:-\
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2016/01/27/sam-mousa-no-investments-for-downtown-until.html
Doesn't this seem very shortsighted? It's kind of like saying you can't have a cookie until you eat your plate of brussel sprouts. This seems like an easy excuse for not doing anything. Just blame it on pension reform. If Curry's bill in the legislature isn't approved, then what?
Damn people wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lenny Curry does not give a damn about downtown Jacksonville.
What kind of proof do you need?
I don't get it. Didn't Brown spend about 4 years trying to reform the pension issues and didn't he run a re-election campaign that consisted of him claiming pension reform was one of his big accomplishments? I seem to remember that claim. What exactly did Brown accomplish on this subject and how many thousands of hours were wasted on getting nothing done. Seems like Curry pretty much started over figuring it all out.
Seems prudent to me; first things first. He gets what he wants from the Legislature, then uses this pronouncement to get the necessary movement locally for the issue to be resolved -- then move forward with other matters.
[Shad, you good? Great. I gotta go be mayor now and make a statement.]
Now it's time for pension reform.
No 'more' downtown investments from the city until we figure this shitshow out.
Next thing you know he'll invite "The Donald" in to make a deal.
Rattler Gator, don't hold your breath.
It's a shortsighted approach. Revitalizing downtown increases property values which in turn increases taxes. Unless the City is stupid and puts more money into the Shipyards, for example, than the actual developer and gets no return because they also give Khan a rev grant.
Does this mean the Trio is DOA?
Quote from: CCMjax on January 27, 2016, 08:46:58 PM
I don't get it. Didn't Brown spend about 4 years trying to reform the pension issues and didn't he run a re-election campaign that consisted of him claiming pension reform was one of his big accomplishments? I seem to remember that claim. What exactly did Brown accomplish on this subject and how many thousands of hours were wasted on getting nothing done. Seems like Curry pretty much started over figuring it all out.
Thanks for asking. What Mayor Brown and our team accomplished was a comprehensive pension reform agreement between the City of Jacksonville (COJ) and the Police and Fire Pension Fund (PFPF) which was projected to save taxpayers more than $1.5 billion. The agreement modified benefits for both current and future employees, established stringent new accountability and transparency reforms for the PFPF, returned negotiations over pension benefits to collective bargaining, and provided a framework for the COJ and PFPF to work together in paying down the fund's unfunded pension liability.
Pension reform is critical for the City's financial future and efforts to achieve it have spanned multiple administrations. Mayor Peyton launched the effort, Mayor Brown achieved the above-referenced comprehensive agreement, and Mayor Curry has now taken the next step in advocating a funding method for addressing the unfunded liability. All of them deserve credit for their attention to this challenge.
Below are some clips about the comprehensive pension reform agreement that was enacted on June 19, 2015. Please do not hesitate to let me know if you have questions or need more information.
http://www.coj.net/welcome/news/mayor,-pension-board-accomplish-historic-reform.aspx
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2015-06-19/story/major-jacksonville-pension-reform-bill-gets-green-light
http://floridapolitics.com/archives/185271-lenny-curry-on-jax-pension-deal-a-tremendous-step
Quote from: thelakelander on January 27, 2016, 09:56:24 PM
Does this mean the Trio is DOA?
Spoke with some people from the design team the other day and they had a meeting on it yesterday. Not sure what came out of it.
I'm having a hard time understanding the "no investments for downtown: concept. How about "no investments for all of Jacksonville" until this is ironed out. Why punish downtown, an area that is in desperate need of an economic boost? Does the ban on investing include any other area? Or am I misunderstanding the article?
I don't understand. When the pension issue was first mentioned (back in like 2008), I understood it to mean that the city contributed each year and another portion was covered by the assumption that the investments would appreciate to increase the total pension fund value. This worked fine until the market crashed and took out all of that capital appreciation and then some, which the city had to cover in order to honor its obligation.
Since that time, the market has more than recovered. Unless we pulled our investments at the bottom (the worst thing you can do), and then reinvested at the top (the second worst thing you can do), I don't understand why millions or billions haven't been added back into the fund due to the market recovering.
What am I missing?
Quote from: MusicMan on January 28, 2016, 09:00:27 AM
I'm having a hard time understanding the "no investments for downtown: concept. How about "no investments for all of Jacksonville" until this is ironed out. Why punish downtown, an area that is in desperate need of an economic boost? Does the ban on investing include any other area? Or am I misunderstanding the article?
