According to Urban Jacksonville (http://www.urbanjacksonville.info), TSI was shut down in a drug raid.
http://www.urbanjacksonville.info/2008/06/28/what-happened-at-tsi-friday-night/
Oh wow. That's not cool.
Whenever Jacksonville appears to be moving 10 steps forward, something idiodic like this happens to push it 1,000 steps backwards. Yeah, why don't they go into Jax Municipal Stadium and do the same thing, bet they'll be at least 1,000 people with marijuana, drug paraphanalia, and other illegal drugs on them; and see if they will close the stadium and chase the Jaguars out of town. This is so stupid and assonine.
Heights Unknown
Finding one person with a small amount of marijuana is an extremely unsuccessful "drug raid".
TSI should probably be commended for that actually.
Lets pat the crowd at the next Skynyrd concert and see how many have some reefer on them.
It is intimidation pure and simple. The fact that they brought in code inspectors along with the police just before the band began playing is proof. If they wanted to inspect they could have done it any day and given management some time to correct the "problems".
There's probably more cops with a stash greater then that on them. HA.
wonder what the (factual) code violations were?
that sucks goat.
I understood the drug raids back when the rave scene was at it's height of popularity > evolutions was full people rolling/ate up on couches everywhere. Same with club 5 at times but this?
kinda gay.
and why does TSI have to be shutdown for an undetermined amount of time again? the code violations I take it....
It's the mayor's office getting pissed at "us" for making them look bad I bet. _ _ Mayor.
I think TSI will emerge from this gloriously; how much did that ½ joint cost the tax payers?
I contend if authorities simply wanted code enforcement they could have done it in the middle of the day... this is simply intimidation.
this was such a sad display be the city. from what i've seen at the club, they def had some electrical work that was sub-par, and the entire up-stairs needs some serious work, but it's clear that the raid occurred purely to intimidate and harass.
nice use of time and money, JSO!
TSI Never has a problem. It's always the crowd at Marks, and the Dive Bar that causes the problem. Did those bars get raided or was it just TSI.
Could we get a list of the past year what clubs the DORKS have raided? It'd be so nice to post that here.
Quote from: stephendare on June 29, 2008, 12:34:54 PM
Interesting, the code inspection people closed down a good chunk of the city's gay bars after the following article was published.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,2166.0.html
like which ones?
lol - good post Shelton. after reading the info as presented here (I have not seen the other side yet), it does seem that this was a pretty ignorant, petty and focused attack on a relatively harmless and suprisingly successful nighttime downtown business.
What does Equality Now and the Human Rights campain think about the raiding of "gay" bars in jacksonville?
I am curious to see the actual police report. If in fact a small amount of pot and a few minor code issues were the catalyst for the DART, then I whole heartedly agree its ridiculous.
here is the only thing Jax Confidentialhad to say about the Metro closing...
QuoteWeeks ago, we heard rumors that the Metro at Willowbranch Avenue and College Street was closed by the City for building code infractions (none of those rumors were ever confirmed), after a brief hiatus the club re-opened several weeks ago following "renovations".
On Saturday morning I telephoned a high source at JSO about the DART program. He advised that it is a tip / complaint based program. A response is made based on the number and quality of the complaints.
Here is an outline of the DART Program from COJ.net:
Drug Abatement Response Team (DART)
DART Hotline 632-5567
Chronic drug dealing and other illegal activities cause neighborhood deterioration. By the same token, blighted conditions often precede drug houses and their associated activities.
The Jacksonville Drug Abatement Response Team (DART) was established in January 1996 to combat illegal drugs in Jacksonville by focusing on the property where drug activity flourishes. Working with landlords/property owners, the team develops strategies and marshals resources to reduce drug activity.
The team has at its core the Municipal Code Compliance Division, the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office and the Building Inspections Division. It also can call on the resources of Community Services, Animal Care and Control, Community Development, JEA, Public Utilities, the Division of Alcoholic Beverages and Tobacco, the Division of Hotels and Restaurants, the Property Appriaser's Office, the Office of General Counsel, the Department of Children and Families, the Fire Marshall's office, and the State Attorney.
All property owners have an obligation to maintain properties in a way that fosters community pride and shows respect for all the residents. One neglected property on a block encourages deterioration which spreads rapidly through the surrounding area.
Landlord/property owner actions include
- bringing property up to code
- tenant screening
- cooperating with neighbors
- making physical improvements to the property
If a landlord/property owner is uncooperative, DART may apply Florida Public Nuisance Statute 823.05, which provides that buildings used for drug activities are public nuisances and damages may be recovered from the property owner.
While the City of Jacksonville and the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office are committed to controlling crime and preventing the resulting decline in property values, they cannot turn things around in Jacksonville without the active participation of property owners, tenants, and neighbors.
1) Landlords must learn to manage properties to prevent illegal activity and must make a commitment to immediate action when it begins.
2) Neighbors must learn to recognize signs of illegal activity and report it. Owners and neighbors are encouraged to work with DART to form Neighborhood Watch groups and become familiar with their neighborhoods.
