have the back of the store along Park Street with no entrance on that side?
I love how they always place a bunch pedestrians enjoying their pleasant walk around the local gate gas station in the rendering. End of the day, the scene is not going to look like this at all.
Quote from: UNFurbanist on March 07, 2016, 05:15:15 PM
I love how they always place a bunch pedestrians enjoying their pleasant walk around the local gate gas station in the rendering. End of the day, the scene is not going to look like this at all.
That always bothers me as well. I take it as a sign that they know what people want, they are just incapable of actually building it.
Putting the store up front on the street would be such an easy fix. So sad. :-[
Consider the source, GATE and the PEYTON family. In FY 2008, the company ranked #338 on the Forbes list of America's Largest Private Companies. These were the same people that brought us 'Little Johnny Peyton,' a mayor that not only didn't want to hear another point of view, he actively worked to shut it down. His appearance at a charrette about the Children's Space in Metropolitan Park was poison. What should have been a well attended community planning session to redesign the space started with 'A word from the Mayor...'
Yeah, I couldn't believe the stunt Lil' Johnny pulled at the charette for Kids Campus. After the room was split into 8-10 work groups the mayor stood up in front and told us, (close paraphrase) "thanks for coming to the charette...this is how the city gets input from the community on how to best plan for our future. We all know the stadium area gets completely jammed when the Jaguars or UF are playing and we desperately need "flex space". We'd love to see a clear area where families can have picnics, fly kites, and chase butterflies. So in your design's remember we need the space..." Then like a bunch of lemmings the groups dutifully fell into line and one by one swept the boards clean.
When the plans were all turned in it was pretty obvious the Children had been tossed under the bus.
On the subject of the Skyway, JTA, Commuter Rail, etc. Peyton stonewalled MJ's attempt at dialog, he simply didn't want to hear it. So any wonder they have taken this stance over the citizens of the City? In Jacksonville there are only two rules regarding Gate or the Peyton families projects;
Rule One - 'Peyton Wins'
Rule Two - 'If you have questions, see rule one'
Get ready for it Brooklyn, the great and powerful hath spoken.
I don't know if this is the place to announce this or not but I am interested in starting a resident-based community activist group to try and influence development in Brooklyn. I have almost zero experience in this type of activity but I know if someone doesn't do something we are going to end up with more of the same - and that isn't good enough. If anyone would like to get involved and help I would like to meet with them on the steps of Unity Plaza on April 23rd at 2PM. If just 2 or 3 people showed up it would be a start.
Quote from: Kerry on April 14, 2016, 10:13:25 PM
I don't know if this is the place to announce this or not but I am interested in starting a resident-based community activist group to try and influence development in Brooklyn. I have almost zero experience in this type of activity but I know if someone doesn't do something we are going to end up with more of the same - and that isn't good enough. If anyone would like to get involved and help I would like to meet with them on the steps of Unity Plaza on April 23rd at 2PM. If just 2 or 3 people showed up it would be a start.
Start a new thread. People may not see it buried back here.
Quote from: Kerry on April 14, 2016, 10:13:25 PM
I don't know if this is the place to announce this or not but I am interested in starting a resident-based community activist group to try and influence development in Brooklyn. I have almost zero experience in this type of activity but I know if someone doesn't do something we are going to end up with more of the same - and that isn't good enough. If anyone would like to get involved and help I would like to meet with them on the steps of Unity Plaza on April 23rd at 2PM. If just 2 or 3 people showed up it would be a start.
This is already in the works. Email me directly.
Quote from: Kay on April 15, 2016, 10:44:36 AM
Quote from: Kerry on April 14, 2016, 10:13:25 PM
I don't know if this is the place to announce this or not but I am interested in starting a resident-based community activist group to try and influence development in Brooklyn. I have almost zero experience in this type of activity but I know if someone doesn't do something we are going to end up with more of the same - and that isn't good enough. If anyone would like to get involved and help I would like to meet with them on the steps of Unity Plaza on April 23rd at 2PM. If just 2 or 3 people showed up it would be a start.
This is already in the works. Email me directly.
Thanks Kay - I sent you a private message with my contact information.
QuoteProspective Brooklyn Gate station facing challenge
The proposed Gate Petroleum Station in Jacksonville's Brooklyn neighborhood is facing a challenge.
