Bitter Editorial About All The Potential: Rob Middleton
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/Editorials/i-ctC9ZXP/0/L/robmiddleton-L.jpg)
Echoing a very widespread and angry feeling that has become common amongst the visionary class of Jacksonville, Rob Middleton vents a little steam about a City that has everything at its fingertips necessary to become a great city but chooses to stay a coal rather than become a diamond. Join us after the jump for some zeitgeisty rage.
Read More: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2016-feb-bitter-editorial-about-all-the-potential-rob-middleton
This should be sent to city council, the mayor and every independent authority signed by every citizen in Jax!
Bitter, but 100% on point.
hahaha. pretty funny.
Spot on!
Ha ha! Let's do a study on it . . . and then shelve it . . . and do a study on something else, it's the Jacksonville way!
It goes along with our city motto, "In Ten Years Things Will Be Great!!"
Better City Motto, because in 10 years, it won't be any different:
Jacksonville: Come see our Blueprints!
or perhaps...
Our taxes are as low as our Quality of life!
Quote from: UNFurbanist on February 18, 2016, 02:47:48 PM
This should be sent to city council, the mayor and every independent authority signed by every citizen in Jax!
+1000000
Just a correction but Charlotte does not have an HRO.
http://www.hrc.org/blog/charlotte-city-council-schedules-non-discrimination-vote-for-february-22
Been here exactly 2 years now, as a downtown business owner and resident, up from Orlando... have to say, every point in his rant was dead on. I was excited at first but now just... not. At least the traffic ain't as bad :(
You should take the word "BITTER" out of the title of this thread. It's not necessarily bitter, but it sure is 100% honest.
How about : "Honest Editorial About all the Wasted Potential"
I have blogged on here numerous times about how the Berkman II is a perfect symbol for Jacksonville's Downtown.........................
I attended the Historical Council of Realtors luncheon at the Laura Street Trio today. Lovely space and it was interesting to hear the plans and intentions from the developer, Steve Akins. No doubt the plans have merit and no way should these buildings be lost like most of our historical buildings downtown. Not sure that the community gets that the city has to have the political will and resources to preserve and restore whats left (very little) of our historical skyline. I heard that the mayor has put a moratorium on ANY spending while the pension issues are resolved, so Laura Street buildings sit empty and continue their downward slide. Truly a one horse town apparently. So much potential to create a walkable, attractive community in whats left of our urban landscape. We keep talking about the success of Brooklyn but i see empty fields with rows of commercial buildings obstructing the river access and views and some flashy new apartments. The history? the older homes? all plowed under. Same with Lavilla. We are good at demolition and "laying the groundwork" for exciting plans but restoring, preserving and building on the resources we already have? theres the rub. Revitalization should not be annihilation.
i hosted an out of town group this week from the likes of Boston, Philly, NYC and S. Florida. I heard nothing but genuine positive comments on the livability and beauty of our fair city.
You couldn't pay me enough money to move to a lily white, corporate town like Charlotte.
New motto (thank you, Mr. Dante): "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions!"
Quote from: cindy394 on February 18, 2016, 10:03:12 PM
I attended the Historical Council of Realtors luncheon at the Laura Street Trio today. Lovely space and it was interesting to hear the plans and intentions from the developer, Steve Akins. No doubt the plans have merit and no way should these buildings be lost like most of our historical buildings downtown. Not sure that the community gets that the city has to have the political will and resources to preserve and restore whats left (very little) of our historical skyline. I heard that the mayor has put a moratorium on ANY spending while the pension issues are resolved, so Laura Street buildings sit empty and continue their downward slide. Truly a one horse town apparently. So much potential to create a walkable, attractive community in whats left of our urban landscape. We keep talking about the success of Brooklyn but i see empty fields with rows of commercial buildings obstructing the river access and views and some flashy new apartments. The history? the older homes? all plowed under. Same with Lavilla. We are good at demolition and "laying the groundwork" for exciting plans but restoring, preserving and building on the resources we already have? theres the rub. Revitalization should not be annihilation.
I don't know if I necessarily disagree with the moratorium on extra public spending until the pension issue is figured out. It is scary how much it appears to be holding the city back. With that said I absolutely believe the Trio and Barnett should be exceptions. Particularly the Trio, it is the one project downtown that definitely has to happen soon. It is very much like the pension issue itself, I don't think downtown can really progress much without it fixed and restored. Everyone is in line and on board for that project except the city with the minimal contribution they are being asked for in incentives.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 19, 2016, 08:26:21 AM
I'm so sick of shit like this. 1) Jax isn't so bad. There's lots of awesome things happening here. True, but there are many ways it can be improved. 2) The author acts like its just so easy to build more skyway, renovate buildings that cost hundreds of millions of dollars, etc.I really didn't pickup that he was implying it was easy, I picked up that they are half assed attempts that never get finished. As to the latter point: the reasons for failure are many, and writing some semi-clever and smug as hell editorial doesn't solve any of them. Again true, but this is a discussion forum, and what better place to discuss issues like this?