3) The City of Jacksonville and the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office have intensified efforts aimed at drug house activities.
Property owners, whether they reside in or rent the property, have an obligation to the neighborhood where the property is located to ensure that the property is an asset to the community not a liability, enhancing not diminishing quality of life within the area. If we all work together, the majority of Jacksonville's neighborhoods which provide desirable living places will continue to do so, and troubled areas will become safe, family neighborhoods.
In consideration of the above, it appears that complaints were made against TSI by someone prior to the raid. All one has to do is call the DART Hotline. It could be anyone from a disgruntled employee or customer, concerned citizen, or business competitor.
By the way, De Real 'Ting Cafe was DART'ed last night (6/28). A DART and condemnation sign were taped to it's door early this morning.
strange that they would hit da real 'ting on a saturday night. fridays are their busy nights.
I posted this message to JSO's comments page this am... As a downtown resident, I'm writing to express my extreme displeasure with the drug raid conducted at TSI this friday last. I cannot express the frustration of living in a city with a paralyzing level of violent crime and watching taxpayer funds being wasted in this manner. Everyone at JSO knows that the element responsible for our epidemic of murders and carjackings is not hanging out at indie rock venues on Bay St. Not only is this an egregious waste of our money, it is also a real blow to efforts at building a vibrant downtown, since TSI will now be closed indefinitely despite the minescule amount of drugs found. I do congratulate you all on your succesful confiscation of one fake ID and a nickel bag of weed. I will sleep sounder in my bed knowing that 19 year old hipster and his $5 of marijuana are securely behind bars. Seriously, if you want to actually combat crime, I suggest raiding Da Real Ting- there you will find an ample supply of illegal weapons and narcotics. Then again, the crowd at TSI is so much less intimidating, no?
It looks like the JSO is hanging out and raiding the wrong spots. While TSI and Da Real Ting were getting raided, hookers were freely working the corners of Main Street with not a cop in sight.
Yeah not to mention the daily murder.
QuoteFoul play suspected in Jacksonville death
Posted: Sunday, June 29th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Residents of a Jacksonville neighborhood told police Sunday they heard gunfire several hours before the body of a man who lived nearby was found lying outside.
About 5 a.m., the body of Douglas Lucas Jr., 39, was found in the 400 block of Woodbine Street by a passerby, said homicide Sgt. Derrick Lewis of the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office. Lewis said Lucas’ last known address was in the 600 block of the same street.
Neighbors told police they heard gunfire in the area about 9 p.m. Saturday. Foul play is suspected, Lewis said.
So is this the hyped-up, all-problem-solving Jacksonville Journey in action? Utilizing a raid to shut down a couple of clubs and toss a 19-year-old in the clink for a little dope and a fake I.D., meanwhile the blood continues to flow down the city's gutters? Well brav-the-hell-O, Mayor! This is going to be the best year ever! I can feel it...
>:(
JSO's only solves 16.7% of reported crimes has over 1,000 unsolved murders.
QuoteToday, we understand that Jacksonville has over 1,000 unsolved cold case murders. Some of those killers may be contributing to our having Florida's highest per capita murder rate.
In addition to the large number of unsolved cold cases, we only resolve about 50 of the 100 new murders annually.
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/012706/opl_20925091.shtml
2007 Stats by County:
http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FSAC/UCR/2007/cnty_annual07.pdf
It looks like JSO increased their clear rate to 18.1% for 2007, unfortunately every single type of crime listed has increased. A 7.7% increase in the crime index.
Drugs and building code violations are not listed though.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2008, 09:54:53 PM
It looks like the JSO is hanging out and raiding the wrong spots. While TSI and Da Real Ting were getting raided, hookers were freely working the corners of Main Street with not a cop in sight.
JSO, DABT, Code Enforcement and the Fire Marshal most always are responding to complaints filed with them. Apparently, complaints against the clubs were lodged with at least one of these agencies.
If there are hookers on Main Street, and you see them, it is your civic duty to call the JSO and report the situation. The JSO will respond to every call it receives. If enough calls are logged concerning a certain address or activity, the JSO will effect a "raid". It is unlikely that the weekend's DART action was based on a single complaint about the targeted establishments.
Wow... someone sounds like a JSO cheerleader. I'm sure they are anxiously waiting to help out the community in need as they are flirting with women at local bars and nightclubs.
Quote from: Jerry Moran on June 29, 2008, 10:59:40 PM
If there are hookers on Main Street, and you see them, it is your civic duty to call the JSO and report the situation. The JSO will respond to every call it receives. If enough calls are logged concerning a certain address or activity, the JSO will effect a "raid". It is unlikely that the weekend's DART action was based on a single complaint about the targeted establishments.