That might be the approach. Mousa was speaking at a DIA meeting, so Downtown was the relevant topic. Plus, Mousa has a reputation for being blunt and not giving the polished, politician answer.
To some degree, it sounds like semantics. Millions will obviously be spent at EverBank Field and the courthouse parking lot site, regardless of the pension situation.
Quote from: Chris Hand on January 28, 2016, 12:31:37 AM
Quote from: CCMjax on January 27, 2016, 08:46:58 PM
I don't get it. Didn't Brown spend about 4 years trying to reform the pension issues and didn't he run a re-election campaign that consisted of him claiming pension reform was one of his big accomplishments? I seem to remember that claim. What exactly did Brown accomplish on this subject and how many thousands of hours were wasted on getting nothing done. Seems like Curry pretty much started over figuring it all out.
Thanks for asking. What Mayor Brown and our team accomplished was a comprehensive pension reform agreement between the City of Jacksonville (COJ) and the Police and Fire Pension Fund (PFPF) which was projected to save taxpayers more than $1.5 billion. The agreement modified benefits for both current and future employees, established stringent new accountability and transparency reforms for the PFPF, returned negotiations over pension benefits to collective bargaining, and provided a framework for the COJ and PFPF to work together in paying down the fund's unfunded pension liability.
Pension reform is critical for the City's financial future and efforts to achieve it have spanned multiple administrations. Mayor Peyton launched the effort, Mayor Brown achieved the above-referenced comprehensive agreement, and Mayor Curry has now taken the next step in advocating a funding method for addressing the unfunded liability. All of them deserve credit for their attention to this challenge.
Below are some clips about the comprehensive pension reform agreement that was enacted on June 19, 2015. Please do not hesitate to let me know if you have questions or need more information.
http://www.coj.net/welcome/news/mayor,-pension-board-accomplish-historic-reform.aspx
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2015-06-19/story/major-jacksonville-pension-reform-bill-gets-green-light
http://floridapolitics.com/archives/185271-lenny-curry-on-jax-pension-deal-a-tremendous-step
Thank you for clarifying.
From what I understand, they're talking about investments that come out of the general budget, not stuff that comes from other sources. So, for instance, they'll probably go ahead with things like Liberty Street/courthouse lot even if the project is ready before the pension plan comes through. And it won't be just Downtown.
I don't like it, but it's a real concern. The city's budget is hard pressed due to the fact that we have to pay around $150 million year to pay down the pension. However, things seem to be going smoothly for the current plan, and there are potential backups as well.
What's the plan to sustain things long term? In my view, the more we continue to spread our public resources across +700 square miles, without dramatically increasing density, the more budgetary problems future generations will face.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 28, 2016, 09:28:52 AM
I don't understand. When the pension issue was first mentioned (back in like 2008), I understood it to mean that the city contributed each year and another portion was covered by the assumption that the investments would appreciate to increase the total pension fund value. This worked fine until the market crashed and took out all of that capital appreciation and then some, which the city had to cover in order to honor its obligation.
Since that time, the market has more than recovered. Unless we pulled our investments at the bottom (the worst thing you can do), and then reinvested at the top (the second worst thing you can do), I don't understand why millions or billions haven't been added back into the fund due to the market recovering.
What am I missing?
The pension payments look at projections not just for one year, but decades in the future. When the economy is up, things look good, and there was a tendency to underpay every year, and add additional benefits. Unfortunately, that meant that when the recession happened, we had to pay even more, even as the city budget shrank. Without dedicated revenue going into the pension (ie, a tax), it has to come out of the general budget. That's where we are now - we're so far in that even with a good economy we'll just be treading water.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 28, 2016, 11:56:16 AM
What's the plan to sustain things long term? In my view, the more we continue to spread our public resources across +700 square miles, without dramatically increasing density, the more budgetary problems future generations will face.
That particular problem isn't any different here than in other places. It's just spread between different governments in other places (county and city/cities). The pension issue, though, is something we haven't addressed in far too long.
^It's definitely not unique. I'm wondering if there is an actual plan to deal with the problem long term because it has a direct impact on the pension situation, IMO.