Why don't you take these visitors on our amazing riverwalk, which has been recently developed and is amazing?As long as you keep them far away from McCoy and Hogan's creek, sure. Why not take them to 5 Points, which has done a total 180 in the past 25 years, or King Street, which has come SO FAR? Totally agree with you. Or take them to our absolutely gorgeous and amazing beaches and the awesome thing happening out there.Because the beaches are not downtown, not the core, which is where he was discussing. Waaaah, One SPark failed-- anyone who actually thought that was somehow going to rescue/revitalize/substantially change our city clearly wasn't paying attention. Sure it was a complete and utter failure financially, and the concept was not sustainable, but having all of the vendors and a almost carnival like atmosphere downtown was...refreshing
Quote from: SunKing on February 19, 2016, 12:43:31 AM
i hosted an out of town group this week from the likes of Boston, Philly, NYC and S. Florida. I heard nothing but genuine positive comments on the livability and beauty of our fair city.
You couldn't pay me enough money to move to a lily white, corporate town like Charlotte.
As already stated, everybody is excited in the beginning.
Quote from: Knstt on February 19, 2016, 09:15:02 AM
Quote from: SunKing on February 19, 2016, 12:43:31 AM
i hosted an out of town group this week from the likes of Boston, Philly, NYC and S. Florida. I heard nothing but genuine positive comments on the livability and beauty of our fair city.
You couldn't pay me enough money to move to a lily white, corporate town like Charlotte.
As already stated, everybody is excited in the beginning.
Actually these people have been coming down here for years.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 19, 2016, 08:26:21 AM
I'm so sick of shit like this. 1) Jax isn't so bad. There's lots of awesome things happening here. 2) The author acts like its just so easy to build more skyway, renovate buildings that cost hundreds of millions of dollars, etc. As to the latter point: the reasons for failure are many, and writing some semi-clever and smug as hell editorial doesn't solve any of them.
Why don't you take these visitors on our amazing riverwalk, which has been recently developed and is amazing? Why not take them to 5 Points, which has done a total 180 in the past 25 years, or King Street, which has come SO FAR? Or take them to our absolutely gorgeous and amazing beaches and the awesome thing happening out there. Waaaah, One SPark failed-- anyone who actually thought that was somehow going to rescue/revitalize/substantially change our city clearly wasn't paying attention.
Rachel, I agree with you totally.
Mark it well, kids, proof that anything can happen.
Quote from: stephendare on February 19, 2016, 10:31:20 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 19, 2016, 10:25:46 AM
Mark it well, kids, proof that anything can happen.
As long as it is a change from what has been happening since the day your dad left office. Everything that is good with this city has happened because of groups like this one, and usually only after fighting the city tooth and nail while getting it done.
This city needs a political water change.
I agree with both Rachel and Stephen on the same day. Signs and wonders!
the problem is not lack simply a lack of leadership. it is more the effects of consolidation. too many issues for too many people to decide on. its controlled chaos.
This is weird. I agree with MMR 100%!
Quote from: SunKing on February 19, 2016, 10:50:53 AM
the problem is not lack simply a lack of leadership. it is more the effects of consolidation. too many issues for too many people to decide on. its controlled chaos.
Nope. Not in the least. It's leadership pure and simple. Nashville has been consolidated longer than JAX and is absolutely booming, with DT leading the way. Indy is another example, Louisville another, Charlotte for all intents and purposes is as well. Norfolk too. That is just off the top of my head and not many cities are consolidated to begin with. This is one totally bogus crutch that needs to go once and for all.
There was a lot going on DT during both the Godbold and Delaney administrations, albeit some of it misguided perhaps, but a lot was happening. JAX was consolidated then too.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 19, 2016, 10:54:29 AM
Quote from: stephendare on February 19, 2016, 09:26:37 AM
We do need to finish things. We do need to stop being so half assed and narrow visioned.
And its pissing off a lot of people that we can't seem to get the right people in place to do that.
I agree with those points, and maybe I mis-read the column as it was early and I was still getting going. It is frustrating that we can't get things done, but people also have to realize that most of us are outsiders in our opinions when you consider Jacksonville at-large. While we realize a working, and far reaching Skyway would be killer and that downtown revitalization would help us all, most Jaxsons don't feel that way. I think a lot of solutions start with convincing our friends/family/colleagues who live out in Mandarin (barf) and Nocatee (double barf) that these are important issues.
The frustration of backward mindset and half-assed fulfillment of DT projects resonates with a lot of us MJ readers but there is one glimmer of hope that this can all change: the succes so-far of new residential and retail projects close to (but not quite in) downtown. All is not lost if these projects (particularly retail) can create a real spark in not only developing the core but getting some of these long planned projects off the ground and not falling victim to time and indifference.
Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on February 19, 2016, 03:53:25 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 19, 2016, 10:54:29 AM
Quote from: stephendare on February 19, 2016, 09:26:37 AM
We do need to finish things. We do need to stop being so half assed and narrow visioned.
And its pissing off a lot of people that we can't seem to get the right people in place to do that.
I agree with those points, and maybe I mis-read the column as it was early and I was still getting going. It is frustrating that we can't get things done, but people also have to realize that most of us are outsiders in our opinions when you consider Jacksonville at-large. While we realize a working, and far reaching Skyway would be killer and that downtown revitalization would help us all, most Jaxsons don't feel that way. I think a lot of solutions start with convincing our friends/family/colleagues who live out in Mandarin (barf) and Nocatee (double barf) that these are important issues.
The frustration of backward mindset and half-assed fulfillment of DT projects resonates with a lot of us MJ readers but there is one glimmer of hope that this can all change: the succes so-far of new residential and retail projects close to (but not quite in) downtown. All is not lost if these projects (particularly retail) can create a real spark in not only developing the core but getting some of these long planned projects off the ground and not falling victim to time and indifference.
+1 If there is a market and money to be made then it will happen regardless of poor political vision.