The Downtown Investment Authority is being asked to review the Downtown Development Review Board's ruling on the proposed station.
Gate proposed buying the two acre property on Park Street in late 2015, and the plans for the development were approved by the DDRB in March. The decision has since been appealed, meaning the DIA will be required to rule on the DDRB's decision at a public hearing.
It is unclear who filed the appeal, but in order to file an appeal against the decision, the person has to be an "effective party," or someone who owns a business or property in the area. An "effective party" can also be someone who presented at the original meeting.
The prospective date for the hearing is June 9, though that is pending the availability of some DIA members.
Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2016/05/prospective-brooklyn-gate-station-facing-challenge.html
There's already FOUR petrol stations in a 2 mile radius of Brooklyn. What's the problem here? This should've been shot down months ago...
Curious who filed, but I certainly welcome it. It's a terrible design.
Who makes the decisions on the DIA? Is there any chance in hell the decision gets repealed.
QuoteI don't know if this is the place to announce this or not but I am interested in starting a resident-based community activist group to try and influence development in Brooklyn. I have almost zero experience in this type of activity but I know if someone doesn't do something we are going to end up with more of the same - and that isn't good enough. If anyone would like to get involved and help I would like to meet with them on the steps of Unity Plaza on April 23rd at 2PM. If just 2 or 3 people showed up it would be a start.
Prepare to get steamrolled....just ask Atlantic Beach Residents how that worked....
This is the link to the DIA page that lists the board members who will make the decision on the Gate appeal. If anyone is interested in helping with this appeal, please send me a message.
http://dia.coj.net/about
how do they not know who filed the appeal? would it not be public record?
On this note, would it be possible to get a Brooklyn child page under the Urban Neighborhoods section so issues specific to Brooklyn don't get lost in other threads?
Quote from: BenderRodriguez on May 19, 2016, 02:51:39 PM
There's already FOUR petrol stations in a 2 mile radius of Brooklyn. What's the problem here? This should've been shot down months ago...
this crazy talk. you folks gonna sit here and pretend there's not a massive interstate next door that empties traffic into an intersection with no petrol? if it was wawa ya'll be done wettin yor britches.
I am not sure the interstate is going to generate a lot of traffic. Most people driving cross country don't stop in urban downtowns for gas, and besides, where is FDOT going to put those blue interstate signs directing drivers to the gas station?
Quote from: Kerry on May 31, 2016, 05:33:28 PM
I am not sure the interstate is going to generate a lot of traffic. Most people driving cross country don't stop in urban downtowns for gas
gonna assume you gonna provide research to back up yor crazy?
This will immediately be the best facility for several miles, so I think it will get plenty of traffic from commuters, Fresh Market shoppers etc. The roads in this area are significant thoroughfares during rush hour.
Not a fan of the site plan at all, but I think the location will be successful.
^I don't see this place hurting for business. There's enough people that get on an off the interchange anyway, even if people don't stop on their way through town.
Putting that aside, when opposing a site plan or use of a property, it's best to stay away from opinions on how successful the business will or won't be anyway. That argument is never going to be successful, and nothing legally stops them from opening a store. I could open a Louis Vuitton in Palatka - it would likely be a stupid idea, but I should have the right to legally as long as I meet zoning requirements.
In this case, Gate's site plan doesn't meet the law.
^ I agree, and if done the right way this project will have a very positive impact on the area. A nice convenience store/filling station/car wash is an amenity that the 5 Points/Brooklyn area has been lacking.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the gas station is a bad business decision. All the objections seem to come from the site plan and it's lack of compliance with current zoning standard - hence the 7 variances that were granted. The roads in this area are about to be re-done to make them bicycle and pedestrian friendly. The RFP has already been issued and submission are due June 16. Clearly the site plan approved already is not going to be consistent with what come out of the RFP process. Also, Park is going to become the primary path from 5-Points to the new transit center near the convention center, and maybe even a Brightline rail station. Gate has an opportunity here to do something really special that will set them apart from all other gasoline retailers in NE Florida (and maybe even become a national example of what can be done in urban environments) - I hope they take advantage of it.