Jerry, I live in this area and believe me, their are some of us that have JSO on speed dial just for this reason. Our problem is the lack of JSO response. THEY DO NOT RESPOND TO EVERY CALL CONCERNING PROSTITUTES!!!! This was brought up at out latest Shadco meeting to Asst. Chief Ross and his answer was that prostitution has always been here and always will and there is not much that JSO can do about it. LITERALLY.. One of the people in the group continuously asked Ross to stop telling us what JSO couldn't do for us and tell us what they can do and Ross had nothing.. We have done everything possible to help the JSO with this problem and they continuously drop the ball. According to Ross, these flatbacks have to go somewhere. So Springfield is being used for a containment area. He did say that he has asked the only 4 Vice squad (in all of Jax) officers to try to work on this. We have gone out and walked the streets at night and chased them off until JSO asked us to stop and let them handle it. Nice Job JSO!!! We had it to a minimum and now that JSO has "taken care of it" it's back to a maximum. Jerry, please don't give out false info, the police don't respond to every call about prostitutes, we have proven it. I personally know someone who calls JSO no less than 4-5 times a day to report the prostitutes. If they truly will act if there is enough calls for a certain area then this area should've been targeted a long time ago...
Quote from: Jerry Moran on June 29, 2008, 10:59:40 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2008, 09:54:53 PM
It looks like the JSO is hanging out and raiding the wrong spots. While TSI and Da Real Ting were getting raided, hookers were freely working the corners of Main Street with not a cop in sight.
JSO, DABT, Code Enforcement and the Fire Marshal most always are responding to complaints filed with them. Apparently, complaints against the clubs were lodged with at least one of these agencies.
If there are hookers on Main Street, and you see them, it is your civic duty to call the JSO and report the situation. The JSO will respond to every call it receives. If enough calls are logged concerning a certain address or activity, the JSO will effect a "raid". It is unlikely that the weekend's DART action was based on a single complaint about the targeted establishments.
So if I complain about the code violations at the courthouse across the street from TSI they will raid and condemn that building also??
So Stephen, you think that real (potentially dangerous for all we know) code violations in public bars and clubs should be overlooked because the places are "cool"? There have been a long string of nightclub disasters in the US and internationally going back decades which indicates that perhaps a little caution is in order for these type establishments.
BTW, dont get me wrong. I am not opposed to people going to bars.
Quote from: RiversideGator on June 30, 2008, 11:36:25 AM
So Stephen, you think that real (potentially dangerous for all we know) code violations in public bars and clubs should be overlooked because the places are "cool"? There have been a long string of nightclub disasters in the US and internationally going back decades which indicates that perhaps a little caution is in order for these type establishments.
BTW, dont get me wrong. I am not opposed to people going to bars.
Yeah, while I hate what happened to TSI, and think it's a misapplied use of funds, I think about what would've happened at the Milk Bar around '96-'99 if a fire broke out during a packed show-- anyone who was there can attest to the the fact that there would've probably been 100s of dead.
Code enforcement is a big deal.
It's not that they enforced codes at the place, because obviously, safety is a good thing. It's how they went about doing it. Why can't the fire marshall go in there himself - why all the shakedown and drama? To send a message? Message received: Murder all you want but have a baggie of weed on you, a fake ID or some faulty electrical work and incur the wrath of the JSO.
Regarding the hookers...someone is getting arrested because all those pictures they print in the victim's advocate are coming from somewhere. I have personally witnessed sting operations on Phillips before. It blew me away the number of people being arrested. And don't always assume that the hooker you see on the street is just a hooker. Some of them are cops.
Lastly, I am not defending what JSO did (or fails to do daily) but it's wrong to come down on beat cops about the raid and the responses to hooker calls. I've said this before but most of those guys just to what their told without thinking about it much. You have to look at who is in charge and who spearheads these things. It's highly doubtful that the raid(s) were initiated because of "hotline tips" only. That would be ridiculous.
Quote from: stephendare on June 30, 2008, 11:55:58 AM
Quote from: RiversideGator on June 30, 2008, 11:36:25 AM
So Stephen, you think that real (potentially dangerous for all we know) code violations in public bars and clubs should be overlooked because the places are "cool"? There have been a long string of nightclub disasters in the US and internationally going back decades which indicates that perhaps a little caution is in order for these type establishments.
BTW, dont get me wrong. I am not opposed to people going to bars.
Actually this would be the opposite of everything I have ever stated in public or private regarding public safety, and quite a leap, which Im naturally unsurprised that you were able to make.
Wouldnt you like to suggest nominating me as the Vice President of Free Love while you are at it?
However, code enforcement is an ongoing process that does not require night time 'raids' embarrassing a place and intimidating its customers in order to be implemented.
TSI has multiple exits and I would invite you to visit the foot thick concrete walls of the tunnel and outdoor courtyard that comprises the majority of the club in order to see how unlikely a flash fire is inside the space.
Ryan Rummell, the owner of the club and a longtime downtown activist, not to mention the original creator of the gallery crawl that became the Art Walk, is also a faux finisher.
The solid plaster backed by concrete walls of the interior exceed the fire rating of the double stacked 3/4 inch drywall which is the standard 'firewall' asked for by new building code.
Ryan left that plaster intact and faux finished the surfaces to look like wood panelling and other surfaces. Even a trained eye would be fooled until one ran a finger over the surfaces.