Bold New Potential Of The South
The editorial was well written but there a few facts that need to be mentioned. JTA is very seriously considering expanding the ASE east on Bay Street to the Stadium, east from just south of King Street Station to "The District" and also south to San Marco/Kings Road/Phillips Highway, to the southwest from the Operations Center down Riverside Avenue. This is a long time coming but JTA's new regime has decided to make transit a priority.
The Laura Street Trio is being held up by a parking dispute. The Barnett Building where the offices will be is basically two blocks from the ASE Hemming Plaza Station and many employees can park and ride. There are four garages within two blocks which are not 100% occupied providing space for apartment dwellers and employees at the Barnett Tower and there should be space for 131 surface valet spaces for the planned boutique hotel. This is developers and financiers' fault for not being reasonable about parking requirements.
Regarding the $8 million for the developer. The project will cost $90 million; the just market value and tax value should be the same per the property improvements at $76.5 million. If this amount $65 million will be available for use to fund REV Bonds. The taxes to be paid toward the REV Bonds would be $743,723 which at todays interest rates and with required principal payments would allow the REV Bonds to be issued for $13,424,611. This is much more in public funds available than the $8 million requested and it does not impact the city's general fund.
I for one am ecstatic that JTA is going to make transit a priority...
We need visionaries. We need true coalition builders, not someone with empty platitudes (One city, One Jacksonville). We need leaders who will take a stand, even if we disagree with them. We need leaders, not party bosses. Low expectations and lack of vision never helped make any great city great. We need leaders who will stand up to unbridled development and put us on a path to responsible and sustainable growth. Overbuild (or raze) it and they will come. Until something newer and flashier comes along. Look to Portland, Oregon for a city which tackled suburban sprawl decades ago and whose downtown has thrived. Maybe we should lure retired Charleston Mayor Joe Riley out of retirement. Thirty years in the job and folks from all corners gasped when he decided not to run again.
All that said, I agree with others posting here about Brooklyn, 5 Points, MOCA, The Cummer, the potential for expanded mass transit, etc. But then look at Lavilla. A historic neighborhood that was razed as part of Mayor Ed Austin's 'River City Renaissance' plan over two decades ago. Urban renewal at its worst. Drive into downtown from I-95 and look at the asphalt, broken concrete and grass parking lots. Further stabilization and revitalization of Springfield, Jacksonville's oldest suburb, is largely ignored by the city. There are few neighborhoods with the history and diversity of architectural styles in the entire southeast. Jacksonville is unique in Florida in that it was the largest urban center in the state before and after the Fire of 1901. Springfield, Riverside/Avondale, San Marco, what was Lavilla, and other neighborhoods all create the historic fabric of Jacksonville, much like Charleston and Savannah - cities who are not continuously asking "What is our identity?". While it took a long time and loads of hard work, they embraced their identity and tourists flock there, boosting the tax base. Crack open Wayne Woods book, 'Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage', or more closely follow the posts here on Metro Jacksonville to see what has been lost to the wrecking ball and "progress." Jacksonville's identity is in the rich and diverse history, and the equally rich and diverse historic architectural heritage throughout this huge and often hot mess of consolidation. Jacksonville and the beaches have a lot going for them, but how long will it take until we have leaders who rise up to the challenge of leading the charge toward the "greatness" for which we yearn? I want someone with a truly comprehensive plan. I want to be inspired.
While we have our problems here in Atlanta. Everything in that article is why I moved from Jacksonville and why I have a hard time convincing myself of moving back to Jacksonville.
I would love to be back home; but I do not want to live in a town that is not progressive.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 19, 2016, 01:55:37 PM
Quote from: SunKing on February 19, 2016, 10:50:53 AM
the problem is not lack simply a lack of leadership. it is more the effects of consolidation. too many issues for too many people to decide on. its controlled chaos.
Nope. Not in the least. It's leadership pure and simple. Nashville has been consolidated longer than JAX and is absolutely booming, with DT leading the way. Indy is another example, Louisville another, Charlotte for all intents and purposes is as well. Norfolk too. That is just off the top of my head and not many cities are consolidated to begin with. This is one totally bogus crutch that needs to go once and for all.
There was a lot going on DT during both the Godbold and Delaney administrations, albeit some of it misguided perhaps, but a lot was happening. JAX was consolidated then too.
Really??? Were you DT last night? I saw a lot of people enjoying an evening on Bay Street at multiple establishments. And this was after 10pm. I dont remember anything like that except maybe Milk Bar and Annie Tiques back in the day.
Nobody seemed to really be concerned about "leadership."
But my point is more about the tools that we give our leadership. Those other cities you mention grant more power to the consolidated municipalities to provide for independent budgets of the county.
Nashville and Indianapolis are consolidated and cities like Memphis, Charlotte and San Diego covers hundreds of miles, yet they've found a way to create vibrant downtowns, so consolidation can't necessarily be used as an excuse for some of the issues plaguing Jax. One of the most frustrating things to me in the past has been that this stuff isn't really rocket science. All we need to do is open our eyes and look at the world outside of Duval County's borders. The answers and examples (both good and bad) are there, so there's no need for us to make things more difficult and time consuming by trying to recreate the wheel.
With that in mind, I believe the best thing for Jax would be visionary leadership. Just about everything else is already in place and has been in place for a while now. You can have all the money and community activism in the world but if your leadership isn't a true facilitator, those efforts won't reach their full potential or economic impact on the surrounding landscape.