Not sure if anyone saw this. The proposed Nocatee location at least looks like they tried to comply with some design requirements. If a business feels like they have no way around zoning regulations or design requirements, they will comply. Gate just knows that the DDRB and COJ are toothless, so they'll try to get away with anything.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on June 02, 2016, 11:33:03 AM
Not sure if anyone saw this. The proposed Nocatee location at least looks like they tried to comply with some design requirements. If a business feels like they have no way around zoning regulations or design requirements, they will comply. Gate just knows that the DDRB and COJ are toothless, so they'll try to get away with anything.
Check out the Seven-11's near downtown Orlando at Colonial/Magnolia and Princeton/N Orange. They are pretty cool.
Is there still a meeting set for June 9th?
Those are the ones with the faux stucco walls. They look interesting driving by but they suck from a pedestrian/bike standpoint. On foot, you still have to walk through lots of concrete/parking, etc. to get to the front door from the public sidewalk.
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g130/bzorch/orlando_gas_station1.jpg)
The new one at Colonial/Fern Creek doesn't include the faux wall but is better for walkability because the building is forced to front the street and include an entrance directly off the sidewalk.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4754184343_4Wg6mw3-L.jpg)
Now, combining the on-street storefront with a faux wall/landscaping would probably be the best of both worlds.
While the two 7-11 do have the buildings set back in typical gas station fashion, there is a brick sidewalk inside that leads from the pedestrian portals along the sidewalk to the front door.
Quote from: JaxAvondale on June 07, 2016, 10:36:13 AM
Is there still a meeting set for June 9th?
The appeal hearing has been tentatively rescheduled to June 29, 2016 at 1 p.m. It appears they are having a problem getting a quorum of DIA board members to attend. A number of dates have been rejected due to no quorum.
Quote from: Kerry on June 07, 2016, 06:55:06 PM
While the two 7-11 do have the buildings set back in typical gas station fashion, there is a brick sidewalk inside that leads from the pedestrian portals along the sidewalk to the front door.
Yeah, I've gassed up at the one off Colonial several times over the years. However, the one near I-4 and Florida Hospital is fairly new. Other than pavement material, a brick sidewalk is no different from the crosswalk Gate has shown in their site plans. Actually, Gate's location of their sidewalk is better than the Colonial one, which leads directly into a parking space before reaching the front door.
Colonial faux wall pedestrian connection
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Misc2/i-mPWRJnh/0/XL/7-eleven%20colonial-XL.jpg)
Princeton faux wall pedestrian connection
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Misc2/i-sqsnBck/0/XL/7-eleven%20princeton-XL.jpg)
Other than the faux wall, those 7-11 sites are just typical suburban gas stations in areas of urban Orlando that either were, or should be walkable. Better off, saving the money on the faux wall and sticking the building on the street, like this station in Columbus, OH.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4754184466_9ZDj4Lj-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4754184447_C9nM9cT-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4754184480_zfVD9kx-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4754184524_MR8kxCp-L.jpg)
I agree with Columbus comment. Build that and be done with it.
Quote from: Kerry on June 08, 2016, 01:07:36 PM
I agree with Columbus comment. Build that and be done with it.
I believe Gate wouldn't care for this. That's just the way it is.
Quote from: Kay on June 08, 2016, 07:28:31 AM
Quote from: JaxAvondale on June 07, 2016, 10:36:13 AM
Is there still a meeting set for June 9th?
The appeal hearing has been tentatively rescheduled to June 29, 2016 at 1 p.m. It appears they are having a problem getting a quorum of DIA board members to attend. A number of dates have been rejected due to no quorum.
Thanks, Kay!
Quote from: The_Choose_1 on June 08, 2016, 07:30:54 PM
Quote from: Kerry on June 08, 2016, 01:07:36 PM
I agree with Columbus comment. Build that and be done with it.
I believe Gate wouldn't care for this. That's just the way it is.
Obviously. However, if downtown Jax is to become this vibrant pedestrian scale place everyone claims they want it to be, then the main priority should not be what Gate wants. Every project, regardless of what it is, should have to work within the general design frame intended to achieve the community's overall vision. Out of all things considered, finding a way to get a convenience store up to the sidewalk shouldn't be as difficult as getting a man to the moon.
Quote from: JaxAvondale on June 08, 2016, 08:12:40 PM
Quote from: Kay on June 08, 2016, 07:28:31 AM
Quote from: JaxAvondale on June 07, 2016, 10:36:13 AM
Is there still a meeting set for June 9th?