They are just focusing on this until session is over. I have no problem with that. Like Lake said though, they are still dealing with Liberty and are working to get the Everbank renovations done.
All of this will be resolved, only in the event of my departure.
Never no good news from my City. Someone or something is always holding it back. We got the old guard southern stiff necks out of the way and now its something else. ALL major Florida cities seem to be moving forward except for BIG JAX. Check out what St. Petersburg is doing now...MOVING FORWARD. Same with Tampa, Miami and Orlando...and not in any order. What...is...the...problem? I want to know! I understand, clearly and elaborately what I just read, but there's just too much red tape in this town. While I am alive and breathing (and I am now 60), nothing will ever get done in BIG JAX. When it does, I will never know.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 28, 2016, 11:56:16 AM
What's the plan to sustain things long term? In my view, the more we continue to spread our public resources across +700 square miles, without dramatically increasing density, the more budgetary problems future generations will face.
Maybe one solution to this problem (and there might be many), is to abolish consolidation, and re-establish smaller but bigger than 1968 city limits and boundaries; then maybe this will put more umph into injecting more capital not only into downtown but those re-established city limits; going from #10 to say #40 or so population wise...who cares? Let's get this city rolling, and then maybe the people will indeed come in (population wise to live and work here), and add to our revenue. It's not good having a top 10 city in population (due to consolidation), but when people get here, it doesn't even live up to it's credentials, hype, or appearance.
We probably could become like Detroit Stephen, yes we could, but only if we want to be. When I was a mid to top level manager, I always taught everyone, and told everyone to never take no for an answer, and that there's always a solution to the problem or problems; and no, I don't have to list what those solutions are. That's what they pay Curry and Company for.......don't they? If our government leaders, and others whether 2nd or 3rd party connection to government want to really see us prosper, they can (the big engine that could?) I think they need to quit piddling, twiddling, and resolving, because not one damn thing are they solving. (did I rhyme that on purpose? Yep, sure did). Just my opinion Stephen.
I'm not going to pretend to have the depth of understanding some of you obviously have of the pension woes here in Jax.
But I have to wonder a little that maybe Sam Mousa is using the pension as a 'straw man' argument against any meaningful progress or investment in downtown by the city.
That is really a ludicrous statement to make when Mayor Curry and Mayor Browns former administration have ponied up about $100 million for the stadium in the last 24 months. ???
If these guys running the show in this town would just step aside for some new blood and new ideas we would all be much better off.
Same old crap, nothing changes, no money in the coffers. Except when needed for kissing the NFL's ass.
Quote from: stephendare on January 29, 2016, 03:56:36 PM
Quote from: heights unknown on January 29, 2016, 03:31:23 PM
We probably could become like Detroit Stephen, yes we could, but only if we want to be. When I was a mid to top level manager, I always taught everyone, and told everyone to never take no for an answer, and that there's always a solution to the problem or problems; and no, I don't have to list what those solutions are. That's what they pay Curry and Company for.......don't they? If our government leaders, and others whether 2nd or 3rd party connection to government want to really see us prosper, they can (the big engine that could?) I think they need to quit piddling, twiddling, and resolving, because not one damn thing are they solving. (did I rhyme that on purpose? Yep, sure did). Just my opinion Stephen.
Just asking. But according to your prescription, wouldn't the same be true for figuring out how to make consolidation work?
It wasn't a prescription it was a recommendation; in all due respect, again, it is not my job to fix what's wrong. As a consumer, citizen, etc., it is my job to let them know when I think it's wrong (along with others who feel the same), voice my opinion and displeasure, and tell them and hope that it gets fixed. No, I am not a whiner, but all of this type behavior has been going on for much too long. Don't you think Stephen (in all due respect).
Quote from: marksjax on January 31, 2016, 04:21:41 PM
I'm not going to pretend to have the depth of understanding some of you obviously have of the pension woes here in Jax.
But I have to wonder a little that maybe Sam Mousa is using the pension as a 'straw man' argument against any meaningful progress or investment in downtown by the city.
That is really a ludicrous statement to make when Mayor Curry and Mayor Browns former administration have ponied up about $100 million for the stadium in the last 24 months. ???
If these guys running the show in this town would just step aside for some new blood and new ideas we would all be much better off.