For example, we've spent as much money in downtown revitalization over the last 30 years as many other vibrant cities across the country. We've invested in convention centers, urban retail marketplaces, hotels, riverwalks, stadiums and arenas, mass transit, parks, etc. We've also seen our surrounding urban neighborhoods enjoy economic progress despite the rapid growth of our burbs and surrounding counties. Yet, when you get past money spent and start looking at site design, architectural design, transportation/land use integration, compatibility, historic preservation, context sensitive streets, quality of public schools, public space maintenance/integration with surrounding land uses at the pedestrian scale level.....all things largely driven by public policy and investment.....you'll quickly discover where we've lacked big time.
These are the kind of items and areas we'll need to put a lot more public effort into and these things require leadership that understands why they are important. These are the type of "non sexy" items that when combined with money and civic activism can turn a place like DT Jax into an environment like the Inner Harbor, Chattanooga's riverfront or Charleston's urban core faster than most assume.
Quote from: SunKing on February 20, 2016, 08:12:54 AMReally??? Were you DT last night? I saw a lot of people enjoying an evening on Bay Street at multiple establishments. And this was after 10pm. I dont remember anything like that except maybe Milk Bar and Annie Tiques back in the day.
Nobody seemed to really be concerned about "leadership."
Depends on what you're comparing the area you saw last night with. If compared with a place that has truly embraced urbanism, even our best neighborhoods and nodes can seem pretty underwhelming. If compared with a place that has not or with what those few blocks resembled a few years ago, then you see some progress.
Speaking of DT nightlife and activity, I work downtown and put in a late night on Thursday. Around 9pm, I left the office only to find out my garage card became inactive sometime between 3pm and 5pm. When you need assistance at 9pm, you really see how much the place empties out. In the end, I had to leave my truck in the garage, get someone to pick me up and return during the day when other humans were in the vicinity.
IMO one of the biggest reasons for failure in the Downtown Urban Core can be found downtown. At 3 Independent Drive, to be exact.
The Chamber of Commerce. If you work there then you see all the crap downtown every day and either decide it's too difficult to fix or you just don't give a damn. I'm under the impression that one of the core responsibilities of the CoC is to promote the City of Jacksonville as a great place to live work and play, and to relocate your business here. While there have been plenty of successes in the last 20 years there have been almost none within a 3 mile radius of the actual site of the CoC building in Downtown. The Shipyards lies vacant and polluted. The Laura Street Trio is in shambles. And the list goes on (I'm seeing you Berkman II)............... Not sure what you folks think but I give them a grade of "D".
What about EverBank and Citizens Property Insurance bringing thousands in?
I just find it odd to blame "leadership" without determining the challenges that face said leadership.
I don't rely on the mayor or council to make my bed for me in the morning any more than I would expect them to "fix" Downtown.
^Exactly. If you had visionary leadership, after investing millions in a convention center and hotel, they'd be next to each other instead of a mile a part. After spending $184 million on a fixed transit system, with visionary leadership the route would have actually taken people to where they wanted to go. Many of our big public investments would have been within walking distance of its stations too. I can come up with tons of examples of bad implementation of needed things, leading to the environment that exists today.
Can't the CoC provide some of that "Visionary Leadership"? I'm not seeing it.
This editorial pretty much sums up how I feel about Jacksonville. The constant waste of potential and complacency with the average and below-average has made me want to move away as soon as I can.
Just had brunch at Uptown Kitchen. Well done.
Drove through Downtown on the way home. It was depressing. The fellows observations are spot on.
Quote from: stephendare on February 20, 2016, 10:38:07 AM
Quote from: SunKing on February 20, 2016, 10:23:49 AM
I just find it odd to blame "leadership" without determining the challenges that face said leadership.
I don't rely on the mayor or council to make my bed for me in the morning any more than I would expect them to "fix" Downtown.
unfortunately the simile doesn't hold up.
The City is the controlling landowner downtown and the administrator of multiple levels of policy and policy making vehicles that decide every square inch of the place.
It would be more accurate if you didn't expect the city to make your bed, if the bed was being watched by surveillance camera, with five people being paid to make it, (but staring judgmentally at you instead) and a sign painted onto the headboard that warns you that making the bed is a jailable offense. ;)
The City's control over DT is a point well taken and that is indeed the missed opportunity. Downtown is simply another council district fighting for a voice. Without some autonomy, there is no real accountability and therefore nothing gets accomplished-at the leadership level. You make downtown or for that matter our urban core, a legitimate governing district like a NY borough and things would get done.
^Lack of residents is a bigger issue there. Unlike Riverside, Avondale, and San Marco, there are too few people living Downtown to advocate effectively. The people who advocate for downtown by and large don't live there. There also aren't enough people to support many "neighborhood" businesses, so most of what crops up there serves commuters.
rob - smile next time, you have a great one!
Being only 26 and having lived in Jax my entire life, I've constantly waited on some sort of "boom" to happen to our urban core. Constant ideas thrown around but no real progress. It's frustrating to know we have to be one of the only "major" cities that that sits on the river and doesn't utilize it at ALL.
Beautiful buildings and history that have been thrown to the wayside, and the Jacksonville Landing which looks like a tacky strip mall from the 1980's with a giant gum ball machine and Hooters. While areas like riverside and the beaches have shown great signs of progress, without a great downtown, it doesn't get me excited for the future. I hadn't traveled in quite sometime and spent last week in SF for work. While i'm not trying to compare the two cities at all, it was quite an eye opening experience coming back here.