The appeal hearing has been tentatively rescheduled to June 29, 2016 at 1 p.m. It appears they are having a problem getting a quorum of DIA board members to attend. A number of dates have been rejected due to no quorum.
Thanks, Kay!
Just now heard the hearing has been moved up to June 23, 2016. Will confirm with time.
Quote from: The_Choose_1 on June 08, 2016, 07:30:54 PM
Quote from: Kerry on June 08, 2016, 01:07:36 PM
I agree with Columbus comment. Build that and be done with it.
I believe Gate wouldn't care for this. That's just the way it is.
I am not as sympathetic to corporations as it appears most people are. I am in the "humans first" camp. The City and public have spent 15 years developing a plan for Brooklyn (and a new RFP is due next week). Are we going to do this walkable urbanism thing or not. If we aren't then we should just thank everyone for their time and money and move on, but if we are, then this where it manifest itself. If Gate can't do it maybe Wawa can - they are opening 25 new locations in Jax.
QuoteThe City and public have spent 15 years developing a plan for Brooklyn (and a new RFP is due next week). Are we going to do this walkable urbanism thing or not. If we aren't then we should just thank everyone for their time and money and move on
So true. So true. Some would say its time to shit or get off the pot....
Quote from: thelakelander on March 04, 2016, 02:26:16 PM
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Gate-Brooklyn/i-r9RrfG6/0/X2/20160310_DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_79-X2.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Gate-Brooklyn/i-dzhPn7r/0/X2/20160310_DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_86-X2.jpg)
I see nothing wrong with this plan. But I'm surprised there isn't a way to get to this Gate store from Forest St. I could see a one way street so travelers could go right to the Gate store. Getting out of this area will be tricky during peck traffic. A gas station is needed in this area.
A right-in, right-out on Forest would help circulation and open up more opportunities for better site design. Other than FDOT saying no (which can be overcome), I don't know why there isn't one.
As far as problems go, the store being set back from the sidewalk, like the station and site is in the Southside or Orange Park is the issue, not the use.
This is a problem because the design guidelines and community vision for this area of the city is to be pedestrian scale and walkable. Anything not following those guidelines does damage this overall community goal actually happening. Now if the goal and vision of the area has changed, then there's nothing wrong with the design.
I think this layout really sets a poor precedent. Also, if I recall correctly the NAI Hallmark hotel plan adjacent to 220 featured a large street-front surface lot. It will only take a few big parking lots and an interstate exit style gas station to make this area feel like any other non-core commercial corridor.
^Basically. In reality, the deviations allowed in recent projects are already making the area feel more like I-295/East Baymeadows than an authentic pedestrian scale urban core neighborhood. No surprise the proposed Gate plan is basically the same as the new one at East Baymeadows and RG Skinner.
Speaking of East Baymeadows...here's a few shots of recent projects. For the most part, these would fit in like a glove with some of Brooklyn's recent developments.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4689430406_9gJqJXN-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4163391822_8VjZ4FT-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4163392060_3ZtDzd8-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Development/Southside-Construction02-2014/i-f8FB4CH/0/L/P1690012-L.jpg)
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Development/Southside-Construction02-2014/i-GT74z3F/0/L/P1690023-L.jpg)
The major difference is Brooklyn is near downtown, Riverside and the river, while East Baymeadows is not too far from SJTC, UNF and the future IKEA. Brooklyn can be much better but the streetscape and design standards will have to be those that embrace walkability.
Appeal hearing officially confirmed for Thursday, June 23, 2016 from 9 a.m. to 10:30 a.m. at City Hall in the Lynwood Roberts room.
^ Thank you Stephen! Great stuff.
Quote from: stephendare on June 21, 2016, 03:26:59 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on June 21, 2016, 03:19:44 PM
^ Thank you Stephen! Great stuff.
Literally my pleasure. The actual meeting was most vexing.
Outside of Wiatt Bowers, I have to say that I was left less than impressed with the commitment to the actual mission of the board by its members.
Literally, the choice was clear:
The design principles that they are specifically charged with enforcing
vs
Gate's feeling of inconvenience in where they would have to park their delivery trucks.
It was grotesque.
It is so clear cut and such an easy change for them to really enhance that corner as you suggest. I appreciate you trying to keep them honest on this one!