Same old crap, nothing changes, no money in the coffers. Except when needed for kissing the NFL's ass.
And WALLA.....THIS is what I was talking about and saying as well; didn't say it in the same way or words that you did, but what I said, means the same thing that you just said, mainly...THEY PIDDLE, TWIDDLE, AND RESOLVE, NOT ONE DAMN THING DO THEY SOLVE. And...it is not our job to fix these things whether we understand the whole process of it or not; they are getting paid DECENT BUCKS to make the BIG BUCKS decisions in running the city. If they can't do that, then STEP ASIDE AND LET SOMEONE ELSE DO IT. Capish?
It's interesting that even when we've had three mayors in a row who were political neophytes with no prior government experience, people still think the solution to our problems is getting "new blood". No, what we need are people who know what the hell they're doing.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 01, 2016, 09:20:00 AM
It's interesting that even when we've had three mayors in a row who were political neophytes with no prior government experience, people still think the solution to our problems is getting "new blood". No, what we need are people who know what the hell they're doing.
They may never have held an elected office here, but none of them were what I would call political neophytes prior to being elected Mayor.
Frankly, I fear that we have been getting people that "know what the hell they are doing". It is more a matter that what they are doing is not in the best interest of the City as a whole but rather what is best for the political, moneyed power base.
Quote from: strider on February 01, 2016, 10:48:49 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on February 01, 2016, 09:20:00 AM
It's interesting that even when we've had three mayors in a row who were political neophytes with no prior government experience, people still think the solution to our problems is getting "new blood". No, what we need are people who know what the hell they're doing.
They may never have held an elected office here, but none of them were what I would call political neophytes prior to being elected Mayor.
Frankly, I fear that we have been getting people that "know what the hell they are doing", it is more of a matter that what they are doig is not in the best interest of the City as a whole but rather what is best for the political, moneyed power base.
No experience in government=neophyte. And really, the two who had some experience in politics/politicking in general have been a lot better off than the guy who had none. I doubt anybody, let alone the "political, moneyed power base" would seriously argue that he knew what he was doing.
Of course experience in government doesn't necessarily mean a person will make a good mayor. We've had plenty of people with a lot of experience who were backward, corrupt, mediocre, or just not cut out for a higher level. But this idea that what we need are more people who've never done anything before is naive.
Strider nailed it Tacachele. That is exactly what I meant by new blood. The Curry admin is reboot of the Delaney admin of 20 years ago.
Until the real power brokers give up their stranglehold on the city nothing changes except the mayors name.
I won't name the handful of wealthy guys that pick our mayors for us but most on this board will know who they are. Their interests come first as always.
This is the new version of the same theme: The 'good old boy network' runs this town.
I'm just saying that the status quo is not working anymore.
Quote from: marksjax on February 01, 2016, 11:17:21 AM
The Curry admin is reboot of the Delaney admin of 20 years ago.
:o **munching popcorn** 8)
Think Tommy is interested in returning?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on February 01, 2016, 03:52:37 PM
Think Tommy is interested in returning?
in 4 years, yes. I think he even considered running this past time and going head-to-head against Brown.
Quote from: stephendare on February 01, 2016, 01:29:15 PM
Well I think Mark hits the nail on the head actually.
With one proviso:
The blasted prairie of the downtown and the economic unviability of the core make it clear that the old way of doing things has never worked at all.
But tacachale makes a point: Its a dilemma. The people who actually know how to do things seem to only know one way of doing them.
The neophytes don't even seem to know that much.
It needs crowd sourced pressure, I think.
There isn't a direct correlation between being "old blood" or "new blood" and knowing what the hell you're doing in properly managing a city. In fact, being "new blood" doesn't even have anything to do with whether they stand up against the "power brokers", most of whom support downtown development anyway. It's one of those things that sounds appealing, but doesn't hold up.
2011 is a case in point. We had Alvin Brown, who was "new blood" of the kind we're talking about; Mike Hogan, who had a lot of government experience but seemed to be punching above his weight and was disliked by many of the supposed "power elite"; and then Audrey Moran and Rick Mullaney, who had both experience and sensible ideas. We'd be in a much different place currently if either of them had been elected.
Not all neophytes and up being bad leaders - everyone starts somewhere - but counting on rookies means a lot of rookie mistakes. And in recent experience, when these dudes do buck the "power brokers", it's not on stuff like making Downtown better, which, again, the "power brokers" typically support. It's by doing things like opposing the HRO.