^When you do that often enough, you even begin to realize the scale/density, etc. of our vibrant spots like Riverside and San Marco still pale in comparison. About 10 years ago, after spending a week in Toronto (which included a road trip to at least 10 Midwestern and Southern cities), I got back to town and went out the next morning to get pics for an urban construction update. The first 15 minutes out on the street were so depressing, I gave up and returned home. Around that time, I basically accepted Jax for what it is. It has its niche and the area certainly has appeal to certain types of lifestyles. However, if you prefer urbanism/walkability/density, etc. that's simply not a local niche and no amount of money invested into random sites like the Shipyards are going to change that anytime soon. Since then, my outlook has been to work to strive to improve things locally, while also fully accepting that we're a second to third class american city on the urban lifestyle front.
Quote from: SunKing on February 21, 2016, 03:48:49 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 20, 2016, 10:38:07 AM
Quote from: SunKing on February 20, 2016, 10:23:49 AM
I just find it odd to blame "leadership" without determining the challenges that face said leadership.
I don't rely on the mayor or council to make my bed for me in the morning any more than I would expect them to "fix" Downtown.
unfortunately the simile doesn't hold up.
The City is the controlling landowner downtown and the administrator of multiple levels of policy and policy making vehicles that decide every square inch of the place.
It would be more accurate if you didn't expect the city to make your bed, if the bed was being watched by surveillance camera, with five people being paid to make it, (but staring judgmentally at you instead) and a sign painted onto the headboard that warns you that making the bed is a jailable offense. ;)
The City's control over DT is a point well taken and that is indeed the missed opportunity. Downtown is simply another council district fighting for a voice. Without some autonomy, there is no real accountability and therefore nothing gets accomplished-at the leadership level. You make downtown or for that matter our urban core, a legitimate governing district like a NY borough and things would get done.
NY isn't really an accurate comparison in that regard. If you're referring to the Borough President's role, it's largely symbolic (About as much power as the US Vice President, minus presiding over the senate). They are prominent cheerleaders, but that's the extent. Further, Manhattan has 1.6 Million people - plenty to advocate for it.
The key for me with Downtown (besides caring and having a vision) is two things:
1. Understand Connectivity. It was said brilliantly earlier in post here. If you take all of the projects that the city invested in during 1985-2005 and had clustered them together, downtown would have been a very different place. The Convention Center and 966 room hotel not being within walking distance is the "Mic Drop" here as far as that argument goes. I realize that the Convention Center project contributed to saving the Train Station, but the fact remains that once you leave the convention center you have to walk four blocks until you see another building - doesn't work.
It's one of the reasons I'm a huge proponent for the Laura Trio. The $8 million is pennies compared to what we've spent already down there, plus it activates street frontage on Adams, Laura, and Forsyth Streets - you've nearly connected Hemming to the Elbow with that one project.
We can go back into history and see why leaders did what they did (Convention Center saved the train station, leaving the Stadium being in BFE was cheaper because we reused the West Side Upper Deck, and on and on), the bottom line is that the decisions were made and that's why we are where we are.
2. Sticking to A plan (but revising when necessary). How many plans have we come up with that we haven't followed?
For people looking for San Francisco or Toronto, it's never going to happen, nor should it. But there's a level of "urbanism" or whatever you want to call it that should be achievable here. A major part of the problem is that the mayor changes every four to eight years and they generally just start over on their own plans every time, and the city council changes just as frequently.
Of course, editorials like this don't bring us any closer or even bring to light what the problems are. Especially when it gets basic facts wrong (the much vaunted Charlotte does NOT have an HRO).
Quote from: stephendare on February 22, 2016, 11:00:41 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 22, 2016, 10:43:08 AM
For people looking for San Francisco or Toronto, it's never going to happen, nor should it. But there's a level of "urbanism" or whatever you want to call it that should be achievable here. A major part of the problem is that the mayor changes every four to eight years and they generally just start over on their own plans every time, and the city council changes just as frequently.
Of course, editorials like this don't bring us any closer or even bring to light what the problems are. Especially when it gets basic facts wrong (the much vaunted Charlotte does NOT have an HRO).
Much as I love you, this is bullshit. Every City, large and great has a period where they are just like Jville. Whether or not we can become San Francisco overnight is not (nor has it ever been) the question. Its whether or not we are going in a direction that eventually takes us to the same levels of vibrancy, business energy and cultural vitality.
San Francisco actually has limitations that we simply do not have to overcome in its topography. As does Manhattan and any other island city. They overcame them.
And we can do the same. If we are going to shoot for a future, lets shoot for one worth having and not set our sights on achieving what is considered mediocre even now in our present time. By the time we achieve todays mediocrity, it will be tomorrows bottom level of failure.
The changeover of the administrations have been a problem. One that we solved largely by an entrenched civil service. Peyton subverted that and Alvin literally wrecked it, Sam is putting it back in place, and he is doing so in a technology enabled era where we can literally refer back to original intentions and track plans.
I think with the new technology alone it is possible to overcome the limitations of term limits---as far as the implementations of good planning go. Perhaps not the political acumen, but as we are seeing with this vindictive new mayor, maybe thats not so undesirable.
And yes, editorials like this one do serve that purpose. Progress has two masters. Success and Rebuke.
If the problems that Rob has pointed out are easily solved and/or unknown to you, then an editorial like Robs can serve to remind people that we have to occasionally get off of our dead asses and do something.
For every time someone says "Well done!" or 'Good Try', there has to be someone along the way saying 'This isn't working' or 'The emperor has no clothes'.