Just to confirm what I think I am reading; there are standardized guidelines already in place for how development in Brooklyn is supposed to progress and those guidelines are "law" such that everyone before and everyone after Gate has to follow them?
You are not asking Gate to "break new ground because that is how it should be"?
While I understand the issue, I also look at the existing plaza layout and it is not "urban walk-able" is it?
I think it would be a future benefit if the station would be made more walk-able but if Gate is being asked to do what no one else has been required to do then it will be a tough road to go down.
Quote from: strider on June 21, 2016, 05:06:41 PM
Just to confirm what I think I am reading; there are standardized guidelines already in place for how development in Brooklyn is supposed to progress and those guidelines are "law" such that everyone before and everyone after Gate has to follow them?
You are not asking Gate to "break new ground because that is how it should be"?
While I understand the issue, I also look at the existing plaza layout and it is not "urban walk-able" is it?
I think it would be a future benefit if the station would be made more walk-able but if Gate is being asked to do what no one else has been required to do then it will be a tough road to go down.
The strip mall got a setback deviation. Most proposed projects ask for them. Brooklyn Riverside only turned out decent because the developer wanted something better than the DDRB had allowed for the previous suburban developer for that site. Everyone complains about a lack of money when it comes to downtown vibrancy. In reality, our lack of will to maintain/emforce the public policies needed to stimulate a pedestrian scale downtown is the core reason for its struggles.
Wish me luck. Feeling undermanned and overmatched. Will give it my best. A good turnout at the hearing will be helpful.
Unable to attend.
Please tell us what happened?
Unfortunate, but not surprising. We have decades of precedent of letting people do whatever they want, even if it is against the established design guidelines. Gate just did what several others have in prior months, years and decades.
Unfortunately, the reality of Jax's situation can be boiled down to this:
If you can't get a gas station design right, what does that mean for establishing a walkable Brooklyn or downtown in the future? Placing my heart aside, my logical side would say you can't blame Jax's suburbanites for not wanting their tax dollars wasted in downtown. Hundreds of millions spent over the last five decades of revitalization and today's environment is what you've gotten as a result. Thus, when a Landing redevelopment plan or Shipyards proposal (both of which call for huge public subsidies) goes up in smoke, I'm one of the urban advocates who still sleeps well at night.
I'll stand by my statement in another thread that downtown's vibrancy (or lack of it) is less about the financial and more about getting public policy right and sticking to it.
Kudos to those that fought the good fight. Can't say I am surprised at the result. Jacksonville has a vague idea of what it wants, but it has no idea of how to achieve it, and absolutely no willpower to do what is necessary, even if it did.
Someone seriously should have kept the proceedings more fair. The bottom line is that if Gate can't adhere to the guidelines, or at least the vast majority of them, then they shouldn't be allowed to build. Period. They knew the rules when they bought the property, if they couldn't do what they wanted within them, they should have made other plans.
^Everyone knows the rules. However, there's strong precedence of getting deviations approved for things you don't want to do. Until we figure out what we want to be and are willing to make sure the policies intended to achieve those long term goals are followed, the same outcome will continue for the foreseeable future.
Well this sucks but par for the course. This was a huge opportunity missed for not only Brooklyn and the City, but Gate as well.
And I totally agree with above comment that Jax has an idea of what it wants, but no idea how to actually do it.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2016, 01:50:05 PM
^Everyone knows the rules. However, there's strong precedence of getting deviations approved for things you don't want to do. Until we figure out what we want to be and are willing to make sure the policies intended to achieve those long term goals are followed, the same outcome will continue for the foreseeable future.
It seems the only purpose for the rules is to know which variance to apply for.
It sucks, but not surprising. What we need, is to start working on the developers, before they devote a lot of time and energy on plans they won't want to change, and that DDRB won't stand up to. And to work with the city on coming up with an overall plan for Brooklyn and Downtown, like the one drawn up years ago (http://groundworkjacksonville.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/1-jacksonville-master-plansmall-copy.pdf) that was never followed.
Currently, DDRB has made it clear it's just going to give in to whatever the developer wants. Developers have no incentive to do better.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 23, 2016, 02:05:59 PM
It sucks, but not surprising. What we need, is to start working on the developers, before they devote a lot of time and energy on plans they won't want to change, and that DDRB won't stand up to. And to work with the city on coming up with an overall plan for Brooklyn and Downtown, like the one drawn up years ago (http://groundworkjacksonville.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/1-jacksonville-master-plansmall-copy.pdf) that was never followed.