The club was busted for a few extension cords (absolutely illegal under code for a business---my business partner John used to make me crazy with their use. He finally started hiding them from me so that I would stop throwing all extension cords into the trash.) Some minor electrical work that while done to code was not done with a permit, and the new provision to build a newly required 'firewall', despite the safety of the current situation.
In addition, River, the raid was conducted in the most terrifying manner possible, with men in black masks and visible firearms. I don't know about you, but this would be some country indeed if ALL our code enforcement issues were backed up by stormtroopers.
Although perhaps Springfield and Firestone Avenue would be much more pristine today if it were.
The very fact that Ryan and Jason have run a nightclub for four years that by its definition includes alcohol and young people without a single incident is itself a testament to the personal responsibility and caution to both these guys and their customers (of which there are quite a number on this board who post)
Code Enforcement is a big deal, and believe me when I tell you that I always welcomed the code guys. They really are just there to ensure safety and you have to appreciate that mission.
But this incident obviously wasnt about that.
Surely it would have been cheaper to simply send a couple of undercover guys in to check the place out just to bust a sickly half joint of cheap marijuana.
I agree with Stephen here... If code enforcement was all they were doing they could have done it in the daytime or just as they opened. I believe they can also isue a "fix it" ticket where the owner or manager can clear up the violation in 15 or 30 days. That would be the proper way to "work with businesses"...
QuoteThis is not a good way for the police department to build trust and relationships with the community.
Great point. But look who's in charge. The way things are run here remind a little of The Wire.
Quote from: stephendare on June 30, 2008, 12:56:46 PM
Quote from: thebrokenforum on June 30, 2008, 12:18:32 PM
QuoteThis is not a good way for the police department to build trust and relationships with the community.
Great point. But look who's in charge. The way things are run here remind a little of The Wire.
Ive got a call in to Sheriff Rutherford. Hes quite bright incidentally. A welcome change from the stereotype. But this oppositional relationship with nightlife is counterproductive.
And yeah, I totally get The Wire similarity.
I know we would be interested in what he has to say about the incident...
Incredible. So let me get this right the hipsters lose their place of fun, but the yuppies keep theirs??
Ninja Turtles are still turtles even when they have weapons.
I am so glad I don't have to put up with this crap anymore. Sorry to hear this yall.
When you're referring to "Yuppies" I'm assuming you're talking about Mark's and Dive Bar. I really don't see how you can make a point about it being the type of crowd they were targeting, when the crowd at TSI and Real Ting is pretty much the total opposite of each other. Who's to say that Mark's and Dive Bar wasn't 'checked' in similar fashion? But I do agree that there's probably something more to it than just "Hey, let's go check for building code violations on a Friday night." That in itself is sketchy. I just don't see how there's this "initiative" about encouraging entertainment venues to open downtown and the "Make a Scene Downtown" (which is funny now that I think about it), when the raids of these venues largely come off as not being for any good reason.
Quote from: comncense on June 30, 2008, 01:48:41 PM
When you're referring to "Yuppies" I'm assuming you're talking about Mark's and Dive Bar. I really don't see how you can make a point about it being the type of crowd they were targeting, when the crowd at TSI and Real Ting is pretty much the total opposite of each other. Who's to say that Mark's and Dive Bar wasn't 'checked' in similar fashion? But I do agree that there's probably something more to it than just "Hey, let's go check for building code violations on a Friday night." That in itself is sketchy. I just don't see how there's this "initiative" about encouraging entertainment venues to open downtown and the "Make a Scene Downtown" (which is funny now that I think about it), when the raids of these venues largely come off as not being for any good reason.
mark's and dive bar were not checked in the same manner. i'm sure we would hear about storm troopers filing into them. while TSI and Da Real Ting don't cater to the same crowds, they do both cater to groups that many would like to see leave downtown. if you aren't white and in an ill-fitting button down, they don't want you there.
Quotemark's and dive bar were not checked in the same manner. i'm sure we would hear about storm troopers filing into them. while TSI and Da Real Ting don't cater to the same crowds, they do both cater to groups that many would like to see leave downtown. if you aren't white and in an ill-fitting button down, they don't want you there.
Does Jacksonville really want a real entertainment district, which is what all the money dumped into Bay Street was meant to attract? Nightlife districts spring up organically with a lot of diversity in who they cater too. If Bay is to get to that point, non-yuppified establishments should be encouraged to become a part of the scene.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 30, 2008, 02:54:47 PM
Quotemark's and dive bar were not checked in the same manner. i'm sure we would hear about storm troopers filing into them. while TSI and Da Real Ting don't cater to the same crowds, they do both cater to groups that many would like to see leave downtown. if you aren't white and in an ill-fitting button down, they don't want you there.
Does Jacksonville really want a real entertainment district, which is what all the money dumped into Bay Street was meant to attract? Nightlife districts spring up organically with a lot of diversity in who they cater too. If Bay is to get to that point, non-yuppified establishments should be encouraged to become a part of the scene.
As usual, couldn't agree more. I'd love to see Atlanta's Vortex or something similar open up on Bay Street.
Quote from: JoeMerchant on June 30, 2008, 03:01:41 PM
As usual, couldn't agree more. I'd love to see Atlanta's Vortex or something similar open up on Bay Street.