Not sure what you disagree with. I'm sure that San Fran and Toronto have their own problems, but Jacksonville will never been remotely that size and scope, at least not for a very long time. We appear to agree on the leadership. This is a structural problem, I don't think our system isn't set up to attract the best or most effective leadership or to encourage continuity of vision. It's set up to ensure turnover.
On the editorial, I'm sure you're right - a good editorial could remind people to "get off our dead asses and do something". This ain't that. Though I guess it's "zeitgeisty" in capturing the incomparable capacity of Jacksonville residents to whine.
Quote from: stephendare on February 22, 2016, 11:22:40 AM
And here is what is happening tonight in Charlotte: Its expected to pass despite the Republican Governor calling two Republican Councilmen and basically threatening to take legislative action if the city passes the ordinance.
QuoteLast year's vote focused on the bathroom provision for transgender residents.
Supporters of the expanded measure believed they didn't have six votes on the council for the full ordinance, including the bathroom flexibility. So Vi Lyles, the current mayor pro tem, proposed an ordinance with all protections except the bathroom flexibility.
That version failed 6-5. Two council members who supported the ordinance – John Autry and LaWana Mayfield – said they wouldn't support a watered-down proposal.
This year, at least eight of 11 council members have said they will support the ordinance.
Read more here: http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article61307857.html
Glad to hear it. If it had happened last week it would have spared the author from publishing an embarrassing and easily checked factual error.
In my post, I mentioned Toronto, but that road trip included several cities I'd consider to be around Jax's scale. These included Nashville, Indianapolis, Louisville, Birmingham, Columbus, Toledo. Then there were a few in what I'd consider a tier above Jax like Charlotte, Detroit and Cleveland. Then a few that I'd equate more to Lakeland, than Jax, like Lexington, Knoxville, Asheville, Greenville, Columbia and Charleston, WV.
In terms of CBD health and vitality, at the time, only Birmingham, Columbia, Charleston and Toledo (this city appeared to need the most help) seemed to be in equal or worse shape. Indy, Columbus and Nashville were light years ahead, Cleveland and Detroit were surprising (given the bad press these places get) and Asheville and Greenville are definitely overlooked treasures. I do believe Jax has the tools and potential to be just as successful as the most successful secondary cities I visited during that Toronto trip. However, I also believe visionary leadership is the missing element needed to get Jax over the hump.
Quote from: stephendare on February 22, 2016, 11:48:52 AM
Yes. aside from friendly poking and quibbling, I think Tacahale and I both agree with you wholeheartedly.
Quite so, 100%.
"However, I also believe visionary leadership is the missing element needed to get Jax over the hump." Lake, how much does public financing also fit this. What if the leadership has no way to implement. Again, my issue with JAX is "second lowest tax rate" of any major city in US. Public monies may still be required at this time to implement the vision.
I don't see public financing as a problem. We've spent tons of money on things and billions on various downtown revitalization oriented initiatives over the last couple of decades. Unfortunately, because coordination and implementation hasn't been great, the economic spin-off isn't close to what it could have been.
Can anyone speculate how Google Fiber will impact the core if they decide to build the infrastructure?
Quote from: camarocane on February 22, 2016, 02:45:51 PM
Can anyone speculate how Google Fiber will impact the core if they decide to build the infrastructure?
I think it will be a positive, but not dramatically. I'm in IT, and given Comcast's coverage in Jacksonville (however hated they are), I can't imagine deciding where to move based on Google Fiber availability.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 22, 2016, 11:46:55 AM
In terms of CBD health and vitality, at the time, only Birmingham, Columbia, Charleston and Toledo (this city appeared to need the most help) seemed to be in equal or worse shape.
Really, Charleston SC CBD is in the same level of dis-repair as Jax? Please clarify because I would trade 5 Jax Landings to have anything like Charleston's King St. retail corridor... ;)
^Charleston, WV
Here's pics from another stop I made in Charleston back in 2009:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-mar-elements-of-urbanism-charleston-wv
Quote from: thelakelander on February 22, 2016, 05:40:43 PM
^Charleston, WV
Here's pics from another stop I made in Charleston back in 2009:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-mar-elements-of-urbanism-charleston-wv
JACKSONVILLE!! - Like Charleston, West Virginia (without the presence of major retail)
Shit, I need to lie down or I'll vomit :-\
Quote from: camarocane on February 22, 2016, 02:45:51 PM
Can anyone speculate how Google Fiber will impact the core if they decide to build the infrastructure?
That could actually be seen as a positive - the ability to massively upgrade public utilities and infrastructure in the core. At least that would not inconvenience too many people (compared to other cities).
Quote from: SunKing on February 19, 2016, 10:50:53 AM
the problem is not lack simply a lack of leadership. it is more the effects of consolidation. too many issues for too many people to decide on. its controlled chaos.
Excellent point. Everything is too spread out--political leadership, neighborhoods--and so no one focuses enough on any one area to make it great. It is incredibly frustrating.
Quote from: stephendare on February 23, 2016, 11:07:25 AM
Quote from: Kay on February 23, 2016, 07:51:35 AM
Quote from: SunKing on February 19, 2016, 10:50:53 AM
the problem is not lack simply a lack of leadership. it is more the effects of consolidation. too many issues for too many people to decide on. its controlled chaos.
Excellent point. Everything is too spread out--political leadership, neighborhoods--and so no one focuses enough on any one area to make it great. It is incredibly frustrating.