Currently, DDRB has made it clear it's just going to give in to whatever the developer wants. Developers have no incentive to do better.
Agreed and that is already in the works. Because this project was already in process it monopolized a lot of our initial time and effort, but now we can focus on being proactive and not reactive. We will also perform an after-action review of what went right/wrong, where effort might have been better spent, and how we can be more organized and focused going forward.
LOL....only in Jacksonville....
QuoteSteve Diebenow, the attorney representing Gate at the hearing, said Gate went through the right process, including considering 21 alternative plans, and found that the proposed site plan was the only one that would work. If it can't build the station the way it wants, he said, Gate won't build the station.
QuoteDIA Chairman Bailey said the submitted site plan proposal from Ehas was irrelevant – and that what Gate was doing was unique and tailored to the area it's moving into.
"It's such a change from what Gate usually does," Bailey said before the board voted. "The design is unique. I'm sure it didn't happen very easily, but I'm glad that it
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Gate-Brooklyn/i-r9RrfG6/0/L/20160310_DDRB%20Agenda%20Packet_Page_79-L.jpg)
The unique plan specifically tailored to the area its moving into.... :-\Full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/06/23/planned-gate-petroleum-station-survives-appeal.html
Decision sucks and sets a bad precedent for the Brooklyn neighborhood. I agree with the comments about the need to clean house on DDRB and DIA. They aren't helping and some appear to just be idiots and/or bought and paid for.
Surprised by Jim Bailey. Also mildly surprised by Oliver Barakat in a good way.
Quote from: brainstormer on June 23, 2016, 05:40:20 PM
Decision sucks and sets a bad precedent for the Brooklyn neighborhood. I agree with the comments about the need to clean house on DDRB and DIA. They aren't helping and some appear to just be idiots and/or bought and paid for.
So many of the people elected to run this city seem to be quite the collection of invertebrates.
"If Gate can't build what they want, then they won't build there." Great. I'm sure there's plenty of land to develop whichever iteration of outer-beltway we're on right now. Bad precedent indeed. But this precedent has been set so long ago, I don't think anyone can pinpoint when, but great ideas and procedures that would benefit the collective city have always, ALWAYS, been sidelined in favor of allowing the deep pockets to do what they want in order to keep favor.
Over-Under - 8 years before there's a full blown strip-mall, big-box area just West of 95 on Forest St. Probably anchored by a Wal-Mart.
^Well it won't be the first. Brooklyn Station beat it by a few years. It ended up a little better than your average strip mall because the outparcels were built to and interact with the street. Nevertheless, the argument made by Gate was pretty much the same made for that development's site design being accepted the way it is.
A sad but predictable result. I don't personally know what effort DIA or any other City planning staff made to educate Gate about the implications of the design they pushed for. I know in Portland OR - 20 years ago - this same resistance was encountered by the Regional Government when it adopted virtually identical high density, mixed-use, transit oriented development regulations calling for zero lot line commercial buildings oriented to then non-existent foot traffic. I suppose a 20 pump gas station will probably always rely heavily on its auto-delivered customers. Dealing with the operational hassles of managing both street-oriented and parking lot-oriented foot traffic might never be in their best economic interests. But the fact is they failed Jacksonville as a "local" foundational corporation. They, more than many yet to come smaller businesses in Brooklyn, could best afford the risk of pioneering the pedestrian-oriented design features that might take a generation or more (in this town) to stimulate the kind of robust foot traffic that would make the investment pay off.
No, Gate will stymie appropriate build-out of Brooklyn and will then, eventually, parasitically benefit from its location in a dense, thriving urban locale built by the sweat of others. Rather than using their sizable investment as a vote of confidence in Brooklyn's aspirations; rather than using its location as the literal gateway to the Brooklyn district to showcase strong urban design, they have cynically used their good old boy connections to hedge their bet and cut the District's momentum off at the knees. They earnestly offer up reduced signage and "sensitive" building design as evidence of their good intentions. But rather than make their building a standout asset to the District, they offer extensive landscaping to hide its ugly, destructive and physically dangerous isolation from the vitality of the District's urban design ethic. For all that they harped about "safety" of their customers all morning, it doesn't take an engineering degree to realize the store is designed to be an island: any pedestrian must cross a "ring road" surrounding the building like a moat. There is no approach to the building that does not require pedestrians to expose themselves to auto and/or heavy truck traffic movements. And rather than putting the sidewalk along Forest to the interior of the greenery, thus using it as a buffer, they put it immediately adjacent to the high speed, high volume traffic of the gargantuan, overbuilt, six lane monstrosity that is Forest.