Ahhh we can dream. I honestly don't see that happening here. It's a shame. We should start making a "When Pigs Fly" list.
I could only imagine what would happen if the Vortex came to town and wanted approval to put the skull up on a building.
(http://fastermustache.org/gallery2/gallery/26377-2/Vortex.JPG)
(http://thebigrockcandymountain.com/new_images/vortex.jpg)
Dork's and Douche Bar probably weren't checked because they have big money backers behind them and the spaces themselves were probably more updated and up-to-code than TSI.
So I guess the lesson here is to (1) keep your establishment up to code and (2) try not to attract the crowds which might be carrying and/or selling drugs. If you do these 2 seemingly obvious things, I bet the cops and the City will not mess with you.
Quote from: RiversideGator on June 30, 2008, 04:11:15 PM
So I guess the lesson here is to (1) keep your establishment up to code and (2) try not to attract the crowds which might be carrying and/or selling drugs. If you do these 2 seemingly obvious things, I bet the cops and the City will not mess with you.
The Florida Theater is totally f'd....
Quote from: thelakelander on June 30, 2008, 03:22:18 PM
I could only imagine what would happen if the Vortex came to town and wanted approval to put the skull up on a building.
What if it was all beige stucco, though?
Quote from: RiversideGator on June 30, 2008, 04:11:15 PM
So I guess the lesson here is to (1) keep your establishment up to code and (2) try not to attract the crowds which might be carrying and/or selling drugs. If you do these 2 seemingly obvious things, I bet the cops and the City will not mess with you.
Or be a high profile VIP in this city.
Quote from: stephendare on June 30, 2008, 04:13:25 PM
ok. I just got off the phone with the Sheriff's Office. Not the Sheriff himself, but his very capable spokeswoman.
JSO was hoping to clear up the nature of their involvement in the raid.
It was not a raid led by the JSO, nor did it arise from any of their internal processes.
JSO is responsible for the DART program, but DART did not initiate the program either.
The entire raid was organized by the State Alcoholic Beverages Department who asked DART and the Fire Inspector to join in the raid.
The point was made very clear during the discussion that it would be important to find out who is leading the raid(s)----(I brought up the string of closings) and that they were not led nor initiated by JSO.
She did express that DART found 18 violations (most of them extremely minor--a roof leak, unpainted areas, electrical wiring unpermitted, extension cords, charging door cover at the front tunnel, etc...)
The Fire Marshall's office is the one who made the unsafe structure determination. At issue is the removal of a firewall in order to install a door. The door itself was a 2 thousand dollar installation approved and suggested by the fire department. In fact, apparently the very inspector who approved the door's installation is the one who determined it to be non code.
The Department of ABT (the State liscensing board) is who initiated the raid.
NOT JSO.
I did ask her what the hell was up with the masks etc.
She had no idea who might have been wearing them. But if anyone wants to forward photos of the event, she will be glad to identify what department they come from.
Is it common practice for the State Alcoholic Beverages Department to conduct raids?
Is it common practice to conduct raids in conjunction with the fire marshal and DART??
Is it common practice for JSO to accompany these types of visits??
Something still doesnt smell right...
Quote from: konstantconsumer on June 30, 2008, 02:21:20 PM
Quote from: comncense on June 30, 2008, 01:48:41 PM
When you're referring to "Yuppies" I'm assuming you're talking about Mark's and Dive Bar. I really don't see how you can make a point about it being the type of crowd they were targeting, when the crowd at TSI and Real Ting is pretty much the total opposite of each other. Who's to say that Mark's and Dive Bar wasn't 'checked' in similar fashion? But I do agree that there's probably something more to it than just "Hey, let's go check for building code violations on a Friday night." That in itself is sketchy. I just don't see how there's this "initiative" about encouraging entertainment venues to open downtown and the "Make a Scene Downtown" (which is funny now that I think about it), when the raids of these venues largely come off as not being for any good reason.
mark's and dive bar were not checked in the same manner. i'm sure we would hear about storm troopers filing into them. while TSI and Da Real Ting don't cater to the same crowds, they do both cater to groups that many would like to see leave downtown. if you aren't white and in an ill-fitting button down, they don't want you there.
Is it necessary to classify the crowds into hipsters/yuppies/white/button down etc?? Cmon down to artwalk and you will see all these folks getting along and having fun. Been to all those places including TSI... not exactly my scene but been there done that and had a great time. Are we still classifying people before we get to know em??
Quote from: stephendare on June 30, 2008, 04:33:25 PM
Yes to all three.
And yes something doesnt smell right.
It boils down to the reasons and motivations of the organizing party and the reasons and motivations of the complainants.