Democracy is frustrating though. As is city and community building. Depriving the historic neighborhoods of access to infrastructure money isn't the answer to 'how do we make this less frustrating?' though.
If we had a functional council and a decent mayor it would work fairly well.
Good and solid leadership makes the tough calls and we have not had a Mayor or City Council that is willing to do that for quite some time. The HRO would have been one of those leadership moments and yet it is another bad call and the easy way out...meaning the way the political money men want it to go...the way the powerful churches want it to go. In the case of a vibrant Urban Core and DT? The same applies. It will take strong leadership to convince the public it is what is best for the future of all of Jacksonville. Consolidation is the excuse not the real reason we are failing in the urban core. It is predominately more about the who than the what, just like the HRO.
Quote from: strider on February 23, 2016, 12:05:42 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 23, 2016, 11:07:25 AM
Quote from: Kay on February 23, 2016, 07:51:35 AM
Quote from: SunKing on February 19, 2016, 10:50:53 AM
the problem is not lack simply a lack of leadership. it is more the effects of consolidation. too many issues for too many people to decide on. its controlled chaos.
Excellent point. Everything is too spread out--political leadership, neighborhoods--and so no one focuses enough on any one area to make it great. It is incredibly frustrating.
Democracy is frustrating though. As is city and community building. Depriving the historic neighborhoods of access to infrastructure money isn't the answer to 'how do we make this less frustrating?' though.
If we had a functional council and a decent mayor it would work fairly well.
Good and solid leadership makes the tough calls and we have not had a Mayor or City Council that is willing to do that for quite some time. The HRO would have been one of those leadership moments and yet it is another bad call and the easy way out...meaning the way the political money men want it to go...the way the powerful churches want it to go. In the case of a vibrant Urban Core and DT? The same applies. It will take strong leadership to convince the public it is what is best for the future of all of Jacksonville. Consolidation is the excuse not the real reason we are failing in the urban core. It is predominately more about the who than the what, just like the HRO.
Very true and well stated.
We need a cure,or better yet, a credible description.............
Music.
Recurring Bonobo
Better Yet! :
"Gentle Dissolve"
Thievery Corporation
Middleton may have missed some additional key elements of Missed Potential.Entry Level.Missed Potential.Universal.
You have done well, young Jedi.
I arrived at your conclusions in 2000, moved to LA and never looked back. Well, ok, I do look back... to laugh and confirm my original hypothesis.
Like you, it always infuriated me and I wish it weren't so, but alas - it is. I always hope good ol' Cowford will prove me wrong, but it never does.
Quote from: escaped_to_LA on February 25, 2016, 08:13:25 PM
You have done well, young Jedi.
I arrived at your conclusions in 2000, moved to LA and never looked back. Well, ok, I do look back... to laugh and confirm my original hypothesis.
Like you, it always infuriated me and I wish it weren't so, but alas - it is. I always hope good ol' Cowford will prove me wrong, but it never does.
::)
Quote from: johnnyliar on February 26, 2016, 08:22:47 AM
Quote from: escaped_to_LA on February 25, 2016, 08:13:25 PM
You have done well, young Jedi.
I arrived at your conclusions in 2000, moved to LA and never looked back. Well, ok, I do look back... to laugh and confirm my original hypothesis.
Like you, it always infuriated me and I wish it weren't so, but alas - it is. I always hope good ol' Cowford will prove me wrong, but it never does.
::)
They need a "cool story, bro" emoji.
I think there is a larger point missed in all of this regardless of our size and sparkle. Jacksonville is the beach where the waters of ultra-modern plastic urbanism washes on the sands of rural America, the boundless Timucuan Preserve, the flora and fauna of the Okefenokee and the heritage of the Old South meets. Once we figure this out and embrace it, we are in a position unlike any other city large or small.
I agree that downtown needs a bath and some vision for the future, the whole consolidated city does. Witness something as simple as the everyday freeway overpass where cities large and small take advantage and emboss carved animals, floral and geometric patterns and many highlight the same with color lighting. We on the other hand seem to ignore these little details. I was amazed yesterday whilst driving through the back side of Deltona, literally in the middle of BFE from Satsuma to Osteen and discovered since incorporation they have broad new sidewalks, street lighting, furnishings, bike trails. If we can just get a grip on the simple basic things, Jacksonville would start turning the corner.
I seem to always regress to my same comment on this, but to do the things Deltona did takes not just a "vision" but tax dollars. And as I have mentioned before no one in JAX has the political will to raise taxes on the second lowest taxed city (local taxes) in the US.
Jacksonville has a beautiful setting on the St. John's river. Unfortunately, the setting has not been well incorporated into a master plan for the city. The city needs to hire a planner to develop a master plan for the core city, with Union Street as the northern boundary, west to the convention center, east to the river beyond the stadium and south to the river. Also, it is essential the city pass the HRO, a city this size has no excuse not to do so, it is an embarrassment.
First thing to do is turn the former courthouse, city hall and jail sires into a riverfront park from Bay street to the river. Then the city needs another program like better Jacksonville to stimulate redevelopment in the core. The lack of private developers is an indication the city needs to step in and help with financially sensible projects.
The adversity to tax increases has hurt the city, cities which thrive have higher taxes which stimulates private development. There needs to be a better balance of taxes vs: city services. Infrastructure improvements are essential all over the city, roads, sewers, bike lanes, sidewalks, landscaping are not free.
It is evident the city lacks proper zoning, landscaped setbacks, underground electric, phone and cable utilities,a sign ordinance which requires the phase in of eye level signage etc.