Walgreens and CVS bailed on bids to invest in Brooklyn for precisely the same reasons: they are unwilling to develop an appropriate urban design model for their businesses. They insisted on a suburban model and when DIA held firm, they walked. DIA couldn't stomach another failed development bid so they caved. In contrast, Portland Metro withstood two developer financed efforts to eliminate the agency. I can only wonder if a staunch expression of the City's commitment to realize its planning goals might not have convinced Gate to take the plunge. They smelled weakness instead and exploited the opening. Assuming DIA ever gets a true urban renaissance in Brooklyn, the Gate gas station will be a glaring wound in the fabric of that community for decades to come.
When and where did the DIA hold CVS to develop an appropriate urban design in Brooklyn? CVS was going to get that suburban store layout, which essentially fit right in with the rest of the suburban center that was built. They bailed for other reasons.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Development/Riverside-Park-Retail/i-dh4zvdf/0/X2/Brooklyn%20E-X2.jpg)
Brooklyn Station with CVS
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Development/Riverside-Park-Retail/i-TqJ2kx7/0/X2/Brooklyn%20D-X2.jpg)
After CVS bailed, the developer added another outparcel building
This beauty was approved by the DDRB in 2012.
(http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/slideshow_image_sizer.php?img=storyimages/32097.jpg)
It was a revision for the original Lincoln Property proposed a few months earlier:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1728125744_ccKCC6Q-M.jpg)
Lincoln wanted perimeter fencing because of "security" concerns for being in a "pioneering" location. Even with DDRB approval, Lincoln eventually bailed anyway and Pollack Shores stepped in. Pollack thought the DDRB approved Lincoln plan was horrible and flipped in inward out to develop what's there now.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2628320119_LPLd3qn-M.jpg)
Pollack's conceptual proposal
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2628320189_7x2SWdV-M.jpg)
Pollack's conceptual site plan
(http://images.adsttc.com/media/images/56ae/78e0/e58e/cefa/d300/0487/large_jpg/Brooklyn_(5).jpg?1454274746)
Pollack's finished project properly addresses Park and Jackson Streets. This project turned out ok because the developer wanted a better site design, not because the city was going to demand it. Luckily, the developer had experience of doing similar projects in other cities and urban oriented environments. If Lincoln had developed that property, it would have been a larger black hole in Brooklyn's context than Gate's approved plan.
My bad on the CVS thing. The DIA planner voiced his belief that they fought the good fight and lost and I took him at his word. I frankly don't have a good bead on Brooklyn, having fought the City the past three years over Springfield issues. I'm a carpetbagger from the NW and stopped in for this issue as a favor. Familiar and frustrating and ... I gotta go with the under bet on that Walmart. That freeway access is just too ripe and low hanging.
There is absolutely zero chance of the Curry administration appointing anyone to any development review board who is not completely in bed with Developers. And if they do show some backbone, he will fire them.
Diebenow drew a few chuckles around the crowded room when he explained that gas pumps should qualify as public space.
http://jacksonville.com/business/real-estate/2016-06-23/story/gas-station-brooklyn-neighborhood-inching-forward?utm_source=story_rail_recommendations&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=cxense
QuoteDiebenow drew a few chuckles around the crowded room when he explained that gas pumps should qualify as public space.
He is quickly becoming the Paul Harden of his generation. Damn good guy to know if you need something done in the City of Jax!
Quote from: sheclown on June 24, 2016, 05:14:52 PM
Diebenow drew a few chuckles around the crowded room when he explained that gas pumps should qualify as public space.
http://jacksonville.com/business/real-estate/2016-06-23/story/gas-station-brooklyn-neighborhood-inching-forward?utm_source=story_rail_recommendations&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=cxense
In that case maybe they won't mind people playing frisbee or having a picnic between the pumps.
Gate Coming Soon sign went up yesterday.
Is it just me or is Gate moving really slow on this? I was kind of hoping they changed their mind.