How about instead of 'new blood' we call it: 'non beholding to special interests, visionary, and most of all a real Leader'?
Not someone who is complacent to go along/get along or grooming themselves for their next rung on the elected or appointed political office ladder.
The 'old courthouse' nearly four years vacant and still no plans for it. That is one example. Why not a casino? You want a draw for downtown well there you go. A Hard Rock Hotel/Casino. The leaders in Jax would never even think of that, much less do it. (The repubs in Tall run the state so they could approve casinos quite easily if they wanted to).
Bottom line, we don't have anyone that thinks big, in my opinion.
Quote from: marksjax on February 02, 2016, 04:03:33 PM
How about instead of 'new blood' we call it: 'non beholding to special interests, visionary, and most of all a real Leader'?
Not someone who is complacent to go along/get along or grooming themselves for their next rung on the elected or appointed political office ladder.
The 'old courthouse' nearly four years vacant and still no plans for it. That is one example. Why not a casino? You want a draw for downtown well there you go. A Hard Rock Hotel/Casino. The leaders in Jax would never even think of that, much less do it. (The repubs in Tall run the state so they could approve casinos quite easily if they wanted to).
Bottom line, we don't have anyone that thinks big, in my opinion.
I agree, except the casino part. Term limited mayor is a real downside too. Hard to implement a broad vision in 8 years, when it takes a couple of years just to get your people in place and learn the ropes. Plus you have to campaign again in the middle of that 8 years.
Yeah no need to get excited that anything will change. I'm a realist.
It was de ja vu watching the new mayor next to the new sheriff talking about the crime here.
I do recall Peyton and Rutherford doing the same thing ten years ago.
Why have a mayor really? Tradition I guess. A city manager would do.
Quote from: vicupstate on February 02, 2016, 04:39:38 PM
Quote from: marksjax on February 02, 2016, 04:03:33 PM
How about instead of 'new blood' we call it: 'non beholding to special interests, visionary, and most of all a real Leader'?
Not someone who is complacent to go along/get along or grooming themselves for their next rung on the elected or appointed political office ladder.
The 'old courthouse' nearly four years vacant and still no plans for it. That is one example. Why not a casino? You want a draw for downtown well there you go. A Hard Rock Hotel/Casino. The leaders in Jax would never even think of that, much less do it. (The repubs in Tall run the state so they could approve casinos quite easily if they wanted to).
Bottom line, we don't have anyone that thinks big, in my opinion.
I agree, except the casino part. Term limited mayor is a real downside too. Hard to implement a broad vision in 8 years, when it takes a couple of years just to get your people in place and learn the ropes. Plus you have to campaign again in the middle of that 8 years.
You're right, the term limits mean we hit the restart button every 8 years at least, often replaced "new blood" who have to spend time learning the ropes (hopefully). It leaves the institutional knowledge in the hands of the lobbyists and "power brokers".
Oh, they are trying to fix that:
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=546972
Quote from: marksjax on February 01, 2016, 11:17:21 AM
Strider nailed it Tacachele. That is exactly what I meant by new blood. The Curry admin is reboot of the Delaney admin of 20 years ago.
Until the real power brokers give up their stranglehold on the city nothing changes except the mayors name.
I won't name the handful of wealthy guys that pick our mayors for us but most on this board will know who they are. Their interests come first as always.
This is the new version of the same theme: The 'good old boy network' runs this town.
I'm just saying that the status quo is not working anymore.
+1
I still believe one issue is tax dollars available to think big. Compared to other cities the amount of tax dollars for the investment type spending talked about is not available. I think I saw a link on a JAX site recently that listed Jacksonville as the no. 2 LEAST taxed city in the US. If we have no resources we cannot think big.
^ and that sadly may not change under this mayor. Like his predecessor, he seems really worried about the perception of raising taxes. Maybe that's why he's come up with a weak proposal to extend the BJP sales tax to pay for the unfunded pension liability.
Thankfully, the idea of avoiding a voter referendum and approving the extension through a super majority vote of Council was a non-starter with the Legislature. I have serious doubt that the voters will approve the proposal, which may force Curry to man up and actually propose a real tax increase to fund the pension.