St. Johns county has done a fairly good job with this as has Fleming Island in Clay County and certain parks of Old OP. The new Brooklyn development and improvement in San Marco, Avondale and Five Points shopping districts has been a real boost to JAX. The newer development in Duval county has also done a decent job of enforcing CC&R's and zoning.
However, Jacksonville is a conservative, evangelical city which creates an obstacle to many of these improvements because citizens fiercely guard their property rights. All they are doing is keeping the city from achieving its potential.
Jacksonville has lagged the state in sensible development much to its detriment. Jacksonville is the Bakersfield, Ca. of Florida.
BTW, I did not see the Governor and Mayor greet the President today at Cecil Industrial Park, that was very childish of them. Just because they are Republicans who probably opposed the economic stimulus program should not preclude them from respecting the office of the President. If the White House requested they not greet the President then they are childish.
Jax had a pretty good master plan. We just didn't follow it.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 26, 2016, 03:30:40 PM
Jax had a pretty good master plan. We just didn't follow it.
The only master plan I am aware of was essentially a guidelines document regarding signage, streetscaping and such. It did not address 'what should go where' and in what order capital projects should be done, etc. If I am missing something wrong let me know.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 26, 2016, 04:19:29 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 26, 2016, 03:30:40 PM
Jax had a pretty good master plan. We just didn't follow it.
The only master plan I am aware of was essentially a guidelines document regarding signage, streetscaping and such. It did not address 'what should go where' and in what order capital projects should be done, etc. If I am missing something wrong let me know.
I meant the Downtown master plan: http://www.coj.net/departments/office-of-economic-development/docs/downtown-development/1--jacksonville-master-plansmall-copy.aspx
Quote from: Vista1877 on February 26, 2016, 01:57:00 PM
Jacksonville has a beautiful setting on the St. John's river. Unfortunately, the setting has not been well incorporated into a master plan for the city. The city needs to hire a planner to develop a master plan for the core city, with Union Street as the northern boundary, west to the convention center, east to the river beyond the stadium and south to the river.
BINGO! Me thinks we has discovered yet another constant fail, ending the 'core city' at the river... Um the Southside of the River is just as much and in many cases more urban than the north bank.
KEEP GIVING 'EM HELL GUYS, or whatever....
I wondered where you were while all of this was being posted I-10E . This is one of those strange times when I believe you and I are not that far apart.
This Thread has spurned great .........potential. I skipped the inclination to share the many dozens of reviews my customers and family members have observed while passing through Jacksonville,why all could have been happy these many years,how we might have escaped Booster Projects etc.
Naw,skip it. Lost Potential.Web Sites such as this certainly of minimal influence.Another lesson in lost Potential.
Better yet to finally receive Brilliant Insight: Today's Jacksonville is simply a result of where Jacksonville has been headed.
(And now know the window to move out pushed up ....)
I couldn't have said it better myself!! 2nd rate city and apparently the powers that be want it to stay that way.
Quote from: UNFurbanist on February 19, 2016, 04:29:58 PM
Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on February 19, 2016, 03:53:25 PM
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on February 19, 2016, 10:54:29 AM
Quote from: stephendare on February 19, 2016, 09:26:37 AM
We do need to finish things. We do need to stop being so half assed and narrow visioned.
And its pissing off a lot of people that we can't seem to get the right people in place to do that.
I agree with those points, and maybe I mis-read the column as it was early and I was still getting going. It is frustrating that we can't get things done, but people also have to realize that most of us are outsiders in our opinions when you consider Jacksonville at-large. While we realize a working, and far reaching Skyway would be killer and that downtown revitalization would help us all, most Jaxsons don't feel that way. I think a lot of solutions start with convincing our friends/family/colleagues who live out in Mandarin (barf) and Nocatee (double barf) that these are important issues.
The frustration of backward mindset and half-assed fulfillment of DT projects resonates with a lot of us MJ readers but there is one glimmer of hope that this can all change: the succes so-far of new residential and retail projects close to (but not quite in) downtown. All is not lost if these projects (particularly retail) can create a real spark in not only developing the core but getting some of these long planned projects off the ground and not falling victim to time and indifference.
+1 If there is a market and money to be made then it will happen regardless of poor political vision.
You'd be surprised. Maybe you've heard of the housing shortage crisis in the Bay Area/San Francisco, which seems to be at the forefront of the national spotlight a lot recently? The governance of the vision here is often left to the people to decide, so lo and behold nothing happens. And we are at the point where 350 sf studios down the street from me are going for $600K and the amount of societal angst in this town is like nothing I have experienced in my life.
Vision has to be properly guided. A political system that gets in the way, or leaders who are either visionless/spineless/incompetent/shitty (Jacksonville) or supplanted by an actual democracy (San Francisco) will of course hinder a vision.
These are real problems that must be tackled.
I loved this...Bravo!!! If memory serves correctly too, they recently announced that One Spark was such a success that it would be going from a one week event to a weekend, then again changed that to ONE DAY...same day as monthly art walk...The "whats coming" has basically been torturing me for the 22 years I have lived here!!!!! Loved the reflection you created... ;-)
Was in the company of One In The Know today, someone that possesses grasp of Jacksonville historical events which so often entailed pursuit of Potential. Conversation summed up: Folks try to do something for fifteen cents,when in fact it would have required a dollar.
Decline of Neighborhoods also common conversation thread.
For all we know,luckily some efforts to fulfill potential failed.