OK... but if the answer is yes to all three then it doesnt smell as bad as it did this morning... at least to me.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 30, 2008, 04:37:25 PM
Quote from: konstantconsumer on June 30, 2008, 02:21:20 PM
Quote from: comncense on June 30, 2008, 01:48:41 PM
When you're referring to "Yuppies" I'm assuming you're talking about Mark's and Dive Bar. I really don't see how you can make a point about it being the type of crowd they were targeting, when the crowd at TSI and Real Ting is pretty much the total opposite of each other. Who's to say that Mark's and Dive Bar wasn't 'checked' in similar fashion? But I do agree that there's probably something more to it than just "Hey, let's go check for building code violations on a Friday night." That in itself is sketchy. I just don't see how there's this "initiative" about encouraging entertainment venues to open downtown and the "Make a Scene Downtown" (which is funny now that I think about it), when the raids of these venues largely come off as not being for any good reason.
mark's and dive bar were not checked in the same manner. i'm sure we would hear about storm troopers filing into them. while TSI and Da Real Ting don't cater to the same crowds, they do both cater to groups that many would like to see leave downtown. if you aren't white and in an ill-fitting button down, they don't want you there.
Is it necessary to classify the crowds into hipsters/yuppies/white/button down etc?? Cmon down to artwalk and you will see all these folks getting along and having fun. Been to all those places including TSI... not exactly my scene but been there done that and had a great time. Are we still classifying people before we get to know em??
if you want to make the walk past mark's and dive bar on the way to TSI dressed in anything but tommy bahamia, and check out the looks you get, or stop by for a shot at dive bar, be my guest. you'll see who it is causing the trouble. i'm sure you'd love being called fag for wearing clothes not bought at the big and tall store.
Quote from: konstantconsumer on June 30, 2008, 04:50:53 PM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on June 30, 2008, 04:37:25 PM
Quote from: konstantconsumer on June 30, 2008, 02:21:20 PM
Quote from: comncense on June 30, 2008, 01:48:41 PM
When you're referring to "Yuppies" I'm assuming you're talking about Mark's and Dive Bar. I really don't see how you can make a point about it being the type of crowd they were targeting, when the crowd at TSI and Real Ting is pretty much the total opposite of each other. Who's to say that Mark's and Dive Bar wasn't 'checked' in similar fashion? But I do agree that there's probably something more to it than just "Hey, let's go check for building code violations on a Friday night." That in itself is sketchy. I just don't see how there's this "initiative" about encouraging entertainment venues to open downtown and the "Make a Scene Downtown" (which is funny now that I think about it), when the raids of these venues largely come off as not being for any good reason.
Then I guess some Jacksonville are not as hip and progressive as they think they are eh...?
mark's and dive bar were not checked in the same manner. i'm sure we would hear about storm troopers filing into them. while TSI and Da Real Ting don't cater to the same crowds, they do both cater to groups that many would like to see leave downtown. if you aren't white and in an ill-fitting button down, they don't want you there.
Is it necessary to classify the crowds into hipsters/yuppies/white/button down etc?? Cmon down to artwalk and you will see all these folks getting along and having fun. Been to all those places including TSI... not exactly my scene but been there done that and had a great time. Are we still classifying people before we get to know em??
if you want to make the walk past mark's and dive bar on the way to TSI dressed in anything but tommy bahamia, and check out the looks you get, or stop by for a shot at dive bar, be my guest. you'll see who it is causing the trouble. i'm sure you'd love being called fag for wearing clothes not bought at the big and tall store.
Then I guess some in Jacksonville arent as hip and progressive as they think they are eh...?
I dont disagree... but until I or someone else displays this loutish behaivior it might be fun to say Hi and share a drink with em... ya might have some fun.
Quote from: stephendare on June 30, 2008, 05:00:26 PM
Just for the sake of literalism. It is very amusing to think of a bridge troll being called a fag. I suppose it would stand to reason that they would shop at the big and tall store.
I do have to say, that whenever there is any type of scuffle on Bay Street, it usually results from the loutish behavior of taxidermologically tanned meatheads who think that indie rhymes with gay.
Maybe I don't notice what you're talking about because I look and dress like your typical prepster, but looks can be deceiving and it works both ways. I've gone to Jackrabbits dressed as I normally do and I've gotten some pretty spiteful looks. The funny thing is, I was going to the Milk Bar all the time when I was a youngin, still listen to the music and still try to see all the shows I can. The people that really give a rat's ass about what others are wearing do have issues, but these people can typically be ignored. Don't forget though, it works both ways.
Quote from: stephendare on June 30, 2008, 04:14:50 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on June 30, 2008, 04:11:15 PM
So I guess the lesson here is to (1) keep your establishment up to code and (2) try not to attract the crowds which might be carrying and/or selling drugs. If you do these 2 seemingly obvious things, I bet the cops and the City will not mess with you.
And River, considering that you apparently do a little criminal defense, and inhabit a downtown (and therefore aging building) location, I doubt you would pass the same test.
If only one kid out of several hundred people was 'carrying and/or selling drugs, thats a hell of a lot better than a private high school, or for that matter a PTA meeting in Baymeadows.
1) My building is not that old and is up to code as far as I know;
2) I typically have no more than a few clients at a time rather than 100 or more inside a small space so it isnt exactly the same thing in terms of life safety;
Quote from: stephendare on June 30, 2008, 05:39:24 PM
Bet you stuff could be found code wise, and apparently all you need is 1 (one) customer with a half joint in their pocket. Not hundreds.
the amazing this was that i was actually really impressed that there was only one kid with a fake id and a joint. that's a very impressive thing, i think. i would challenge anyone to go to another club and find less than that!
to get back on topic.