Shovels will be in the dirt soon
Gate is open. They did a nice job with the space. Hopefully, Brooklyn will continue to grow in 2018.
Quote from: JaxAvondale on January 05, 2018, 09:20:47 AM
Gate is open. They did a nice job with the space. Hopefully, Brooklyn will continue to grow in 2018.
I agree, I think they incorporated the station well into the surroundings. The Shell in Five Points no longer has a monopoly! lol
All the moaning seems even sillier now.
lol I'm actually smh at what impresses people. If the opening of a gas station is big news, we're further behind and beaten down by the reality of Jax's urban renaissance than even I expected. Even for Memphis ;-).
Back in Manhattan after spending the holidays in Jax, Orlando, and stints in Knoxville, Chattanooga, and Asheville. Jax's downtown is as far behind as you can imagine, make no mistake. Crisis mode.
I haven't seen it in person but based on the pictures in the other thread,it is just a run of the mill convenience store. What specifically are the positives that some on here are impressed by? I am not seeing anything besides a vanilla carbon copy Gate store.
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU123017/i-nhr9bxQ/0/059291e3/L/20171230_121953-L.jpg)
It has a fence. That's about the only significant difference that stands out from every other new Gate being built.
^Don't forget the different color scheme!
I did notice more activity with people walking to the gas station in the area today.
Obviously, I would have preferred the store to interact with the street better and the pumps in the back but we know that was never going to happen.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2018, 09:46:43 PM
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU123017/i-nhr9bxQ/0/059291e3/L/20171230_121953-L.jpg)
It has a fence. That's about the only significant difference that stands out from every other new Gate being built.
Maybe when the pumps are 65% occupied they will turn the fence into retail...
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 06, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2018, 09:46:43 PM
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU123017/i-nhr9bxQ/0/059291e3/L/20171230_121953-L.jpg)
It has a fence. That's about the only significant difference that stands out from every other new Gate being built.
Maybe when the pumps are 65% occupied they will turn the fence into retail...
I live in Manhattan and, up until recently, even we had gas stations with the pumps on the street. I'm not as concerned with a new gas station being super pedestrian-accessible because gas stations are really there for motorists. They're auto-centric by their very nature. For street-side vibrancy, Brooklyn enthusiasts should be looking at design elements of the many other retail options that may eventually come along. In my view, the Fresh Market strip design was an incredibly wasted opportunity for a downtown retail complex. I don't mind that design so much for the Southgate redevelopment, but the city could have done much better for Brooklyn.
Hopefully they will let the hedges grow a bit and how about some benches.
Quote from: jaxnyc79 on January 06, 2018, 04:41:16 AM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 06, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 05, 2018, 09:46:43 PM
(http://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU123017/i-nhr9bxQ/0/059291e3/L/20171230_121953-L.jpg)
It has a fence. That's about the only significant difference that stands out from every other new Gate being built.
Maybe when the pumps are 65% occupied they will turn the fence into retail...
I live in Manhattan and, up until recently, even we had gas stations with the pumps on the street. I'm not as concerned with a new gas station being super pedestrian-accessible because gas stations are really there for motorists. They're auto-centric by their very nature. For street-side vibrancy, Brooklyn enthusiasts should be looking at design elements of the many other retail options that may eventually come along. In my view, the Fresh Market strip design was an incredibly wasted opportunity for a downtown retail complex. I don't mind that design so much for the Southgate redevelopment, but the city could have done much better for Brooklyn.
If you can't get a gas station that rips down an entire block to face the street, forget about getting a shopping center to do it. People here have mentioned being impressed with Orlando and Columbus. Well in those cities, Gate would have either conformed to their building placement standards or found a site outside of the urban core. We haven't developed that type of backbone and it shows in the style of the development we get.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4754184480_zfVD9kx-L.jpg)
Columbus
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4754184447_C9nM9cT-L.jpg)
Columbus
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/4754184343_4Wg6mw3-L.jpg)
Orlando
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Misc2/i-sqsnBck/0/XL/7-eleven%20princeton-XL.jpg)
Orlando
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on January 06, 2018, 12:08:59 AM
Maybe when the pumps are 65% occupied they will turn the fence into retail...
I laughed :D
I've been hearing some talk lately that Wawa is planning to build a store across the street where River Region is (390 Park).