QuoteMaybe that's why he's come up with a weak proposal to extend the BJP sales tax to pay for the unfunded pension liability.
Hmmmmmm......but raiding the City's Utility, possibly causing a halt to future financing of major infrastructure projects, which was Brown's strategy.....was the only answer? Brown never thought of using the BJP half cent tax and just extending a tax that passed by a slim margin, so raising taxes would have been a better idea?
Extension of the tax is a far better solution. If more taxes are needed, sales is the best option, everyone uses the JSO and JFRD services, not just the poor or rich folks, everyone. Add more taxes collected for the Carrie Underwood concerts, people will go to see her scream into a microphone, so raise the taxes collected for consumption of services.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 02, 2016, 11:28:17 PM
QuoteMaybe that's why he's come up with a weak proposal to extend the BJP sales tax to pay for the unfunded pension liability.
Hmmmmmm......but raiding the City's Utility, possibly causing a halt to future financing of major infrastructure projects, which was Brown's strategy.....was the only answer? Brown never thought of using the BJP half cent tax and just extending a tax that passed by a slim margin, so raising taxes would have been a better idea?
Extension of the tax is a far better solution. If more taxes are needed, sales is the best option, everyone uses the JSO and JFRD services, not just the poor or rich folks, everyone. Add more taxes collected for the Carrie Underwood concerts, people will go to see her scream into a microphone, so raise the taxes collected for consumption of services.
Those that got the holiday (property taxpayers) should be the ones to pay for the unearned privilege of catching a break earlier. Plus the sales tax is spoke for for many years yet.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 02, 2016, 10:52:38 PM
^ and that sadly may not change under this mayor. Like his predecessor, he seems really worried about the perception of raising taxes. Maybe that's why he's come up with a weak proposal to extend the BJP sales tax to pay for the unfunded pension liability.
Thankfully, the idea of avoiding a voter referendum and approving the extension through a super majority vote of Council was a non-starter with the Legislature. I have serious doubt that the voters will approve the proposal, which may force Curry to man up and actually propose a real tax increase to fund the pension.
Hmmmmm. I doubt very much he's worried about the
perception. No, I think he's worried about the problems associated with the
reality of raising taxes. He knows most folks are convinced there are enough taxes already collected, period. Some seem to start from a presumption there
aren't enough taxes collected. More and more people are starting to figure out these first responders (and city and county and state and federal employees as a whole) have some incredibly sweet benefit packages that far exceed those available to most regular taxpayers. That math simply doesn't work; a correction is definitely coming.
Some study saying Jax is the 2nd least taxed city in the nation? I'd love to see that study. Less than Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio? Tampa, Orlando and Miami? Okay. I'm not sure about that study at all but if it is, the lesson locally is not to seek more taxes but to stop over-promising on these benefit packages.
The sales tax is a pretty innovative solution to the pension issue, actually. Although it's not an extension, it's a new tax. Taxpayers won't feel the hit, since it's just replacing the sunsetting BJP tax, and future mayors and councils won't be able to mess with it as they can with a property tax. Plus, the property tax option is still a fallback if it doesn't come together. This is the kind of thinking we need more of out of our mayors.
Here is the lowest taxes list: Jax is 3rd (Tampa #2)
https://smartasset.com/taxes/lowest-taxes-in-america (https://smartasset.com/taxes/lowest-taxes-in-america)
QuoteSome study saying Jax is the 2nd least taxed city in the nation? I'd love to see that study.
I'd like to see it too, and wonder if it includes all taxes as a composite. If it includes state and local taxes, it is not hard to believe at all.
With no income tax, any city in FL starts out with an advantage over most from the gate. Property tax wise, JAX is very low compared to the other major cities. Also the property tax rate was cut eight years in a row under Delaney. Also, there is the 50,000 Homestead exemption too., and in a city will low values compared to much of the rest of the state. Food is exempt from sales taxes as well, which is not universal either.
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2016, 10:32:27 AM
Quote from: RattlerGator on February 03, 2016, 08:38:34 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 02, 2016, 10:52:38 PM
^ and that sadly may not change under this mayor. Like his predecessor, he seems really worried about the perception of raising taxes. Maybe that's why he's come up with a weak proposal to extend the BJP sales tax to pay for the unfunded pension liability.