All of this nonsense with code violation nonsense is complete bull. The state, with active cooperation from local agencies, is actively targeting popular gay hangouts all over the place and they have been for quite sometime. I would not be surprised at all if the Pearl and Norm were hit within a few weeks time. I went to Gainesville for the weekend and was informed of TSI's raid, and my friends told me a few stories. Just recently the ABT raided two clubs in Gainseville, both popular with the gay community, and shut them down for "code violations" as well; however, no other clubs in the area were shut down, and nothing was down to combat the post-closing time violence that occurs regularly. I'll be honest, as a young gay male, it is quite annoying when the only places I feel safe being myself are closed, and I end up having to endanger myself by going to bars with a disproportionate number of people who are intolerant and generally aggresssive when under the influence. It becomes not only an issue of comfort, but also one of safety. With Park Place, Metro, Incahoots, TSI and various other locations being targeted, it is only a matter of time before the lack of business really starts to impact their business. I won't comment on the incident at De Real Ting, but suffice it to say they serve a rather marginalized clientelle as well, and therefore fit the bill for a targeted business.
It really illustrates a disturbing trend in state politics that is increasingly becoming intolerant towards all those people that do not fit the mold exactly, e.g. Amendment 2. I only hope The city understands the contributions of these marginalized groups to the stability of the community at large before its too late, and starts refusing to allow the state to destroy viable businesses.
TSI was a gay bar? i never knew this. also, I have been to the Pearl a few times and never knew it was a gay bar/club as well. then again, i never claimed to know everything, lol!
They're not "gay bars" but they are more gay friendly than say the Ritz, Ocean Club, Marks, Dive, or Ocean Club. They're also more fay friendly than just about any other regular joint in the five county area. Although The Advocate would claim Jax is one the top 5 gay friendly cities in the country, there is still a lot of animosity towards non-heterosexual individuals, and a lot of intolerance for any sort of public display of "non-normal" behaviors.
Quote from: chris on July 01, 2008, 10:41:42 AM
They're not "gay bars" but they are more gay friendly than say the Ritz, Ocean Club, Marks, Dive, or Ocean Club. They're also more fay friendly than just about any other regular joint in the five county area. Although The Advocate would claim Jax is one the top 5 gay friendly cities in the country, there is still a lot of animosity towards non-heterosexual individuals, and a lot of intolerance for any sort of public display of "non-normal" behaviors.
While I have absolute empathy for you, to say that TSI was "targeted" because it's a gay bar, or because gay people go there, is pretty unbelievable to me-- and not 'unbelievable' as in 'how could they?!', but 'unbelievable' as in 'i don't believe that is true'.
While I will admit my post sounds a bit like a conspiracy theory, I maintain my sentiment. While many clubs that target so called "minority" populations tend to be in rather unkempt conditions, and it is quite possible this is why they are being cited for code violations, I do not think that is why they are "raiding" these places. By the response from our boys in blue, you would think the mafia had set up shop at these locations.
Maybe the talk of a "Gay Mafia" isn't a bunch of gossip?
The biggest factor influencing my opinion is that other bars, catering to a more mainstream clientele have not been raided for narcotic substances that I have seen floating around. The authorities really shouldn't be as concerned with minor drug usage as they should the increasing usage rates of substances like cocaine, ecstasy, and other dangerous compounds. As for the code violations, while the more mainstream locations are less likely to have them, it does not substantiate why the ABT felt it necessary to raid while the bars were open for business. Why not during the day with actual building inspectors? And the list goes on...
I understand your disbelief Eazy, but I am not dissuaded from my original opinion.
Quote from: Driven1 on July 01, 2008, 10:35:30 AM
TSI was a gay bar? i never knew this. also, I have been to the Pearl a few times and never knew it was a gay bar/club as well. then again, i never claimed to know everything, lol!
not a gay bar, but a bar with a high number of gay clientele.
It's easy to see the "Mark's" crowd and the "TSI" crowd in this forum. Ha.
I go to both Mark's and TSI regularly. But then again, I'm comfortable in most settings. But I never considered Mark's to be Ocean Club'ish as far as the crowd goes. Personally I think you should be able to go out wherever you want to and have fun. Stop worrying about what everyone around you may or may not be whispering about you. There's going to be a couple of a$$holes in pretty much any venue you go to.
Quote from: comncense on July 01, 2008, 01:21:10 PM
I go to both Mark's and TSI regularly. But then again, I'm comfortable in most settings. But I never considered Mark's to be Ocean Club'ish as far as the crowd goes. Personally I think you should be able to go out wherever you want to and have fun. Stop worrying about what everyone around you may or may not be whispering about you. There's going to be a couple of a$$holes in pretty much any venue you go to.
THis is true, and I am mostly on your wavelength, but Mark's-- the patrons, not the owners or operators-- has been, in my experience, very aggressive in this area. I walked up to the line one night with my wife and some friends, and immediately some fat chick made some snide comment on my sweater; several other times, I have walked past on my way to TSI and had people laugh or make loud, rude comments, and all i ever wear is jeans and a t-shirt, it's not like i was wearing something that invited ridicule. In general, Mark's could blow down in a hurricane for all I care, that place sucks.
Quote from: stephendare on July 01, 2008, 02:28:59 PM
Quote
THis is true, and I am mostly on your wavelength, but Mark's-- the patrons, not the owners or operators-- has been, in my experience, very aggressive in this area. I walked up to the line one night with my wife and some friends, and immediately some fat chick made some snide comment on my sweater; several other times, I have walked past on my way to TSI and had people laugh or make loud, rude comments, and all i ever wear is jeans and a t-shirt, it's not like i was wearing something that invited ridicule. In general, Mark's could blow down in a hurricane for all I care, that place sucks.
Well I for one, have sat several nights with Veronica or John or a few others and made derisive comments about orange foundation and buttshorts as the cattle passed by TSI as well, so I hope it gets you some justice for the sweater remarks. (those bitches)
lol.
Anyways.
I just got off the phone with Ryan Rummel, one of the two owners of TSI.
Yesterday afternoon they met with the city to go over the various code enforcement issues outlined in the complaint.
Ryan and Jason lease the property from a local attorney, so much of what the complaint contained is the responsibility of the property owner rather than theirs. Details like the roof leak, and the upstairs floors etc (see river, old buildings often have code violations even when they are owned by perfectly respectable attorneys) are things which the landlord should address.
The rest of it was simply a matter of having their general contractor on site to meet with the city guys in order to implement the updates and upgrades called for.
The only glitch is that their landlord is on a sailboat out over the ocean somewhere and completely unreachable by anything except trained carrier pigeon, which the boys lacked the foresight to have on standby.
In all, the work will take a couple of weeks and will cost the boys upwards of 60 thousand in lost sales and of course another 20 thousand in contracting.
One interesting sidenote. A primary focus of the 'raid' was the fact that the guys have a doorman at the entrance of the tunnel. Apparently when dinosaurs roamed the earth, that old tunnel was an emergency services alley. Meaning that the police horses at the turn of the century were led down that alley and fed and watered in the back, where the patio bar is presently standing empty.
In modern times, of course, it is a blind alley. There is no thruway for either horse or vehicle. Either of those creatures, once they entered would only be able to exit back through the front.
Interestingly they were cited for blocking an emergency services tunnel, leading speculation that it must have been a specific complaint levied against the earnest young men.
What ancient, mummified wreck of a killjoy is old enough to have remembered the original use of that tunnel, and even more, mean enough to report it as as complaint?
Amazing... would TSI's doorman try to stop a police horse??? Make the cop pay a cover? Make the firemen take off their hats??
:D :D :D
Yeah, i didn't mean to sound like a whiny bitch about my sweater, but: 1) I was dressed nicely and fashionably, and my wife is beautiful so we were looking the Mark's part, and that fat cow had no room to be talking shit about anyone, and 2) the people at Mark's are, for the most part, the worst, whitest-dressing, no-sense-of-what's-cool dipshits, so they have no room to be LOUDLY talking shit about what anyone wears.
I agree stephen. Bay Street ended up being my favorite place to hang out in Jacksonville. Great Hotdogs there too. ;D
Quote from: thelakelander on June 30, 2008, 03:22:18 PM
I could only imagine what would happen if the Vortex came to town and wanted approval to put the skull up on a building.
(http://fastermustache.org/gallery2/gallery/26377-2/Vortex.JPG)
(http://thebigrockcandymountain.com/new_images/vortex.jpg)
LOL one of the cool spots in the OTHER 5 Points!! They got this pizza joint a few shops down called Savage Pizza I go there all the time. Inman Park is cool neighborhood!! A Vortex in Riverside would be cool as hell man!! They could put it at the corner of Lomax and Park Street. Awesomeness
Yeah, overall, I agree Stephen: Why? Why armed men in ski masks? Why attack what is becoming an actual viable space in downtown, an actual "area" or "scene" or "destination" that Bay street was/is becoming?
Quote from: Coolyfett on July 01, 2008, 04:30:15 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 30, 2008, 03:22:18 PM
I could only imagine what would happen if the Vortex came to town and wanted approval to put the skull up on a building.
(http://fastermustache.org/gallery2/gallery/26377-2/Vortex.JPG)
(http://thebigrockcandymountain.com/new_images/vortex.jpg)
LOL one of the cool spots in the OTHER 5 Points!! They got this pizza joint a few shops down called Savage Pizza I go there all the time. Inman Park is cool neighborhood!! A Vortex in Riverside would be cool as hell man!! They could put it at the corner of Lomax and Park Street. Awesomeness
Ahhh yes, the LITTLE five points, that's like 5 times bigger than ours.
The vortex, variety playhouse, that one cool bar next to variety that reminds me of shanty! Plus they have a pretty chill irish pub right around the corner, oh oh and a place that sells jesus action figures!
::plans weekend trip to atlanta::