Thankfully, the idea of avoiding a voter referendum and approving the extension through a super majority vote of Council was a non-starter with the Legislature. I have serious doubt that the voters will approve the proposal, which may force Curry to man up and actually propose a real tax increase to fund the pension.
Hmmmmm. I doubt very much he's worried about the perception. No, I think he's worried about the problems associated with the reality of raising taxes. He knows most folks are convinced there are enough taxes already collected, period. Some seem to start from a presumption there aren't enough taxes collected. More and more people are starting to figure out these first responders (and city and county and state and federal employees as a whole) have some incredibly sweet benefit packages that far exceed those available to most regular taxpayers. That math simply doesn't work; a correction is definitely coming.
Some study saying Jax is the 2nd least taxed city in the nation? I'd love to see that study. Less than Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio? Tampa, Orlando and Miami? Okay. I'm not sure about that study at all but if it is, the lesson locally is not to seek more taxes but to stop over-promising on these benefit packages.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on February 03, 2016, 10:08:14 AM
Here is the lowest taxes list: Jax is 3rd (Tampa #2)
https://smartasset.com/taxes/lowest-taxes-in-america (https://smartasset.com/taxes/lowest-taxes-in-america)
hmm. turns out you don't know what your are talking about again, eh? Just restating an opinion someone told you to have.
You do know that there's something called the google and you can look up things first before you make these definitive statements about places where you don't live, right?
hmmmm.....
I hate to poke holes in the study, but it seems kind of skewed....
QuoteFor every city in our study, we projected a tax bill for a hypothetical tax payer earning $45,000 a year (the median U.S. income for full-time, year round workers), who owns a home worth $270,000 (the average home value for major cities).
I don't know many who make $45k a year that can afford the mortgage on a $270k home. Just sayin'.
https://www.zillow.com/mortgage-calculator/house-affordability/
Seems fishy to me. With only a monthly debt payments of $250 a site that WANTS you to afford a house says you can only afford $170k. And that's with a $20k down payment.
I'm not saying that we're not one of the lowest taxed cities in America; I haven't paid taxes in many others, but I have an idea what my family pays in SC and it's about 3.5x what I pay here.
My brother and I each own a home. My assessed rate plummeted and I'm paying right at $600/year in property tax after deduction. He lives near Sumter, SC and his home is valued about 2x what mine is and he pays nearly $3k a year in property tax alone. He has to pay a tangible tax on his vehicles that exceeds what I pay in property tax. Add in the state income tax, and there's absolutely no comparison.
Because of my job, I bid on a lot of the Public buildings getting built around the country, and there's also no comparison to the (aesthetic) quality of the public buildings, schools and universities that I've bid in SC, VA, MA, hell, even TX compared to what we have here. They are light-years ahead of Florida schools in design, amenities and quality.
So based on what I see and what I know for a fact, I would be all for a substantial millage rate increase in our city to fund the basic functions of the government to free up other money to use for QoL expenditure. Until someone stands up in the mayors office and bites the bullet, we're going to continue chasing unfundable pipe dreams.
Quote from: stephendare on February 03, 2016, 12:38:39 PM
Interesting, but Im missing how this affects taxation calculations?
Because they're using a Property Tax $$$ that's unrealistic and likely isn't being paid by the majority of the median group used in the study.
I'm not disagreeing that we're the 2nd lowest or the 3rd lowest or anywhere else near the bottom of the barrel, only that the numbers they used to get there seem a bit skewed.
I did already google this, to no avail, but I'd be interested in seeing city budgets relative to size and populations across the country. I'm guessing we'd by pretty far down the list.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 03, 2016, 01:52:44 PM
I did already google this, to no avail, but I'd be interested in seeing city budgets relative to size and populations across the country. I'm guessing we'd by pretty far down the list.
Check it out before you wreck it out:
https://ballotpedia.org/Analysis_of_spending_in_America's_largest_cities (https://ballotpedia.org/Analysis_of_spending_in_America's_largest_cities)
There is a lot of interesting data on the page, and they have links (like wikipedia) to all their sources. For JAX, at least, they are using data from COJ, so seems pretty legit. Looks like JAX is pretty low on the list of amount spent per capita. I would assume the amount spent tracks somewhat close (or proportionately) to the tax rate, at least in places without a lot of tourism revenue, for example.